We all know about WC3 and DotA. The map was (arguably) a new genre.
I'm sure half the people who read the above line immediately thought "Oh but AoS!". Let's be honest, AoS was shallow and sucky. As were the many pre-DotA (and most of the DotA) copies before the infamous AllStars variant. Basically, DotA started out rubbish.
Fast forward to SC2. We have no new genre maps. Or do we? What about that old gem Nexus Wars which we all love to hate?
I really feel that this genre is abandoned by mappers. I only know of 3 Tug of War maps. I never see any new developments for Tug of War maps. Why is that? Well, I'd wager it's because they're skill-less, trashy messes. Just like the early DotA maps were.
Why is it that so few people are willing to devote time to an under-developed yet still insanely popular map type? There are plenty of bright minds around this place, I'm positive that some could turn Tug of War into a skillful affair, or at least pave the way for future development of the genre.
I thought Nexus Word Wars was a step in the right direction, though didn't quite hit the mark. Not that I'm suggesting turning the genre into a typing tutor, more including player ability into gameplay so that the better team wins.
What are your thoughts on the future of SC2 mapping? What do you think the popularity list will look like in a year's time? Because let's be honest, the list we have now is very similar to the list we had a year ago.
I really feel that this genre is abandoned by mappers. I only know of 3 Tug of War maps. I never see any new developments for Tug of War maps. Why is that? Well, I'd wager it's because they're skill-less, trashy messes. Just like the early DotA maps were.
Why is it that so few people are willing to devote time to an under-developed yet still insanely popular map type? There are plenty of bright minds around this place, I'm positive that some could turn Tug of War into a skillful affair, or at least pave the way for future development of the genre.
emm... click on my SIGNATURE.
Quote:
Fast forward to SC2. We have no new genre maps. Or do we? What about that old gem Nexus Wars which we all love to hate?
Tug of War is not a new genre. CastleFight and Civilization Wars was quite popular wc3 tug of war maps.
I'd put Castle Fight on the same level as AoS. Underdeveloped and not yet at it's full potential, or anywhere near really. Same with the current popular selection of Tug of War maps.
As for new genre, by that I meant there's no mainstream video games which use similar mechanics.
We all know about WC3 and DotA. The map was (arguably) a new genre.
I'm sure half the people who read the above line immediately thought "Oh but AoS!". Let's be honest, AoS was shallow and sucky. As were the many pre-DotA (and most of the DotA) copies before the infamous AllStars variant. Basically, DotA started out rubbish.
I'd like to add in some correction here - the AoS we had on Warcraft 3 before the first and original Defense of the Ancients were crap. The original DOTA was actually a really good and really polished map. The "ability tooltips have fancy colours and lore background text" style of polished. It wasn't until that was out for a couple of months that people actually started producing off-spring of the genre. Some were pretty good (Tides of Blood) while most were crappy (the one million unofficial DOTA remakes that eventually spawned DotA AllStars).
I really feel that this genre is abandoned by mappers. I only know of 3 Tug of War maps. I never see any new developments for Tug of War maps. Why is that? Well, I'd wager it's because they're skill-less, trashy messes. Just like the early DotA maps were.
Why is it that so few people are willing to devote time to an under-developed yet still insanely popular map type? There are plenty of bright minds around this place, I'm positive that some could turn Tug of War into a skillful affair, or at least pave the way for future development of the genre.
What are your thoughts on the future of SC2 mapping? What do you think the popularity list will look like in a year's time? Because let's be honest, the list we have now is very similar to the list we had a year ago.
To be fair, in a year's time is a bit of a 'cheating' question as that should be post-map marketplace which could change the whole scene. Assuming no marketplace at all though (which I guess is what you were aiming at), I think we'll still have some tug of wars, but we'll proceed to see creativity. RPGs will be around just as defense maps and all. Anything that's somewhat polished, unique and fun will still stick around the top.
I'm currently making a Tug of War that I hope will revolutionize the genre for SC2 Mappers to the point they will want to make more. I am not saying anymore though. :)
Well, I started thinking about this. I think the reason why people don't want to make TUG's is because they are afraid to become creative. They think that a TUG should be like Nexus Wars and that's all there is. I could think of 100 ways to improve Nexus Wars, which I think would turn out for the better. Really all it is is having people look at the bigger picture.
A lot of people look at TUG's to see what they are like, and 90% of the TUG's are like Nexus Wars so that is basically the building blocks of what people have to work off of. There are no other popular TUG's that have done well. Therefore I feel that people are scared to become creative or come out of the box, and I am not referring to the people here at SC2Mapster. Just reading question threads makes me think, "Dang, these people are creative!" Not because of the question, but because the idea is so outstanding.
Most of the mappers seem to not post here, a lot of the good ones who have published really good maps usually lurk the BattleNet forums and maybe lurk around here, but never really post or promote their map.
Well, there is also:
- Mastery of war.
- Desert Strike.
- War of the Artifacts.
- Temple Fight.
- Nexus Wars and all its variants.
- Colonial line wars.
- Red vs Blue.
- BattleCraft.
What I'm feeling about Starcraft II custom map community is that now there are much more games of the same genre than in wc3 or sc1. There are about 100 dotas, 100 footmen, 100 special forces, 100 island td, and also there are lots of tug of wars.
At this point I'd settle for a Tug map that doesn't involve 999999999999999999 units per side turning it into a chugfest. Anyone hoping to make a half-decent improvement over Nexus Wars needs to deal with that issue in their mechanics. Uncontrolled auto-spawning = waves of 88 billion units = 0.25 FPS = not fun.
Tug of War means exactly what Chiquihuite dislikes: Auto-spawning uncontrollable units "turning into a chugfest".
However there are ways to reduce the amount of units in a tug of war map, so it won''t cause so much lag:
- Add stronger units for the late game instead of many weak units.
- Add a maximum life time to units.
- ...
Well as said, interestingly there was alot of crap AoS maps to start with, then Dota comes out which blew everyone away!
Me and Gizmo noted that the Tug of War genre hasn't really been produced anything amazing just yet, but theres alot of untapped potential there. So we're intending to take that niche in the map section very soon with our upcoming project!
But as with the open question. There hasn't really been alot of time yet.
wow please IliliII..
no offense, i dont know your map but coming into this discussion and telling how awesome your map is kinda sucks.
and if it would be that awesome it would have more playtime than (right now) 18 hours on the tug page.
to the discussion..
i think some people are too much "dota-ized" due to tons of these maps now and back in wc3 or bw.
most of them are just dota clones, even the layout is the same. but now everyone hears the basic gameplay of a tug map and thinks dota clone.
i was looking for help some while ago for my herowars and found a guy that i was introducing in the features of my map and after telling him the basics of a TUG he declined to help me due to my map being "just another dota clone".
also i think the community has an big problem right now, that is not the innovation of maps, it is more the forming of teams and working with others.
if we would have more people making "teams" working on ONE map and not hundreds all working on their own maps we would have way more of these working and polished maps.
about the chugfest thats nonsense.. only nexus wars has this problem that if the game takes a while there are tons and tons of units.
there are several other tug´s that have these uncrntrollable unit waves but they are small and the main priority lies on the hero battles.
wow please IliliII..
no offense, i dont know your map but coming into this discussion and telling how awesome your map is kinda sucks.
and if it would be that awesome it would have more playtime than (right now) 18 hours on the tug page.
I just try to make the most of this opportunity to promote my map. :) Blizzard told us to do so.
"why you guys don't make new innovative maps"
"same maps i saw on warcraft 3 = same maps on sc2"
"complicated is always better"
Its always Somebody else needs to do something about it, and never the critic. Hello critic, go make revolutionary tug map and get back to us. You are after all at a sc2 mapping site, where you have all the tutorials at your disposal in creating such a map
Let me explain the typical little jimmy map maker who thinks hes going to change the map scene, such a dent
-little jimmy enters sc2 editor, he has a burning passion for 1 month, hell even 2 months, he then reaches a point where he can have a so called released version, But then realizes that he cant even test a single game due to popularity system, so little jimmy continues on with the map, but without testing 60000 bugs get by undetected, Then when x party of scrubs like your self deside to play the map, Its dubbed a buggy bland game and never to be picked up again. Then the map maker gets discouraged, due to never getting popularity for the map. And he quits or puts his project on hold.
Thats the story of basically every mapper , If not now, eventually.
Thats why no new maps
Thats why this site is dieing
thats why blizzard popularity system is raping the custom game scene
and thats why no innovatate when tried/proven maps stand more of a chance to not be a waste of time
And lastly, every map does not have to be "innovation". If anyone is familiar with the KISS rule they will see that by keeping it simple stupid means more players to play you map, so mappers please, cut down on the 6000 pieces of UI for everything, unless you want too overwhelm your audience with information overload= rage quits at the start.
We all know about WC3 and DotA. The map was (arguably) a new genre.
I'm sure half the people who read the above line immediately thought "Oh but AoS!". Let's be honest, AoS was shallow and sucky. As were the many pre-DotA (and most of the DotA) copies before the infamous AllStars variant. Basically, DotA started out rubbish.
Fast forward to SC2. We have no new genre maps. Or do we? What about that old gem Nexus Wars which we all love to hate?
I really feel that this genre is abandoned by mappers. I only know of 3 Tug of War maps. I never see any new developments for Tug of War maps. Why is that? Well, I'd wager it's because they're skill-less, trashy messes. Just like the early DotA maps were.
Why is it that so few people are willing to devote time to an under-developed yet still insanely popular map type? There are plenty of bright minds around this place, I'm positive that some could turn Tug of War into a skillful affair, or at least pave the way for future development of the genre.
I thought Nexus Word Wars was a step in the right direction, though didn't quite hit the mark. Not that I'm suggesting turning the genre into a typing tutor, more including player ability into gameplay so that the better team wins.
What are your thoughts on the future of SC2 mapping? What do you think the popularity list will look like in a year's time? Because let's be honest, the list we have now is very similar to the list we had a year ago.
emm... click on my SIGNATURE.
Tug of War is not a new genre. CastleFight and Civilization Wars was quite popular wc3 tug of war maps.
The game is still young. Patience.
I'd put Castle Fight on the same level as AoS. Underdeveloped and not yet at it's full potential, or anywhere near really. Same with the current popular selection of Tug of War maps.
As for new genre, by that I meant there's no mainstream video games which use similar mechanics.
I'd like to add in some correction here - the AoS we had on Warcraft 3 before the first and original Defense of the Ancients were crap. The original DOTA was actually a really good and really polished map. The "ability tooltips have fancy colours and lore background text" style of polished. It wasn't until that was out for a couple of months that people actually started producing off-spring of the genre. Some were pretty good (Tides of Blood) while most were crappy (the one million unofficial DOTA remakes that eventually spawned DotA AllStars).
AoS 2?
To be fair, in a year's time is a bit of a 'cheating' question as that should be post-map marketplace which could change the whole scene. Assuming no marketplace at all though (which I guess is what you were aiming at), I think we'll still have some tug of wars, but we'll proceed to see creativity. RPGs will be around just as defense maps and all. Anything that's somewhat polished, unique and fun will still stick around the top.
I'm currently making a Tug of War that I hope will revolutionize the genre for SC2 Mappers to the point they will want to make more. I am not saying anymore though. :)
Well, I started thinking about this. I think the reason why people don't want to make TUG's is because they are afraid to become creative. They think that a TUG should be like Nexus Wars and that's all there is. I could think of 100 ways to improve Nexus Wars, which I think would turn out for the better. Really all it is is having people look at the bigger picture.
A lot of people look at TUG's to see what they are like, and 90% of the TUG's are like Nexus Wars so that is basically the building blocks of what people have to work off of. There are no other popular TUG's that have done well. Therefore I feel that people are scared to become creative or come out of the box, and I am not referring to the people here at SC2Mapster. Just reading question threads makes me think, "Dang, these people are creative!" Not because of the question, but because the idea is so outstanding.
Most of the mappers seem to not post here, a lot of the good ones who have published really good maps usually lurk the BattleNet forums and maybe lurk around here, but never really post or promote their map.
Thats not true that there're not people making tug of war maps.
Here at sc2mapster, we have already two amazing tug of war maps in developement:
- Genetic Lab Wars
- CoreFight :)
- Income Wars.
I think both of them are very "creative" as they add new features to the original concept of "tug of war". Nexus wars is just a bad tug of war map.
@IliIilI: Go
I don't think he was referring to the select few at SC2Mapster, I think he was talking about the community as a whole.
Well, there is also:
- Mastery of war.
- Desert Strike.
- War of the Artifacts.
- Temple Fight.
- Nexus Wars and all its variants.
- Colonial line wars.
- Red vs Blue.
- BattleCraft.
What I'm feeling about Starcraft II custom map community is that now there are much more games of the same genre than in wc3 or sc1. There are about 100 dotas, 100 footmen, 100 special forces, 100 island td, and also there are lots of tug of wars.
At this point I'd settle for a Tug map that doesn't involve 999999999999999999 units per side turning it into a chugfest. Anyone hoping to make a half-decent improvement over Nexus Wars needs to deal with that issue in their mechanics. Uncontrolled auto-spawning = waves of 88 billion units = 0.25 FPS = not fun.
Out of curiosity, what does Tug of War mean to you guys?
Tug of War means exactly what Chiquihuite dislikes: Auto-spawning uncontrollable units "turning into a chugfest".
However there are ways to reduce the amount of units in a tug of war map, so it won''t cause so much lag:
- Add stronger units for the late game instead of many weak units.
- Add a maximum life time to units.
- ...
Well as said, interestingly there was alot of crap AoS maps to start with, then Dota comes out which blew everyone away!
Me and Gizmo noted that the Tug of War genre hasn't really been produced anything amazing just yet, but theres alot of untapped potential there. So we're intending to take that niche in the map section very soon with our upcoming project!
But as with the open question. There hasn't really been alot of time yet.
wow please IliliII..
no offense, i dont know your map but coming into this discussion and telling how awesome your map is kinda sucks.
and if it would be that awesome it would have more playtime than (right now) 18 hours on the tug page.
to the discussion..
i think some people are too much "dota-ized" due to tons of these maps now and back in wc3 or bw.
most of them are just dota clones, even the layout is the same. but now everyone hears the basic gameplay of a tug map and thinks dota clone.
i was looking for help some while ago for my herowars and found a guy that i was introducing in the features of my map and after telling him the basics of a TUG he declined to help me due to my map being "just another dota clone".
also i think the community has an big problem right now, that is not the innovation of maps, it is more the forming of teams and working with others.
if we would have more people making "teams" working on ONE map and not hundreds all working on their own maps we would have way more of these working and polished maps.
about the chugfest thats nonsense.. only nexus wars has this problem that if the game takes a while there are tons and tons of units.
there are several other tug´s that have these uncrntrollable unit waves but they are small and the main priority lies on the hero battles.
I just try to make the most of this opportunity to promote my map. :) Blizzard told us to do so.
@IliIilI: Go
When they said that, I remembered back to this:
i love the critics
"why you guys don't make new innovative maps" "same maps i saw on warcraft 3 = same maps on sc2" "complicated is always better"
Its always Somebody else needs to do something about it, and never the critic. Hello critic, go make revolutionary tug map and get back to us. You are after all at a sc2 mapping site, where you have all the tutorials at your disposal in creating such a map
Let me explain the typical little jimmy map maker who thinks hes going to change the map scene, such a dent
-little jimmy enters sc2 editor, he has a burning passion for 1 month, hell even 2 months, he then reaches a point where he can have a so called released version, But then realizes that he cant even test a single game due to popularity system, so little jimmy continues on with the map, but without testing 60000 bugs get by undetected, Then when x party of scrubs like your self deside to play the map, Its dubbed a buggy bland game and never to be picked up again. Then the map maker gets discouraged, due to never getting popularity for the map. And he quits or puts his project on hold.
Thats the story of basically every mapper , If not now, eventually.
Thats why no new maps Thats why this site is dieing thats why blizzard popularity system is raping the custom game scene and thats why no innovatate when tried/proven maps stand more of a chance to not be a waste of time
And lastly, every map does not have to be "innovation". If anyone is familiar with the KISS rule they will see that by keeping it simple stupid means more players to play you map, so mappers please, cut down on the 6000 pieces of UI for everything, unless you want too overwhelm your audience with information overload= rage quits at the start.
@Jinxxx123: Go
I guess you're addressing me. I do have a little experience with the editor.
Eiviyn is the god of the data editor here at sc2mapster. Catalyst, VoidCraft, PortalCraft...