I've worked on soo many maps... I haven't finished ANY of them (;
-How much dedication is needed to finish up a map? What I always get stuck on is the polishing and balancing - the tedious datawork. Some maps do not require this, but many competitive ones do. I know for a fact that a lot of you guys out there have completed maps as such, maps that require loads of tedious datawork. How do you carry on? It bores the hell out of me, so much that I just give up :(
Personally, I don't mind doing data stuff most of the time, but If I'm not feeling it, I usually just buckle down and do it anyways. The biggest hurdle is usually getting myself to start. Once I get going, It's easy to keep going.
It's easy to underestimate the importance of learning to finish. Completing projects is no trivial task, especially once the thrill of the endeavor has faded. Instead of perpetually getting caught up in your next exciting idea and being That Person who doesn't ever finish a project, focus on finishing them, no matter how terrible or pointless they are.
Finish but dont finish... Mini Chop Farms is finished, But it will never come out of beta...
Because I might add something Totally new later, or scrap a large portion and rework it
Keep your projects, but just go back to them as you learn new things and new ideas.
you know what jade, im taking that to heart. I always start things and think "this won't get popular" so i stop psychologically. But I am going to have to finish all of my maps, and i think i will start on that now.
-How much dedication is needed to finish up a map?
Depends on the salary. :D
Joke aside, it mostly depends on how much you think your project/map will succeed I guess...
I have done maps for console games I don't give a damn about, the maps were as boring to play as they were to build. If I hadn't a deadline to meet, I wouldn't have finished any of them. On my free time though, I have always spent a few hours here and there, polishing the result so that I could say to myself "you did good today, it's nice and funny as expected" or something like that I could be proud of. I was very enthusiastic about my Ikari Warriors map until I reached v2: I can't go further into improving/completing the map until I receive feedback, so my dedication has drastically faded over time. It doesn't mean I stop working on it, I'm just not spending as much time on it as I used to when the idea was brand new.
How do you carry on? It bores the hell out of me, so much that I just give up :(
Working for too long on something always has this effect. You either have to learn to work faster (experience helps here, so it doesn't matter if you do tons of shitty maps that you'll never finish, as long as it helps you master the editor a bit better), or as JademusSreg said keep focusing on one task/mod/map until it's completely done. Try not to keep the boring parts for the end, it's probably what kills your motivation. I'm not much of a coder myself, so I basically try to build the gameplay mechanics ASAP while my motivation is at its best. I "give my map a nice look" later, when I'm starting to be less interested in the project, to be sure I'll enjoy working on it anyway.
5 years with more than 5 map makers? Sounds a little bit overestimated for me. SC2 is now 1,5 years old and I have a huge project that I don't want to work at all the day - I have sometimes pauses about more than 3 months, just for regeneration or because I found another thing or startet a side project just for fun.
But 5 years sounds too much. I can't even imagine what kind of project could need that amount of time.
I can confirm that it's easier to return to project if you managed to create something playable while inspired.
For me, wanting 1st public version of map to be extremely polished and perfect in all ways turned crafting map from pleasure into burden. Current project is alive because:
I really want to play what I'm making;
Updating something released gives a better feeling that endlessly iterating on map which no-one ever saw;
Player feedback is really good at reviving faded interest;
I'm periodically taking breaks and then return to project feeling fresh and re-inspired to make what I have more awesome.
If you are going to take a break, don't forget to comment your code. Will save you alot of mental energy later.
I get what you guys mean about experience making the process easier. In my case, I don't think it does. I cannot find any loopholes or 'cheats' in the data-editor that makes the process of balancing, adding values and creating various objects easier.
But I definetely agree that it would be smart to start out small - getting it playable - and build on to your map as time progress.
It might be just me, but I generally find that the crappy parts are done really quickly once I actually stop procrastinating (or, in my defense, finally actually have time to map)? I can imagine data editing has more drone-work than terraining, but if you really want to see your map out there I generally find myself wrestling through whatever's bad.
That said, I do always terrain and partner with seperate coders/triggerers and data editors, so I never have to do something I'm really not fussed with at all.
It might be just me, but I generally find that the crappy parts are done really quickly once I actually stop procrastinating (or, in my defense, finally actually have time to map)? I can imagine data editing has more drone-work than terraining, but if you really want to see your map out there I generally find myself wrestling through whatever's bad.
That said, I do always terrain and partner with seperate coders/triggerers and data editors, so I never have to do something I'm really not fussed with at all.
There is no boreing part to terraining :D ... Except when your not inspired to do your project...
Terrain and data are the deal breakers for me :/ I noticed I tend to bail if I get stuck doing either of those. I guess map making really needs a team.
Try breaking up your project into playable sections. If it's a DOTA, get your towers to spawn one type of creep and give yourself just a stock hero. If it's an RPG finish the basic starter area and drop in a stock hero to experience it from the view of "actual" gameplay, without any actual play. When you can click "Test Map" and know that you're getting to playtest your creation, it helps break up the monotony of data balancing and making sure it looks right on paper.
If the map's unbalanced, it'll feel unbalanced. Is there an obvious "best way"? It's probably unbalanced if you don't have to think.
What works best for me, is getting up a couple of hours before I will ever have to do anything, and putting a couple of hours in. Silence and coffee. Usually, if I have to grind something out, like 10 new heroes, 30 new items, ect; I do it at night, after work, when my brain isn't working. Turn on the t.v. and take 3 times the time it should to complete something. Progress is progress though.
As said above, if you can stick with it until it is playable, balance isn't too difficult. People will play it and balance it for you.
I worked on Custom Hero Arena for WC3 for 3 years, on and off. It had 3 "final" points. But something always came up and I added a lot, changed a lot, remade the entire game from scratch at one point. For about a year though, it was averaging 5000 hours a day play time, and it was the players who balanced it; which made it more popular. A perpetual scheme.
Random people thinking you for your map will give you a lot of juice to keep working.
There is no boreing part to terraining :D ... Except when your not inspired to do your project...
Well, it depends on what you like doing I suppose, but I find the very basics of any competitive map to be SUCH a drudge. The part where you need to balance everything. You need to basically terrain the lay-out using only cliffs and copy/paste whatever you can, while keeping in mind that you shouldn't put high-ground areas below a lane/playable area as to not block out the vision in the standard SC2 cam. I find this very boring; it's really just fiddling with cliffs until the basic lay-out is perfect, without any real creativity or idea-spawning coming into play. I guess if you were a number/math/measuring freak you'd like this, but the problem in the SC2 editor is that these people are the data editors and triggerers.
If you don't like any part of mapmaking, plan your map to avoid these parts.
For example, I hate creating dialogs, so I made my last map without. Some ppl don't like to use triggers, so they work hard to create everything with data.
If you hate polishing, make everything polished at once. Don't add raw features, add totally completed things which you won't need to return to. If you don't like balancing, create balance system before implementing everything in data.
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I've worked on soo many maps... I haven't finished ANY of them (;
-How much dedication is needed to finish up a map? What I always get stuck on is the polishing and balancing - the tedious datawork. Some maps do not require this, but many competitive ones do. I know for a fact that a lot of you guys out there have completed maps as such, maps that require loads of tedious datawork. How do you carry on? It bores the hell out of me, so much that I just give up :(
@Neonsz: Go
Personally, I don't mind doing data stuff most of the time, but If I'm not feeling it, I usually just buckle down and do it anyways. The biggest hurdle is usually getting myself to start. Once I get going, It's easy to keep going.
It's easy to underestimate the importance of learning to finish. Completing projects is no trivial task, especially once the thrill of the endeavor has faded. Instead of perpetually getting caught up in your next exciting idea and being That Person who doesn't ever finish a project, focus on finishing them, no matter how terrible or pointless they are.
@JademusSreg: Go
OR you can do like me
Finish but dont finish... Mini Chop Farms is finished, But it will never come out of beta... Because I might add something Totally new later, or scrap a large portion and rework it
Keep your projects, but just go back to them as you learn new things and new ideas.
@JademusSreg: Go
you know what jade, im taking that to heart. I always start things and think "this won't get popular" so i stop psychologically. But I am going to have to finish all of my maps, and i think i will start on that now.
Depends on the salary. :D Joke aside, it mostly depends on how much you think your project/map will succeed I guess... I have done maps for console games I don't give a damn about, the maps were as boring to play as they were to build. If I hadn't a deadline to meet, I wouldn't have finished any of them. On my free time though, I have always spent a few hours here and there, polishing the result so that I could say to myself "you did good today, it's nice and funny as expected" or something like that I could be proud of. I was very enthusiastic about my Ikari Warriors map until I reached v2: I can't go further into improving/completing the map until I receive feedback, so my dedication has drastically faded over time. It doesn't mean I stop working on it, I'm just not spending as much time on it as I used to when the idea was brand new.
Working for too long on something always has this effect. You either have to learn to work faster (experience helps here, so it doesn't matter if you do tons of shitty maps that you'll never finish, as long as it helps you master the editor a bit better), or as JademusSreg said keep focusing on one task/mod/map until it's completely done. Try not to keep the boring parts for the end, it's probably what kills your motivation. I'm not much of a coder myself, so I basically try to build the gameplay mechanics ASAP while my motivation is at its best. I "give my map a nice look" later, when I'm starting to be less interested in the project, to be sure I'll enjoy working on it anyway.
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ModeratorsFor a good map 5 years start to finish using a team of 5+ map makers.
Contribute to the wiki (Wiki button at top of page) Considered easy altering of the unit textures?
https://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/resources/tutorials/179654-data-actor-events-message-texture-select-by-id
https://media.forgecdn.net/attachments/187/40/Screenshot2011-04-17_09_16_21.jpg
5 years with more than 5 map makers? Sounds a little bit overestimated for me. SC2 is now 1,5 years old and I have a huge project that I don't want to work at all the day - I have sometimes pauses about more than 3 months, just for regeneration or because I found another thing or startet a side project just for fun.
But 5 years sounds too much. I can't even imagine what kind of project could need that amount of time.
I can confirm that it's easier to return to project if you managed to create something playable while inspired.
For me, wanting 1st public version of map to be extremely polished and perfect in all ways turned crafting map from pleasure into burden. Current project is alive because:
If you are going to take a break, don't forget to comment your code. Will save you alot of mental energy later.
@ZealNaga: Go
I get what you guys mean about experience making the process easier. In my case, I don't think it does. I cannot find any loopholes or 'cheats' in the data-editor that makes the process of balancing, adding values and creating various objects easier.
But I definetely agree that it would be smart to start out small - getting it playable - and build on to your map as time progress.
It might be just me, but I generally find that the crappy parts are done really quickly once I actually stop procrastinating (or, in my defense, finally actually have time to map)? I can imagine data editing has more drone-work than terraining, but if you really want to see your map out there I generally find myself wrestling through whatever's bad.
That said, I do always terrain and partner with seperate coders/triggerers and data editors, so I never have to do something I'm really not fussed with at all.
There is no boreing part to terraining :D ... Except when your not inspired to do your project...
@Taintedwisp: Go
Well, there are boring parts to terraining. Like making custom cliffs and such.
@Nebuli2: Go
huh, I always had fun with that :P
But then again the News can entertain me... doesn't take much.
Terrain and data are the deal breakers for me :/ I noticed I tend to bail if I get stuck doing either of those. I guess map making really needs a team.
@Neonsz: Go
Coffee. You'll finish your map in no time :D
Try breaking up your project into playable sections. If it's a DOTA, get your towers to spawn one type of creep and give yourself just a stock hero. If it's an RPG finish the basic starter area and drop in a stock hero to experience it from the view of "actual" gameplay, without any actual play. When you can click "Test Map" and know that you're getting to playtest your creation, it helps break up the monotony of data balancing and making sure it looks right on paper.
If the map's unbalanced, it'll feel unbalanced. Is there an obvious "best way"? It's probably unbalanced if you don't have to think.
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Curse PremiumWhat works best for me, is getting up a couple of hours before I will ever have to do anything, and putting a couple of hours in. Silence and coffee. Usually, if I have to grind something out, like 10 new heroes, 30 new items, ect; I do it at night, after work, when my brain isn't working. Turn on the t.v. and take 3 times the time it should to complete something. Progress is progress though.
As said above, if you can stick with it until it is playable, balance isn't too difficult. People will play it and balance it for you.
I worked on Custom Hero Arena for WC3 for 3 years, on and off. It had 3 "final" points. But something always came up and I added a lot, changed a lot, remade the entire game from scratch at one point. For about a year though, it was averaging 5000 hours a day play time, and it was the players who balanced it; which made it more popular. A perpetual scheme.
Random people thinking you for your map will give you a lot of juice to keep working.
Skype: [email protected] Current Project: Custom Hero Arena! US: battlenet:://starcraft/map/1/263274 EU: battlenet:://starcraft/map/2/186418
Well, it depends on what you like doing I suppose, but I find the very basics of any competitive map to be SUCH a drudge. The part where you need to balance everything. You need to basically terrain the lay-out using only cliffs and copy/paste whatever you can, while keeping in mind that you shouldn't put high-ground areas below a lane/playable area as to not block out the vision in the standard SC2 cam. I find this very boring; it's really just fiddling with cliffs until the basic lay-out is perfect, without any real creativity or idea-spawning coming into play. I guess if you were a number/math/measuring freak you'd like this, but the problem in the SC2 editor is that these people are the data editors and triggerers.
@Neonsz: Go
If you don't like any part of mapmaking, plan your map to avoid these parts.
For example, I hate creating dialogs, so I made my last map without. Some ppl don't like to use triggers, so they work hard to create everything with data.
If you hate polishing, make everything polished at once. Don't add raw features, add totally completed things which you won't need to return to. If you don't like balancing, create balance system before implementing everything in data.