There's one critical formula to map evolution, numbers. Specifically, number of mappers. There's very few mappers for sc2, whereas war3 and sc1 had a lot of mappers. When sc2 launched, there were already TONS of maps, and a lot have original ideas. A year after sc2, we have have a dozen mappers now and like no original ideas (there are original maps - just can't play them so the authors quit. And since no one plays them, no one is elaborate off them, so the map evolution stops dead). Without original ideas, there's no map evolution. TUG maps are still the same. Mineralz was interesting but needs a lot of map evolution to make it really good. We won't see it happen as no one will take mineralz and improve upon it.
With the departure of mappers, I just don't see map evolution really happening. The project page definitely have some really great and interesting concepts. But without other mappers to elaborate off the original idea, there is no map evolution.
And what's with soulcalbiur trolling? I was talking about defense maps, the first ever played was SST advanced. Omg, what a fun defense map that was and really brought people into the custom map scenes. Like a usual troll, he twists words and make up stuffs to whine about. Take your own advice, stupid troll...
Yeah, that's what the map evolution posts were about. No doubt DOTA took a lot of map evolution to make it what it is. I doubt a single author just came up with DOTA out of nowhere with no influence whatsoever from previous maps. Which brings back to the topic of the post and the failing of sc2 custom scene...
Anyways, there was a whole defense genre that evloved from the first SST advanced map. And from the defense genre, came the Tower Defense genre which is so popular these days.
The designers of War3 maps may have evolved. But most of those designers probably no longer play. SC2 is again 11-12 year old map makers who need to repeat the process.
I agree that number of mappers is likely why the sc2 mapping scene is so quiet.
To preface my next sentence, I'd like to say I prefer the sc2 editor. However, wc3's editor was easy to jump into which opened mapping up to a great many more people than sc2's editor has.
That said, I would be disappointed if Blizzard simplified the editor. Perhaps a "Editor Lite" is in order.
I wonder if, in some fashion, the fact that this is a Starcraft game limits the custom scene at all. I almost feel like the units and world of WC3 lent themselves more easily to new worlds and stories. While with SCII, the places you can take your map with it still being believable are relatively limited.
You clearly haven't played much Starcraft 1 or brood war. There were zombie maps, fantasy RPGs, turn based strategy, a diablo 1 remake, all your usual dodges, run zling runs, defences, naruto, dragonballz, super smash brothers, and way more. Sure, you had to use your imagination a little more for the fantasy maps, but you'd have to use your imagination a heap to have space stations in WCIII.
No, I'd say that the popularity system is the single worst thing that is killing the custom mapping scene. Sure the data editor is gay and all, but that in itself only deters a few people. But what deters many people is that their maps probably won't get ayed unless they can get them on the top three pages rapidly.
I refuse to play a map that use a Ghost model to be that Elf archer in Lord of the Rings.
Or crap like that.
As an aside, I don't think you are correct about the popularity system. Element TD rose to the top the day it was released. Unless Karawasa had a giant legion of people to host it (I'm sure he had a good number of people, but any map worth playing will have a decent number of testers that can boost the map when it's released).
There appears to not be a problem with good maps getting attention. Most people complaining do get the chance to show off their map. But people play the map, and just play it once because they don't like it. Then they blame the popularity system.
Just shut up about this crap already. Nobody cares. You just look like annoying whiners.
There weren't very many maps in WC3 that were very widely played. The same is true here. You have to do something very special to get a map to the top, and most of you just aren't good enough.
The problem with the popularity system is not the most popular maps get made popular thing, it's how hard it is for niche groups o players to find maps that they like, and add more players to their numbers. The majority of players play the first page or two of maps and that's it. With the old map list, people could see a diplo or a pacman or some other map which, while not immensely popular, appealed to a small group of players. But now you can't grow your userbase without making a map popular, and niche maps will never get popular, which means there's a vicious cycle in which niche map players shrink instead of grow.
I don't think it's true complexity or depth necessarily has to be reduced to make Galaxy more user-friendly. I think most of the complaints derive not from the fact that it is complex, but that it presents complex information in a way that is difficult to understand at times and to manage. I think they could "streamline" things without reducing what a mapper could do.
Who cares about that. Instead of worrying about people that don't bother how to use editor, worry about the people actually capable of accomplishing something.
I wasn't complaining about the editor. I was simply responding to Eiviyn's point. I have no problems with the editor, and what I've learned so far has not been particularly difficult.
i personally think its a combination of everything, some more than others though
-the number one issue is motivation to make a map or finish a map, the biggest thing that removes motivation is nobody playing your map ( whats the sense?) So the popularity system is at fault, at the start of sc2 , there was a shitload of interested mappers, however the popularity system has killed ALOT of projects . Thus alot of mappers have split. I remember when i first released my map, i waited almost a month to see it go anywhere, i swear to god i was on the verge of quitting . I cant imagin someone who has made a map and never got it popular, i would be gone long time
So the popularity system is the number 1 killer of this scene ( obviously not dead yet)
-the second issue is the time it takes to do anything in this editor, i personally find sc2 editor is easier than warcraft 3 editor in a lot of aspects, but at the same time sc2 editor takes wayyyyyyyyy longer to do anything in. They need to remove drop down tabs all together from this editor, That takes up soooooooo much time. In warcraft 3, everything is already made for the novice map maker, nothing needs to be created from scratch for basic maps..you just alter a lil bit with some stats and your done... In sc2 however, there are hardly any base abilities to use, and if you know how to tamper with the abilities, you basically know how to create them. If you have no knowledge of how these abilities were made in the data editor and you tried to tamper with them it will fuck everything up. So the second issue is definitely "Ease of making maps"
those 2 are the main reasons why sc2 in my opinion does not really have a long self live for the custom map scene if nothing is done about this.
and btw , warcraft 3 didnt really have that many great maps, i only played 2 of the maps a shitload ( dota and footmen frenzy) , the rest of the maps i played now and then.
sc2 is for the most part on an okay road, but blizzard has to realize they need to do something , cause this site is literally dead and its basically the only site primarily focused on sc2 modding.. anyone ever see thehelper.net site? thats a war3 modding site primarily and it has more action this site for a really old game.
I actually remember this. Around this time, you couldn't make custom abilities, import files, or convert triggers to JASS with the WE. You could only make custom units and items. DotA had custom abilities by extracting a file from the map, editing it in notepad, then re-importing it into the map with a third-party MPQ tool.
I think the custom map scene for SC2 is much more developed than WC3 in the given timespan, mainly because a lot of us came over from WC3 and much of the Galaxy Editor is similar to WE.
I made the argument before that there should be more categories for maps
like this, but people disagreed and then Blizzard disagreed so fuck it.
There should be at least 20 categories, lol. Or wtf, let you type the category. I don't understand why you can't filter them by typing the category -_-.
And they should really add a W3-clone list. I'm not asking to remove the others, but when I want to play, I want to play, not click in a random list and hope someone else will too.
I refuse to play a map that use a Ghost model to be that Elf archer in Lord of the Rings.
Does anyone play them? Honest, i'd really like to know.. i can't see the appeal in playing those map (and i confess i'm curious).. i can see the appeal in doing them real nice with the (candid) hope that another mapmaker will (spontaneously) come and finish it (implement the models ;^) )...
but i'm assuredly the dumbest (candidest) drone in the (known) universe on that one.
Just add a "looking for players" category for a lobby that's been open for more than 2 minutes or something.
A WC3 style list would just fill up with an even smaller selection of maps, I don't think anyone actually uses the other categories much so adding more won't help.
@Lonami: Go
You must be really bad at mapping in order to think that the WC3 editor was better than SC2's editor. . . especially the Data Editor. . .
Anyone who tries to argue the point that we're behind the WC3 progression is foolish. Are you really trying to say that 1 year after launch people had large communities dedicated to making WC3 Maps? That those same communities had already created tutorials for large portions of the editor? That Blizzard actually cared enough about UMS to even TRY to fix their stupid mistakes?
Oh yeah, that's right. . . none of the above is true.
As someone who has written tutorials (and will eventually write more), I find it shocking that so many of you seem to think we're developing slowly. Um, hello? My first month here I gave you guys attachments, custom movers, in depth actors, etc! Just imagine if Helral, OneTwo, Beider and so forth hadn't been creating the tutorials that they did? Many of you would STILL be failing your way through the editor if not given up.
People are mistaken when they think that good maps haven't been published in a while. The sad reality is that there are A LOT of good maps that have been published, but the popularity system killed them and you never got the chance to experience them.
We, as a community, really need to exercise more patience. I get that we're in the age of "NOW" but that will never be how anything works.
True story muze.... your first set of tutorials for sc2 were way more involved and informational then anything I can find on wc3 even today.
unless you count the jass stuff......
which jass I found a few examples such as .... the Dota jugernaut "omnislash"
I took the time to learn how to implement jass just never really spent enough time to fully learn it.... never found too many tutorials to learn from very easily either, and thats after the game was out for 6+ years.
so yeah......
just about everything you could want a tutorial on for sc2 there is one
anything not covered is extremely complicated actor / model information most of which wasnt even feesable in wc3....
personally I cant wait to see what the expansions all bring to the editor.
Whats all the fuss about it being "hard." I don't get it, maybe wc3 was easy, but I think galaxy edit is perfectly reasonably hard for the power it gives you.
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@Pshyched: Go
There's one critical formula to map evolution, numbers. Specifically, number of mappers. There's very few mappers for sc2, whereas war3 and sc1 had a lot of mappers. When sc2 launched, there were already TONS of maps, and a lot have original ideas. A year after sc2, we have have a dozen mappers now and like no original ideas (there are original maps - just can't play them so the authors quit. And since no one plays them, no one is elaborate off them, so the map evolution stops dead). Without original ideas, there's no map evolution. TUG maps are still the same. Mineralz was interesting but needs a lot of map evolution to make it really good. We won't see it happen as no one will take mineralz and improve upon it.
With the departure of mappers, I just don't see map evolution really happening. The project page definitely have some really great and interesting concepts. But without other mappers to elaborate off the original idea, there is no map evolution.
And what's with soulcalbiur trolling? I was talking about defense maps, the first ever played was SST advanced. Omg, what a fun defense map that was and really brought people into the custom map scenes. Like a usual troll, he twists words and make up stuffs to whine about. Take your own advice, stupid troll...
You all are probably forgetting that we were all almost 10 years younger at this point in WC3 and 15 at this point in SC1.
Those maps you remember being amazing would probably look pretty stupid from your perspective at this age.
@Vexal: Go
Yeah, that's what the map evolution posts were about. No doubt DOTA took a lot of map evolution to make it what it is. I doubt a single author just came up with DOTA out of nowhere with no influence whatsoever from previous maps. Which brings back to the topic of the post and the failing of sc2 custom scene...
Anyways, there was a whole defense genre that evloved from the first SST advanced map. And from the defense genre, came the Tower Defense genre which is so popular these days.
@sandround: Go
The designers of War3 maps may have evolved. But most of those designers probably no longer play. SC2 is again 11-12 year old map makers who need to repeat the process.
I agree that number of mappers is likely why the sc2 mapping scene is so quiet.
To preface my next sentence, I'd like to say I prefer the sc2 editor. However, wc3's editor was easy to jump into which opened mapping up to a great many more people than sc2's editor has.
That said, I would be disappointed if Blizzard simplified the editor. Perhaps a "Editor Lite" is in order.
You clearly haven't played much Starcraft 1 or brood war. There were zombie maps, fantasy RPGs, turn based strategy, a diablo 1 remake, all your usual dodges, run zling runs, defences, naruto, dragonballz, super smash brothers, and way more. Sure, you had to use your imagination a little more for the fantasy maps, but you'd have to use your imagination a heap to have space stations in WCIII.
No, I'd say that the popularity system is the single worst thing that is killing the custom mapping scene. Sure the data editor is gay and all, but that in itself only deters a few people. But what deters many people is that their maps probably won't get ayed unless they can get them on the top three pages rapidly.
I refuse to play a map that use a Ghost model to be that Elf archer in Lord of the Rings.
Or crap like that.
As an aside, I don't think you are correct about the popularity system. Element TD rose to the top the day it was released. Unless Karawasa had a giant legion of people to host it (I'm sure he had a good number of people, but any map worth playing will have a decent number of testers that can boost the map when it's released).
There appears to not be a problem with good maps getting attention. Most people complaining do get the chance to show off their map. But people play the map, and just play it once because they don't like it. Then they blame the popularity system.
Just shut up about this crap already. Nobody cares. You just look like annoying whiners.
There weren't very many maps in WC3 that were very widely played. The same is true here. You have to do something very special to get a map to the top, and most of you just aren't good enough.
The problem with the popularity system is not the most popular maps get made popular thing, it's how hard it is for niche groups o players to find maps that they like, and add more players to their numbers. The majority of players play the first page or two of maps and that's it. With the old map list, people could see a diplo or a pacman or some other map which, while not immensely popular, appealed to a small group of players. But now you can't grow your userbase without making a map popular, and niche maps will never get popular, which means there's a vicious cycle in which niche map players shrink instead of grow.
@JackRCDF: Go
I made the argument before that there should be more categories for maps like this, but people disagreed and then Blizzard disagreed so fuck it.
@Eiviyn: Go
I don't think it's true complexity or depth necessarily has to be reduced to make Galaxy more user-friendly. I think most of the complaints derive not from the fact that it is complex, but that it presents complex information in a way that is difficult to understand at times and to manage. I think they could "streamline" things without reducing what a mapper could do.
Who cares about that. Instead of worrying about people that don't bother how to use editor, worry about the people actually capable of accomplishing something.
The editor is fine the way it is.
@Vexal: Go
I wasn't complaining about the editor. I was simply responding to Eiviyn's point. I have no problems with the editor, and what I've learned so far has not been particularly difficult.
i personally think its a combination of everything, some more than others though
-the number one issue is motivation to make a map or finish a map, the biggest thing that removes motivation is nobody playing your map ( whats the sense?) So the popularity system is at fault, at the start of sc2 , there was a shitload of interested mappers, however the popularity system has killed ALOT of projects . Thus alot of mappers have split. I remember when i first released my map, i waited almost a month to see it go anywhere, i swear to god i was on the verge of quitting . I cant imagin someone who has made a map and never got it popular, i would be gone long time
So the popularity system is the number 1 killer of this scene ( obviously not dead yet)
-the second issue is the time it takes to do anything in this editor, i personally find sc2 editor is easier than warcraft 3 editor in a lot of aspects, but at the same time sc2 editor takes wayyyyyyyyy longer to do anything in. They need to remove drop down tabs all together from this editor, That takes up soooooooo much time. In warcraft 3, everything is already made for the novice map maker, nothing needs to be created from scratch for basic maps..you just alter a lil bit with some stats and your done... In sc2 however, there are hardly any base abilities to use, and if you know how to tamper with the abilities, you basically know how to create them. If you have no knowledge of how these abilities were made in the data editor and you tried to tamper with them it will fuck everything up. So the second issue is definitely "Ease of making maps"
those 2 are the main reasons why sc2 in my opinion does not really have a long self live for the custom map scene if nothing is done about this.
and btw , warcraft 3 didnt really have that many great maps, i only played 2 of the maps a shitload ( dota and footmen frenzy) , the rest of the maps i played now and then.
sc2 is for the most part on an okay road, but blizzard has to realize they need to do something , cause this site is literally dead and its basically the only site primarily focused on sc2 modding.. anyone ever see thehelper.net site? thats a war3 modding site primarily and it has more action this site for a really old game.
I actually remember this. Around this time, you couldn't make custom abilities, import files, or convert triggers to JASS with the WE. You could only make custom units and items. DotA had custom abilities by extracting a file from the map, editing it in notepad, then re-importing it into the map with a third-party MPQ tool.
I think the custom map scene for SC2 is much more developed than WC3 in the given timespan, mainly because a lot of us came over from WC3 and much of the Galaxy Editor is similar to WE.
Oh, sorry I misspelled it, I was busy being sarcastic.
There should be at least 20 categories, lol. Or wtf, let you type the category. I don't understand why you can't filter them by typing the category -_-.
And they should really add a W3-clone list. I'm not asking to remove the others, but when I want to play, I want to play, not click in a random list and hope someone else will too.
Does anyone play them? Honest, i'd really like to know.. i can't see the appeal in playing those map (and i confess i'm curious).. i can see the appeal in doing them real nice with the (candid) hope that another mapmaker will (spontaneously) come and finish it (implement the models ;^) )...
but i'm assuredly the dumbest (candidest) drone in the (known) universe on that one.
i call it fache bouc (as in angrying goat)
Sorry, ill drool back in oblivion right after this:
Only solution to your "popularity system" issue: hosting players
(that make new players want to learn/master a particular mod)
There is nothing that beats the age old "word to mouth"... that's how all the good things bloom!
(this coming from a notorious blabbermouth ;^p )
Just add a "looking for players" category for a lobby that's been open for more than 2 minutes or something.
A WC3 style list would just fill up with an even smaller selection of maps, I don't think anyone actually uses the other categories much so adding more won't help.
@Lonami: Go You must be really bad at mapping in order to think that the WC3 editor was better than SC2's editor. . . especially the Data Editor. . .
Anyone who tries to argue the point that we're behind the WC3 progression is foolish. Are you really trying to say that 1 year after launch people had large communities dedicated to making WC3 Maps? That those same communities had already created tutorials for large portions of the editor? That Blizzard actually cared enough about UMS to even TRY to fix their stupid mistakes?
Oh yeah, that's right. . . none of the above is true.
As someone who has written tutorials (and will eventually write more), I find it shocking that so many of you seem to think we're developing slowly. Um, hello? My first month here I gave you guys attachments, custom movers, in depth actors, etc! Just imagine if Helral, OneTwo, Beider and so forth hadn't been creating the tutorials that they did? Many of you would STILL be failing your way through the editor if not given up.
People are mistaken when they think that good maps haven't been published in a while. The sad reality is that there are A LOT of good maps that have been published, but the popularity system killed them and you never got the chance to experience them.
We, as a community, really need to exercise more patience. I get that we're in the age of "NOW" but that will never be how anything works.
@ProzaicMuze: Go
True story muze.... your first set of tutorials for sc2 were way more involved and informational then anything I can find on wc3 even today.
unless you count the jass stuff......
which jass I found a few examples such as .... the Dota jugernaut "omnislash"
I took the time to learn how to implement jass just never really spent enough time to fully learn it.... never found too many tutorials to learn from very easily either, and thats after the game was out for 6+ years.
so yeah......
just about everything you could want a tutorial on for sc2 there is one
anything not covered is extremely complicated actor / model information most of which wasnt even feesable in wc3....
personally I cant wait to see what the expansions all bring to the editor.
Whats all the fuss about it being "hard." I don't get it, maybe wc3 was easy, but I think galaxy edit is perfectly reasonably hard for the power it gives you.