i was thinking about making a game that was 100% randomized. if your wondering what do i mean by that, think about this... each and every game that you play on this would constantly changing 100% of the time. no 2 games would ever be the same. the idea is that you start with 1 builder (probe,scv,drone) and it can recall units from around the map that randomly appear any where. each and every unit will spawn at a differant location around the world map and there is no telling who gets what. you might end up with 10 mineral fields or 10 carriers, its all randomized. interesting or no? i think it would also test the veteran players on thier tactics with differant units. such as 4 muta and 2 archons. odd combo's.
-_- good luck with developing this system... Sounds like to much work to develop for a game that people will rage quit and never come back to because they got all ground units while the other team got all mutas and void rays. But if you are successful I would try it
well im working on it now, so far in the 'tests' its pretty good. if your into triggers this is an example of one.
Events
Timer expires
Local Variables
Conditions
Actions
Unit - Create (Random integer between 1 and 5) Baneling for player (Random integer between 1 and 14) at (Random point in WorldMap) using default facing (Ignore Placement)
Times that for every unit in SC2. i have the timer set high so its not madness with the map coverd in 1000 units at a time. thinking of adding in a board and game ends when a player gets a certain amount of kills. ohh and even the start location is random'ed lol.
as far as the balance issue goes, i understand that if you get 5 bc's when another get 3 marines seems unfair, to say the least. im not on balancing it out yet but an idea is only spawning 1 bc or carrier or the like compaired to several of the lesser units. 10marines vs 1 bc type of stuff. :D
oh and another question... do you think i should or should not include campaign units on this?? firebat diamondback abbers? just thought i would throw that out there, :D
I agree with Doubleclick, randomization works in party/mini games like Super Smash Bros. and Bomberman. Beware of making it any competetive, making it drag out to long or if you have to reload the map for each game, those things and others will probably turn people off.
Gameplay based on luck is the worst gameplay you could find, in terms of game design. As people said before me, the problem is you can end up with a terrible combo and you'll probably lose, or have the best combo and people will most certainly hate you and rage quit. Let's have a look at Diablo 3 for a second: some parts are randomized in this game, but if you look closely they're actually presets/patterns repeated a certain amount of time, with a probably of showing which is set for the current game. This is as far as randomness should go, I advise VERY STRONGLY you do not give a 100% randomized army to each player...
If you really want to make the game different each time it's played, let the game pick among a few presets of units you've made. It goes without saying you will have to define these presets so that it can basically counter any kind of preset that the opponent can have, or players will feel like it's either way too hard or way too easy, not because they played badly but because luck was (or wasn't) on their side. Frustrating gameplay is neither fun or addictive, people will just hate it after 2 or 3 attempts at getting a decent combo... The more units there are, the less they'll get lucky.
However, if you REALLY REALLY want to make something random, as far as I know nobody has ever done a "Welcome to Las Vegas" kind of map, where you'd have to use your cash in machines (black jack, jackpot, poker, you name it...). It should be quite easy to make a game where players would have to bet in a series of card/money games to earn tokens, then use these tokens as resources to train units and/or build structures! You will still have to figure what to do when players are completely broke (if they just lose, they'll hate the game), and to make sure they have at least one source of permanent income to stand long enough against rushing idiots.
However, if you REALLY REALLY want to make something random, as far as I know nobody has ever done a "Welcome to Las Vegas" kind of map, where you'd have to use your cash in machines (black jack, jackpot, poker, you name it...). It should be quite easy to make a game where players would have to bet in a series of card/money games to earn tokens, then use these tokens as resources to train units and/or build structures! You will still have to figure what to do when players are completely broke (if they just lose, they'll hate the game), and to make sure they have at least one source of permanent income to stand long enough against rushing idiots.
Sir, you just imagined classic but brilliant concept; gamble to win.
For rushers, should opposing team rush back or macro, they either *could* counter it, or macro for defensive structure
(heroic cannon preventing 6pool, lol)
really love the feed back on this. bunch of good ideas. guess i hit a nerve with this post, lol. anyways. you mentioned gambling on a game. i have noticed a few games that let you bet on who would win a 1vs1 melee match up. i was thinking of this too. create a game that had 2 comp AI's so it was not a matter of player skill in crushing a newbie, and having the players BET on the computer that would win. any GREAT player can micro like a pro and crush with different unit combo's, such as the 1p challenges vs an AI. good or bad?
as far as the randomized map goes, was thinking about adding in a benefit to building a base (structures) as apposed to just massing units.
Been meaning to give my opinion on this matter for a while now:
If you're still going with the same concept, I think it should be a sort of "adjusted" randomness. The lazier way to do it is to categorize units into broad categories (Air, Spam/Light, Armored/big) and then add them into the "opposite" categories (Anit-Air, Anti-Big, Anti-Spam) they fit in. Place random units for one player, then check what category they belong to and add to some integer or real variable to sort of increase "Priority" of the counter category required. For the next player, compare the priority of each group. Lets say Anti Air has 30 points, Anti Spam has 12 points and anti Armor has 4 points. Roll a random integer between 1 and 46 (<- All group priorities added together).
If (random int) <= 30 (Anti Air priority), spawn a random unit from the anti air group.
If (anti air priority) < (random int) <= 42 (Anti Spam + Anti Air), spawn an Anit Spam unit.
If (random int) > (anti spam + anti air), spawn an Anti armor unit.
Would recommend multiple rolls per player.
Then continue on to the next player: Count units again, add priorities up, etc.
The not "lazy" way would be very similar, except you'd give each unit its own priority based on what units have already been randomised. If a lot of banelings were spawned, zerglings would have a priority of -(a lot), but most air units would have a high priority. This system would be far more complex, take far more work, and would be far more effective at making the game "fair".
Also, I'd recommend cycling through players multiple times (So that the first player in the cycle doesn't get super countered).
good idea. i was thinking along the lines of that. but more like the amount of units spawned. cant have 5 units each spawn. 5 collossus vs 5 marines would be rape. so make it so that 1 colossus vs several marines. and the like. i can also put in a counter unit spawn for players so they dont get run over with like 20siege tanks vs 20hydra or simular.
Oh boy! Someone has a similar idea to my own. I would love to see you make headway on this project. My lack of skill in using the editor is the only thing holding me back from working on a map like this. Hopefully you are not as editor impaired as me.
My map idea.
- Six players preferable. Three to each team. The bigger the teams the more the weaknesses of a particular person can be abated and smoothed over.
- Small group of starting units for each player, a mobile resource structure (Think a supply depot mounted on a flatbed truck) , and workers.
- The map has four kinds of minerals. Each mineral has its own color to identify it with a corresponding tier of unit tech. Example (Green = marines, zerglings, zealots). add a seasoning of campaign units to the list.
- The mineral fields, when depleted, yield relics or some kind of item that can be picked up by a unit. (Name it whatever you like) These items spawn based on loot tables from the data editor. Trigger > Minerals = 0 then kill unit mineral field.
- The mineral fields are randomized on the map and hidden from player view in the fog of war. Meaning that each player must scout out to find a mineral field.
- Basically the higher the tier of mineral the harder it is to mine it. Its position on the map and the time it takes to mine it are more challenging. The carrying amount for workers becomes less on these patches. This idea helps dissuade players from mining these minerals early game to get an advantage since they are hurt economically by gathering fewer resources. It is the opposite of high-yield minerals in melee.
- Units are created based upon what relics you have stashed in your main base structure. (This can be the mobile command or a new sedentary building that needs to be made and guarded.) Example: A marine relic gathered from a tier one patch, once placed inside this building, would allow that player to produce marines. Relics could also be stolen from enemy players and swapped between allies.
- To help promote styles of play, modifications of all kinds. (Use lots of imagination. I.E. armor, attack damage, attack speed, movement speed, health regeneration, etc.) are also gathered from depleted minerals to modify units. When I say modify I do not mean enhance or upgrade. The modifications change how the units ought to be played and adjust for weaknesses but do not make them better. These modifications might be something like this Ex: < +10% movement speed +10% damage taken > This means that the player can change how he uses his units. In this particular example this modification might help a player do more hit and run styled attacks. These modifications might be made purchasable from a building that a player makes just as any research upgrade might in melee, rather than be mined from minerals, as stated earlier. This would further complicate and randomize things but allow for in game customization of a players army. This might help players steer the game in the direction they choose even in a sea of randomness.
- The modifiers could be percentages or flat stats. Not sure which would be better.
I think a game like this would have a lot of potential to be fun and inviting to play even after a defeat. It would allow for players' preparation and experience to shine through even in the chaotic game play. I hope I have not written too much, so as to scare away anyone that thought to read it. These are just some ideas I have had for a working map.
sounds pretty good. im pretty good at the editor. can make zerglings launch nukes, WTF? lol...but anyways, the issue you might run into on what you discribed is how are the mineral fields placed? if its random location and random field then you might get 50 of 1kind in an area and 0 of another. if someone is coverd in LV4 mineral fields then its rape time for him because he cant make lv1 units (marine,zealot,lings) not to sure how a Relic would work attaching it to a structure but what comes to mind is making a hero marine (example) and when you obtain him you can recruit them in your structure. just make it a dependant on you must have unit (hero). as far as the modifier that would have to do with how close you are to the object that effects them. such as if your close to marine hero you get a +10% fire rate. or something like that. other wise you could be damaging your army by depleating mineral fields, lol. better to ADD than to subtract for units for progression. lack of hero is lack of bonus type of stuff.
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i was thinking about making a game that was 100% randomized. if your wondering what do i mean by that, think about this... each and every game that you play on this would constantly changing 100% of the time. no 2 games would ever be the same. the idea is that you start with 1 builder (probe,scv,drone) and it can recall units from around the map that randomly appear any where. each and every unit will spawn at a differant location around the world map and there is no telling who gets what. you might end up with 10 mineral fields or 10 carriers, its all randomized. interesting or no? i think it would also test the veteran players on thier tactics with differant units. such as 4 muta and 2 archons. odd combo's.
-_- good luck with developing this system... Sounds like to much work to develop for a game that people will rage quit and never come back to because they got all ground units while the other team got all mutas and void rays. But if you are successful I would try it
If you randomize you should do it that every player has the same random values....
Somebody should really make a SC2 melee mode where everything cost randomized with catalog values.D
well im working on it now, so far in the 'tests' its pretty good. if your into triggers this is an example of one.
Events
Timer expires
Local Variables
Conditions
Actions
Unit - Create (Random integer between 1 and 5) Baneling for player (Random integer between 1 and 14) at (Random point in WorldMap) using default facing (Ignore Placement)
Times that for every unit in SC2. i have the timer set high so its not madness with the map coverd in 1000 units at a time. thinking of adding in a board and game ends when a player gets a certain amount of kills. ohh and even the start location is random'ed lol.
as far as the balance issue goes, i understand that if you get 5 bc's when another get 3 marines seems unfair, to say the least. im not on balancing it out yet but an idea is only spawning 1 bc or carrier or the like compaired to several of the lesser units. 10marines vs 1 bc type of stuff. :D
oh and another question... do you think i should or should not include campaign units on this?? firebat diamondback abbers? just thought i would throw that out there, :D
Its a good MINIGAME, not a full game. I added this to my "warswars" map 2 months ago.
@Doubleclick123:
mini game? how so? where do you see any flaws in the concept/idea into making it a full game as you call it.
I agree with Doubleclick, randomization works in party/mini games like Super Smash Bros. and Bomberman. Beware of making it any competetive, making it drag out to long or if you have to reload the map for each game, those things and others will probably turn people off.
The game would be too small. :)
Gameplay based on luck is the worst gameplay you could find, in terms of game design. As people said before me, the problem is you can end up with a terrible combo and you'll probably lose, or have the best combo and people will most certainly hate you and rage quit. Let's have a look at Diablo 3 for a second: some parts are randomized in this game, but if you look closely they're actually presets/patterns repeated a certain amount of time, with a probably of showing which is set for the current game. This is as far as randomness should go, I advise VERY STRONGLY you do not give a 100% randomized army to each player...
If you really want to make the game different each time it's played, let the game pick among a few presets of units you've made. It goes without saying you will have to define these presets so that it can basically counter any kind of preset that the opponent can have, or players will feel like it's either way too hard or way too easy, not because they played badly but because luck was (or wasn't) on their side. Frustrating gameplay is neither fun or addictive, people will just hate it after 2 or 3 attempts at getting a decent combo... The more units there are, the less they'll get lucky.
However, if you REALLY REALLY want to make something random, as far as I know nobody has ever done a "Welcome to Las Vegas" kind of map, where you'd have to use your cash in machines (black jack, jackpot, poker, you name it...). It should be quite easy to make a game where players would have to bet in a series of card/money games to earn tokens, then use these tokens as resources to train units and/or build structures! You will still have to figure what to do when players are completely broke (if they just lose, they'll hate the game), and to make sure they have at least one source of permanent income to stand long enough against rushing idiots.
And on the seventh day, peeps like this created custom games pages 4 through 15.
Sir, you just imagined classic but brilliant concept; gamble to win. For rushers, should opposing team rush back or macro, they either *could* counter it, or macro for defensive structure (heroic cannon preventing 6pool, lol)
really love the feed back on this. bunch of good ideas. guess i hit a nerve with this post, lol. anyways. you mentioned gambling on a game. i have noticed a few games that let you bet on who would win a 1vs1 melee match up. i was thinking of this too. create a game that had 2 comp AI's so it was not a matter of player skill in crushing a newbie, and having the players BET on the computer that would win. any GREAT player can micro like a pro and crush with different unit combo's, such as the 1p challenges vs an AI. good or bad?
as far as the randomized map goes, was thinking about adding in a benefit to building a base (structures) as apposed to just massing units.
@tdhsst: Go
Been meaning to give my opinion on this matter for a while now:
If you're still going with the same concept, I think it should be a sort of "adjusted" randomness. The lazier way to do it is to categorize units into broad categories (Air, Spam/Light, Armored/big) and then add them into the "opposite" categories (Anit-Air, Anti-Big, Anti-Spam) they fit in. Place random units for one player, then check what category they belong to and add to some integer or real variable to sort of increase "Priority" of the counter category required. For the next player, compare the priority of each group. Lets say Anti Air has 30 points, Anti Spam has 12 points and anti Armor has 4 points. Roll a random integer between 1 and 46 (<- All group priorities added together).
If (random int) <= 30 (Anti Air priority), spawn a random unit from the anti air group.
If (anti air priority) < (random int) <= 42 (Anti Spam + Anti Air), spawn an Anit Spam unit.
If (random int) > (anti spam + anti air), spawn an Anti armor unit.
Would recommend multiple rolls per player.
Then continue on to the next player: Count units again, add priorities up, etc.
The not "lazy" way would be very similar, except you'd give each unit its own priority based on what units have already been randomised. If a lot of banelings were spawned, zerglings would have a priority of -(a lot), but most air units would have a high priority. This system would be far more complex, take far more work, and would be far more effective at making the game "fair".
Also, I'd recommend cycling through players multiple times (So that the first player in the cycle doesn't get super countered).
@TheAlmaity:
good idea. i was thinking along the lines of that. but more like the amount of units spawned. cant have 5 units each spawn. 5 collossus vs 5 marines would be rape. so make it so that 1 colossus vs several marines. and the like. i can also put in a counter unit spawn for players so they dont get run over with like 20siege tanks vs 20hydra or simular.
@tdhsst: Go
Oh boy! Someone has a similar idea to my own. I would love to see you make headway on this project. My lack of skill in using the editor is the only thing holding me back from working on a map like this. Hopefully you are not as editor impaired as me.
My map idea. - Six players preferable. Three to each team. The bigger the teams the more the weaknesses of a particular person can be abated and smoothed over.
- Small group of starting units for each player, a mobile resource structure (Think a supply depot mounted on a flatbed truck) , and workers.
- The map has four kinds of minerals. Each mineral has its own color to identify it with a corresponding tier of unit tech. Example (Green = marines, zerglings, zealots). add a seasoning of campaign units to the list.
- The mineral fields, when depleted, yield relics or some kind of item that can be picked up by a unit. (Name it whatever you like) These items spawn based on loot tables from the data editor. Trigger > Minerals = 0 then kill unit mineral field.
- The mineral fields are randomized on the map and hidden from player view in the fog of war. Meaning that each player must scout out to find a mineral field.
- Basically the higher the tier of mineral the harder it is to mine it. Its position on the map and the time it takes to mine it are more challenging. The carrying amount for workers becomes less on these patches. This idea helps dissuade players from mining these minerals early game to get an advantage since they are hurt economically by gathering fewer resources. It is the opposite of high-yield minerals in melee.
- Units are created based upon what relics you have stashed in your main base structure. (This can be the mobile command or a new sedentary building that needs to be made and guarded.) Example: A marine relic gathered from a tier one patch, once placed inside this building, would allow that player to produce marines. Relics could also be stolen from enemy players and swapped between allies.
- To help promote styles of play, modifications of all kinds. (Use lots of imagination. I.E. armor, attack damage, attack speed, movement speed, health regeneration, etc.) are also gathered from depleted minerals to modify units. When I say modify I do not mean enhance or upgrade. The modifications change how the units ought to be played and adjust for weaknesses but do not make them better. These modifications might be something like this Ex: < +10% movement speed +10% damage taken > This means that the player can change how he uses his units. In this particular example this modification might help a player do more hit and run styled attacks. These modifications might be made purchasable from a building that a player makes just as any research upgrade might in melee, rather than be mined from minerals, as stated earlier. This would further complicate and randomize things but allow for in game customization of a players army. This might help players steer the game in the direction they choose even in a sea of randomness.
- The modifiers could be percentages or flat stats. Not sure which would be better.
I think a game like this would have a lot of potential to be fun and inviting to play even after a defeat. It would allow for players' preparation and experience to shine through even in the chaotic game play. I hope I have not written too much, so as to scare away anyone that thought to read it. These are just some ideas I have had for a working map.
@Boxmaster:
sounds pretty good. im pretty good at the editor. can make zerglings launch nukes, WTF? lol...but anyways, the issue you might run into on what you discribed is how are the mineral fields placed? if its random location and random field then you might get 50 of 1kind in an area and 0 of another. if someone is coverd in LV4 mineral fields then its rape time for him because he cant make lv1 units (marine,zealot,lings) not to sure how a Relic would work attaching it to a structure but what comes to mind is making a hero marine (example) and when you obtain him you can recruit them in your structure. just make it a dependant on you must have unit (hero). as far as the modifier that would have to do with how close you are to the object that effects them. such as if your close to marine hero you get a +10% fire rate. or something like that. other wise you could be damaging your army by depleating mineral fields, lol. better to ADD than to subtract for units for progression. lack of hero is lack of bonus type of stuff.