I posted this on the FF thread but its huge so i started this one to let everyone know:
There will be a name change and a face lift coming to the game, after some events this morning i talked with a couple friends that are lawyers and they say it should be done, that the map may not be allowed on the blizzard server for copyright reasons. even the contest that I am holding could be seen as an infringement on Square Enix copyright and should probably be taken down, if not Square Enix would have the right to sew me, Curse and anyone who reproduced copyright material (ie. anyone who participated in the contest.) Due to these reasons i do not want to get anyone in trouble.
I thought that using the name would be not problem seeing how in the past Final fantasy was always reproduced into a blizzard game somehow. But this morning my videos of the game where taken down by Vemio (if you look at the front page the videos are inactive) Someone from Square Enix had requested to Vimeo that the videos be taken down, and they did to avoid legal action. they even added a clause in their video uploading screen to cover these things from hence fourth. So like i said because of these events the game has to be changed and needs a face lift. the menus will stay the same but things will be re-worded and pictures will be changed.
The lawyers however said i can indeed say it is a final fantasy - type map =)
the change will happen over the next couple days. the systems will be the same just with a face life and name changes. more news to come.
I posted this on the FF thread but its huge so i started this one to let everyone know:
There will be a name change and a face lift coming to the game, after some events this morning i talked with a couple friends that are lawyers and they say it should be done, that the map may not be allowed on the blizzard server for copyright reasons. even the contest that I am holding could be seen as an infringement on Square Enix copyright and should probably be taken down, if not Square Enix would have the right to sew me, Curse and anyone who reproduced copyright material (ie. anyone who participated in the contest.) Due to these reasons i do not want to get anyone in trouble.
I thought that using the name would be not problem seeing how in the past Final fantasy was always reproduced into a blizzard game somehow. But this morning my videos of the game where taken down by Vemio (if you look at the front page the videos are inactive) Someone from Square Enix had requested to Vimeo that the videos be taken down, and they did to avoid legal action. they even added a clause in their video uploading screen to cover these things from hence fourth. So like i said because of these events the game has to be changed and needs a face lift. the menus will stay the same but things will be re-worded and pictures will be changed.
The lawyers however said i can indeed say it is a final fantasy - type map =)
the change will happen over the next couple days. the systems will be the same just with a face life and name changes. more news to come.
Lol ridiculous... you made a map which will give people like me who never played FF a reason to look into it.
As someone who officially dislikes most copycat mods, I still think this is complete bs. You're using their idea and art sure, but it's not for profit. This wouldn't even be a problem too if Blizzard didn't have complete arbitrary discretion to censor maps.
Oh well, your mod can only get better from this change. Original ideas open up so many more creative opportunities.
Putting aside the legal issues, I would really prefer if it kept the gameplay and ditched the franchise entirely. I beat FF13 already and don't feel a need to play it again. I think it would have more mass appeal in general if it were a really good original game rather than a straight up remake, even with straight up SC2 visuals.
highly unlikely they will sue you. However Square Enix are known to reign in anyone who tries to reproduce their IP. A few years back, a couple of people tried to create a 3d remake of chrono trigger. SE filed a C&D against them, and they had to shut down. This wasn't just one instance, this happened to another team trying a similar project.
If you're trying to reproduce their games, they will definitely hunt you down and slap you with a C&D. However if you're creating something original using the final fantasy property, chances are you'll be okay. I guess you could always argue that you're promoting their product, not so sure how that will hold up in court.
lol I really don't understand why... it just draws publicity to their games and gives them more profit...
It's not good for any company to allow the public to think fan based game is representation of the real product. It is because a lot of fan based games include features the real product does not have and majority fan based games gives a bad impression of the real product (face it a lot of fan games suck).
This means:
Bad Fan game = bad impression
Fan game Remake = copy + additional feature
Great fan game = additional feature, more expectation from the real product (financial feasibility cannot be met to compensate the expectation)
Square/Enix has always disapproved fan-based games and its their stance on.
Like it or not, intellectual property is a property. If you are making a map that resembles Final Fantasy to a high degree, you are "stealing" their property (non-profit map or not). So at the end of the day it is SquareE's decision whether they will allow you to use their materials or not (and they have every right to do so).
eh, I see where you're coming from. Maybe it's because I'm considering my view too much:
- If somebody is making a fan based game, then the original must have been worth it for somebody to use their free time to make it
- If the fan game sucks, then the people who made it probably just weren't the best, I wouldn't look down upon the original game
- If it's good, it might hype me up a bit for the game, but I don't see that as a bad thing. If I buy it and am slightly disappointed, I wouldn't return it and they still get my money
I see what you mean, that's just how I would think. Granted, after working in retail for so long I know that nearly no day to day customer shares my views.
I think zifoon is paraphrasing very well some of the general arguments for intellectual property protection (and the ones that form the basis for current intellectual property laws). I do think, though, that the people who are saying, "it just draws more attention to FF13," are making a good point as well, and it is interesting to note that societies in the past have successfully economized cultural capital on almost the sole basis of copying and duplication alone (be it as either homage or satire). Looking at the so-called "Eastern" cultural and literary traditions prior to the 20th century is in fact a very good example of this.
So, I respect Square Enix's right to their intellectual property and the argument zifoon makes for it (which also happens to be the side the law agrees with), but I also agree that, from an ethical standpoint, there is nothing that can be considered "stealing" about this project in the sense that (1) as zifoon said, a bad fan remake is often an amateur attempt and anyone who knows the game would not even consider it as resembling the original and (2) a good fan remake, such as this one, is something that players will appreciate as a wonderful creation of Team Pandora, yet at the same time also 100% a tribute to the original masterpiece. And yes, you can make zifoon's argument that this may out-do the original product and make for greater expectations from Square Enix, but let's be serious: in a genre (referring to video games as a whole) where 95% of the content already consists of third rate knock-offs or is created as a supplement to the latest superhero film... within such a genre, would a great remake really be such a bad thing?
Anyway, I'm with @Zek23: Go I've already watched someone play through most of FF13, and if I play it myself I'd rather play the PS3 game, assuming that I'm not going to want to play through both of them (which I know some people are planning to do). But if you guys make this project something like FF13 (and it's already looking really good already), hell yes I'm going to play it. So this may not work out so badly for you guys in the end. :)
note: Looks like Atl0s has already responded since I started writing this and said pretty much the same thing. So consider his the TLDR for mine :)
eh, I see where you're coming from.Maybe it's because I'm considering my view too much:
- If somebody is making a fan based game, then the original must have been worth it for somebody to use their free time to make it
- If the fan game sucks, then the people who made it probably just weren't the best, I wouldn't look down upon the original game
- If it's good, it might hype me up a bit for the game, but I don't see that as a bad thing.If I buy it and am slightly disappointed, I wouldn't return it and they still get my money
I see what you mean, that's just how I would think.Granted, after working in retail for so long I know that nearly no day to day customer shares my views.
"If somebody is making a fan based game, then the original must have been worth it for somebody to use their free time to make it"
That's true, why else?
"If the fan game sucks, then the people who made it probably just weren't the best, I wouldn't look down upon the original game"
"I" wouldn't either, If there was a really bad FF7 remake I wouldn't not (even for a second) think Final Fantasy is crappy. The problem is the word, "I". Not every person who played the fan game would have had chance to played the original game (you would be "un"pleasantly surprised how many). If the fan game gave a bad impression, people who have not played the original will most likely not buy the original game which is loss of profit for the game company. That is to say the current fan base will likely to stay fervent but it will have significant impact on the growth of the fan base (growth of potential buyers). Another fact to consider is that fan games are giving players chance to play a game that is not free. If it's a complete remake, say Chrono Trigger in 3D (Google it) they will shut it down immediately since it gives the people an opportunity to play Chrono Trigger for free. Yes, one could argue fan games could be a form of advertising, however "advertisement" a company requires is a controlled format not a random one based on "a" fan's ability to create a good game.
"If it's good, it might hype me up a bit for the game, but I don't see that as a bad thing.If I buy it and am slightly disappointed, I wouldn't return it and they still get my money "
As I said previously the loss of profit comes from limiting potential buyers.
It all comes down to ownership. Who owns the fan game? The company owns the characters, plot, themes and everything else. You are "stealing" in the most literal form, you are taking these property without a license (permission).
If I take someone's book and write 5 pages after it and change the ending and write at the end "This is a fan book" the original work is by "blah", is that not stealing someone's work?
Or even rewrite the book differently based on the same characters and concept?
How does a book differ from a video game in this case? Who knows if this book gains popularity through the fan book with the alternative ending or the rewite, only vivid point here is that the person who wrote the fan book stole from the original author and the author has no controlled advertising (whether it will have a good or bad effect) from the fan books.
Why the fk do we even have such laws if they always twists and knots in places it shouldn't be?
I mean, plagiarism (stealing AND claiming ownership) is one thing but things like intellectual properties just makes it worser...
I mean, if someone gets a IP of water, air, or even gravity (laws like these weren't created in the past but be creative) it would have quite the bad repercussions.
Regardless, total balance in order and freedom has to be maintained, and in my opinion, the US government and the rest of the world isn't following such guideline, but falling high over heel in their greed. Note the imperialism from the existence of a powerful country, and the side effects of having a efficient technology. Nope, there doesn't seem to be any balance in the things to come... Unless you mean a ice age or something the planet is doing to "wipe" us off the earth that is (lol).
Oh yes, people who plays the fan based game first, NEVER plays the original unless decided to by intervention of another third party.
In fact, you wouldn't even bother to find fan based games unless you've used sources and stumble onto them, or have a friend tell you about it.
But really, this seems to be turning into some kind of debate, and unless your government (I'm canadian) tears it down and make a new one, there isn't much you can do about it. Being a Canadian, I've read that they are reconsidering fixing up the copyright law so it's more fair to all (since it's year and years old), and you don't see the stupid IP things, just plain and simple copyright that doesn't seem to state itself as biased.
"If somebody is making a fan based game, then the original must have been worth it for somebody to use their free time to make it"
That's true, why else?
"If the fan game sucks, then the people who made it probably just weren't the best, I wouldn't look down upon the original game"
"I" wouldn't either, If there was a really bad FF7 remake I wouldn't not (even for a second) think Final Fantasy is crappy. The problem is the word, "I". Not every person who played the fan game would have had chance to played the original game (you would be "un"pleasantly surprised how many). If the fan game gave a bad impression, people who have not played the original will most likely not buy the original game which is loss of profit for the game company. That is to say the current fan base will likely to stay fervent but it will have significant impact on the growth of the fan base (growth of potential buyers). Another fact to consider is that fan games are giving players chance to play a game that is not free. If it's a complete remake, say Chrono Trigger in 3D (Google it) they will shut it down immediately since it gives the people to play Chrono Trigger for free. Yes, one could argue fan games could be a form of advertising, however advertising a company requires is a controlled format not a random one based on "a" fan's ability to create a good game.
"If it's good, it might hype me up a bit for the game, but I don't see that as a bad thing.If I buy it and am slightly disappointed, I wouldn't return it and they still get my money "
As I said previously the loss of profit comes from limiting potential buyers.
It all comes down to ownership. Who owns the fan game? The company owns the characters, plot, themes and everything else. You are "stealing" in the most literal form, you are taking these property without a license (permission).
If I take someone's book and write 5 pages after it and change the ending and write at the end "This is a fan book" the original work is by "blah", is that not stealing someone's work?
Or even rewrite the book differently based on the same characters and concept?
How does a book differ from a video game in this case? Who knows if this book gains popularity through the fan book with the alternative ending or the rewite, only vivid point here is that the person who wrote the fan book stole from the original author and the author has no controlled advertising (whether it will have a good or bad effect) from the fan books.
Dude… IF its not commercial then you are fine! This is for public use… Models have been made before in games. “ You are not claiming this to make money. “ You are aloud to “give” a friend a CD.
Not true, though a judge may take the profit motive or lack thereof into account. In L.A. Times v. Free Republic, the court found that the noncommercial use of L.A. Times content by the Free Republic Web site was in fact not fair use, since it allowed the public to obtain material at no cost that they would otherwise pay for.
Noncommercial use is invariably fair-use?
Not true, though a judge may take the profit motive or lack thereof into account. In L.A. Times v. Free Republic, the court found that the noncommercial use of L.A. Times content by the Free Republic Web site was in fact not fair use, since it allowed the public to obtain material at no cost that they would otherwise pay for.
-completely uncited quote from wikipedia
I found it on the internet so it must be fact :p
It must be :P
Na you are right, the rationale behind it is because though the person may not be getting any profit from it, an innocent bystander is losing profit due to the person's actions.
I posted this on the FF thread but its huge so i started this one to let everyone know:
There will be a name change and a face lift coming to the game, after some events this morning i talked with a couple friends that are lawyers and they say it should be done, that the map may not be allowed on the blizzard server for copyright reasons. even the contest that I am holding could be seen as an infringement on Square Enix copyright and should probably be taken down, if not Square Enix would have the right to sew me, Curse and anyone who reproduced copyright material (ie. anyone who participated in the contest.) Due to these reasons i do not want to get anyone in trouble.
I thought that using the name would be not problem seeing how in the past Final fantasy was always reproduced into a blizzard game somehow. But this morning my videos of the game where taken down by Vemio (if you look at the front page the videos are inactive) Someone from Square Enix had requested to Vimeo that the videos be taken down, and they did to avoid legal action. they even added a clause in their video uploading screen to cover these things from hence fourth. So like i said because of these events the game has to be changed and needs a face lift. the menus will stay the same but things will be re-worded and pictures will be changed.
The lawyers however said i can indeed say it is a final fantasy - type map =)
the change will happen over the next couple days. the systems will be the same just with a face life and name changes. more news to come.
Lol ridiculous... you made a map which will give people like me who never played FF a reason to look into it.
@OneTwoSC: Go
good thing i stored pretty much every picture in a constant lol
That sucks :3
As someone who officially dislikes most copycat mods, I still think this is complete bs. You're using their idea and art sure, but it's not for profit. This wouldn't even be a problem too if Blizzard didn't have complete arbitrary discretion to censor maps.
Oh well, your mod can only get better from this change. Original ideas open up so many more creative opportunities.
Lightning goes Thunder.
sad :(
Putting aside the legal issues, I would really prefer if it kept the gameplay and ditched the franchise entirely. I beat FF13 already and don't feel a need to play it again. I think it would have more mass appeal in general if it were a really good original game rather than a straight up remake, even with straight up SC2 visuals.
Thunder sounds too male, I still think we should stick with Storm like I stated on the main thread.
highly unlikely they will sue you. However Square Enix are known to reign in anyone who tries to reproduce their IP. A few years back, a couple of people tried to create a 3d remake of chrono trigger. SE filed a C&D against them, and they had to shut down. This wasn't just one instance, this happened to another team trying a similar project.
If you're trying to reproduce their games, they will definitely hunt you down and slap you with a C&D. However if you're creating something original using the final fantasy property, chances are you'll be okay. I guess you could always argue that you're promoting their product, not so sure how that will hold up in court.
lol I really don't understand why... it just draws publicity to their games and gives them more profit...
It's not good for any company to allow the public to think fan based game is representation of the real product. It is because a lot of fan based games include features the real product does not have and majority fan based games gives a bad impression of the real product (face it a lot of fan games suck).
This means:
Bad Fan game = bad impression
Fan game Remake = copy + additional feature
Great fan game = additional feature, more expectation from the real product (financial feasibility cannot be met to compensate the expectation)
Square/Enix has always disapproved fan-based games and its their stance on.
Like it or not, intellectual property is a property. If you are making a map that resembles Final Fantasy to a high degree, you are "stealing" their property (non-profit map or not). So at the end of the day it is SquareE's decision whether they will allow you to use their materials or not (and they have every right to do so).
@zifoon:
eh, I see where you're coming from. Maybe it's because I'm considering my view too much:
- If somebody is making a fan based game, then the original must have been worth it for somebody to use their free time to make it
- If the fan game sucks, then the people who made it probably just weren't the best, I wouldn't look down upon the original game
- If it's good, it might hype me up a bit for the game, but I don't see that as a bad thing. If I buy it and am slightly disappointed, I wouldn't return it and they still get my money
I see what you mean, that's just how I would think. Granted, after working in retail for so long I know that nearly no day to day customer shares my views.
@zifoon: Go
I think zifoon is paraphrasing very well some of the general arguments for intellectual property protection (and the ones that form the basis for current intellectual property laws). I do think, though, that the people who are saying, "it just draws more attention to FF13," are making a good point as well, and it is interesting to note that societies in the past have successfully economized cultural capital on almost the sole basis of copying and duplication alone (be it as either homage or satire). Looking at the so-called "Eastern" cultural and literary traditions prior to the 20th century is in fact a very good example of this.
So, I respect Square Enix's right to their intellectual property and the argument zifoon makes for it (which also happens to be the side the law agrees with), but I also agree that, from an ethical standpoint, there is nothing that can be considered "stealing" about this project in the sense that (1) as zifoon said, a bad fan remake is often an amateur attempt and anyone who knows the game would not even consider it as resembling the original and (2) a good fan remake, such as this one, is something that players will appreciate as a wonderful creation of Team Pandora, yet at the same time also 100% a tribute to the original masterpiece. And yes, you can make zifoon's argument that this may out-do the original product and make for greater expectations from Square Enix, but let's be serious: in a genre (referring to video games as a whole) where 95% of the content already consists of third rate knock-offs or is created as a supplement to the latest superhero film... within such a genre, would a great remake really be such a bad thing?
Anyway, I'm with @Zek23: Go I've already watched someone play through most of FF13, and if I play it myself I'd rather play the PS3 game, assuming that I'm not going to want to play through both of them (which I know some people are planning to do). But if you guys make this project something like FF13 (and it's already looking really good already), hell yes I'm going to play it. So this may not work out so badly for you guys in the end. :)
note: Looks like Atl0s has already responded since I started writing this and said pretty much the same thing. So consider his the TLDR for mine :)
"If somebody is making a fan based game, then the original must have been worth it for somebody to use their free time to make it"
That's true, why else?
"If the fan game sucks, then the people who made it probably just weren't the best, I wouldn't look down upon the original game"
"I" wouldn't either, If there was a really bad FF7 remake I wouldn't not (even for a second) think Final Fantasy is crappy. The problem is the word, "I". Not every person who played the fan game would have had chance to played the original game (you would be "un"pleasantly surprised how many). If the fan game gave a bad impression, people who have not played the original will most likely not buy the original game which is loss of profit for the game company. That is to say the current fan base will likely to stay fervent but it will have significant impact on the growth of the fan base (growth of potential buyers). Another fact to consider is that fan games are giving players chance to play a game that is not free. If it's a complete remake, say Chrono Trigger in 3D (Google it) they will shut it down immediately since it gives the people an opportunity to play Chrono Trigger for free. Yes, one could argue fan games could be a form of advertising, however "advertisement" a company requires is a controlled format not a random one based on "a" fan's ability to create a good game.
"If it's good, it might hype me up a bit for the game, but I don't see that as a bad thing.If I buy it and am slightly disappointed, I wouldn't return it and they still get my money "
As I said previously the loss of profit comes from limiting potential buyers.
It all comes down to ownership. Who owns the fan game? The company owns the characters, plot, themes and everything else. You are "stealing" in the most literal form, you are taking these property without a license (permission).
If I take someone's book and write 5 pages after it and change the ending and write at the end "This is a fan book" the original work is by "blah", is that not stealing someone's work?
Or even rewrite the book differently based on the same characters and concept?
How does a book differ from a video game in this case? Who knows if this book gains popularity through the fan book with the alternative ending or the rewite, only vivid point here is that the person who wrote the fan book stole from the original author and the author has no controlled advertising (whether it will have a good or bad effect) from the fan books.
Why the fk do we even have such laws if they always twists and knots in places it shouldn't be?
I mean, plagiarism (stealing AND claiming ownership) is one thing but things like intellectual properties just makes it worser...
I mean, if someone gets a IP of water, air, or even gravity (laws like these weren't created in the past but be creative) it would have quite the bad repercussions.
Regardless, total balance in order and freedom has to be maintained, and in my opinion, the US government and the rest of the world isn't following such guideline, but falling high over heel in their greed. Note the imperialism from the existence of a powerful country, and the side effects of having a efficient technology. Nope, there doesn't seem to be any balance in the things to come... Unless you mean a ice age or something the planet is doing to "wipe" us off the earth that is (lol).
Oh yes, people who plays the fan based game first, NEVER plays the original unless decided to by intervention of another third party.
In fact, you wouldn't even bother to find fan based games unless you've used sources and stumble onto them, or have a friend tell you about it.
But really, this seems to be turning into some kind of debate, and unless your government (I'm canadian) tears it down and make a new one, there isn't much you can do about it. Being a Canadian, I've read that they are reconsidering fixing up the copyright law so it's more fair to all (since it's year and years old), and you don't see the stupid IP things, just plain and simple copyright that doesn't seem to state itself as biased.
Questioning, only leads to problems... >_>
Dude… IF its not commercial then you are fine!
This is for public use… Models have been made before in games.
“ You are not claiming this to make money. “ You are aloud to “give” a friend a CD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use
“ I could be completely wrong, but that is what I have always believed “
Noncommercial use is invariably fair-use?
I found it on the internet so it must be fact :p
It must be :P
Na you are right, the rationale behind it is because though the person may not be getting any profit from it, an innocent bystander is losing profit due to the person's actions.