Hey everyone; for those of you who can remember, I gathered some feedback from the community not too long ago on the Editor as well as the Popularity System. Now that we've moved along quite a bit and Blizzard has began pumping out some of their own tutorials, I'm curious to think what the rest of the community feels about them. Thus far, they have produced three:
I believe these tutorials were great, though 3/4 of them were pretty beginner-level, which isn't exactly a bad thing, they're just aimed at a different audience. What I want to know is, is there anything Blizzard could have done different in their previous tutorials? Did you think Blizzard did a good job with them, or do you feel there was something missing? In addition, from here on out, what kind of tutorials would you like to see? Is there anything specific that maybe you aren't sure how to achieve within your map project, or perhaps you've noticed a lot of the rest of the community struggling with? I want to make this our opportunity to help Blizzard help us in succeeding with our own projects.
Disclaimer: I do not work for Blizzard, I run SC2Mapster. I am just gathering data to send in to Blizzard on my own accord. You shouldn't look at this as Blizzard officially collecting feedback, but do know that it will be read by the proper people.
Not really a tutorial, but pretty important. A thorough run down on what each Data Type dose and the different types of it. Effect - instant vs effect - target, stuff like that.
ACTORS. They are simple enough, if you know what your doing. They need a tutorial so people know what the're doing.
Advanced triggering things, such as records, catalog, banks if coarse, data table, and other things that have hidden potential.
Feedback
Images are good, nice work with that part.
I'd rather read a block of text about what everything dose, and then figure out how to implant it by myself, then go through a slow tutorial. Of coarse thats just me, and experience is required to figure stuff out. I guess that's not really a tutorial though.
Pardon my indiscretion, but I'm going to ignore the tutorials entirely and pretend you asked "What feedback would you give Blizzard regarding the editor?". Feel free to ignore the following if you're looking for only tutorial feedback.
Firstly, user friendliness. This doesn't apply to myself but it's a clear issue. I've long suggested an "Editor Lite" that amalgamates the features into more easily handled chunks, and cutting out more niche aspects of the editor. This "Editor Lite" would be an option, on by default, and able to be turned on and off just like the other editor options.
Take creating a new unit. We've all been there, albeit nearly a year since. It probably still stumps new users. Something like that could be easily compressed into something much more manageable, with the actor created for the user (who simply chooses the model), and a lot of the more fringe options (tooltip priority, strafe radius, you get the idea) simply not displayed to reduce clutter and ease the user in.
Secondly, the lag. 125ms delay is just sticky and horrible for most custom gaming. I can accept that fps will never be realistic on b.net due to this, but even DotA genres suffer from this playing-in-treacle experience. I don't know what, if anything can be done about this, but any improvement would be very welcome.
If at all possible, adding a "Get user mouse position" to track the X and Y co-ordinates of where the user is aiming their mouse right now. I know there's mouse movement detection, but it's too traffic intensive for b.net play. Being able to grab the user's mouse position on demand opens up Diablo style movement controls.
Lastly, being able to smart-cast abilities with the left mouse button (think move ordering with left-mouse) would be a real dream.
Again, if this isn't what you were after, feel free to disregard/delete it. Though please, ban anyone who brings the popularity system up. I'm sick of reading about it by now.
I've long suggested an "Editor Lite" that amalgamates the features into more easily handled chunks, and cutting out more niche aspects of the editor..... and a lot of the more fringe options (tooltip priority, strafe radius, you get the idea) simply not displayed to reduce clutter and ease the user in.
Its not worth it. There is already a "hide advanced fields" button.
Secondly, the lag. 125ms delay is just sticky and horrible for most custom gaming.
I tell you Blizzard has no intention of ruining custom games. Maybe there's a reason behind it? BTW 125ms Really isn't that long. How long is a game loop?
I agree with mouse position on demand, it would open up so many possibilities. And I would like to add one more: ability to add/display models in dialogs.
This. I don't want pretty pictures and everything explained down to every button press. More stuff like the missile mover tutorial.
An even better solution would be to put that documentation into the editor. Update the tooltips for those arcane fields and flags. Put a short description of actor types in the window where they're created. That way we wouldn't need tutorials :P
... yeah, this is turning into "what I want fixed in the editor"
I was impressed with the missile mover tutorials. If you guys want more documentation I would go to the Blizzard forums on that tutorial and thank them personally with a reply so they know we care.
I found the tutorials to be confirmations of what we already knew or had hunches about. The first 3 tutorials weren't really for us so we can't say much about them. The Movers tutorial was definitely more advanced, but I had already created a more condensed version of that. While I, personally, might appreciate the clarification for some of the fields (I wasn't entirely sure about some of them), there were few people who understood all of the verbiage being spit out in the Movers tutorial.
If they make more tutorials on advanced subjects it would help to avoid terms that, while technically correct, aren't commonly used. For example, there were a LOT of mathematical terms (Sinusoidal motion of a wave being one) that put people off. Drawing a picture or even "wave motions" would be a better way to explain it while offering up "Sinusoidal" as a supplemental description for the more mathematically inclined user. I've found in my interactions with other modders that most aren't really math folks. They're artsy folks (given the creative aspect of modding) that understand how to use math, but not always what the proper descriptions are. Bottom line: you shouldn't need to reference wiki to understand the tutorial.
Also, I'd definitely prefer if Blizzard avoided making tutorials on how things interact. If the tutorials are strictly technical in that they describe HOW things work, people like me can easily make tutorials explaining how to put the parts together to make cool stuff.
Also, I'd definitely prefer if Blizzard avoided making tutorials on how things interact. If the tutorials are strictly technical in that they describe HOW things work, people like me can easily make tutorials explaining how to put the parts together to make cool stuff.
I am just glad blizzard is making tutorials for their editor. I think it's awesome to have more info from the source so you know how they approach using their own tools.
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ModeratorsHey everyone; for those of you who can remember, I gathered some feedback from the community not too long ago on the Editor as well as the Popularity System. Now that we've moved along quite a bit and Blizzard has began pumping out some of their own tutorials, I'm curious to think what the rest of the community feels about them. Thus far, they have produced three:
I believe these tutorials were great, though 3/4 of them were pretty beginner-level, which isn't exactly a bad thing, they're just aimed at a different audience. What I want to know is, is there anything Blizzard could have done different in their previous tutorials? Did you think Blizzard did a good job with them, or do you feel there was something missing? In addition, from here on out, what kind of tutorials would you like to see? Is there anything specific that maybe you aren't sure how to achieve within your map project, or perhaps you've noticed a lot of the rest of the community struggling with? I want to make this our opportunity to help Blizzard help us in succeeding with our own projects.
Disclaimer: I do not work for Blizzard, I run SC2Mapster. I am just gathering data to send in to Blizzard on my own accord. You shouldn't look at this as Blizzard officially collecting feedback, but do know that it will be read by the proper people.
@Sixen: Go
Tutorial Ideas
Feedback
Pardon my indiscretion, but I'm going to ignore the tutorials entirely and pretend you asked "What feedback would you give Blizzard regarding the editor?". Feel free to ignore the following if you're looking for only tutorial feedback.
Firstly, user friendliness. This doesn't apply to myself but it's a clear issue. I've long suggested an "Editor Lite" that amalgamates the features into more easily handled chunks, and cutting out more niche aspects of the editor. This "Editor Lite" would be an option, on by default, and able to be turned on and off just like the other editor options.
Take creating a new unit. We've all been there, albeit nearly a year since. It probably still stumps new users. Something like that could be easily compressed into something much more manageable, with the actor created for the user (who simply chooses the model), and a lot of the more fringe options (tooltip priority, strafe radius, you get the idea) simply not displayed to reduce clutter and ease the user in.
Secondly, the lag. 125ms delay is just sticky and horrible for most custom gaming. I can accept that fps will never be realistic on b.net due to this, but even DotA genres suffer from this playing-in-treacle experience. I don't know what, if anything can be done about this, but any improvement would be very welcome.
If at all possible, adding a "Get user mouse position" to track the X and Y co-ordinates of where the user is aiming their mouse right now. I know there's mouse movement detection, but it's too traffic intensive for b.net play. Being able to grab the user's mouse position on demand opens up Diablo style movement controls.
Lastly, being able to smart-cast abilities with the left mouse button (think move ordering with left-mouse) would be a real dream.
Again, if this isn't what you were after, feel free to disregard/delete it. Though please, ban anyone who brings the popularity system up. I'm sick of reading about it by now.
Its not worth it. There is already a "hide advanced fields" button.
I tell you Blizzard has no intention of ruining custom games. Maybe there's a reason behind it? BTW 125ms Really isn't that long. How long is a game loop?
Works fine on bnet, do you know what your talking about?
Huh? You could trigger that with a dummy ability. EDIT: I don't get this at all, you want left clicking to cast abilities? Huh?
So we can't talk about the popularity system, but we can talk about your terrible ideas?
BTW I think we're a little off topic. Good job
I agree with mouse position on demand, it would open up so many possibilities. And I would like to add one more: ability to add/display models in dialogs.
like i said on TL
more documentation for things that are completely undocumented. missile movers was a good start. but theres so so so SO much more.
otherwise. client side triggers that deal with UI. thats all i want right now. other than model tools
This. I don't want pretty pictures and everything explained down to every button press. More stuff like the missile mover tutorial.
An even better solution would be to put that documentation into the editor. Update the tooltips for those arcane fields and flags. Put a short description of actor types in the window where they're created. That way we wouldn't need tutorials :P
... yeah, this is turning into "what I want fixed in the editor"
@Tolkfan: Go
I was impressed with the missile mover tutorials. If you guys want more documentation I would go to the Blizzard forums on that tutorial and thank them personally with a reply so they know we care.
I found the tutorials to be confirmations of what we already knew or had hunches about. The first 3 tutorials weren't really for us so we can't say much about them. The Movers tutorial was definitely more advanced, but I had already created a more condensed version of that. While I, personally, might appreciate the clarification for some of the fields (I wasn't entirely sure about some of them), there were few people who understood all of the verbiage being spit out in the Movers tutorial.
If they make more tutorials on advanced subjects it would help to avoid terms that, while technically correct, aren't commonly used. For example, there were a LOT of mathematical terms (Sinusoidal motion of a wave being one) that put people off. Drawing a picture or even "wave motions" would be a better way to explain it while offering up "Sinusoidal" as a supplemental description for the more mathematically inclined user. I've found in my interactions with other modders that most aren't really math folks. They're artsy folks (given the creative aspect of modding) that understand how to use math, but not always what the proper descriptions are. Bottom line: you shouldn't need to reference wiki to understand the tutorial.
Also, I'd definitely prefer if Blizzard avoided making tutorials on how things interact. If the tutorials are strictly technical in that they describe HOW things work, people like me can easily make tutorials explaining how to put the parts together to make cool stuff.
I agree with this.
I am just glad blizzard is making tutorials for their editor. I think it's awesome to have more info from the source so you know how they approach using their own tools.