On sundays mapcraft eiviyn and palls talked a bit about dota and how could you improve it. The topic itself was interesting, but the conversation didnt really get anywhere so I wanted to create a thread of AoS styles and how could we improve it.
1. The style
Generally most dota maps have 3 lines which all spawn same amount of creeps (atleast what people stated on the stream). Its half true, half wrong. Iv seen couple of different styles of terrain in AoS, but the most popular style is of course the 3 line style since Dota popularized it. Is it the best style? no...I have found some maps have equally interesting creep pathing/spawn designs allthough there is nothing wrong with normal dota style.
3 lines. Same spawns on each lines, spawns consists of couple ranged and couple melee units. Lots of places for creeping and hiding.
Tides of blood style (ToB)
Large map with several bases and several spawns. Unit spawns consists of several different type of units (melee, ranged, spell caster). No neutral creeps.
Aeon of 6 gods style
Large map with one major spawn on middle. Several spawning buildings that mainly spawn units that travel to middle. Few lesser spawns in the edges. No neutral creeps.
Goku Style
Small terrain. Clifs near units pathing area. No neutral creeps. Spawns consists of ranged, melee units and occasionally stronger units.
2. The terrain
Some people might have forgotten or havent even experienced different styles of gameplay from dota. The terrain should naturally support the style of play and there has been many maps that have actually different gameplay from dota even though they have similar feeling.
In Aeon of 6G you have massive battle on the middle which gives nice epic feeling when your hero gains power and evolves to being a "god". The terrain in this map is really simple and it fits the map perfectly. You just join in a epic fight and get stronger...it was fun.
In Goku the game is fast paced and you can use terrain to suprise your enemies or to escape. People should think about different possibilities from normal Dota.
Tides of blood use more "passive" approach. where you have many large battles all over the map and you have to destroy several bases (not map to my liking though).
There are several possibilities for terrains. Personally I like Aoen of 6 gods style, where you have one massive spawn on the middle, yet you can also take alternative routes while others battle it out....
3. The Gameplay
This is where new ideas should shine. Iv been wondering quite a lot what could truly make a new and great Dota. While my own AoS makes it more fast paced and removes the creeping, I think there still should be some new mechanics to make it more interesting.
In Aeon of 6 gods you could buy tomes to increase your power and your hero would actually evolve to different unit and gain new skills as you became closer to godhood.
Random weather effects? Capturing zones to gain buffs to your allies? What do you think could work on a new dota map? Should there be Stronger creep spawns periodically?
I had more ideas and more to write, but Ill end this here. Feel free to discuss and add ideas of your own. Im sure I forgot something... :/. I hope I didnt make the post too confusing since many people probly havent played the old wc3 AoS maps...nonetheless discuss!
Ding Ding! we have a winner. Finally someone who isnt a complete...stupid :(.
I guess I shouldnt even post in the thread since the thread was useles to begin with. Saying that something sucks when its getting played over and over again, mean it clearly doesnt suck. I dont know if rodrigo is really serious with his thread...he probly is. Well I dont have anything smart to say, but good post triceron!
TD:s can be fun but only for a while. I really wouldnt bother making one since most likely the replay value is close to 0 (atleast to me). And TDs are mostly time killer for me, nothing I would play like a maniac (Like I played dota in the old days).
But I guess I still would like to see line tower wars or wintermaul wars, they were pretty fun and different even though they got boring after a while too...not to mention it was really harsh depending on your enemies/allies...
I do want other mechanices for the game though. Where you think it restricts freedom I see it gives more posibilities. But im not locked on anything, like the stamina system and experiments on UI, Ill just have to see how it goes...and by the resource control I kinda want force people to engage each other more. Now you can quite easilly just creep away as much as you want...
It doesnt have to be resource control, it could extra spawns too...Im just not sure yet what do I want to add. It could also be something like minor extra heal if you stay in the middle, that would keep the game fast paced since you wouldnt have to return to base (not super fast heal though).
The exp idea could work too I guess, but then again I feel like that might be more forcing people to engage each other than my suggested methods.
edit*
and more than trying to make people engage each other. I want to add "alternative ways" to play the game. Dota has neutral creeps, which my map doesnt have and I dont want to have, so I want to add something different to add replayability, fun factor and tactical factor.
Testing again today at 20.00/8pm +2 GMT, which is 1h 12mins from this post. add burne.478 or pm to join in on EU.
removed stamina system, added some balance (I will make a couple more tweaks before test). The UI also changed half transparent style and inventory back to "normal" place. Tweaked some spells to be more useful
We played this again on mapnight. Some of the new changes not quite working out so Ill just go back to normals style.
I will probly go to normal UI and pan camera further to decrease the not seeing bottom problem...
The stamina system not working too well. I could go back to normal system without stamina, but Ill have to think about this one...
abilities need to be reworked a bit, some spells one shot you, some spells are useless in pvp and thats really not a good thing in my map.
as for removing the jump...thats not gona happen. without it I feel like it would be another AoS among others....and I want this to be something different and it remains to be seen if it will work out or not.
So I guess now ill try to polish the combat a bit and maybe we can test it again next week.
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popularity system sucks!
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On sundays mapcraft eiviyn and palls talked a bit about dota and how could you improve it. The topic itself was interesting, but the conversation didnt really get anywhere so I wanted to create a thread of AoS styles and how could we improve it.
1. The style
Generally most dota maps have 3 lines which all spawn same amount of creeps (atleast what people stated on the stream). Its half true, half wrong. Iv seen couple of different styles of terrain in AoS, but the most popular style is of course the 3 line style since Dota popularized it. Is it the best style? no...I have found some maps have equally interesting creep pathing/spawn designs allthough there is nothing wrong with normal dota style.
I drew a sample picture of dota styles Iv seen.
http://www.sc2mapster.com/media/attachments/19/321/terrainpathingstyles.JPG
Normal dota style
3 lines. Same spawns on each lines, spawns consists of couple ranged and couple melee units. Lots of places for creeping and hiding.
Tides of blood style (ToB)
Large map with several bases and several spawns. Unit spawns consists of several different type of units (melee, ranged, spell caster). No neutral creeps.
Aeon of 6 gods style
Large map with one major spawn on middle. Several spawning buildings that mainly spawn units that travel to middle. Few lesser spawns in the edges. No neutral creeps.
Goku Style
Small terrain. Clifs near units pathing area. No neutral creeps. Spawns consists of ranged, melee units and occasionally stronger units.
2. The terrain
Some people might have forgotten or havent even experienced different styles of gameplay from dota. The terrain should naturally support the style of play and there has been many maps that have actually different gameplay from dota even though they have similar feeling.
In Aeon of 6G you have massive battle on the middle which gives nice epic feeling when your hero gains power and evolves to being a "god". The terrain in this map is really simple and it fits the map perfectly. You just join in a epic fight and get stronger...it was fun.
In Goku the game is fast paced and you can use terrain to suprise your enemies or to escape. People should think about different possibilities from normal Dota.
Tides of blood use more "passive" approach. where you have many large battles all over the map and you have to destroy several bases (not map to my liking though).
There are several possibilities for terrains. Personally I like Aoen of 6 gods style, where you have one massive spawn on the middle, yet you can also take alternative routes while others battle it out....
3. The Gameplay
This is where new ideas should shine. Iv been wondering quite a lot what could truly make a new and great Dota. While my own AoS makes it more fast paced and removes the creeping, I think there still should be some new mechanics to make it more interesting.
In Aeon of 6 gods you could buy tomes to increase your power and your hero would actually evolve to different unit and gain new skills as you became closer to godhood.
Random weather effects? Capturing zones to gain buffs to your allies? What do you think could work on a new dota map? Should there be Stronger creep spawns periodically?
I had more ideas and more to write, but Ill end this here. Feel free to discuss and add ideas of your own. Im sure I forgot something... :/. I hope I didnt make the post too confusing since many people probly havent played the old wc3 AoS maps...nonetheless discuss!
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@SkrowFunk: Go
"bnet popular 2.0" != popular
and td.s are not just bnet popular, just a side note.
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@Triceron: Go
Ding Ding! we have a winner. Finally someone who isnt a complete...stupid :(.
I guess I shouldnt even post in the thread since the thread was useles to begin with. Saying that something sucks when its getting played over and over again, mean it clearly doesnt suck. I dont know if rodrigo is really serious with his thread...he probly is. Well I dont have anything smart to say, but good post triceron!
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@Nebuli2: Go
Every game gets boring at somepoint, your argument negated
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Stupid people say TDs arent fun.
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and get yourself a kinetic
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I wish I was cool like rodrigo...one can only dream...
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TD:s can be fun but only for a while. I really wouldnt bother making one since most likely the replay value is close to 0 (atleast to me). And TDs are mostly time killer for me, nothing I would play like a maniac (Like I played dota in the old days).
But I guess I still would like to see line tower wars or wintermaul wars, they were pretty fun and different even though they got boring after a while too...not to mention it was really harsh depending on your enemies/allies...
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I do want other mechanices for the game though. Where you think it restricts freedom I see it gives more posibilities. But im not locked on anything, like the stamina system and experiments on UI, Ill just have to see how it goes...and by the resource control I kinda want force people to engage each other more. Now you can quite easilly just creep away as much as you want...
It doesnt have to be resource control, it could extra spawns too...Im just not sure yet what do I want to add. It could also be something like minor extra heal if you stay in the middle, that would keep the game fast paced since you wouldnt have to return to base (not super fast heal though).
The exp idea could work too I guess, but then again I feel like that might be more forcing people to engage each other than my suggested methods.
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Thx ducky you made me a fool again thinking it was balanced :D...well now we got BUFFED ROACH and BUFFED REAPER but I removed the 2nd attack -_-.
Now you cannot escape my reaper net and perhaps moip will destroy you with barroth...mmm I guess ill have to check raziel too if he is underpowered.
Big thanks to all testers yet again. I find it hard to balance without testing these things :)
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well "balanced" xD...atleast I try.
Testing in 4-10mins as soon as I get new version uploaded and find enough testers
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Testing again today at 20.00/8pm +2 GMT, which is 1h 12mins from this post. add burne.478 or pm to join in on EU.
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We played this again on mapnight. Some of the new changes not quite working out so Ill just go back to normals style.
as for removing the jump...thats not gona happen. without it I feel like it would be another AoS among others....and I want this to be something different and it remains to be seen if it will work out or not.
So I guess now ill try to polish the combat a bit and maybe we can test it again next week.
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I would play it if its fun. So go ahead and do it!