I take open source code all the time and remove all of the Liscense bs and change variables names, and rewrite 20% of it to meet my needs.
The whole open source thing is a funny thing to me but meh.
I dont see what your trying to argue here to be honest. .....you seem to be argueing that none of us should take pride in our work. And that we should all bow down and kiss the "open-source" god's gaping ass hole.
Meh, I release stuff i do on bnet as locked, because I want to. I share stuff on mapster because I want to.
If you wanna tell me, im wrong thats fine. If you yell it at me well.... Im pretty stubborn so why waste your breath?
Oh and in art school, did they not teach you how to summarize..... filthy libral art schools
Open source is good for something as inconsequential as mapping/modding.
Open source != not taking pride in one's work.
Closing maps off only slows down how quickly maps can develop.
There are other ways to protect your credit besides protecting a map.
Thanks for insulting me, though. By the way, the previous statement was of a sarcastic nature.
Man this thread is still going? Anyway, whether or not locking works... the point about trying to protect your bank data is important. I want people to enjoy my RPG free of cheaters with level 99999 Hero who just looked at my bank trigger code and made their own hero. Well, we all know it happens eventually, but if locking can work well and banks could be stored on Bnet, then at least it would be delayed for a while.
Mapping may seem like small fries to a lot of people... but if you take your work seriously and have something good, it can spawn a multimillion dollar product. Look at all of the DOTA clones. Look at the dozens of tower defenses that cost money on the iphone store. Imagine if you branded something popular and could take it further outside of sc2...
Mapping may seem like small fries to a lot of people... but if you take your work seriously and have something good, it can spawn a multimillion dollar product. Look at all of the DOTA clones. Look at the dozens of tower defenses that cost money on the iphone store. Imagine if you branded something popular and could take it further outside of sc2...
Imagine if Pendragon and IceFrog did not know about Map locking back when the map first began? Someone could've stolen their map and developed it better. Zing. The pros of learning about map locking.
While that would've never happened, because as s3rius said, the people that steal maps are ones who have no idea what they are doing. With that in mind, there's not much to worry about.
Imagine if Pendragon and IceFrog did not know about Map locking back when the map first began? Someone could've stolen their map and developed it better. Zing. The pros of learning about map locking.
That would've been disastrous.
DotA has the best map protection I could think of - everyone downloads it from GetDotA, and no dota fan joins a game where he has to download the map first, because it's either an old version, a hacked version or a wrong name.
But if cheat packs and plagiates appeared long before DotA became what it is today, then this would have seriously undermined it's success - maybe it would still be a "small fry" like battleships.
I hardly think someone would actually have made something better out of it.
Do I think map unlocking should be promoted? No. But what I don't understand is why so many of you think that these unlocked maps would not be useful for people who want to learn. One of the best ways to learn is through example. Allowing others to see unlocked maps would prove extremely beneficial to people who already have a fairly good grasp of the map editor, but don't know how to do particular things. Now, that being said, I still disagree with the idea of unlocking maps against a mapmaker's will.
Here's an analogy. In the days before lightbulbs, an inventor decides, "It's annoying using candles all the time. I'm going to invent a source of light that can be switched on and off at a moment's notice." Every night the inventor locks his workshop when he goes home. Joe, who has heard of the inventor's work, says, "Hey! If I break into the workshop and utilize some of his ideas on the lightbulb, maybe I can invent another useful creation that will likewise benefit mankind!" A friend of Joe's, known as 'Mapster', specializes in breaking and entering and decides to help Joe.
Okay, so Joe may have a noble cause. He simply wants to create something free for others to benefit from (like creating a fun map for others to play). All that Joe needs is some help in the form of the inventor's ideas. Joe isn't planning on stealing the idea for the lightbulb. He isn't going to take away from the inventor's glory. He's going to make something of his own that merely uses some of the knowledge he gains from looking at the inventor's work. Nothing wrong there. All he needs to do is BREAK INTO THE INVENTOR'S WORKSHOP. Oh wait, maybe that is wrong?
I'm sorry, I recognize the benefit of learning from others, but the fact is that if map creators do not want others to see their work, it is their right to attempt (EVEN IF IT IS FUTILE) to lock their maps just as it is the right of a homeowner to lock his or her house AND you should respect that right. You could say that if a criminal really wants to, he or she could break into one's house so it is futile to lock one's doors... In that case we should write a guide on how to break into homes? This isn't as different as you might make it out to be. Now hear me out. Normally when we think of breaking into a house, we think of an intent to steal. Now, in both cases, maps and one's house, things can be stolen. But, at the same time, someone might merely want to use something and then move on. Let's just say that the person who breaks in simply wants to use the swimming pool to get a workout. Maybe he or she wants to use the microwave to warm up some frozen food because his or her microwave broke. Maybe he or she wants to watch the news so that he or she can be aware of current events. All of this is to gain some benefit without harming the owner just as learning from another user's map is for a benefit and doesn't necessarily hurt the owner. In this way, these two ideas are very similar. You say that there is nothing wrong with promoting how to unlock a map. Yet I doubt you would be okay with someone using your kitchen, pool, or entertainment center without your knowledge even if he or she didn't damage or steal anything.
This isn't about CS vs. OS. It's about respecting privacy.
I really had a 3 page essay regarding why this post should be deleted but I didn't want to bother into another endless debate. All I'm going to say right now is this:
Even if you were in for making maps safer and better protected why do you specifically allow that second attachment. Sure it is an example of how to unprotect a map but that is a complete disrespect your site is showing towards the maker of that map, unless of course he is allowing it to be there.
You want to have your little discussion on open source that's fine. You want to have a specific protected map along with your open source discussion. That isn't right.**
Quote from Xelaran:
If someone wants to know how I did something in a map, that person just has to ASK ME. Not crack open my map.
Pros of that apprach:
It's much easier for that other person since he/she desn't have to bother with unlocking
he/she can get an explaination how it works and even a variation that suits his/her purposes better
It gives me the confidence that my work is appriciated
It formed more than one friendship
...
Cons of that apprach:
... I suppose you have to communicate ... very difficult ...
That con is a really big con when you consider you can't be online 24/7. If you can provide me with an answer at any point in the day faster than I can look up how to unlock the map and look at how you did something, fine. But I don't know anybody that can do that.
Another con:
It's not guaranteed to work.
When you open a working map and look at the working code, you are able to see all the little steps that are necessary to make sure it works exactly right. You don't really get this by asking, "How do I do this?" Sure, you'll get help (when other people come online and decide to tell you), but there's not guarantee it'll work. And when it doesn't work, what will be asked of you? "Can you post your code so we can take a look at it?" How about that irony, eh?
What would you rather do? Would you rather open a map you know does what you need, and see how it's done, or go on a forum and ask people how to do it, and sit there for however long constantly refreshing the page until someone replies? You'd rather get it done and go on to the next thing, right?
Of course, you and I are alike in that we can figure it out on our own. We wouldn't bother with either of these approaches. But try to think back to the time when you were learning by example, and how much of a hassle it would have been to try to make it yourself with simple aide from others when you had next to no idea what you were doing. In a lot of programming languages, people can't even type a full Hello World program without resorting to seeing an example of a completed version.
Quote from Xelaran:
Instead we speed up the unlock developement process.
Think about it: Can you help hospitals develop a vaccine by spreading the virus?
The "virus" you speak of is a powerful tool for educating newbies. Seriously. Try to remember what it was like when you knew virtually nothing.
Quote from ChromiumBoy:
When I publish a map I'm presented with two options: to have it locked or have it unlocked. [...] If I want to have it locked, that means I've made the decision to not allow people to have open access to it's inner workings.
You really don't have that decision. Sure, it can be frustrating sometimes to not have that decision, but that is the cold, hard, truth.
Quote from SouLCarveRR:
I put more stock in Blizzard's EULA's then I do the bible though.... one holds up in a court of law.... the other doesnt.....
The Bible holds up in a court of law?
Quote from s3rius:
I say my coding is so precious that I don't want anyone else to open my map, put his name in instead of mine and republish it under a slightly different name.
Locking isn't the solution to that, though. The publishing system is the solution to that. Locking is entirely irrelevant to that.
Quote from s3rius:
I'd also say that it's so precious that I don't want people to be able to cheat my storage system to gain an unfair advantage over others (level hacking in rpgs and stuff).
Honestly, if someone wants to cheat in my map, who cares? The legitimate players can play legitimately and the cheaters can cheat. Everybody wins.
Quote from NewHydrolisk:
Open-sourcing your map means:
[...]
-knowledge that you've shared can come back to you in the form of better maps
You, sir, have just made my list...
...Of awesome people. If I can help and inspire just one person to make a fun map, I'd feel awesome. That's way more worthy in my view than making a good map.
did you steal a map and then post it publicly? delete this if so..
He had permission(kinda) and no we cant delete it(You should have bothered to read the contents of this thread). And dont necro threads on false pretense either.
/Facepalm
Import your script (e.g. the hacked Sotis galaxy script) as "importedScript.galaxy" in your map through the Import manager. The name doesn't really matter, I just used this so you can see what I do.
Now, open the target map where you want that script to be, create a Custom Script block. In this block, at the very bottom, type "customInit", and then create a function called customInit in your custom script block. This function should call all the initializers in the imported script. Finally, at the top of the Custom Script block (before the customInit function), place the line: include "importedScript"
Again, the names themselves don't matter, as long as you use the same at both places they're used. Note the lack of filetype suffix (".galaxy") in the include statement. This is normal and required - SC2 adds the .galaxy on its own, so if you put one it'll try to find importedScript.galaxy.galaxy and will obviously fail.
That's "include trickery". Best to go with other methods - or even better, not steal someone else's code - if the above is too complex for you (this is directed at anyone who will be concerned by this statement and no one in particular).
Technically everything made in the map editor legally belongs to Blizzard and not the individual, so it really doesn't matter if your map is stolen because it never belonged to you in the first place it belonged to Blizzard. That's why I don't know why Blizzard make you feel like you own your map by giving you the lock map option in the first place? They know that you don't own anything, so ownership doesn't really matter in the greater scheme of things. What matter is making better maps which sadly most the maps on the most popular list are really crappy. I wish no one could lock maps and Blizzard would make a duplicate rule instead the forbid a map being published that was too similar to another this would solve problems and promote creativity. :)
I downloaded SotIS and I must say the data sucks really really bad :(. There are seriously 70 of Rory's Concussive rebound move! I really don't recommend using the data as a reference to learn. Now the scripting is really good and you could learn from that but it's about 63,000 lines of code. It's sad but I think that SotIS is way more Brax (the scripter) than Ekco (the data specialist). That sad anyone that wants to learn heavy duty scripting should take a look at it :).
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@NewHydrolisk: Go
I take open source code all the time and remove all of the Liscense bs and change variables names, and rewrite 20% of it to meet my needs.
The whole open source thing is a funny thing to me but meh.
I dont see what your trying to argue here to be honest. .....you seem to be argueing that none of us should take pride in our work. And that we should all bow down and kiss the "open-source" god's gaping ass hole.
Meh, I release stuff i do on bnet as locked, because I want to. I share stuff on mapster because I want to.
If you wanna tell me, im wrong thats fine. If you yell it at me well.... Im pretty stubborn so why waste your breath?
Oh and in art school, did they not teach you how to summarize..... filthy libral art schools
You're getting it all wrong.
Here, how about this:
Open source is good for something as inconsequential as mapping/modding.
Open source != not taking pride in one's work.
Closing maps off only slows down how quickly maps can develop.
There are other ways to protect your credit besides protecting a map.
Thanks for insulting me, though. By the way, the previous statement was of a sarcastic nature.
Man this thread is still going? Anyway, whether or not locking works... the point about trying to protect your bank data is important. I want people to enjoy my RPG free of cheaters with level 99999 Hero who just looked at my bank trigger code and made their own hero. Well, we all know it happens eventually, but if locking can work well and banks could be stored on Bnet, then at least it would be delayed for a while.
Mapping may seem like small fries to a lot of people... but if you take your work seriously and have something good, it can spawn a multimillion dollar product. Look at all of the DOTA clones. Look at the dozens of tower defenses that cost money on the iphone store. Imagine if you branded something popular and could take it further outside of sc2...
Imagine if Pendragon and IceFrog did not know about Map locking back when the map first began? Someone could've stolen their map and developed it better. Zing. The pros of learning about map locking.
While that would've never happened, because as s3rius said, the people that steal maps are ones who have no idea what they are doing. With that in mind, there's not much to worry about.
This reminds me of mapster thread locking issue for some reasons. Oh wait ...
That would've been disastrous.
DotA has the best map protection I could think of - everyone downloads it from GetDotA, and no dota fan joins a game where he has to download the map first, because it's either an old version, a hacked version or a wrong name.
But if cheat packs and plagiates appeared long before DotA became what it is today, then this would have seriously undermined it's success - maybe it would still be a "small fry" like battleships.
I hardly think someone would actually have made something better out of it.
Do I think map unlocking should be promoted? No. But what I don't understand is why so many of you think that these unlocked maps would not be useful for people who want to learn. One of the best ways to learn is through example. Allowing others to see unlocked maps would prove extremely beneficial to people who already have a fairly good grasp of the map editor, but don't know how to do particular things. Now, that being said, I still disagree with the idea of unlocking maps against a mapmaker's will.
Here's an analogy. In the days before lightbulbs, an inventor decides, "It's annoying using candles all the time. I'm going to invent a source of light that can be switched on and off at a moment's notice." Every night the inventor locks his workshop when he goes home. Joe, who has heard of the inventor's work, says, "Hey! If I break into the workshop and utilize some of his ideas on the lightbulb, maybe I can invent another useful creation that will likewise benefit mankind!" A friend of Joe's, known as 'Mapster', specializes in breaking and entering and decides to help Joe.
Okay, so Joe may have a noble cause. He simply wants to create something free for others to benefit from (like creating a fun map for others to play). All that Joe needs is some help in the form of the inventor's ideas. Joe isn't planning on stealing the idea for the lightbulb. He isn't going to take away from the inventor's glory. He's going to make something of his own that merely uses some of the knowledge he gains from looking at the inventor's work. Nothing wrong there. All he needs to do is BREAK INTO THE INVENTOR'S WORKSHOP. Oh wait, maybe that is wrong?
I'm sorry, I recognize the benefit of learning from others, but the fact is that if map creators do not want others to see their work, it is their right to attempt (EVEN IF IT IS FUTILE) to lock their maps just as it is the right of a homeowner to lock his or her house AND you should respect that right. You could say that if a criminal really wants to, he or she could break into one's house so it is futile to lock one's doors... In that case we should write a guide on how to break into homes? This isn't as different as you might make it out to be. Now hear me out. Normally when we think of breaking into a house, we think of an intent to steal. Now, in both cases, maps and one's house, things can be stolen. But, at the same time, someone might merely want to use something and then move on. Let's just say that the person who breaks in simply wants to use the swimming pool to get a workout. Maybe he or she wants to use the microwave to warm up some frozen food because his or her microwave broke. Maybe he or she wants to watch the news so that he or she can be aware of current events. All of this is to gain some benefit without harming the owner just as learning from another user's map is for a benefit and doesn't necessarily hurt the owner. In this way, these two ideas are very similar. You say that there is nothing wrong with promoting how to unlock a map. Yet I doubt you would be okay with someone using your kitchen, pool, or entertainment center without your knowledge even if he or she didn't damage or steal anything.
This isn't about CS vs. OS. It's about respecting privacy.
If you have a question about a map, ask the author. Period.
@Yaos01: Go
The author is dead, what do?
@NewHydrolisk: Go
Wait 50 years.
or go figure it out yourself, just like the author did.
[quote=223237]
I really had a 3 page essay regarding why this post should be deleted but I didn't want to bother into another endless debate. All I'm going to say right now is this:
Even if you were in for making maps safer and better protected why do you specifically allow that second attachment. Sure it is an example of how to unprotect a map but that is a complete disrespect your site is showing towards the maker of that map, unless of course he is allowing it to be there.
You want to have your little discussion on open source that's fine. You want to have a specific protected map along with your open source discussion. That isn't right.**
- It's not guaranteed to work.
When you open a working map and look at the working code, you are able to see all the little steps that are necessary to make sure it works exactly right. You don't really get this by asking, "How do I do this?" Sure, you'll get help (when other people come online and decide to tell you), but there's not guarantee it'll work. And when it doesn't work, what will be asked of you? "Can you post your code so we can take a look at it?" How about that irony, eh? What would you rather do? Would you rather open a map you know does what you need, and see how it's done, or go on a forum and ask people how to do it, and sit there for however long constantly refreshing the page until someone replies? You'd rather get it done and go on to the next thing, right? Of course, you and I are alike in that we can figure it out on our own. We wouldn't bother with either of these approaches. But try to think back to the time when you were learning by example, and how much of a hassle it would have been to try to make it yourself with simple aide from others when you had next to no idea what you were doing. In a lot of programming languages, people can't even type a full Hello World program without resorting to seeing an example of a completed version. The "virus" you speak of is a powerful tool for educating newbies. Seriously. Try to remember what it was like when you knew virtually nothing. You really don't have that decision. Sure, it can be frustrating sometimes to not have that decision, but that is the cold, hard, truth. The Bible holds up in a court of law? Locking isn't the solution to that, though. The publishing system is the solution to that. Locking is entirely irrelevant to that. Honestly, if someone wants to cheat in my map, who cares? The legitimate players can play legitimately and the cheaters can cheat. Everybody wins. You, sir, have just made my list... ...Of awesome people. If I can help and inspire just one person to make a fun map, I'd feel awesome. That's way more worthy in my view than making a good map.did you steal a map and then post it publicly? delete this if so..
He had permission(kinda) and no we cant delete it(You should have bothered to read the contents of this thread). And dont necro threads on false pretense either.
/Facepalm
What is include trickery?
@Ezera: Go
Import your script (e.g. the hacked Sotis galaxy script) as "importedScript.galaxy" in your map through the Import manager. The name doesn't really matter, I just used this so you can see what I do.
Now, open the target map where you want that script to be, create a Custom Script block. In this block, at the very bottom, type "customInit", and then create a function called customInit in your custom script block. This function should call all the initializers in the imported script. Finally, at the top of the Custom Script block (before the customInit function), place the line: include "importedScript"
Again, the names themselves don't matter, as long as you use the same at both places they're used. Note the lack of filetype suffix (".galaxy") in the include statement. This is normal and required - SC2 adds the .galaxy on its own, so if you put one it'll try to find importedScript.galaxy.galaxy and will obviously fail.
That's "include trickery". Best to go with other methods - or even better, not steal someone else's code - if the above is too complex for you (this is directed at anyone who will be concerned by this statement and no one in particular).
Technically everything made in the map editor legally belongs to Blizzard and not the individual, so it really doesn't matter if your map is stolen because it never belonged to you in the first place it belonged to Blizzard. That's why I don't know why Blizzard make you feel like you own your map by giving you the lock map option in the first place? They know that you don't own anything, so ownership doesn't really matter in the greater scheme of things. What matter is making better maps which sadly most the maps on the most popular list are really crappy. I wish no one could lock maps and Blizzard would make a duplicate rule instead the forbid a map being published that was too similar to another this would solve problems and promote creativity. :)
Doesn't matter in sc2 anyway, blizz is gonna take it and claim it's theirs.
I downloaded SotIS and I must say the data sucks really really bad :(. There are seriously 70 of Rory's Concussive rebound move! I really don't recommend using the data as a reference to learn. Now the scripting is really good and you could learn from that but it's about 63,000 lines of code. It's sad but I think that SotIS is way more Brax (the scripter) than Ekco (the data specialist). That sad anyone that wants to learn heavy duty scripting should take a look at it :).