Triggers are easy to be honest, it all comes down to logic, discipline and a bit of organization skill to make it easier for you to navigate through your triggers (comments are your friend).
The data editor, on the other hand (especially actors and actor events), now THAT's tough!
Thanks for the advice! I try to be patient and endure this dark period.
"The data editor, on the other hand (especially actors and actor events), now THAT's tough!"
Cant believe there is something more complicated than triggers :D
Oh believe me, my head explodes too when it comes to triggers. For that reason I leave it to the pros. I have heard the same thing about terrain all the time. Now i have seen TheAzureguy's terrain and I have done a few maps for him and many others. They just tell me they are clueless when it comes to terrain it just dosent sink in. The fact is that..... If TRIGGERS is your "thing" or DATA then it will be easy for them. Sooo no triggers are not easy cause they are not my "thing". :-)
Oh believe me, my head explodes too when it comes to triggers. For that reason I leave it to the pros. I have heard the same thing about terrain all the time. Now i have seen TheAzureguy's terrain and I have done a few maps for him and many others. They just tell me they are clueless when it comes to terrain it just dosent sink in. The fact is that..... If TRIGGERS is your "thing" or DATA then it will be easy for them. Sooo no triggers are not easy cause they are not my "thing". :-)
speaking of terrain, (my thread died so I'll ask here) How do you correctly implement custom terrain?
because I've tried a couple of things, the first just didn't work at all and the second just turned the texture a bright eye blinding white.
Triggers are easy because regardless of maps you would peruse .. they are clear
and while you may stutter step (like i do) any pot holes .. half decent triggers will still work (mine do and they r awful) while half baked data fields will break your map quick
so if you feel at a loss.. open up free/d maps with triggers to get a better understanding of how to use the trigger editor...
as stated before, in galaxy data is hell .. triggers are heaven (this from someone who spent a few months in triggers and a few years toying with data)
stratostygo/ i think it worked in the second case but the "default" orders (lighting) to your textures must be wrong (ergo the ones of the template you used), sorry i can't dish out a better comment.
Triggers are fine, especially if you have done that with war3.. But I can understand why some complain about the data editor - so many useless fields are on display, ones that you will almost never change. And creating a simple ability - I'm better off making a dummy ability and then I can add all actor effects, sounds, behaviors, damage, etc I want all in a single trigger. Otherwise create so many data things that copying them type by type between maps or mod is annoying. And sometimes the way you have to set up things for a simple projectile or Item - yes an item takes more time to create than a unit, did you know? Because besides unit, you may want to create the item data set it with charges, effects. In War3 items were easier, yes you could not treat items like units but the way items are a whole tree of data things... I think the whole way this data editor is made is horrible.
And think of loading Actors - my high-end pc can sometimes crash the editor if I click quickly between fields because of so many fields that it has to display, you know it freezes for a moment to suddenly load all crap, all the useless fields.
Comment your code in caps!! I found this a good way to break up the craziness.
Keep it super simple as you get started. Simple is already complicated enough if you are just getting started.
Did you watch Delton's videos?
Yes i have they helped and your tutorial page as well hockle. Masked imposters videos where the most helpful though i just made a trigger where when a marine enters a region he will turn into a banana! Isnt that glorious!? :D
When i realized how much time triggers and datas requires, i instantly gave up, i hate logic, maths and geometry and the more i tryed to understand triggers, the more i wanted to do everything else
I am opposite of most - I sort of enjoy and appreciate the complexity of the data editor - IMO, the key is learning which fields you don't need in which situations, which reduces the confusion a lot. Triggering is tougher for me and takes a lot of testing to get things right. Terraining is completely out of the picture for me, hence me never trying to make a real map.
Visit my channel where I showcase custom content! Send me a PM or respond to my YouTube thread if you'd like to see your map/s on my channel (eventually!)
I am opposite of most - I sort of enjoy and appreciate the complexity of the data editor - IMO, the key is learning which fields to just not bother with, which reduces the confusion a lot. Triggering is tougher for me and takes a lot of testing to get things right. Terraining is completely out of the picture for me, hence me never trying to make a real map.
Well at least you making very enjoyable playthroughs... so you're not utterly useless... :D
i dont think there are any useless fields in the data editor, in fact i think the editor is by far the best thing about sc2 compared to wc3.
data and triggers can be learned, making things look good needs talent. ofc everybody can come up with an okish terrain and okish buttons and so on but it will never look great no matter how much time you will invest. data and triggers will work one day if you are willing to invest enough time.
also mapsters actually covers mostly every topic about the editor so anyone starting to mod now wont have too much of a tough time compared to ppl who figured things out in the first place.
Despite the complexity of the data editor i have actually been creating more cooler stuff with it than with the object editor in wc3. In wc3 i usually just downloaded spells made by other people to add to my projects. the cool stuff there was made with JASs and/or really complicated triggers.
For WC4 I hope they reorganize it a bit differently. Especially the actor events look like a mess when there are many of them; and it's annoying when you have to copy&paste stuff from other actors. the next big thing they should work on is the cinematics triggers. I want to be able to use keyframes like in the cinematics editor. And be able to see/fast-forward a cinematic while in the editor, and not having to restart the map/cinematic every time.
I think a lot of stuff would be easier if they just added more information to each field (when you move your mouse over a field). With examples and stuff.
Honestly The editor is a great tool with terrible documentation. It's not that the editor has too many useless fields, it's more that it doesn't explain them very well and most people only know how to use the obvious ones. All the time I discover some new effect I can accomplish by just changing one field on a unit/behavior/effect that is really awesome and I only discovered through experimenting and large amounts of trial and error. The data editor should be a lot less trial and error and a lot more reading documentation. Unfortunately Blizzard has shown that it really doesn't care about improving the documentation or about releasing tutorials which are helpful for anyone but people who are looking at the editor for the first time.
In other words, yes it's tough, but not because it has to be, but because nobody has sat down and actually catalogued everything the editor can do.
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The more i learn about the editor the more im getting the suspicion that blizzard never ever wanted the repeat of insurrection/retribution campaign. They made it so not every homeless guy on the street can pick this tool up and make a stellar forces sequel.
I agree great tool, but terrible documentation. However, the wiki here at this site is pretty thorough for beginners. I wish we could collaborate with Blizzard and get the wiki better documented and updated. I think a lot more people would jump on making a campaign or some fun arcade maps if the editor was just more accessible to the masses...through documentation and do X and Y and you will Z instructions.
Do note that we do now possess the power to make the data editor as hard or easy as we want with data wizards. I do know that right now, making wizards is a pita because you have to understand XML, and also how the data editor works. But Blizzard is working on a GUI version, strings are in for part of it. And the documentation for creating them is quite excellent.
i wonder if it was possible for blizzard to come out with 2 versions of an editor. One would be called Basic, and other advanced. Basic would be like the warcraft 3 own, And advanced would be what we have now.
Anyway, i dont think ppl realize , but when you compare sc2 to war3 editors, You have to remember that warcraft 3 had a ton of pre-made hero abilities/unit abilities. Whereas in sc2, No such abilities exist, Like you dont have mass'es of pre-made abilities to choose from . So if they gave you a war3-like editor from the start. We'd all be screwed because every last one of us would have had to figure out how to code extensively to make a basic ability.
In warcraft 3, using the regular editor ( none jass addition) was next to impossible to create anything truly custom. Like say you wanted to do a mass hex. You'd have to create a dummy unit with the ability hex x for each unit in search and have each individually cast the already made hex. It was literally an editor of rehashing the same things to give slightly different effects.
Its only when the jassnewgen pack came were ppl finally able to create truely custom abilities, And even that was more off limits than the starcraft 2 editor because it required an extensive knowledge of jass.....
In sc2, the beauty is you dont need to know a programming language at all to be able to do some truly inspiring custom abilities.
But Blizzard is working on a GUI version (of wizards)
Whoa are you kidding? That would be awesome! Personally i never used XML even though sometimes it could be usefull.
About the editor beeing though, I'd say to learn it, you give yourself some basic goals like making a very basic defense map. Then in that map you use, create units, variables, points and stuff. You need to play with it and get stuff working without worrying about optimisation. When you want to create something, try to have a reference point, for example, you want a unit to build a structure? well look at the Probe, you want to make a unit build other units? Well look at the carrier, you want to make an upgrade, well look at the weapon upgrades... Of course its not as simple as in sc1 where you just put that increament value for cost and put 255 to the upg count... but still. In some cases, combining data and triggers is what will work best for optimisation and simplicity. Oh and GUI is great, just play with it with basic goals such as creating a unit and issuing a command.
Peronally, I'd say the data editor is more easy to learn as it is more fixed. The way you do things will always be the same; Behavior -> Effect -> do other things, etc. Whereas triggers are very dynamic and can uses convertions, strings, variables, presets, array, maths, and many many other things.
Fun fact: the first thing I did in the editor was during WoL Beta, and I did something like a while loop of some sort with create units without a Wait and the game froze. I laughted. Some time after I made a map that used many Periodic Event (thinking that it would do the same as Periodic Trigger from sc1 editor) and it started lagging bad. There were like 80 events going on every sec or so. With some help, I was able to find out that this is not a good way of doing things and changed it... Years after years I played a little with the editor to learn it without rushing and eventually got to today where I'm decent in most cases; terrain, trigger, data, but not good for everything. For example advanced triggering or actor events.
Anyone else feel like this when they first time started with triggers?
Triggers are easy to be honest, it all comes down to logic, discipline and a bit of organization skill to make it easier for you to navigate through your triggers (comments are your friend).
The data editor, on the other hand (especially actors and actor events), now THAT's tough!
@TheAzureguy: Go
Thanks for the advice! I try to be patient and endure this dark period.
"The data editor, on the other hand (especially actors and actor events), now THAT's tough!" Cant believe there is something more complicated than triggers :D
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Curse PremiumOh believe me, my head explodes too when it comes to triggers. For that reason I leave it to the pros. I have heard the same thing about terrain all the time. Now i have seen TheAzureguy's terrain and I have done a few maps for him and many others. They just tell me they are clueless when it comes to terrain it just dosent sink in. The fact is that..... If TRIGGERS is your "thing" or DATA then it will be easy for them. Sooo no triggers are not easy cause they are not my "thing". :-)
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speaking of terrain, (my thread died so I'll ask here) How do you correctly implement custom terrain?
because I've tried a couple of things, the first just didn't work at all and the second just turned the texture a bright eye blinding white.
Triggers are easy because regardless of maps you would peruse .. they are clear
and while you may stutter step (like i do) any pot holes .. half decent triggers will still work (mine do and they r awful) while half baked data fields will break your map quick
so if you feel at a loss.. open up free/d maps with triggers to get a better understanding of how to use the trigger editor...
as stated before, in galaxy data is hell .. triggers are heaven (this from someone who spent a few months in triggers and a few years toying with data)
stratostygo/ i think it worked in the second case but the "default" orders (lighting) to your textures must be wrong (ergo the ones of the template you used), sorry i can't dish out a better comment.
Comment your code in caps!! I found this a good way to break up the craziness.
Keep it super simple as you get started. Simple is already complicated enough if you are just getting started.
Did you watch Delton's videos?
Triggers are fine, especially if you have done that with war3.. But I can understand why some complain about the data editor - so many useless fields are on display, ones that you will almost never change. And creating a simple ability - I'm better off making a dummy ability and then I can add all actor effects, sounds, behaviors, damage, etc I want all in a single trigger. Otherwise create so many data things that copying them type by type between maps or mod is annoying. And sometimes the way you have to set up things for a simple projectile or Item - yes an item takes more time to create than a unit, did you know? Because besides unit, you may want to create the item data set it with charges, effects. In War3 items were easier, yes you could not treat items like units but the way items are a whole tree of data things... I think the whole way this data editor is made is horrible.
And think of loading Actors - my high-end pc can sometimes crash the editor if I click quickly between fields because of so many fields that it has to display, you know it freezes for a moment to suddenly load all crap, all the useless fields.
Yes i have they helped and your tutorial page as well hockle. Masked imposters videos where the most helpful though i just made a trigger where when a marine enters a region he will turn into a banana! Isnt that glorious!? :D
When i realized how much time triggers and datas requires, i instantly gave up, i hate logic, maths and geometry and the more i tryed to understand triggers, the more i wanted to do everything else
I am opposite of most - I sort of enjoy and appreciate the complexity of the data editor - IMO, the key is learning which fields you don't need in which situations, which reduces the confusion a lot. Triggering is tougher for me and takes a lot of testing to get things right. Terraining is completely out of the picture for me, hence me never trying to make a real map.
Visit my channel where I showcase custom content! Send me a PM or respond to my YouTube thread if you'd like to see your map/s on my channel (eventually!)
Well at least you making very enjoyable playthroughs... so you're not utterly useless... :D
i dont think there are any useless fields in the data editor, in fact i think the editor is by far the best thing about sc2 compared to wc3.
data and triggers can be learned, making things look good needs talent. ofc everybody can come up with an okish terrain and okish buttons and so on but it will never look great no matter how much time you will invest. data and triggers will work one day if you are willing to invest enough time.
also mapsters actually covers mostly every topic about the editor so anyone starting to mod now wont have too much of a tough time compared to ppl who figured things out in the first place.
Despite the complexity of the data editor i have actually been creating more cooler stuff with it than with the object editor in wc3. In wc3 i usually just downloaded spells made by other people to add to my projects. the cool stuff there was made with JASs and/or really complicated triggers.
For WC4 I hope they reorganize it a bit differently. Especially the actor events look like a mess when there are many of them; and it's annoying when you have to copy&paste stuff from other actors. the next big thing they should work on is the cinematics triggers. I want to be able to use keyframes like in the cinematics editor. And be able to see/fast-forward a cinematic while in the editor, and not having to restart the map/cinematic every time.
I think a lot of stuff would be easier if they just added more information to each field (when you move your mouse over a field). With examples and stuff.
Honestly The editor is a great tool with terrible documentation. It's not that the editor has too many useless fields, it's more that it doesn't explain them very well and most people only know how to use the obvious ones. All the time I discover some new effect I can accomplish by just changing one field on a unit/behavior/effect that is really awesome and I only discovered through experimenting and large amounts of trial and error. The data editor should be a lot less trial and error and a lot more reading documentation. Unfortunately Blizzard has shown that it really doesn't care about improving the documentation or about releasing tutorials which are helpful for anyone but people who are looking at the editor for the first time.
In other words, yes it's tough, but not because it has to be, but because nobody has sat down and actually catalogued everything the editor can do.
@Baelethal: Go
The more i learn about the editor the more im getting the suspicion that blizzard never ever wanted the repeat of insurrection/retribution campaign. They made it so not every homeless guy on the street can pick this tool up and make a stellar forces sequel.
@Baelethal: Go
I agree great tool, but terrible documentation. However, the wiki here at this site is pretty thorough for beginners. I wish we could collaborate with Blizzard and get the wiki better documented and updated. I think a lot more people would jump on making a campaign or some fun arcade maps if the editor was just more accessible to the masses...through documentation and do X and Y and you will Z instructions.
Do note that we do now possess the power to make the data editor as hard or easy as we want with data wizards. I do know that right now, making wizards is a pita because you have to understand XML, and also how the data editor works. But Blizzard is working on a GUI version, strings are in for part of it. And the documentation for creating them is quite excellent.
i wonder if it was possible for blizzard to come out with 2 versions of an editor. One would be called Basic, and other advanced. Basic would be like the warcraft 3 own, And advanced would be what we have now.
Anyway, i dont think ppl realize , but when you compare sc2 to war3 editors, You have to remember that warcraft 3 had a ton of pre-made hero abilities/unit abilities. Whereas in sc2, No such abilities exist, Like you dont have mass'es of pre-made abilities to choose from . So if they gave you a war3-like editor from the start. We'd all be screwed because every last one of us would have had to figure out how to code extensively to make a basic ability.
In warcraft 3, using the regular editor ( none jass addition) was next to impossible to create anything truly custom. Like say you wanted to do a mass hex. You'd have to create a dummy unit with the ability hex x for each unit in search and have each individually cast the already made hex. It was literally an editor of rehashing the same things to give slightly different effects.
Its only when the jassnewgen pack came were ppl finally able to create truely custom abilities, And even that was more off limits than the starcraft 2 editor because it required an extensive knowledge of jass.....
In sc2, the beauty is you dont need to know a programming language at all to be able to do some truly inspiring custom abilities.
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Curse PremiumWhoa are you kidding? That would be awesome! Personally i never used XML even though sometimes it could be usefull.
About the editor beeing though, I'd say to learn it, you give yourself some basic goals like making a very basic defense map. Then in that map you use, create units, variables, points and stuff. You need to play with it and get stuff working without worrying about optimisation. When you want to create something, try to have a reference point, for example, you want a unit to build a structure? well look at the Probe, you want to make a unit build other units? Well look at the carrier, you want to make an upgrade, well look at the weapon upgrades... Of course its not as simple as in sc1 where you just put that increament value for cost and put 255 to the upg count... but still. In some cases, combining data and triggers is what will work best for optimisation and simplicity. Oh and GUI is great, just play with it with basic goals such as creating a unit and issuing a command.
Peronally, I'd say the data editor is more easy to learn as it is more fixed. The way you do things will always be the same; Behavior -> Effect -> do other things, etc. Whereas triggers are very dynamic and can uses convertions, strings, variables, presets, array, maths, and many many other things.
Fun fact: the first thing I did in the editor was during WoL Beta, and I did something like a while loop of some sort with create units without a Wait and the game froze. I laughted. Some time after I made a map that used many Periodic Event (thinking that it would do the same as Periodic Trigger from sc1 editor) and it started lagging bad. There were like 80 events going on every sec or so. With some help, I was able to find out that this is not a good way of doing things and changed it... Years after years I played a little with the editor to learn it without rushing and eventually got to today where I'm decent in most cases; terrain, trigger, data, but not good for everything. For example advanced triggering or actor events.
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