ok have a idea for a new zerg unit, not much about the looks though, aint worrying about that until i have help and want a positive response before even trying to make it.
i think the unit should be similar to the lurker in the fact that it can not attack above ground, and must burrow to attack, slow off creep, can not move while burrowed, and that its ability is to capture (immobilize the unit above somehow) and deal continuous damage until freed by a set amount of damage done to the zerg, and certain abilities would break its grip. would like the ability to make the terran above look like a ant lion pit.
ya that crossed my mind. Just thought it would be kind of cool, could use them to stop smaller units and then mass banelings to deal massive damage to those captured.
well honestly i going to college to learn how to design games, and honestly i dont want a over powered unit. i want one that is fair, and useful, without overlapping others and replacing their roles. If it is not that useful ill just srap it, it only a idea right now anyways
@karasux12: Go Though the idea by itself is good and plausible, Zerg already have Banelings to deal damage from underground as Shardfenix said and Fungal Growth from infestors to immobilize units, so roles would overlap. Why dont you try the other way: think of a role unfilled by Zerg units and then think of a unit and how it is going to fit that role.
actually i completely forgot about fungal growth. and when i came up with this idea i was think of the roach being its closest comparison, i had also forgot the baneling can explode from beneath.
It's an interesting idea. However, as stated, it overlaps with the baneling. It sounds to me like the primary use of the unit is utility. One thing that I miss from SC1 is the parasite that gave vision of a unit. What would be interesting, is if the unit could hide underground, and then silently infect anything that walks over it.
If this is for a custom melee game, this is my suggestion: Make the changling morphable into this unit. Early game, this unit would be somewhat overpowered. Reason being is that it would be able to latch onto scouts. Then the enemy could simply scout for you, which would be a huge advantage. Also, the unit obviously needs to be buried, and burrow isn't researchable until lair tech, which is available at earliest the end of early game.
The unit would also need to be somewhat hard to mass. I would also have them cost minerals as opposed to energy. Reason being is that this would discourage spamming of overseers, which seems ridiculous now, but would allow for a large advantage in map control if every overseer has this ability, and it only costs energy.
Also, another option for balance would be to have a cooldown on the unit. That way you couldn't just spam them around the map and get vision of everything. You would have to use them strategically, and with proper timing. Also, I would recommend having infected units be revealed by detectors.
Those are some of my ideas. One of the zerg's greatest weaknesses is the lack of map vision. And yes, I'm aware that burrow is the primary way to balance this, but remember that protoss his observers and DTs, not to mention the mothership. Terran has scanner sweep and ghosts, and sensor towers. Zerg has burrow, and changlings, which I am suggesting to be replaced anyways.
So these are my bits of ideas. It's not much, just what popped into my head.
ok you gave me two new ideas. what about a unit morphed from roach, retaining roachs abilities but gains the ant lion like trap ability, and a unit morphed from baneling that explodes like baneling doing less damage to units above, but each unit hit acts as a detector for you for a set amount of time.
I think you need to go through some steps of deciding the niche of the unit. My reasoning behind the unit is that zerg revolves around stealth. Of course the burrow aspect makes it stealthy, but there is already an ambush unit, and that is the baneling. The unit that I think you want to make is one of utility, as I said before, and although granting vision of units that are damaged would be utility, the usefulness would be very limited.
Next step is thinking about where the unit would fit into gameplay. The baneling can be used in variety of ways, but when being used as a land mine, it is typically placed outside bases (both enemy and allied) in an attempt to deal large burst damage to ground forces. The units that a baneling would most likely be ambushing would be units that chances are won't be returning to the enemy base, or doing any more scouting. Also, if the infection is this obvious, the enemy would most likely be losing units in the fight anyways, so they would simply sacrifice the unit.
Also, try and think of the unit as something that is difficult, or even detrimental, to mass. Having the unit deal damage would encourage players to mass it, because of it's excellent utility. In order to balance this, you would have to make the utility of the unit much less, essentially turning the unit into a baneling. Additionally, if the purpose of the unit is to give vision of the unit, doing damage would be a bad thing. A unit cannot walk around and give you vision if it is dead.
As for the roach idea, I would advise against messing with roaches. They already have 2 upgrades for them, and really should be kept the way they are. If they were given additional abilities, players would mass them and then morph them later on. Same with banelings. They already morph from a zergling, morphing them again would just be over the top.
Which is why I would recommend going with the changeling. The unit is practically never used, in low level and high level play. I would say at most once every 20 games I see one used effectively, and it is still far less effective than an observer or scanner sweep.
As for the trap idea, let it go. Fungal growth takes care of that already. With the changes to neural parasite (from a couple of months ago, where they can no longer target massive units or something like that, I can't even remember), having an additional unit that has a trap ability would make the infestor underpowered.
If you REALLY want a trap ability, make it more of a sap. Make the unit rather expensive (like the infestor, perhaps). When burrowed, the unit can lock onto an enemy unit, rendering it useless for 2 seconds, and sapping it's life in the process. After the 2 seconds is over, the unit will attach itself to it's host, and become untargetable. It will then cause the unit it has attached itself to to serve as a healing beacon for nearby allied units. After 30 seconds or a minute or so, the parasite would die. This would be useful for if the enemy rushes tech and all you have is zerglings (or any other melee units), for then they would be healed by the units that they are attacking.
Tacoman, long time no see! Hit me up on skype sometime.
Tacoman makes a good point: abilities have to serve a function. Going with your original post, you're unit seems like a type of "control" or immobilize unit. Basically a dude who initiates combat by singling out targets.
Now consider this:
This dude could make for a sweet hero. You can terraform in data such that the terrain above him forms a slight hill, and attach a flyswarm (I can't remember the actor name) on the unit, setting the swarm height enough so it appears above the hill. Then, maybe a tinted crack goes right on top of the hill for the hole.
If it does deal damage, it should not be much. It's purpose is to start a fight, and to seperate some units from other units.
ok good points. The roach is one of my favorite units actually that why i picked it for a morph, but massing would be a issue. also i honestly think the infestor is under powered anyways, i rarely lose games and never use them. I wouldnt want to make it useless. the corrupter is the same to me, i dont use them. So what about a unit, that can burrow, and when a unit steps on it, it attachs to it, and becomes a healing beacon, but can be killed if attacked while on unit (if that possible), and saps health from the unit it is attached to, of course they would need a low health to make them not over powered, does not mess with the corruptor, or infestor, and leaves the baneling alone. Also when heart of the swarm comes out, i plan on adding those evolutions to the map, so the roach baneling and zergling will have more morphs already, so a third tier morph is not a problem i would think.
the solution would be a completly new unit with these abilities, with low health. i play as zerg mostly so think it would be helpful, and have a few ideas to balance it with other races. i plan on giving some protoss a purge ability (if i can figure it out) to remove these kinds of effects but takes a decent amount of energy.
The only issue with that is the unit would die very quickly. The reason why a timer would be better, is because then the units would be viable in a large scale fight, not only against scouts.
Also, making them undetectable (unless there is a detector of course) would be a good idea, so enemy scouts (or just regular units) could be infected without then knowing.
As for the sap, the reason why I would have it be a 2 second long damage and root is because otherwise the unit would be too hard to balance. Like you stated, having a unit that latches onto another unit and does continuous damage would be OP if it could not be killed with relative ease. However, if the unit did nothing to harm the enemy (after the root and small sap damage), but provided a small amount of aid the owner, it would be balanced.
Also, think of the lore/logic behind it. The unit attaches itself to a unit, rooting it and stealing some of it's health. Then over time, it distributes this health to nearby friendly units. Perhaps allow the unit to stay alive until it's host dies, or until it heals allied units for the same health it stole from the enemy? That would be an interesting concept.
Try and imagine what you are suggesting, however. These units are made so that they cannot be (or are very difficult) to mass. If you attempt to latch onto an enemy, and that enemy can attack you, especially if that unit is in the middle of an entire army, the small health damage over time unit which you are suggesting would die before it could even do one tick of damage, much less be useful as a healing beacon.
Also, it could give vision of the unit it attaches itself to. Not the unit's surroundings, just the unit. That way some strategies could be added into the game. The zerg player could assume that the enemy does not know the unit has been infected, and that the unit has returned to its base, or is still with the army. However, the enemy could also use this to their advantage, for if they did notice the infection, they could send the unit to an empty base and pretend like that is their own base. Or, if the unit was part of an army, they could send that unit off by itself and then send in the rest of the army from the other direction for a surprise attack. That feature could open up a large variety of strategies.
Also, another thing you might want to look into, is adding units to protoss and terran that could counter this unit. This might not be necessary because of observers and scanner sweeps, or just because the unit isn't significant enough to need a counter, but it's just a thought.
i like your suggestions. think i will give it health not a timer (maybe see if i can do both, so if it takes this much damage it is dead, and after this amount of time it is dead), and have a short sap damage, and make it reveal the unit when attached. Also agree to making it undetectable without a detector. And the protoss will have the purge ability to counter it. I also do not want them to be massed or i can see a major unbalancing problem. Also think i will change the sap to 2 seconds like you suggested, but only heal units within a certain radius, and give it the ability to sap damage again after a cool down on its ability, but this will not heal units unless they within the radius again.
I get where you are coming from, but realize that once the enemy gets a detector, the unit will become useless. More so even than DTs. They would be ONLY useful early game, which would mean that they would not cost vespene, which I think is a bad idea. But you will figure out a way to make it work I'm sure.
maybe also give them the ability to attach to your own units, to accelerate energy regeneration and health regeneration for their timed life? gives them a better use late game, but i dont think will make the zerg to hard to defeat.
You might be onto something, but energy regeneration is way too specific. The infestor is the only one who would benefit from that, and that would make them OP. Overseers use energy too, but they don't really do anything. Spam changelings? Lol
I like the health regen idea. This might get OP, and you would have to be VERY careful with the numbers you use with this, but you could have them apply a lifesteal effect to the friendly host, but for melee attacks only. Think about it, even ranged zerg units have a melee attack. (roaches/hydras) The animation could be something like blood being sucked from the attacks into the unit, and then being fed into the host. That would be cool. Also, they could be set up to provide a lifeline. If the unit drops below a certain percent, the unit will be killed instead of the host. Would make using the ability on something like a zergling or roach viable.
This would be VERY difficult to balance. A lot of percentages would need to be used, based on the health of the host, damage of the host, etc. But if done correctly, it could be a very cool addition to the zerg.
Also, as SoulFilcher said, and as I did earlier, be VERY careful messing with roaches. There is a reason that they do not morph into anything. They do what they are meant to do, which is to be an early to mid game fighter, and a late game tank/ambusher. Make them anything more, and they will become imbalanced very quickly. I'm not saying it is impossible, just very difficult.
Also, just an FYI, I am actually studying RTS AI and balancing. (Mainly AI, but AI depends a lot on balancing, so as to know what units should be sent where to make the best attack, etc)
soul i know you did, kinda were i got the idea. actually thought of it then thought of your map lol and the roach morph will only be into the two it will be able to in the campaign for HoTS so it shouldnt be to bad, or the story would be imbalanced. all it is is a roach with specific upgrade, the prowler or leech. leech steals health and prowler does something else. not sure.
and i like the idea for the unit now. think i will make it see how it works and tell you how it plays out. prob be awhile, still new to making units. hopefully i make a unit that is viable as and useful without unbalancing the races.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
ok have a idea for a new zerg unit, not much about the looks though, aint worrying about that until i have help and want a positive response before even trying to make it. i think the unit should be similar to the lurker in the fact that it can not attack above ground, and must burrow to attack, slow off creep, can not move while burrowed, and that its ability is to capture (immobilize the unit above somehow) and deal continuous damage until freed by a set amount of damage done to the zerg, and certain abilities would break its grip. would like the ability to make the terran above look like a ant lion pit.
The only problem with your unit is that banelings would be strictly better.
@shardfenix: Go
ya that crossed my mind. Just thought it would be kind of cool, could use them to stop smaller units and then mass banelings to deal massive damage to those captured.
no offense, but if you're gonna make a new units, go insane with it.
i think a new "effective and fair unit" won't grab enough attention to whatever you're using it in.
nevertheless, this unit idea of yours is fine.
@thepumaman1: Go
well honestly i going to college to learn how to design games, and honestly i dont want a over powered unit. i want one that is fair, and useful, without overlapping others and replacing their roles. If it is not that useful ill just srap it, it only a idea right now anyways
@karasux12: Go Though the idea by itself is good and plausible, Zerg already have Banelings to deal damage from underground as Shardfenix said and Fungal Growth from infestors to immobilize units, so roles would overlap. Why dont you try the other way: think of a role unfilled by Zerg units and then think of a unit and how it is going to fit that role.
@SoulFilcher: Go
actually i completely forgot about fungal growth. and when i came up with this idea i was think of the roach being its closest comparison, i had also forgot the baneling can explode from beneath.
It's an interesting idea. However, as stated, it overlaps with the baneling. It sounds to me like the primary use of the unit is utility. One thing that I miss from SC1 is the parasite that gave vision of a unit. What would be interesting, is if the unit could hide underground, and then silently infect anything that walks over it.
If this is for a custom melee game, this is my suggestion: Make the changling morphable into this unit. Early game, this unit would be somewhat overpowered. Reason being is that it would be able to latch onto scouts. Then the enemy could simply scout for you, which would be a huge advantage. Also, the unit obviously needs to be buried, and burrow isn't researchable until lair tech, which is available at earliest the end of early game.
The unit would also need to be somewhat hard to mass. I would also have them cost minerals as opposed to energy. Reason being is that this would discourage spamming of overseers, which seems ridiculous now, but would allow for a large advantage in map control if every overseer has this ability, and it only costs energy.
Also, another option for balance would be to have a cooldown on the unit. That way you couldn't just spam them around the map and get vision of everything. You would have to use them strategically, and with proper timing. Also, I would recommend having infected units be revealed by detectors.
Those are some of my ideas. One of the zerg's greatest weaknesses is the lack of map vision. And yes, I'm aware that burrow is the primary way to balance this, but remember that protoss his observers and DTs, not to mention the mothership. Terran has scanner sweep and ghosts, and sensor towers. Zerg has burrow, and changlings, which I am suggesting to be replaced anyways.
So these are my bits of ideas. It's not much, just what popped into my head.
Great to be back and part of the community again!
@TacoManStan: Go
ok you gave me two new ideas. what about a unit morphed from roach, retaining roachs abilities but gains the ant lion like trap ability, and a unit morphed from baneling that explodes like baneling doing less damage to units above, but each unit hit acts as a detector for you for a set amount of time.
I think you need to go through some steps of deciding the niche of the unit. My reasoning behind the unit is that zerg revolves around stealth. Of course the burrow aspect makes it stealthy, but there is already an ambush unit, and that is the baneling. The unit that I think you want to make is one of utility, as I said before, and although granting vision of units that are damaged would be utility, the usefulness would be very limited.
Next step is thinking about where the unit would fit into gameplay. The baneling can be used in variety of ways, but when being used as a land mine, it is typically placed outside bases (both enemy and allied) in an attempt to deal large burst damage to ground forces. The units that a baneling would most likely be ambushing would be units that chances are won't be returning to the enemy base, or doing any more scouting. Also, if the infection is this obvious, the enemy would most likely be losing units in the fight anyways, so they would simply sacrifice the unit.
Also, try and think of the unit as something that is difficult, or even detrimental, to mass. Having the unit deal damage would encourage players to mass it, because of it's excellent utility. In order to balance this, you would have to make the utility of the unit much less, essentially turning the unit into a baneling. Additionally, if the purpose of the unit is to give vision of the unit, doing damage would be a bad thing. A unit cannot walk around and give you vision if it is dead.
As for the roach idea, I would advise against messing with roaches. They already have 2 upgrades for them, and really should be kept the way they are. If they were given additional abilities, players would mass them and then morph them later on. Same with banelings. They already morph from a zergling, morphing them again would just be over the top.
Which is why I would recommend going with the changeling. The unit is practically never used, in low level and high level play. I would say at most once every 20 games I see one used effectively, and it is still far less effective than an observer or scanner sweep.
As for the trap idea, let it go. Fungal growth takes care of that already. With the changes to neural parasite (from a couple of months ago, where they can no longer target massive units or something like that, I can't even remember), having an additional unit that has a trap ability would make the infestor underpowered.
If you REALLY want a trap ability, make it more of a sap. Make the unit rather expensive (like the infestor, perhaps). When burrowed, the unit can lock onto an enemy unit, rendering it useless for 2 seconds, and sapping it's life in the process. After the 2 seconds is over, the unit will attach itself to it's host, and become untargetable. It will then cause the unit it has attached itself to to serve as a healing beacon for nearby allied units. After 30 seconds or a minute or so, the parasite would die. This would be useful for if the enemy rushes tech and all you have is zerglings (or any other melee units), for then they would be healed by the units that they are attacking.
Up to you where you go with these ideas.
Great to be back and part of the community again!
Tacoman, long time no see! Hit me up on skype sometime.
Tacoman makes a good point: abilities have to serve a function. Going with your original post, you're unit seems like a type of "control" or immobilize unit. Basically a dude who initiates combat by singling out targets.
Now consider this:
This dude could make for a sweet hero. You can terraform in data such that the terrain above him forms a slight hill, and attach a flyswarm (I can't remember the actor name) on the unit, setting the swarm height enough so it appears above the hill. Then, maybe a tinted crack goes right on top of the hill for the hole.
If it does deal damage, it should not be much. It's purpose is to start a fight, and to seperate some units from other units.
@Yeti434: Go
ok good points. The roach is one of my favorite units actually that why i picked it for a morph, but massing would be a issue. also i honestly think the infestor is under powered anyways, i rarely lose games and never use them. I wouldnt want to make it useless. the corrupter is the same to me, i dont use them. So what about a unit, that can burrow, and when a unit steps on it, it attachs to it, and becomes a healing beacon, but can be killed if attacked while on unit (if that possible), and saps health from the unit it is attached to, of course they would need a low health to make them not over powered, does not mess with the corruptor, or infestor, and leaves the baneling alone. Also when heart of the swarm comes out, i plan on adding those evolutions to the map, so the roach baneling and zergling will have more morphs already, so a third tier morph is not a problem i would think. the solution would be a completly new unit with these abilities, with low health. i play as zerg mostly so think it would be helpful, and have a few ideas to balance it with other races. i plan on giving some protoss a purge ability (if i can figure it out) to remove these kinds of effects but takes a decent amount of energy.
@karasux12: Go
The only issue with that is the unit would die very quickly. The reason why a timer would be better, is because then the units would be viable in a large scale fight, not only against scouts.
Also, making them undetectable (unless there is a detector of course) would be a good idea, so enemy scouts (or just regular units) could be infected without then knowing.
As for the sap, the reason why I would have it be a 2 second long damage and root is because otherwise the unit would be too hard to balance. Like you stated, having a unit that latches onto another unit and does continuous damage would be OP if it could not be killed with relative ease. However, if the unit did nothing to harm the enemy (after the root and small sap damage), but provided a small amount of aid the owner, it would be balanced.
Also, think of the lore/logic behind it. The unit attaches itself to a unit, rooting it and stealing some of it's health. Then over time, it distributes this health to nearby friendly units. Perhaps allow the unit to stay alive until it's host dies, or until it heals allied units for the same health it stole from the enemy? That would be an interesting concept.
Try and imagine what you are suggesting, however. These units are made so that they cannot be (or are very difficult) to mass. If you attempt to latch onto an enemy, and that enemy can attack you, especially if that unit is in the middle of an entire army, the small health damage over time unit which you are suggesting would die before it could even do one tick of damage, much less be useful as a healing beacon.
Also, it could give vision of the unit it attaches itself to. Not the unit's surroundings, just the unit. That way some strategies could be added into the game. The zerg player could assume that the enemy does not know the unit has been infected, and that the unit has returned to its base, or is still with the army. However, the enemy could also use this to their advantage, for if they did notice the infection, they could send the unit to an empty base and pretend like that is their own base. Or, if the unit was part of an army, they could send that unit off by itself and then send in the rest of the army from the other direction for a surprise attack. That feature could open up a large variety of strategies.
Also, another thing you might want to look into, is adding units to protoss and terran that could counter this unit. This might not be necessary because of observers and scanner sweeps, or just because the unit isn't significant enough to need a counter, but it's just a thought.
Great to be back and part of the community again!
@TacoManStan: Go
i like your suggestions. think i will give it health not a timer (maybe see if i can do both, so if it takes this much damage it is dead, and after this amount of time it is dead), and have a short sap damage, and make it reveal the unit when attached. Also agree to making it undetectable without a detector. And the protoss will have the purge ability to counter it. I also do not want them to be massed or i can see a major unbalancing problem. Also think i will change the sap to 2 seconds like you suggested, but only heal units within a certain radius, and give it the ability to sap damage again after a cool down on its ability, but this will not heal units unless they within the radius again.
@karasux12: Go
I get where you are coming from, but realize that once the enemy gets a detector, the unit will become useless. More so even than DTs. They would be ONLY useful early game, which would mean that they would not cost vespene, which I think is a bad idea. But you will figure out a way to make it work I'm sure.
Great to be back and part of the community again!
@TacoManStan: Go
hmm. you are right, with a detector they would be useless.
@karasux12: Go
maybe also give them the ability to attach to your own units, to accelerate energy regeneration and health regeneration for their timed life? gives them a better use late game, but i dont think will make the zerg to hard to defeat.
@karasux12: Go I used that idea for Feederlings, but I didn't give them a timed life. Just take care because Roaches may get OP with that.
@karasux12: Go
You might be onto something, but energy regeneration is way too specific. The infestor is the only one who would benefit from that, and that would make them OP. Overseers use energy too, but they don't really do anything. Spam changelings? Lol
I like the health regen idea. This might get OP, and you would have to be VERY careful with the numbers you use with this, but you could have them apply a lifesteal effect to the friendly host, but for melee attacks only. Think about it, even ranged zerg units have a melee attack. (roaches/hydras) The animation could be something like blood being sucked from the attacks into the unit, and then being fed into the host. That would be cool. Also, they could be set up to provide a lifeline. If the unit drops below a certain percent, the unit will be killed instead of the host. Would make using the ability on something like a zergling or roach viable.
This would be VERY difficult to balance. A lot of percentages would need to be used, based on the health of the host, damage of the host, etc. But if done correctly, it could be a very cool addition to the zerg.
Also, as SoulFilcher said, and as I did earlier, be VERY careful messing with roaches. There is a reason that they do not morph into anything. They do what they are meant to do, which is to be an early to mid game fighter, and a late game tank/ambusher. Make them anything more, and they will become imbalanced very quickly. I'm not saying it is impossible, just very difficult.
Also, just an FYI, I am actually studying RTS AI and balancing. (Mainly AI, but AI depends a lot on balancing, so as to know what units should be sent where to make the best attack, etc)
Great to be back and part of the community again!
@SoulFilcher: Go
soul i know you did, kinda were i got the idea. actually thought of it then thought of your map lol and the roach morph will only be into the two it will be able to in the campaign for HoTS so it shouldnt be to bad, or the story would be imbalanced. all it is is a roach with specific upgrade, the prowler or leech. leech steals health and prowler does something else. not sure. and i like the idea for the unit now. think i will make it see how it works and tell you how it plays out. prob be awhile, still new to making units. hopefully i make a unit that is viable as and useful without unbalancing the races.