I have decided to start my "adventure" with a formal introduction, so here goes:
As noted in the topic title, my name is Maarten Tops.
I am 27 years old and I live in Veldhoven, The Netherlands.
I am currently following the International Game Architecture & Design course at the NHTV in Breda.
This is an educational program that will teach you to be a professional game artist or programmer.
As I am entering my last year, all that is left for me is the specialization and graduation project.
I have chosen to specialize and graduate in the field of Artificial Intelligence.
As a long-term fan of RTS games, it has been my dream for at least 10 years to develop an AI for a RTS game.
And now the perfect opportunity has arrived. Starcraft 2 (easily the best RTS game ever) comes with community tools that support the building of a custom AI.
My teachers have accepted my plan to research and build an AI for Starcraft 2 as my specialization and graduation.
Of all the Starcraft 2 fan sites, SC2Mapster seems to provide the best location for me to work on this project. A wiki for the AI functions, a good sense for any noteworthy SC2 project and a nice community. So for the next 35/40 weeks, I will be around this site a lot, and I hope you will enjoy having me.
In the first 15 weeks I will be doing research. For example, one of the questions I need answered is what RTS players consider to be a good and fun AI? Another research object is the capabilities of the SC2 AI. The wiki on this site is vital for this part. Currently most of the AI functions listed there are not documented. To build the best AI I can manage, I need to know the tools, so I will work on documenting those functions to I have a better idea what is and is not possible.
When that is done, I will start building the AI itself. In 20 (full-time) weeks it will be my mission to realize my dream. An AI that is actually fun to play against.
This will not be a small undertaking, and I sincerely hope that I can find support and guidance in this community. Because any project manager needs an honest "this is crap" every now and then to prevent said crap from being released to the public... ;)
Thanks for reading this! :)
PS If you want to know more about me, my past projects or what I have learned at school, feel free to visit my portfolio: http://www.blackward.com/portfolio
Welcome to Mapster, seems like you'll be great around the community. If you want, you can drop by our IRC, a bunch of the well known Mapster community members hang out there, ;).
whats up?
the AI's i've most enjoyed for RTS games growing up (throughout warcraft I, II, & III, C&C, etc) were ones that were REALLY HARD but also that DIDNT CHEAT (now they really werent out there, or capable of that, but thats what i was wanting to play). basically make them the best bad ass player you can make. it was kinda lame in war 3, when id go against multiple insane AI, and id harass a computer, killing their resource men, but it didnt matter as they cheated and got double resources. and when one guy can beat 2 or more of the 'hardest' Ai that cheat, well theres room to grow there. But, playing against a dumb AI thats easily duped with walls, or harassment etc... is lame as well.
Possibly to make AI's with 'gimicks' such as air focused units, an AI that harasses YOU, or ones that rush or wait 10 mins to build up a large army could be fun / options to change it up from 'the best build order every time' to add a bit of variety, kind of like personal player strategy but in the end, to me, its about an AI thats 'impossible to beat' (aka a HUGE CHALLENGE) but also that DOESNT CHEAT.
thats my 2 cents to say what ive enjoyed about aprticular AIs. Im sure if you put that time and effort into building a custom AI you will no doubtely build the premier AI for SC2 in due time. there was an AI contest a while back, you can always use that as a launch pad to see how people are doing it currently. see you around-
what could also be ground breaking for sc2 ai, would be when the next 'dota' (not necessarily that style of map) but the next HUGE custom map that becomes a staple of the community if you talked to the map maker and made good custom AI for those games. people have made AI for custom games, but they are pretty basic, itd be neat to see what someone can really do to a custom game with AI, it would open the door to everyone trying to keep up with that. :)
I will do anything in my power to make my AI unpredictable and as good as possible, but it's not possible to create an 'impossible to beat' AI that does not cheat. Don't underestimate the creativity of human players...
An AI that is impossible to beat for YOU would be a different story... ;)
But yes, economy harassment with air units is one of the things on my list. :)
Only way where AI would be impossible to defeat would be where he could predict every your move, and counter it.
But that would be cheating. Since AI is supposed to be Artificial Human Player.
And therefore that wont be a challenge.
Best possible way for AI would be that he could choose from few BASIC tactics. And then based on what he "sees" on map, or in your army arsenal. He could adapt his basic tactic to counter yours, or to choose few extra ways where he could go even further calculating with what you could counter his counter attack, and even then you could use fake moves that are risky. And if those moves fail, they take lot of sacrificing.
Coz, sometimes you can win only by playing on risky moves. Only humans do that, unlogical things, or partially logical...
So, my advice would be that you try to make AI that thinks for himself. Where he would sometimes get random idea that might trick the enemy.
Also, what I noticed in RTS games, that when AI is overpowered by enemy, he cant do thing. Humans in nature will do desperate acts when they dont have any other possible solution.
I hear you, tigerija. I was planning on making the AI plan his tactics based on what he has seen through scouting. I don't want the AI to have any unfair advantage over a human player. Except maybe an unlimited APM, because who knows what a human can achieve in that area with enough practice.
And yes, if not enough information has been gathered, a random strategy is picked so the AI has something to do without being completely predictable. Scouting to gather required information is high on the list of course, but the AI can do something else in that time as well. Probably harassing an expansion or the economy of the opponent.
When AI isnt smarter than human, actually AI isnt "smart" at all.
It has one advantage over human. It doesnt need controller :) . So AI can take those things into advantage, specially when it comes to scouting and harassing :P .
Cant wait to see some custom AI's, specially ones made by you.
Oh, yes - Marc W. is a pall of mine who studies at IGAD, though he's probably a few years below you if you're 27. He used to have long blonde hair but recently got a haircut. You might recognize him though. My dad works at the tourism division, not so much IGAD. Same faculty though.
Anyway, welcome to Sc2mapster :)
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...and I will be here for a while.
I have decided to start my "adventure" with a formal introduction, so here goes:
As noted in the topic title, my name is Maarten Tops.
I am 27 years old and I live in Veldhoven, The Netherlands.
I am currently following the International Game Architecture & Design course at the NHTV in Breda.
This is an educational program that will teach you to be a professional game artist or programmer.
As I am entering my last year, all that is left for me is the specialization and graduation project.
I have chosen to specialize and graduate in the field of Artificial Intelligence.
As a long-term fan of RTS games, it has been my dream for at least 10 years to develop an AI for a RTS game.
And now the perfect opportunity has arrived. Starcraft 2 (easily the best RTS game ever) comes with community tools that support the building of a custom AI.
My teachers have accepted my plan to research and build an AI for Starcraft 2 as my specialization and graduation.
Of all the Starcraft 2 fan sites, SC2Mapster seems to provide the best location for me to work on this project. A wiki for the AI functions, a good sense for any noteworthy SC2 project and a nice community. So for the next 35/40 weeks, I will be around this site a lot, and I hope you will enjoy having me.
In the first 15 weeks I will be doing research. For example, one of the questions I need answered is what RTS players consider to be a good and fun AI? Another research object is the capabilities of the SC2 AI. The wiki on this site is vital for this part. Currently most of the AI functions listed there are not documented. To build the best AI I can manage, I need to know the tools, so I will work on documenting those functions to I have a better idea what is and is not possible.
When that is done, I will start building the AI itself. In 20 (full-time) weeks it will be my mission to realize my dream. An AI that is actually fun to play against.
This will not be a small undertaking, and I sincerely hope that I can find support and guidance in this community. Because any project manager needs an honest "this is crap" every now and then to prevent said crap from being released to the public... ;)
Thanks for reading this! :)
PS If you want to know more about me, my past projects or what I have learned at school, feel free to visit my portfolio: http://www.blackward.com/portfolio
@MTops: Go
Good luck in your project, and welcome aboard!
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ModeratorsWelcome to Mapster, seems like you'll be great around the community. If you want, you can drop by our IRC, a bunch of the well known Mapster community members hang out there, ;).
Awesome. Good luck with the AI project. Are you making the AI for the default game types?
For melee games (at first at least). Adding support for coop play is planned.
Welcome, sounds cool
Heh, that's funny, you're taking your course at the school my paps works at.
Say hi to Marc W. for me, if you happen to know him.
whats up? the AI's i've most enjoyed for RTS games growing up (throughout warcraft I, II, & III, C&C, etc) were ones that were REALLY HARD but also that DIDNT CHEAT (now they really werent out there, or capable of that, but thats what i was wanting to play). basically make them the best bad ass player you can make. it was kinda lame in war 3, when id go against multiple insane AI, and id harass a computer, killing their resource men, but it didnt matter as they cheated and got double resources. and when one guy can beat 2 or more of the 'hardest' Ai that cheat, well theres room to grow there. But, playing against a dumb AI thats easily duped with walls, or harassment etc... is lame as well.
Possibly to make AI's with 'gimicks' such as air focused units, an AI that harasses YOU, or ones that rush or wait 10 mins to build up a large army could be fun / options to change it up from 'the best build order every time' to add a bit of variety, kind of like personal player strategy but in the end, to me, its about an AI thats 'impossible to beat' (aka a HUGE CHALLENGE) but also that DOESNT CHEAT.
thats my 2 cents to say what ive enjoyed about aprticular AIs. Im sure if you put that time and effort into building a custom AI you will no doubtely build the premier AI for SC2 in due time. there was an AI contest a while back, you can always use that as a launch pad to see how people are doing it currently. see you around-
what could also be ground breaking for sc2 ai, would be when the next 'dota' (not necessarily that style of map) but the next HUGE custom map that becomes a staple of the community if you talked to the map maker and made good custom AI for those games. people have made AI for custom games, but they are pretty basic, itd be neat to see what someone can really do to a custom game with AI, it would open the door to everyone trying to keep up with that. :)
Sorry, but he doesn't work at the IGAD course, so I'm afraid not... ;)
@ezbeats: Go
I will do anything in my power to make my AI unpredictable and as good as possible, but it's not possible to create an 'impossible to beat' AI that does not cheat. Don't underestimate the creativity of human players...
An AI that is impossible to beat for YOU would be a different story... ;)
But yes, economy harassment with air units is one of the things on my list. :)
Only way where AI would be impossible to defeat would be where he could predict every your move, and counter it.
But that would be cheating. Since AI is supposed to be Artificial Human Player.
And therefore that wont be a challenge.
Best possible way for AI would be that he could choose from few BASIC tactics. And then based on what he "sees" on map, or in your army arsenal. He could adapt his basic tactic to counter yours, or to choose few extra ways where he could go even further calculating with what you could counter his counter attack, and even then you could use fake moves that are risky. And if those moves fail, they take lot of sacrificing.
Coz, sometimes you can win only by playing on risky moves. Only humans do that, unlogical things, or partially logical...
So, my advice would be that you try to make AI that thinks for himself. Where he would sometimes get random idea that might trick the enemy.
Also, what I noticed in RTS games, that when AI is overpowered by enemy, he cant do thing. Humans in nature will do desperate acts when they dont have any other possible solution.
@tigerija: Go
I hear you, tigerija. I was planning on making the AI plan his tactics based on what he has seen through scouting. I don't want the AI to have any unfair advantage over a human player. Except maybe an unlimited APM, because who knows what a human can achieve in that area with enough practice.
And yes, if not enough information has been gathered, a random strategy is picked so the AI has something to do without being completely predictable. Scouting to gather required information is high on the list of course, but the AI can do something else in that time as well. Probably harassing an expansion or the economy of the opponent.
When AI isnt smarter than human, actually AI isnt "smart" at all.
It has one advantage over human. It doesnt need controller :) . So AI can take those things into advantage, specially when it comes to scouting and harassing :P .
Cant wait to see some custom AI's, specially ones made by you.
@MTops: Go
Oh, yes - Marc W. is a pall of mine who studies at IGAD, though he's probably a few years below you if you're 27. He used to have long blonde hair but recently got a haircut. You might recognize him though. My dad works at the tourism division, not so much IGAD. Same faculty though.
Anyway, welcome to Sc2mapster :)