So I've been learning how to create mobile and browser games lately, and it's much more easier than I expected: some years ago, it was awful, and you had 0 help and 0 support. Nowadays, though, there's a lot of stuff around the "genre". So I'm seriously thinking on quitting SC2Editor completely and focusing on mobile/browser games.
My first serious "I'm going to think about it" came this weekend. I attended to a nice 15 hour videogame course, where 3 young guys from a small studio on my city taught us the basics, and helped us create our own game. We didn't manage to create a "great" game, but I got a bit shocked at how "relatively" easy it was. Of course, working with SC2 gives, to start with, better visual results, and you focus your time on making a better gameplay, forgetting about basic controls and mechanics, which need to be written from scratch, and graphics, who need to be created or taken from open sources.
If you're like me and don't even think about trying, because you suspect it's too hard, don't. If you are good enough to get decent results with SC2, you will get decent ones starting from scratch. Yes, as I said, the visual result will be completely different (and let's be sincere, "worse"). In my particular case, I'm outright lazy with SC2, and have only done dozens and dozens of small mechanics, boss fights and whatever, just for fun, but no map so far. Also, I still need to learn the data editor properly, and I never feel like doing so.
So I'm making a list while I get decided, containing reasons for leaving SC2 and getting into simpler games: (I may be wrong on most of it, but that's why I'm posting it)
Freedom: the product will be yours, and you will be able to put advertisements or sell it, getting real profit (no matter it won't be too much). In SC2, you can control your product in any way. If the marketplace is as restrictive as they said, the work needed to make your map decent enough may not be worth the effort.
Portfolio: in the videogame industry, portfolios are the curriculum vitae. Showing something small made from scratch gives a better impression than showing something big made using an engine, and everyone understands pure code, while engine codes are much more complex, and people may get lost between what you have done and what you haven't; and it's usually towards the negative side. Also, effort is underestimated, mostly out of pure ignorance.
Accessibility: making a game from scratch lets everyone play it (usually). You don't need to buy a game to play the mod. With the current custom games system, this gets worse with SC2. Outside Battle.net, you can always try advertising it by yourself, while SC2 is much more restrictive regarding access by potential players.
I tried learning Java again like 6months before...I just cant keep myself looking youtube videos and trying to learn the stuff...so that stuff aint for me.
If you have patience to learn that stuff, its time more wisely spent than using the sc2 editor.
I see it boiling down to 'how satisfied am I with my game?' I've coded a lot of things, C+ +, mugen, and SC2 to name 3 going from "start with nothing" to "full engine+editor." My C+ + work, while fun figuring out mechanics, etc. becomes cumbersome if you havn't played with the language long enough to invent your own mechanics to help you code sections easier (similar to creating functions in SC2). Also, when I see things I want them to be pretty, I'm a perfectionist. My coding work could constantly be improved, so I kept going back leaving the visuals to rot while still spending immense amounts of time creating this program. I passed along my stuff to friends to spread it around, but it wasn't great... usually it was forgotten after a week. Needless to say after I stopped coding, I wasn't very happy with the end result.
MUGEN was a step in between. I could code an entire 2-D fighter from scratch, but using MUGEN language. So I had the freedom of freelance coding, with the structure and mechanics of a language built for games. Within a month or so of even hearing about the language I created the #1 most popular MUGEN character available. I really liked how this character turned out, but still... the visuals were lacking because I had to create a good chunk of the 2-D sprites on my own. MUGEN is free and (mostly) opensource so it was easy to spread around so others could play. I could reach a nice crowd of people with my MUGEN stuff, but not a huge audience.
The Starcraft II Engine as my last example is probably what I like creating in the most. The game comes with an instant audience of 1.25 mil (if you talk all of BNET or something under 1/3 of that if you're just talking SC II), a full scripting language with many mechanics built in, and limitations of how impressive one can make a game is based on their knowledge of the language (but what isn't?). There isn't as much freedom as coding from scratch of course, but with the ease of making great visuals along with being able to focus on the mechanics of my game rather than of the language I'm coding it in, SC II definitely picks up the freedom chains' slack. For almost everything I've wanted to create so far, I've found a way. If this
can be created in an editor made for creeps and Templar, I doubt a videogame company would look down upon you for submitting a map as a part of your portfolio.
But just to sum it up, don't quit either one. Scripting from scratch is fun and so is SC II ;D
Galaxy is just another language you can put down come that space on your resume that reads
"Fluent Languages."
If you have worked with a huge editor like sc2's one, you show that you are able to use complex systems that you didn't know before and which other people created.
I think that should be the case, if you create game content for a company. You won't create the engine, you most likely use what people give you. You can only ask nicely, if they could look into adding this or that mechanic to the engine to allow new or simplify existing aspects.
As an example most people from Starcraft 1 mapping were scared away from the data editor. They hadn't the pattience to learn a new system. You could transfer pretty much no knowledge because the whole trigger system works differently [if-then-checks every x game frames <-/-> event based system]).
And after the custom game lists hopefully will be changed that non-popular maps with existing lobby can be found, you can actually get an audience for testing your map.
If you created tools/engine yourself, it might be better for you, if you want to create tools/engines. But you can see positive aspects in pretty much everything you do as long as you do something.
Thats the exact reason you dont see me doing many maps at all, and only a tech demo here and there.
I spend my time doing web/standalone games that any user, anywhere can enjoy while I have no limitations working on it.
Problem with sc2 it takes more work to make something that first only people with sc2 will see, and even then its limited again.
The truth of the mater is I program for myself, and not others, but it sure is a billion times better when others get to enjoy you what you made out of your own enjoyment.
But Im not given up sc2 dev like you tho =P Theres room in my heart for all forms of programming.
You can define the length of an array with a variable. Apparently you can't do that in Galaxy.
You can make objects. Isn't too much to describe there.
You can advertise your game to more people than to just people who must have already had another game advertised to them in the first place. (For someone to play a custom game, they must have Starcraft. Duh.)
Random stuff that you don't realize that you are missing in the SC2Editor. For example, bank files. You don't have a limit to EVERYTHING YOU DO lol.
Netbeans is awesome.
If Blizzard screws up, it doesn't f* you over.
So yeah, there are obviously a TON more in there, but that is just the beginning, and why I am probably going to be taking a rather long break from serious mapping. Besides, my high school offers AP comp programming, which is awesome :)
I recently started on BA.Computer Science in the University of Copenhagen, and there is a guy from there who did his Bachelor Project as a SC2 map, and it was all done with triggers and data editor, and he got some good grades, and that is helping him to get into the Game Designer business. And that is because it is very important too be able too adapt and learn how new systems and languages works, and all your considerations and thoughts creating a game, the hole process is just as important as the final product.
But isn't it all about the fun :), I would just do what is the most fun.
I've often thought about getting into mobile game development as a hobby. I have an IPhone Game Development book on my shelf that has gone untouched.
There are two very significant features with SC2 editing that make me continue to use it instead of working on a mobile game.
Available visual and sound assets
A distribution system
If I make my own mobile game, I'm starting with no art and no sound to use. I have no skills for creating art and sound, I'm only good at making games. SC2 allows me to work on my own wondrous creations without having to track down a team of unreliable nerds to help me. I certainly can't guarantee any profits, either.
The availability of a distribution system is the biggest draw for me. Sure, there are tons of problems with b.net, but the idea is that it's possible for me to instantly distribute my work to thousands of people.
I love to program, but I am here to make incredible games. I.e., I want to make a complete product. Anyone can noodle around and create tech demos with any type of technology, but they will never reach a broad audience and they are absolutely forgettable. If you want your work to be enjoyed by tens of thousands of people, you need to make an complete game. If you want to make a game by yourself, then SC2 editor is the tool for you.
If you want your work to be enjoyed by tens of thousands of people, you need to make an complete game. If you want to make a game by yourself, then SC2 editor is the tool for you.
see thats where I disagree...as of right now, its NOT sc2 editor.
flash on newgrounds
Unity/unreal/hammer on steam
..ect thats where its at if you want people to see it as well.
Even then if you are only using the assests in sc2.. even with new gameplay, your game is still going to be like all the others, theres only so much you can do to make it unique. if your going to spend them time to make it unqiue, with our own UI, and graphics..ect.. then moving out of it is a grand idea, and as the OP said, its very very easy, a lot easier than people think.
Once the Pop system is changed around, I think sc2 mapping will be a grand place to be, just not right now.
No official exporter/importer for models. So all you can do is make MAPS. And modding the game is hard since you dont have exporter/importer for models.
No official exporter/importer for models. So all you can do is make MAPS. And modding the game is hard since you dont have exporter/importer for models.
wait what... I dont know if serious. (about the importing)
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Tutorials - Map Development - Galaxy wiki
|Issues? PM me|
There might not be an "official" model handler, but there are tools that work... near perfectly if I may add... Did you not see Helicopters in SC 2? Hah.
While the unofficial tools don't support everything under the sun for modding, what it CAN do is already very comprehensive. You can export Models, control shaders with specularity, glows, team color and decal support, animations, attachments, particle effects and more. We're mostly limited to being unable to export certain particle effects, .m3a animations and portraits, all of which are superficial when considering you don't need these to get a unit working in game.
Tools for SC2 may come in the future as well, so citing this as a reason to leave SC2 mapping/modding is more of an excuse than anything.
This sounds interesting... how would I go about learning how to make games for mobile phones or browsers with no programming experience? Basically learn java?
I am a self learned programmer, and i am a web developer now. Sometimes i fiddle with some new technologies (you can see small part of my work here), but this is still good to stay with sc2. You can do fast prototyping without worrying about graphic or networking bugs. It is simple, it is fast, and it is fun. What you need more? If you can create good game here, you may port it to standalone application or web app. You should take a look on lower level too. Creating game binaries is little harder, but you twice the fun, and it has a lot more possibilities (you can do a LOT more thing, actually anything that your hardware can do). Imagine file-system based game :D you don't even need any graphical engine :P For more serious games try Ogre3D and similar libraries.
So, for sum it up, you shouldn't just quit modding community because of more "serious" work than editor, as long as it is fun for you. Do both, double your profit :P
your story seems like as Bob666. He made the original Btanks for W3, he also made Supreme Commander map for W3 which was as good as the original Supreme Commander and he also made 3D battlefields (fps) like map for w3 ().
Now he is making Java flight simulator as I know:
Sadly as I think, until you are indie in this fucking video game market, you will never make anything popular (expect some lucky one). With sc2/w3 you can say atleast that you used a multi corp's polished engine.
I hope with HOTS and with market place, they will make the custom map "search" atleast as good as in W3.
Also you guys forget to mention how hard to make lobby and multi player systems from scratch...
Most people give up mapping because it is a painful amount of hard work before you get anything playable and there is always that nagging feeling called real life. Still the SC2 editor is a good artistic outlet as a hobby.
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Contribute to the wiki (Wiki button at top of page) Considered easy altering of the unit textures?
\. Still the SC2 editor is a good artistic outlet as a hobby.
I think you said it beautifully there. Its a fantastic tool for people who love just to sit down and makes things, when they dont care if others see it or not, and just want to make something for fun.
Its the sc1 editor that I played around with for years so so so many years ago that got me into programming in the very first place. I think thats why I feel so strongly about the sc2 editor (due to what the sc1 editor meant to me)
But if you really want to make games for people to really play, and make a good money off of... yeah you shouldnt be scared to take the jump. Triggers are simple, but if you got them down, you understand the basics of programing already.
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Random Information
Tutorials - Map Development - Galaxy wiki
|Issues? PM me|
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So I've been learning how to create mobile and browser games lately, and it's much more easier than I expected: some years ago, it was awful, and you had 0 help and 0 support. Nowadays, though, there's a lot of stuff around the "genre". So I'm seriously thinking on quitting SC2Editor completely and focusing on mobile/browser games.
My first serious "I'm going to think about it" came this weekend. I attended to a nice 15 hour videogame course, where 3 young guys from a small studio on my city taught us the basics, and helped us create our own game. We didn't manage to create a "great" game, but I got a bit shocked at how "relatively" easy it was. Of course, working with SC2 gives, to start with, better visual results, and you focus your time on making a better gameplay, forgetting about basic controls and mechanics, which need to be written from scratch, and graphics, who need to be created or taken from open sources.
If you're like me and don't even think about trying, because you suspect it's too hard, don't. If you are good enough to get decent results with SC2, you will get decent ones starting from scratch. Yes, as I said, the visual result will be completely different (and let's be sincere, "worse"). In my particular case, I'm outright lazy with SC2, and have only done dozens and dozens of small mechanics, boss fights and whatever, just for fun, but no map so far. Also, I still need to learn the data editor properly, and I never feel like doing so.
So I'm making a list while I get decided, containing reasons for leaving SC2 and getting into simpler games: (I may be wrong on most of it, but that's why I'm posting it)
And I can't think of more right now.
Well, discussion?
I tried learning Java again like 6months before...I just cant keep myself looking youtube videos and trying to learn the stuff...so that stuff aint for me.
If you have patience to learn that stuff, its time more wisely spent than using the sc2 editor.
What language/ platform did you develop on?
Also, you don't have to exclusively work on one or the other.
Pros for Starcraft 2 Editor:
I see it boiling down to 'how satisfied am I with my game?' I've coded a lot of things, C+ +, mugen, and SC2 to name 3 going from "start with nothing" to "full engine+editor." My C+ + work, while fun figuring out mechanics, etc. becomes cumbersome if you havn't played with the language long enough to invent your own mechanics to help you code sections easier (similar to creating functions in SC2). Also, when I see things I want them to be pretty, I'm a perfectionist. My coding work could constantly be improved, so I kept going back leaving the visuals to rot while still spending immense amounts of time creating this program. I passed along my stuff to friends to spread it around, but it wasn't great... usually it was forgotten after a week. Needless to say after I stopped coding, I wasn't very happy with the end result.
MUGEN was a step in between. I could code an entire 2-D fighter from scratch, but using MUGEN language. So I had the freedom of freelance coding, with the structure and mechanics of a language built for games. Within a month or so of even hearing about the language I created the #1 most popular MUGEN character available. I really liked how this character turned out, but still... the visuals were lacking because I had to create a good chunk of the 2-D sprites on my own. MUGEN is free and (mostly) opensource so it was easy to spread around so others could play. I could reach a nice crowd of people with my MUGEN stuff, but not a huge audience.
The Starcraft II Engine as my last example is probably what I like creating in the most. The game comes with an instant audience of 1.25 mil (if you talk all of BNET or something under 1/3 of that if you're just talking SC II), a full scripting language with many mechanics built in, and limitations of how impressive one can make a game is based on their knowledge of the language (but what isn't?). There isn't as much freedom as coding from scratch of course, but with the ease of making great visuals along with being able to focus on the mechanics of my game rather than of the language I'm coding it in, SC II definitely picks up the freedom chains' slack. For almost everything I've wanted to create so far, I've found a way. If this
can be created in an editor made for creeps and Templar, I doubt a videogame company would look down upon you for submitting a map as a part of your portfolio.
But just to sum it up, don't quit either one. Scripting from scratch is fun and so is SC II ;D
Galaxy is just another language you can put down come that space on your resume that reads
"Fluent Languages."
If you have worked with a huge editor like sc2's one, you show that you are able to use complex systems that you didn't know before and which other people created.
I think that should be the case, if you create game content for a company. You won't create the engine, you most likely use what people give you. You can only ask nicely, if they could look into adding this or that mechanic to the engine to allow new or simplify existing aspects.
As an example most people from Starcraft 1 mapping were scared away from the data editor. They hadn't the pattience to learn a new system. You could transfer pretty much no knowledge because the whole trigger system works differently [if-then-checks every x game frames <-/-> event based system]).
And after the custom game lists hopefully will be changed that non-popular maps with existing lobby can be found, you can actually get an audience for testing your map.
If you created tools/engine yourself, it might be better for you, if you want to create tools/engines. But you can see positive aspects in pretty much everything you do as long as you do something.
Thats the exact reason you dont see me doing many maps at all, and only a tech demo here and there.
I spend my time doing web/standalone games that any user, anywhere can enjoy while I have no limitations working on it.
Problem with sc2 it takes more work to make something that first only people with sc2 will see, and even then its limited again.
The truth of the mater is I program for myself, and not others, but it sure is a billion times better when others get to enjoy you what you made out of your own enjoyment.
But Im not given up sc2 dev like you tho =P Theres room in my heart for all forms of programming.
Why do I like Java?
So yeah, there are obviously a TON more in there, but that is just the beginning, and why I am probably going to be taking a rather long break from serious mapping. Besides, my high school offers AP comp programming, which is awesome :)
Great to be back and part of the community again!
I recently started on BA.Computer Science in the University of Copenhagen, and there is a guy from there who did his Bachelor Project as a SC2 map, and it was all done with triggers and data editor, and he got some good grades, and that is helping him to get into the Game Designer business. And that is because it is very important too be able too adapt and learn how new systems and languages works, and all your considerations and thoughts creating a game, the hole process is just as important as the final product.
But isn't it all about the fun :), I would just do what is the most fun.
I've often thought about getting into mobile game development as a hobby. I have an IPhone Game Development book on my shelf that has gone untouched.
There are two very significant features with SC2 editing that make me continue to use it instead of working on a mobile game.
If I make my own mobile game, I'm starting with no art and no sound to use. I have no skills for creating art and sound, I'm only good at making games. SC2 allows me to work on my own wondrous creations without having to track down a team of unreliable nerds to help me. I certainly can't guarantee any profits, either.
The availability of a distribution system is the biggest draw for me. Sure, there are tons of problems with b.net, but the idea is that it's possible for me to instantly distribute my work to thousands of people.
I love to program, but I am here to make incredible games. I.e., I want to make a complete product. Anyone can noodle around and create tech demos with any type of technology, but they will never reach a broad audience and they are absolutely forgettable. If you want your work to be enjoyed by tens of thousands of people, you need to make an complete game. If you want to make a game by yourself, then SC2 editor is the tool for you.
see thats where I disagree...as of right now, its NOT sc2 editor. flash on newgrounds Unity/unreal/hammer on steam ..ect thats where its at if you want people to see it as well.
Even then if you are only using the assests in sc2.. even with new gameplay, your game is still going to be like all the others, theres only so much you can do to make it unique. if your going to spend them time to make it unqiue, with our own UI, and graphics..ect.. then moving out of it is a grand idea, and as the OP said, its very very easy, a lot easier than people think.
Once the Pop system is changed around, I think sc2 mapping will be a grand place to be, just not right now.
No modding tools except MAP editor.
No official exporter/importer for models. So all you can do is make MAPS. And modding the game is hard since you dont have exporter/importer for models.
Hey, long time no see;p
wait what... I dont know if serious. (about the importing)
There might not be an "official" model handler, but there are tools that work... near perfectly if I may add... Did you not see Helicopters in SC 2? Hah.
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Curse PremiumWhile the unofficial tools don't support everything under the sun for modding, what it CAN do is already very comprehensive. You can export Models, control shaders with specularity, glows, team color and decal support, animations, attachments, particle effects and more. We're mostly limited to being unable to export certain particle effects, .m3a animations and portraits, all of which are superficial when considering you don't need these to get a unit working in game.
Tools for SC2 may come in the future as well, so citing this as a reason to leave SC2 mapping/modding is more of an excuse than anything.
This sounds interesting... how would I go about learning how to make games for mobile phones or browsers with no programming experience? Basically learn java?
I am a self learned programmer, and i am a web developer now. Sometimes i fiddle with some new technologies (you can see small part of my work here), but this is still good to stay with sc2. You can do fast prototyping without worrying about graphic or networking bugs. It is simple, it is fast, and it is fun. What you need more? If you can create good game here, you may port it to standalone application or web app. You should take a look on lower level too. Creating game binaries is little harder, but you twice the fun, and it has a lot more possibilities (you can do a LOT more thing, actually anything that your hardware can do). Imagine file-system based game :D you don't even need any graphical engine :P For more serious games try Ogre3D and similar libraries.
So, for sum it up, you shouldn't just quit modding community because of more "serious" work than editor, as long as it is fun for you. Do both, double your profit :P
your story seems like as Bob666. He made the original Btanks for W3, he also made Supreme Commander map for W3 which was as good as the original Supreme Commander and he also made 3D battlefields (fps) like map for w3 ().
Now he is making Java flight simulator as I know:
Sadly as I think, until you are indie in this fucking video game market, you will never make anything popular (expect some lucky one). With sc2/w3 you can say atleast that you used a multi corp's polished engine.
I hope with HOTS and with market place, they will make the custom map "search" atleast as good as in W3.
Also you guys forget to mention how hard to make lobby and multi player systems from scratch...
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ModeratorsMost people give up mapping because it is a painful amount of hard work before you get anything playable and there is always that nagging feeling called real life. Still the SC2 editor is a good artistic outlet as a hobby.
Contribute to the wiki (Wiki button at top of page) Considered easy altering of the unit textures?
https://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/resources/tutorials/179654-data-actor-events-message-texture-select-by-id
https://media.forgecdn.net/attachments/187/40/Screenshot2011-04-17_09_16_21.jpg
I think you said it beautifully there. Its a fantastic tool for people who love just to sit down and makes things, when they dont care if others see it or not, and just want to make something for fun.
Its the sc1 editor that I played around with for years so so so many years ago that got me into programming in the very first place. I think thats why I feel so strongly about the sc2 editor (due to what the sc1 editor meant to me)
But if you really want to make games for people to really play, and make a good money off of... yeah you shouldnt be scared to take the jump. Triggers are simple, but if you got them down, you understand the basics of programing already.