This most certainly isn't right. The SCVs do repair. They repair buildings the second you attack them. When I've rushed with Zerglings, they'd use up to 3 of them to repair it.
I've played all the AI's now, and beaten all but the Insane,
the reason for that is, i'm playing 2v2 co-op with a new to starcraft friend, he's very good at pumping out large defensive armies early game, aswell as getting some photon cannons and placing them well, the problem is however that he doesnt macro near well enough, nor does he tech at all.
In my plays i've discovered a few fundamental differences aswell as having made some observations.
The most difficult combo of AI, in any difficulty is terran + protoss, sentries work well together with marauders and marines while keeping a good distance, everyone gets to attack at some point.
The most difficult AI, overall, is the terran one, he snipes pretty well using ghosts and has the toughest rush composition to deal with, after his first wave he's nothing special though, his siege placement is completely awful.
The worst AI combo seems to be Zerg+protoss.
Easy/Very Easy AI do not scout
Medium AI Scouts a very limited area and amount.
Hard AI scouts up to your forces, his scouts will be late and will retreat after seeing your army.
Very Hard AI scouts your base, this only seems to make changes in the way he attacks you, he may for example decide to break the rocks to backdoor your base, or, in very rare cases do a reaper rush.
(very) Easy AI have the worst micro, try it, all other difficulties will at least focus units on lower hp.
Hard AI tech faster than very hard ai!
No Zerg AI can survive an early game cheese using protoss gateways
Ehh i could send u a replay but you seem to value 1v1 more so, ill look into it.
Here's a PvP game I did the other day on Very Hard. Like previously mentioned, Turtle -> Counterattack is a good strat, and the AI's seem to be purely offensive and predictable for their first wave. I really don't even need to scout, but that's bad form versus humans.
I'm not great by any means. I lack a lot of 'walking around knowledge' veteran SC1/2 players have by now.
Also, none of my replays allow camera following. Is this the same with everyone?
Thanks for the replay. The AI had a good wave coming at you, he just failed miserably at the positioning. His stalkers were stuck on your ramp being pummeled while his zealots were stuck behind the stalkers being useless. The instant counter from your end finished the job.
That game really proved positioning is incredibly important. I hope I will be able to teach my AI to pay more attention to the terrain before engaging a battle.
Everyone seems to have the problem with the pre-patch 16 replays. I really hope the next patch fixes it so I can watch the replays from Luxor and YiffMaster otherwise their value will be lost... :(
Not exactly what you asked for, but here's a 2v2 of me and a pall against two Very Hard AIs - patch 17, iirc.
It basically confirms what you saw in Lascero's replay. We had a really tough time, but due to the AI mucking up his positioning near our walled-off chokepoint, we managed to kill three of their waves and then obliterated them with a counter. It also didn't help that the AIs never bothered scouting me with flying units (overlords) lateron in the game, which means one of them went mass Zerglings in response to my stalkers - but I was following up with (unscouted) Collosi regardless, so the battle ended pretty grim on their side.
Once I can actually find the damn file that is... Where does the game save them nowadays? I named it but it's not anywhere in the Replays folder where all my other replays are. I can access it from the game.
Once I can actually find the damn file that is... Where does the game save them nowadays? I named it but it's not anywhere in the Replays folder where all my other replays are. I can access it from the game.
C:\Users\%name\Documents\StarCraft II Beta\Accounts\%accountnumber\%morenumbers\Replays\Multiplayer
I beat an Insane AI by holing up on an island in the map Extinction. Actually it was a FFA with 7 insane AI (all Zerg), and I just built two bases on the islands and defended them with missile turrets...I waited until all the AI had killed each other and only one was left. The last AI never built broodlords or a massive enough air force to destroy my defenses, so I eventually just amassed 16 battlecruisers and wiped out his ground army and all his bases.
Thanks for the replay, Mozared. I have added some more things to the list because of that one.
Indeed, the AI failed with the positioning at your wall. If it had bothered to nuke the two pylons, it would have more entrances, plus your gateways would be unpowered. Or tried one of the many other things it could have done to win that game. :P But easy talking afterward...
I would like to see a 1vs1 or 2vs2 on Kulas Ravine. Let's see what the AI can do with a terrain like that.
w00t! I've been studying human vs human strategies as well. And watching all those WhiteRa vs TheLittleOne videos on YouTube (plus 100 others) paid off! I did a Random vs Random Very Hard AI and I actually won :) Without using a cheese strat...
I wanted to know what actually won me the game so I checked the replay to see what the AI did wrong. At first I didn't understand why I kept winning the battles, because the AI always had more units in his army. The first victory I could account to a spine crawler and queen joining the battle, but not the second one in the mid to late game. I had 31 hydras and 4 roaches while he had 34 hydras and 12 roaches. The positioning wasn't that great for him, but for me neither, but it shouldn't have made that big of a deal. Apparently it was the upgrades that tipped the scales in my favor. My hydras were upgraded 2/2 while his were still 0/0. That little advantage caused me to win the battle with 15 hydras left. Finished the game with Ultras and Brood Lords a few minutes later just for the fun of it.
Writing that one down on the list. Getting upgrades is NOT an option and I can't believe the current AI didn't get any.
@Ultraling:
by no unit micro I meant that weakened units do not retreat, and by not repairing I meant that scvs do not repair weakened scvs (which i think they can). I already mentioned that attacking a building could lure out repair scvs.
--------------
I've played a few cooperative 2:2 games against very hard AI, and there's an overwhelming AI weakness that i'd like to point out to anyone making an AI or battling comps. It cannot defend well against an air harass. This is something that most players cannot do well, myself included. But the computer does this poorly to the point that it's exploitable. I might add a replay next time I'm in my starcraft environment.
player Attack: mutalisks attack workers
AI response: flees workers and sends entire force to the back of its base to deal with the harass, ABORTING ALL ELSE.
player response: flee air force, wait 15 seconds, send air force back in.
AI Response: troops have deserted the command center and workers are undefended again. workers flee and entire army runs back to base.
player response: repeat. the computer will never do anything differently
There are two problems here. First, the AI never splits its forces. Instead, it sends its entire force to deal with a few mutas. Thus, a few mutalisks in the base allows me to pin down the entire army and, in 2v2s, both AI armies. This stops their attacks against me and lets me pick off their workers and waste their resources.
Secondly, the computer is very very hesitant to build static D and does not respond to air harass with air-to-air. It did put up exactly one turret, and eventually it got a few vikings, but I got the impression that the vikings were part of its normal attack force rather than to counter the mutas.
Air harass can be very nasty against players, but the best solutions are static D, small defense forces, and air-to-air counters. Sometimes it's even best to sac the base and take out the enemy who is weakened by its force split.
I haven't tried this against insane, but I assume it's the same. What an insane (or custom) AI should do differently from a very hard AI is more intelligent counters to these sorts of things rather than just a huge mineral advantage. I think for very hard, these weaknesses are exactly how they should be. These are effective strategies against players; there's no need for the 2nd best AI to do better.
I received a replay from a friend of mine with the same worker harass strategy you just described. And it was indeed sad to see how poorly the AI responded. So that one is definitely on the list.
I received a replay from a friend of mine with the same worker harass strategy you just described. And it was indeed sad to see how poorly the AI responded. So that one is definitely on the list.
quite late, already desinstalled the beta. However, it's easy to reproduce, just tech fast a supply depot and a barrack, make 1 or 2 marines and get the best position in their base entry to make bunkers. As you make them you keep filling them with rines and meanwhile you tech for siege tanks and some extra AA. then you bring the siege tanks and finish the job.
The game has been released, so my research continues!
If you have managed to beat the AI on Very Hard or Insane in the retail version of the game, please send me the replay.
Either attach it to your post on this forum or send it to maarten AT 3tg.nl
Hey ! I recently tried to beat some AI and have had good success. Now, I haven't checked all the forums to see if I did something routine or if it was something epic, but I'll give you two replays.
me as Terran vs 2 Insane Zergs
me as Terran vs 3 Very Hard Zergs
Cheese involved, to some extent. Long replays. Tell me what you think. The idea of the Fortress came from a pro replay that I saw where the Terran player had so much minerals that he didn't have anything to use it for. I kept blowing up my own buildings when I used them to block the ramps, so I tried to use a Fortress.
If a replay falls in a forest and no one watches it, does it still make a sound ?
I did one more replay against 3 Very Hard AIs. No blatant AI exploits used, no running off to an island expansion and turtling up with turrets. I am kinda lucky that the AI was scared of my tanks like that. They come close, I'm ready for them (somewhat) and they keep retreating after wasting valuable units. Rinse and repeat. I'm exploiting the different levels of terrain to abuse tanks.
The "simplest" way to beat the insane AI is to rush it... 6pool, cannon, or proxy barracks at a 7 or 8 pool... Youtube is a great resource for finding how to do these builds, as well as achievements and other stuff.
If you want to beat it without rushing, the next simplest way is to turtle (good old SC style). Hunker down with siege tanks or Colosus (zerg can turtle, but it's a bit rougher with something like spine crawlers and hydras or broodlords if you can make it there...)
Just know that if you wall yourself in (it doesn't even have to be completely) the comp will retreat, tech a little, and build a HUUUGE (diverse) force. So you have to be ready for it.
Wow, I rarely play that long of a game with an AI... even an Insane difficulty AI will sometimes wait FOREVER to expand to a 2nd base? and neither of the insane AIs ever tech past tier 2?
It took a lot of time because I was playing against 2 insane AI and because it was my first time beating them. One is a different thing. It's completely ridiculous that they don't do their weapon/armor upgrades. They do go for Ultralisks, but not for Brood Lords. I don't remember if Ultralisks require the final "town hall" upgrade.
It seems to me like the insane AI knows it has a lot of time before it needs to get an expansion, but they're just being silly about it. If they saved a bit their units instead of just wasting them like that, they could get expansions for almost nothing. It's not even much of a positional concept, it's just about being a bit less aggressive, and I guess they won't have any of it !
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This most certainly isn't right. The SCVs do repair. They repair buildings the second you attack them. When I've rushed with Zerglings, they'd use up to 3 of them to repair it.
I've played all the AI's now, and beaten all but the Insane,
the reason for that is, i'm playing 2v2 co-op with a new to starcraft friend, he's very good at pumping out large defensive armies early game, aswell as getting some photon cannons and placing them well, the problem is however that he doesnt macro near well enough, nor does he tech at all.
In my plays i've discovered a few fundamental differences aswell as having made some observations.
The most difficult combo of AI, in any difficulty is terran + protoss, sentries work well together with marauders and marines while keeping a good distance, everyone gets to attack at some point.
The most difficult AI, overall, is the terran one, he snipes pretty well using ghosts and has the toughest rush composition to deal with, after his first wave he's nothing special though, his siege placement is completely awful.
The worst AI combo seems to be Zerg+protoss.
Easy/Very Easy AI do not scout
Medium AI Scouts a very limited area and amount.
Hard AI scouts up to your forces, his scouts will be late and will retreat after seeing your army.
Very Hard AI scouts your base, this only seems to make changes in the way he attacks you, he may for example decide to break the rocks to backdoor your base, or, in very rare cases do a reaper rush.
(very) Easy AI have the worst micro, try it, all other difficulties will at least focus units on lower hp.
Hard AI tech faster than very hard ai!
No Zerg AI can survive an early game cheese using protoss gateways
Ehh i could send u a replay but you seem to value 1v1 more so, ill look into it.
Here's a PvP game I did the other day on Very Hard. Like previously mentioned, Turtle -> Counterattack is a good strat, and the AI's seem to be purely offensive and predictable for their first wave. I really don't even need to scout, but that's bad form versus humans.
I'm not great by any means. I lack a lot of 'walking around knowledge' veteran SC1/2 players have by now.
Also, none of my replays allow camera following. Is this the same with everyone?
@Lascero: Go
Thanks for the replay. The AI had a good wave coming at you, he just failed miserably at the positioning. His stalkers were stuck on your ramp being pummeled while his zealots were stuck behind the stalkers being useless. The instant counter from your end finished the job.
That game really proved positioning is incredibly important. I hope I will be able to teach my AI to pay more attention to the terrain before engaging a battle.
Everyone seems to have the problem with the pre-patch 16 replays. I really hope the next patch fixes it so I can watch the replays from Luxor and YiffMaster otherwise their value will be lost... :(
Not exactly what you asked for, but here's a 2v2 of me and a pall against two Very Hard AIs - patch 17, iirc.
It basically confirms what you saw in Lascero's replay. We had a really tough time, but due to the AI mucking up his positioning near our walled-off chokepoint, we managed to kill three of their waves and then obliterated them with a counter. It also didn't help that the AIs never bothered scouting me with flying units (overlords) lateron in the game, which means one of them went mass Zerglings in response to my stalkers - but I was following up with (unscouted) Collosi regardless, so the battle ended pretty grim on their side.
Once I can actually find the damn file that is... Where does the game save them nowadays? I named it but it's not anywhere in the Replays folder where all my other replays are. I can access it from the game.
C:\Users\%name\Documents\StarCraft II Beta\Accounts\%accountnumber\%morenumbers\Replays\Multiplayer
On Win 7
@Lascero: Go
Ah! In the accounts folder. That's stupid, I was scrolling through my old replays. Well then, here you go, Tops.
I beat an Insane AI by holing up on an island in the map Extinction. Actually it was a FFA with 7 insane AI (all Zerg), and I just built two bases on the islands and defended them with missile turrets...I waited until all the AI had killed each other and only one was left. The last AI never built broodlords or a massive enough air force to destroy my defenses, so I eventually just amassed 16 battlecruisers and wiped out his ground army and all his bases.
@Mozared: Go
Thanks for the replay, Mozared. I have added some more things to the list because of that one. Indeed, the AI failed with the positioning at your wall. If it had bothered to nuke the two pylons, it would have more entrances, plus your gateways would be unpowered. Or tried one of the many other things it could have done to win that game. :P But easy talking afterward...
I would like to see a 1vs1 or 2vs2 on Kulas Ravine. Let's see what the AI can do with a terrain like that.
w00t! I've been studying human vs human strategies as well. And watching all those WhiteRa vs TheLittleOne videos on YouTube (plus 100 others) paid off! I did a Random vs Random Very Hard AI and I actually won :) Without using a cheese strat...
I wanted to know what actually won me the game so I checked the replay to see what the AI did wrong. At first I didn't understand why I kept winning the battles, because the AI always had more units in his army. The first victory I could account to a spine crawler and queen joining the battle, but not the second one in the mid to late game. I had 31 hydras and 4 roaches while he had 34 hydras and 12 roaches. The positioning wasn't that great for him, but for me neither, but it shouldn't have made that big of a deal. Apparently it was the upgrades that tipped the scales in my favor. My hydras were upgraded 2/2 while his were still 0/0. That little advantage caused me to win the battle with 15 hydras left. Finished the game with Ultras and Brood Lords a few minutes later just for the fun of it.
Writing that one down on the list. Getting upgrades is NOT an option and I can't believe the current AI didn't get any.
if you do a simple bunker rush, they'll keep suiciding their units into them.
@YiffMaster: Go
I received a replay from a friend of mine with the same worker harass strategy you just described. And it was indeed sad to see how poorly the AI responded. So that one is definitely on the list.
@BlinkHawk: Go
Do you have a replay of that?
quite late, already desinstalled the beta. However, it's easy to reproduce, just tech fast a supply depot and a barrack, make 1 or 2 marines and get the best position in their base entry to make bunkers. As you make them you keep filling them with rines and meanwhile you tech for siege tanks and some extra AA. then you bring the siege tanks and finish the job.
The game has been released, so my research continues!
If you have managed to beat the AI on Very Hard or Insane in the retail version of the game, please send me the replay. Either attach it to your post on this forum or send it to maarten AT 3tg.nl
Hey ! I recently tried to beat some AI and have had good success. Now, I haven't checked all the forums to see if I did something routine or if it was something epic, but I'll give you two replays.
me as Terran vs 2 Insane Zergs
me as Terran vs 3 Very Hard Zergs
Cheese involved, to some extent. Long replays. Tell me what you think. The idea of the Fortress came from a pro replay that I saw where the Terran player had so much minerals that he didn't have anything to use it for. I kept blowing up my own buildings when I used them to block the ramps, so I tried to use a Fortress.
If a replay falls in a forest and no one watches it, does it still make a sound ?
I did one more replay against 3 Very Hard AIs. No blatant AI exploits used, no running off to an island expansion and turtling up with turrets. I am kinda lucky that the AI was scared of my tanks like that. They come close, I'm ready for them (somewhat) and they keep retreating after wasting valuable units. Rinse and repeat. I'm exploiting the different levels of terrain to abuse tanks.
Tell me what you think ...
The "simplest" way to beat the insane AI is to rush it... 6pool, cannon, or proxy barracks at a 7 or 8 pool... Youtube is a great resource for finding how to do these builds, as well as achievements and other stuff.
If you want to beat it without rushing, the next simplest way is to turtle (good old SC style). Hunker down with siege tanks or Colosus (zerg can turtle, but it's a bit rougher with something like spine crawlers and hydras or broodlords if you can make it there...)
Just know that if you wall yourself in (it doesn't even have to be completely) the comp will retreat, tech a little, and build a HUUUGE (diverse) force. So you have to be ready for it.
@gyomalin: Go
Wow, I rarely play that long of a game with an AI... even an Insane difficulty AI will sometimes wait FOREVER to expand to a 2nd base? and neither of the insane AIs ever tech past tier 2?
@Anthius: Go
It took a lot of time because I was playing against 2 insane AI and because it was my first time beating them. One is a different thing. It's completely ridiculous that they don't do their weapon/armor upgrades. They do go for Ultralisks, but not for Brood Lords. I don't remember if Ultralisks require the final "town hall" upgrade.
It seems to me like the insane AI knows it has a lot of time before it needs to get an expansion, but they're just being silly about it. If they saved a bit their units instead of just wasting them like that, they could get expansions for almost nothing. It's not even much of a positional concept, it's just about being a bit less aggressive, and I guess they won't have any of it !