I'm not taking sides here.. But I thought I'd share my experience with you. There was a point in time where I wasn't very open minded to other peoples advice/opinions/criticism, however it may be interpreted.. Always standing staunch that I was correct. But I learned something and hopefully you can learn from the lesson Iearned as well.
Someone once told me this:
When one person argues there is a flaw in your logic. There is a chance they they are just being hypocritical or whatever.
When two independant parties argue there is a flaw in your logic. There is a chance both of them might be wrong.
When multiple independant parties voice out a flaw in your logic, Chances are high that there is a flaw in your logic. So keep an open mind and try to understand why others justify it as a problem.
Instead of getting all defensive. I suggest you try to pin point the main reasons why people voice out against your idea and consider their validities. If you still feel you are right, there is nothing any of us can do. From my view as a third party, most of the posts here are advice on how you could improve your map to boost it's chances of success.
(When I say independant parties, I mean people that do not no each other personally.)
I am in no way attacking you. I'm just trying to offer some friendly advice. I grew up in an environment with quite a lot of hypercritical people always trying to find fault with me, which was the reason why I initially always fought to defend my ideas despite how flawed my logic sometimes was. People can throw criticism. As what I said in the above clause. If its one person, you might still be right. But if its a few people, its time to take a step back and rethink the logic.
This might not make sense to you now, but keep it in mind. It might make sense one day in the future.
The people on these forums are not independent. This is a community of gamers, map makers, teams, and testers, so it is clear to see how there would be significant biases. Being independent has little to do with personally knowing someone so I do not know where you got that definition.
If an atheist went into a church and stated that God was not real, obviously the overwhelming majority in the church would clearly disagree with him. Do you realize how illogical it would be for the atheist to think, "I should seriously consider that I am wrong because I cannot find anyone here to agree with me" or, "The overwhelming majority disagrees with me so I am probably wrong."
Your thinking is a common misconception that is rampant throughout the media and in society. Very often, for example, conservative and liberal stations will ask their viewers to go to a website and respond to a poll, and then these stations use the poll results to make a point. Obviously the majority of viewers on a liberal station are going to be liberals, so obviously the poll results are going to be skewed.
Lastly, if you want to learn something valuable, then learn this: people are more likely to voice their opinion on a topic when they feel strongly about the topic, while those who are not bothered or do not care are more likely to do nothing. For example, say you are on some forums and one thread reads, "Food is Good." While hundreds or thousands of viewers may agree, it is unlikely that a significant portion of them would go to the thread and support the statement, perhaps because the statement does not bother them or because they are not interested.
I suppose it would be more correct to say that if two independent communities voice out the same opinions, chances are there is a problem. An easy way to test this out, try post this same thread in another sc2 mapping forum (if there is one) see what the response is like. If their reception is similar to what you get here, you could draw a conclusion from there?
I'm not being hypocritical. I said your map name is confusing because another project exists, and the game from Bullfrog existed before that. The name of your map is obviously deceiving people because they either expect the Hive Keeper mod or a Dungeon Keeper remake. I don't need to test your map to be sure about that. You should listen to FuzzYD.
Whether you decide to keep working on your map or not, you'll probably just get people angry at you. As someone stated above, lots of them will expect to find a clone of Dungeon Keeper just because of the name (they could know of the original game, which wouldn't surprise me given the success of that game years ago and the fact that it's a war/strategy game too). If you think we're being rude, think again. Players on BNet will be way less receptive to your map idea than most of us are in these forums. We're just telling you another project exists and, obviously, keeping the same name for your project might just not help. It might even depreciate the Hive Keeper mod, so in a way it's kind of disrespectful for their work.
That's what I was saying, and I don't think I'm being hypocritical here... If I was, I would have told you to keep working on your project.
OK GUYZ... I didnt check this map but those are 2 maps based on same idea ?
If so.
Disbanding this map as being "worse" one is bad idea.
My suggestion is. Ask other guy so you guyz can work together if possible.
Or just continue working and try to differ in few things. So we dont get same maps, or competition between those two.
Also, any map can lead to something different and better trough experience you gather.
I also agree with Fuzzy. Dont defend yourself, try to find logic and try to twist few things so people get confused and maybe they can get different taste of your product.
Anyway, ignore all rude replys since you arent doing this for money, but for mapping experience and fun.
Oh, y and also. I think most of the people here are indie, instead they should be making groups with similar ideas.
Hey Pottfish, if you want to attract more map testers, you should get some screenshots and a video, if possible. It really gets a lot more people interested and has a higher chance of getting newsed.
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Feel free to Send me a PM if you have any questions/concerns!
Lastly, if you want to learn something valuable, then learn this: people are more likely to voice their opinion on a topic when they feel strongly about the topic, while those who are not bothered or do not care are more likely to do nothing. For example, say you are on some forums and one thread reads, "Food is Good." While hundreds or thousands of viewers may agree, it is unlikely that a significant portion of them would go to the thread and support the statement, perhaps because the statement does not bother them or because they are not interested.
The same is true about maps. People are far more likely to play your map if the title is something that sounds interesting to them. In the case of Dungeon Keeper, people who have played Dungeon Keeper in the past will be immediately interested, because the title is making a reference to a game they have previously played. However, their interest will fall short upon playing the game because as you said, the game only uses certain aspects of the game and is not a direct mod of the game. People tend to be grumpy when a map doesn't live up to its (albeit unfair) expectations.
On the other hand, people who have never heard of Dungeon Keeper may look at your map and not be interested at all. Of course, I know I am not talking about everyone when I say that, but the fact still stands that if a player cannot relate to a map in some way, the chance that he will be interested is much smaller.
Listen to the people on this forum, dude. We are here to help you with your project. Isn't that why you came to us in the first place? What FuzzYD said is an invaluable piece of advice. Let me expand on that a little bit. If many individuals are voicing the same opinion about a flaw in your design and you actively and aggressively defend that flaw, it makes people much less willing to voice their opinion to you ever again. Sadly, I speak these words from personal experience.
If you are so bent on using your map's title, at least rename it to something like "Dungeon Keeper Arena", where the title makes it obvious that the map is based off of Dungeon Keeper instead of being Dungeon Keeper itself.
This is getting ridiculous. I thoroughly explained why I should not be listening to FuzzyD and why his advice is bad advice, although he seems like a good person. Regardless, all of these responses tell me to listen to him. I also explained I do not care about the popularity or success of the map, yet these responses continue to assume I do. You are all doing little more than parroting.
I have been trying to discover the logic behind all this complaining but I cannot. If I made a map called King of the Rings while someone else made a map called Lord of the Rings, I would not give a flying coconut. Also knowing the person did not care about the popularity or success of their worthless map, and that their map was completely different from my own anyway, I would not give a flying watermelon.
What I believe happened is that you people assumed my map was trying to be like this Hive Keeper, but now that you know it is not, you are trying to defend your views with, "You should do what we say because we are the majority" and, "Your map is doomed if you do not change your mind."
Yes, some people may come to this thread expecting something that is not here, and this is extremely common and constantly happens all over the Internet. I am not going to spend hours changing the name of my map and its characters and descriptions for something that takes maybe 10 seconds to realize. I have been looking and just found that both edit buttons are different, so putting (NOT HIVE KEEPER) is all I will do.
I have an idea. If you are all still going to be upset over this, how about complain and demand someone change their ways when they pour you a glass of orange, and you expect it to be juice only to discover it is soda?
Nothing wrong with your map name... i don't know why so many are being rude and offensive, just let the guy do what he wants... seriously. Plus if you were really anticipating Hive keeper then you will NEVER confuse it with dungeon keeper since you are really anticipating it... how can you not know the name of the map you're anticipating.
Second, just because it's called Dungeon Keeper it doesn't mean that it has to be like the dungeon keeper game.
Oh, and i laughed so hard at this
Quote:
Well firstly Dungeon Keeper is a registered game/trademark you should probably change the name for that reason anyways.
If you're getting annoyed by repeating, then here's something new - CHILL OUT DUDE!!!
You asked us to test it, and we voiced our opinion at a glaring problem that we saw without even playing the map. However, it is obvious that you do not care about our opinion, so why should we care about yours? Did you expect that we would play your map and declare with booming trumpets that it was a work of complete and flawless art?
I wonder what you would do if anyone actually played your map and gave critique on your game play. Would you bite off their head too? You came to us to help you make your map better, and we answered. If you aren't prepared to hear the answer, then don't ask the question.
I have been trying to discover the logic behind all this complaining but I cannot.
I'll make it easier for you:
-the name of your map sounds like the old game, thus most players will expect a clone of it and/or the same overall quality... you said yourself it was not your goal, so the only feedback you'll get (if any) for a map that doesn't fit people's expectations will be "your map sucks". We were trying to warn you, you fought against it, and now you've lost the battle.
-the idea is already taken... there are lots of other ideas available, so if your goal is just to improve your skills with the editor just pick anything but this one... Have some respect for the people already working on it and stop arguing about it when we're warning you, it happens and you shouldn't make such a big deal out of it. You lost a battle here too.
-trying to play tough against an entire community won't serve your purpose. Good job, you lost the war. Proof:
There is a difference between not caring about someone's opinion and believing it is wrong. I asked to have people test the map and tell me if there were any problems, not complain about the name of the map as if I cared about its success.
I could write an entire book about why you are wrong in so many ways. First, I sincerely doubt "most players" who were to try the map would expect a clone or something of the same overall quality, because I doubt "most players" have ever played Dungeon Keeper. When I try a game called Lord of the Rings, I do not expect something dedicated to the movie, and when I tried Prisoner Rebellion, I did not expect a variation of Sheep Tag.
You said the idea is already taken - this is incorrect. I already stated my map has little to do with the actual Dungeon Keeper and is not similar to this Hive Keeper in any way. Apparently you are not comprehending this fact for some reason.
Lastly, you are considering yourself and a few others an "entire community" and proof that I lost the war based off the response of one person.
You have constantly made assumptions based upon limited information and, like I said, are parroting. I told you why you are wrong multiple times yet you ignore those points and repeat yourself. If I had the lost the "war", and it is sad that you think this is a "war", then the map would have a different name. As far as I know the map is still called Dungeon Keeper.
People arguing about its name should be banned from this site on the spot by derailing the entire thread even though the OP clearly doesn't intend to change the name.
Any project should be able to be named as they please, be it DOTA, Dungeon Keeper or even StarCraft II.
I'm not taking sides here.. But I thought I'd share my experience with you. There was a point in time where I wasn't very open minded to other peoples advice/opinions/criticism, however it may be interpreted.. Always standing staunch that I was correct. But I learned something and hopefully you can learn from the lesson Iearned as well.
Someone once told me this:
When one person argues there is a flaw in your logic. There is a chance they they are just being hypocritical or whatever.
When two independant parties argue there is a flaw in your logic. There is a chance both of them might be wrong.
When multiple independant parties voice out a flaw in your logic, Chances are high that there is a flaw in your logic. So keep an open mind and try to understand why others justify it as a problem.
Instead of getting all defensive. I suggest you try to pin point the main reasons why people voice out against your idea and consider their validities. If you still feel you are right, there is nothing any of us can do. From my view as a third party, most of the posts here are advice on how you could improve your map to boost it's chances of success.
(When I say independant parties, I mean people that do not no each other personally.)
I am in no way attacking you. I'm just trying to offer some friendly advice. I grew up in an environment with quite a lot of hypercritical people always trying to find fault with me, which was the reason why I initially always fought to defend my ideas despite how flawed my logic sometimes was. People can throw criticism. As what I said in the above clause. If its one person, you might still be right. But if its a few people, its time to take a step back and rethink the logic.
This might not make sense to you now, but keep it in mind. It might make sense one day in the future.
I would actually say there is a fourth option which you failed to address which is the following:
"When multiple independent parties voice out a flaw in your logic, it is likely that people are clinging to a minor flaw voiced by a single individual or a few vocal individuals and blowing it out of proportion. So while it is advisable to keep an open mind and try to understand why others believe it is an issue, sometimes it is important to stand one's ground after ample consideration of the matter at hand and stick to one's opinion."
At any rate, here is my take on the issue. Change the name if you feel like it, but it ultimately is your gain or loss and thus should be your decision to make. People who repeatedly comment on this topic are putting too much stress on a trivial issue.
And for those of you who still are misunderstanding the purpose of this map, it was not a direct competitor to Bibendus's Hive Keeper map (which, by the way, I am highly anticipating!). This map simply uses some basic ideas from DK and then evolved into a map with different gameplay mechanics. It is not meant to be a clone by any stretch.
The point everyone is making in summary, is this is NOT Dungeon keeper, but something else so why not name is something else? Why deliberately mislead people. Dungeon Keeper IS actually pretty well known you'd be surprised, especially as it was a similar RTS like game, so the player pool will generally have some what of a knowledge of those type of games atleast more likely.
If you join a map called 'Street Fighter' and find it's actually a Tower Defense but 'uses' Street Fight characters as the towers your first reaction would be Why the Hell is this not called Street Fighter Tower Defense or Street Fighter TD?
Do you not see that?
Your Lord of the Ring example, yes people do call their maps LOTR, but they often add a prefix after to give ppl a general hint of what it's about, LOTR RPG, LOTR Helms Deep, LOTR RISK etc. etc.
Second many have asked, can you post some screenshots please? What's the terrain like, how do the bases look, what about the units? etc. etc. How much effort does it look like you've put into this map.
If it looks really good people are alot more likely to go test it.
Will you be getting someone to put this on the EU realm for you, then I can test it and give you feedback.
Was that supposed to be a reply to me? It looks more like it is directed to the TC. But anyway, I agree with what you are saying, but I don't believe that is the main problem in itself the TC has with the responses to this thread. I agree that a more descriptive name should be used and that DK is probably more commonly heard of by SC2 players than one would expect (I think I've read about it. Is that the game where you build your own dungeon and then go there once a day?). However, the issue here is that a majority of the posts on this thread are entirely focused on the name and people are not addressing the actual topic. Good advice or not, this is not the place. If people feel so strongly about it they should PM him or construct a post like yours which talks about changing the name but then also discusses play-testing.
-the name of your map sounds like the old game, thus most players will expect a clone of it and/or the same overall quality... you said yourself it was not your goal, so the only feedback you'll get (if any) for a map that doesn't fit people's expectations will be "your map sucks". We were trying to warn you, you fought against it, and now you've lost the battle.
-the idea is already taken... there are lots of other ideas available, so if your goal is just to improve your skills with the editor just pick anything but this one... Have some respect for the people already working on it and stop arguing about it when we're warning you, it happens and you shouldn't make such a big deal out of it. You lost a battle here too.
-trying to play tough against an entire community won't serve your purpose. Good job, you lost the war. Proof:
Ah haha. Ok. I WILL test this map. Oh wait! Does that mean he's won the war now? Or is it a tie? And oh my! This is a war in the first place! *psh* And to think you said Pottfish was making a big deal out of it.
I'm also not sure where you get the idea that Pottfish is disrespecting other mappers by making a custom map for fun just because it may be similar (I'm not saying it is, but this is your impression) to other maps currently in development. How is that disrespect? He's not saying, "My map is going to be better than your map!"
Now, it may be true that he will lose players due to the name. If he does lose players, it is his loss. Why do you care? If it is because you are trying to help him out then Pottfish should feel special having someone who cares so much about his map's success! If you feel your advice is valid and Pottfish still will not take it, then forget about it. You tried to help him and he refused. No need to pursue the matter.
But anyway, yes, I would like to play test your map.
Seems to me like 3 things happened to cause this whole discussion to go sideways:
Most people came into this thread thinking that it was for Hive Keeper
The first post asked the OP to change the map name due to confusion
Bandwagon effect took place making everyone move towards a certain direction with their comments
Current consensus:
Hive Keeper is nice, yes.
People working on the map are very capable
I get to be on Hive Keeper's credits page, because I'm a secret agent on par with James Bond himself. (Just a joke, in case all you serious people in here take me for a narcissist)
But...
That isn't to say that the op's map can't come out to be more popular in the long run.
Because...
A lot of people can write AI's, it doesn't make them masters of game creation
Nor is it a recipe for automatic success.
Whether Hive Keeper will have lasting success is still to be seen
Aside from the relatively small fanbase it has created here, there isn't enough info to determine how it will rank according to this map.
@Pottfish: Go I think this whole discussion could've went in a totally different direction if you had actually included pictures and sample gameplay.
Your map sounds interesting, and has a lot of elements that could work quite well together without making the gameplay too complicated. Please show us more soon. And try not to let negative comments sway you, try to think of it as constructive criticism. The opinions of mappers that have seen maps rise to success or fall to page 23525419 is very worthy of "considering".
For balancing, you wanna release a beta to the public and work from there, this place is more for asking construction questions. So ask more specific questions, and give us more info aside from a short description.
@ZealNaga: Go Please don't make it a personal matter, Bibendus hasn't said anything. All that is happening right now is that he made a map influenced by the same game as Hive Keeper, and controversially named it Dungeon Keeper, potentially confusing a bunch of DK and Hive Keeper fans.
I like Hive Keeper's concept too, but lets be honest about a couple things:
mapster's opinion doesn't matter as much as the masses on Bnet.
Masses on Bnet have been liking maps that are more like the OP's rather than Hive Keeper.
Most people on Bnet don't even know Hive Keeper exists, and DK fans are NOT the majority of SC2 gamers.
@Szei: Go
Your Lord of the Ring example, yes people do call their maps LOTR, but they often add a prefix after to give ppl a general hint of what it's about, LOTR RPG, LOTR Helms Deep, LOTR RISK etc. etc.
That makes sense. You're right. Maybe I'll rename it to Dungeon Wars or Dungeon Keeper Arena when I get around to updating it.
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The people on these forums are not independent. This is a community of gamers, map makers, teams, and testers, so it is clear to see how there would be significant biases. Being independent has little to do with personally knowing someone so I do not know where you got that definition.
If an atheist went into a church and stated that God was not real, obviously the overwhelming majority in the church would clearly disagree with him. Do you realize how illogical it would be for the atheist to think, "I should seriously consider that I am wrong because I cannot find anyone here to agree with me" or, "The overwhelming majority disagrees with me so I am probably wrong."
Your thinking is a common misconception that is rampant throughout the media and in society. Very often, for example, conservative and liberal stations will ask their viewers to go to a website and respond to a poll, and then these stations use the poll results to make a point. Obviously the majority of viewers on a liberal station are going to be liberals, so obviously the poll results are going to be skewed.
Lastly, if you want to learn something valuable, then learn this: people are more likely to voice their opinion on a topic when they feel strongly about the topic, while those who are not bothered or do not care are more likely to do nothing. For example, say you are on some forums and one thread reads, "Food is Good." While hundreds or thousands of viewers may agree, it is unlikely that a significant portion of them would go to the thread and support the statement, perhaps because the statement does not bother them or because they are not interested.
@Pottfish: Go
Good argument, I'll give you that. As for my definition... In probability theory, to say that two events are independent intuitively means that the occurrence of one event makes it neither more nor less probable that the other occurs. Context wise, The probability that Person A says there's a problem does not influence the probability that Person B will voice the same opinion. I suppose it was incorrect of me to apply it here.
I suppose it would be more correct to say that if two independent communities voice out the same opinions, chances are there is a problem. An easy way to test this out, try post this same thread in another sc2 mapping forum (if there is one) see what the response is like. If their reception is similar to what you get here, you could draw a conclusion from there?
@Pottfish: Go
I'm not being hypocritical. I said your map name is confusing because another project exists, and the game from Bullfrog existed before that. The name of your map is obviously deceiving people because they either expect the Hive Keeper mod or a Dungeon Keeper remake. I don't need to test your map to be sure about that. You should listen to FuzzYD.
Whether you decide to keep working on your map or not, you'll probably just get people angry at you. As someone stated above, lots of them will expect to find a clone of Dungeon Keeper just because of the name (they could know of the original game, which wouldn't surprise me given the success of that game years ago and the fact that it's a war/strategy game too). If you think we're being rude, think again. Players on BNet will be way less receptive to your map idea than most of us are in these forums. We're just telling you another project exists and, obviously, keeping the same name for your project might just not help. It might even depreciate the Hive Keeper mod, so in a way it's kind of disrespectful for their work.
That's what I was saying, and I don't think I'm being hypocritical here... If I was, I would have told you to keep working on your project.
OK GUYZ... I didnt check this map but those are 2 maps based on same idea ?
If so.
Disbanding this map as being "worse" one is bad idea.
My suggestion is. Ask other guy so you guyz can work together if possible.
Or just continue working and try to differ in few things. So we dont get same maps, or competition between those two.
Also, any map can lead to something different and better trough experience you gather.
I also agree with Fuzzy. Dont defend yourself, try to find logic and try to twist few things so people get confused and maybe they can get different taste of your product.
Anyway, ignore all rude replys since you arent doing this for money, but for mapping experience and fun.
Oh, y and also. I think most of the people here are indie, instead they should be making groups with similar ideas.
what are you guys arguing about? O.o
Hey Pottfish, if you want to attract more map testers, you should get some screenshots and a video, if possible. It really gets a lot more people interested and has a higher chance of getting newsed.
The same is true about maps. People are far more likely to play your map if the title is something that sounds interesting to them. In the case of Dungeon Keeper, people who have played Dungeon Keeper in the past will be immediately interested, because the title is making a reference to a game they have previously played. However, their interest will fall short upon playing the game because as you said, the game only uses certain aspects of the game and is not a direct mod of the game. People tend to be grumpy when a map doesn't live up to its (albeit unfair) expectations.
On the other hand, people who have never heard of Dungeon Keeper may look at your map and not be interested at all. Of course, I know I am not talking about everyone when I say that, but the fact still stands that if a player cannot relate to a map in some way, the chance that he will be interested is much smaller.
Listen to the people on this forum, dude. We are here to help you with your project. Isn't that why you came to us in the first place? What FuzzYD said is an invaluable piece of advice. Let me expand on that a little bit. If many individuals are voicing the same opinion about a flaw in your design and you actively and aggressively defend that flaw, it makes people much less willing to voice their opinion to you ever again. Sadly, I speak these words from personal experience.
If you are so bent on using your map's title, at least rename it to something like "Dungeon Keeper Arena", where the title makes it obvious that the map is based off of Dungeon Keeper instead of being Dungeon Keeper itself.
@ZealNaga: Go
@tigerija: Go
@Abion47: Go
This is getting ridiculous. I thoroughly explained why I should not be listening to FuzzyD and why his advice is bad advice, although he seems like a good person. Regardless, all of these responses tell me to listen to him. I also explained I do not care about the popularity or success of the map, yet these responses continue to assume I do. You are all doing little more than parroting.
I have been trying to discover the logic behind all this complaining but I cannot. If I made a map called King of the Rings while someone else made a map called Lord of the Rings, I would not give a flying coconut. Also knowing the person did not care about the popularity or success of their worthless map, and that their map was completely different from my own anyway, I would not give a flying watermelon.
What I believe happened is that you people assumed my map was trying to be like this Hive Keeper, but now that you know it is not, you are trying to defend your views with, "You should do what we say because we are the majority" and, "Your map is doomed if you do not change your mind."
Yes, some people may come to this thread expecting something that is not here, and this is extremely common and constantly happens all over the Internet. I am not going to spend hours changing the name of my map and its characters and descriptions for something that takes maybe 10 seconds to realize. I have been looking and just found that both edit buttons are different, so putting (NOT HIVE KEEPER) is all I will do.
I have an idea. If you are all still going to be upset over this, how about complain and demand someone change their ways when they pour you a glass of orange, and you expect it to be juice only to discover it is soda?
I will not test this!
Nothing wrong with your map name... i don't know why so many are being rude and offensive, just let the guy do what he wants... seriously. Plus if you were really anticipating Hive keeper then you will NEVER confuse it with dungeon keeper since you are really anticipating it... how can you not know the name of the map you're anticipating.
Second, just because it's called Dungeon Keeper it doesn't mean that it has to be like the dungeon keeper game.
Oh, and i laughed so hard at this
Hey, post some videos and screens.
@Pottfish: Go
If you're getting annoyed by repeating, then here's something new - CHILL OUT DUDE!!!
You asked us to test it, and we voiced our opinion at a glaring problem that we saw without even playing the map. However, it is obvious that you do not care about our opinion, so why should we care about yours? Did you expect that we would play your map and declare with booming trumpets that it was a work of complete and flawless art?
I wonder what you would do if anyone actually played your map and gave critique on your game play. Would you bite off their head too? You came to us to help you make your map better, and we answered. If you aren't prepared to hear the answer, then don't ask the question.
I'll make it easier for you:
-the name of your map sounds like the old game, thus most players will expect a clone of it and/or the same overall quality... you said yourself it was not your goal, so the only feedback you'll get (if any) for a map that doesn't fit people's expectations will be "your map sucks". We were trying to warn you, you fought against it, and now you've lost the battle.
-the idea is already taken... there are lots of other ideas available, so if your goal is just to improve your skills with the editor just pick anything but this one... Have some respect for the people already working on it and stop arguing about it when we're warning you, it happens and you shouldn't make such a big deal out of it. You lost a battle here too.
-trying to play tough against an entire community won't serve your purpose. Good job, you lost the war. Proof:
@Abion47: Go
There is a difference between not caring about someone's opinion and believing it is wrong. I asked to have people test the map and tell me if there were any problems, not complain about the name of the map as if I cared about its success.
@ZealNaga: Go
I could write an entire book about why you are wrong in so many ways. First, I sincerely doubt "most players" who were to try the map would expect a clone or something of the same overall quality, because I doubt "most players" have ever played Dungeon Keeper. When I try a game called Lord of the Rings, I do not expect something dedicated to the movie, and when I tried Prisoner Rebellion, I did not expect a variation of Sheep Tag.
You said the idea is already taken - this is incorrect. I already stated my map has little to do with the actual Dungeon Keeper and is not similar to this Hive Keeper in any way. Apparently you are not comprehending this fact for some reason.
Lastly, you are considering yourself and a few others an "entire community" and proof that I lost the war based off the response of one person.
You have constantly made assumptions based upon limited information and, like I said, are parroting. I told you why you are wrong multiple times yet you ignore those points and repeat yourself. If I had the lost the "war", and it is sad that you think this is a "war", then the map would have a different name. As far as I know the map is still called Dungeon Keeper.
@Pottfish: Go
People arguing about its name should be banned from this site on the spot by derailing the entire thread even though the OP clearly doesn't intend to change the name.
Any project should be able to be named as they please, be it DOTA, Dungeon Keeper or even StarCraft II.
I would actually say there is a fourth option which you failed to address which is the following:
"When multiple independent parties voice out a flaw in your logic, it is likely that people are clinging to a minor flaw voiced by a single individual or a few vocal individuals and blowing it out of proportion. So while it is advisable to keep an open mind and try to understand why others believe it is an issue, sometimes it is important to stand one's ground after ample consideration of the matter at hand and stick to one's opinion."
At any rate, here is my take on the issue. Change the name if you feel like it, but it ultimately is your gain or loss and thus should be your decision to make. People who repeatedly comment on this topic are putting too much stress on a trivial issue.
And for those of you who still are misunderstanding the purpose of this map, it was not a direct competitor to Bibendus's Hive Keeper map (which, by the way, I am highly anticipating!). This map simply uses some basic ideas from DK and then evolved into a map with different gameplay mechanics. It is not meant to be a clone by any stretch.
@Szei: Go
The point everyone is making in summary, is this is NOT Dungeon keeper, but something else so why not name is something else? Why deliberately mislead people. Dungeon Keeper IS actually pretty well known you'd be surprised, especially as it was a similar RTS like game, so the player pool will generally have some what of a knowledge of those type of games atleast more likely.
If you join a map called 'Street Fighter' and find it's actually a Tower Defense but 'uses' Street Fight characters as the towers your first reaction would be Why the Hell is this not called Street Fighter Tower Defense or Street Fighter TD?
Do you not see that?
Your Lord of the Ring example, yes people do call their maps LOTR, but they often add a prefix after to give ppl a general hint of what it's about, LOTR RPG, LOTR Helms Deep, LOTR RISK etc. etc.
Second many have asked, can you post some screenshots please? What's the terrain like, how do the bases look, what about the units? etc. etc. How much effort does it look like you've put into this map.
If it looks really good people are alot more likely to go test it.
Will you be getting someone to put this on the EU realm for you, then I can test it and give you feedback.
Was that supposed to be a reply to me? It looks more like it is directed to the TC. But anyway, I agree with what you are saying, but I don't believe that is the main problem in itself the TC has with the responses to this thread. I agree that a more descriptive name should be used and that DK is probably more commonly heard of by SC2 players than one would expect (I think I've read about it. Is that the game where you build your own dungeon and then go there once a day?). However, the issue here is that a majority of the posts on this thread are entirely focused on the name and people are not addressing the actual topic. Good advice or not, this is not the place. If people feel so strongly about it they should PM him or construct a post like yours which talks about changing the name but then also discusses play-testing.
Ah haha. Ok. I WILL test this map. Oh wait! Does that mean he's won the war now? Or is it a tie? And oh my! This is a war in the first place! *psh* And to think you said Pottfish was making a big deal out of it.
I'm also not sure where you get the idea that Pottfish is disrespecting other mappers by making a custom map for fun just because it may be similar (I'm not saying it is, but this is your impression) to other maps currently in development. How is that disrespect? He's not saying, "My map is going to be better than your map!"
Now, it may be true that he will lose players due to the name. If he does lose players, it is his loss. Why do you care? If it is because you are trying to help him out then Pottfish should feel special having someone who cares so much about his map's success! If you feel your advice is valid and Pottfish still will not take it, then forget about it. You tried to help him and he refused. No need to pursue the matter.
But anyway, yes, I would like to play test your map.
Seems to me like 3 things happened to cause this whole discussion to go sideways:
Current consensus:
But...
That isn't to say that the op's map can't come out to be more popular in the long run.
Because...
@Pottfish: Go I think this whole discussion could've went in a totally different direction if you had actually included pictures and sample gameplay.
Your map sounds interesting, and has a lot of elements that could work quite well together without making the gameplay too complicated. Please show us more soon. And try not to let negative comments sway you, try to think of it as constructive criticism. The opinions of mappers that have seen maps rise to success or fall to page 23525419 is very worthy of "considering".
For balancing, you wanna release a beta to the public and work from there, this place is more for asking construction questions. So ask more specific questions, and give us more info aside from a short description.
@ZealNaga: Go Please don't make it a personal matter, Bibendus hasn't said anything. All that is happening right now is that he made a map influenced by the same game as Hive Keeper, and controversially named it Dungeon Keeper, potentially confusing a bunch of DK and Hive Keeper fans.
I like Hive Keeper's concept too, but lets be honest about a couple things:
Edited: to make it less "wall of text" like
@zeldarules28: Go
I added some screenshots with descriptions.
That makes sense. You're right. Maybe I'll rename it to Dungeon Wars or Dungeon Keeper Arena when I get around to updating it.