Huh? I suppose in essence simplified friction (i.e. a "constant friction") is just a number in front of the force which would equate to the same thing as multiplying mass by a fraction, but is it static friction or kinematic friction (or both) and does it work by applying a force with a vector opposite to the apply force's vector?
I guess it really doesn't matter. The problem I have is that the mechanics of using a persistent effect to apply a continuous small force is that it does not act like realistic friction. If a missile explodes near a unit, or if that unit is hit by a sword, that is a single impulse, whereas the frictional force in reality would apply as long as the unit is moving along the ground. When the pushing force (i.e. the explosion or the sword strike) also becomes a constant force, then it renders the friction meaningless.
Huh? I suppose in essence simplified friction (i.e. a "constant friction") is just a number in front of the force which would equate to the same thing as multiplying mass by a fraction, but is it static friction or kinematic friction (or both) and does it work by applying a force with a vector opposite to the apply force's vector?
I guess it really doesn't matter. The problem I have is that the mechanics of using a persistent effect to apply a continuous small force is that it does not act like realistic friction. If a missile explodes near a unit, or if that unit is hit by a sword, that is a single impulse, whereas the frictional force in reality would apply as long as the unit is moving along the ground. When the pushing force (i.e. the explosion or the sword strike) also becomes a constant force, then it renders the friction meaningless.
No you meant friction on an unit. Read what you have said. You said apply force does not simulate friction.
You still have not answered why my previous question of why you said
"That's like saying if I punched a track runner, he should fly farther than a little kid because he has higher acceleration and speed. How does that make sense? ", that is acceleration of the object does not matter.
When you know you made a mistake, it's better to admit it.
I meant that an object's ability to accelerate by its own power doesn't affect the acceleration applied from a force (in reality). I was unclear; you misread me. I did explain what I meant.
As for apply force not simulating friction... to be precisely clear, apply force is unable to apply a single large force. As it fails in this task, its friction is meaningless for my purposes (and anyone else who wants realistic knockback), so I count that as failing to simulate friction.
I meant that an object's ability to accelerate by its own power doesn't affect the acceleration applied from a force (in reality). I was unclear; you misread me. I did explain what I meant.
As for apply force not simulating friction... to be precisely clear, apply force is unable to apply a single large force. As it fails in this task, its friction is meaningless for my purposes (and anyone else who wants realistic knockback), so I count that as failing to simulate friction.
Now... back to more productive tasks.
Oh what? Really? Then you still haven't understood what apply force does. You kidding me? "Object's ability to accelerate by its own power doesn't affect the acceleration applied from a force", this is true using Effect - apply force. I even gave you a push cart example. However, when there is high acceleration on an unit [it moves faster because it already has acceleration], it's the acceleration on the unit, not acceleration on the force... In my previous post I even explained the fact you are not considering that unit could be moving at that time and that you are thinking that unit is stationary.
Only way to break "this" law of physics using the editor is setting object's movement speed (constantly moving, minimum, maximum speed in editor) to a constant.
It's obvious that you haven't even looked at or tested apply force and just rambling about it. I do not wish to waste more time on explaining how apply force works, you are certainly not going to even test it. So now... back to more productive task!
Ended up having to create 2 (search area) effects to pull it off 1 for apply force the other for add speed multiplyer. It works perfect. Actually I need to adjust it a little bit the units go flying of the screen so fast they almost disappear. Had to walk quite a distance to locate one that I threw off. LOL thanks for your help guys.
Would it be possible for you to share what you did with the rest of the class? I'm interested in seeing this myself.
This is the best I could do for showing you the ability. I lowered the push radius down (didn't want them flying off the screen). Also showed another ability I'm currently working on at the end.
Create your ability as effect-instant. Create a persistent effect which links 2 search area effects (1 for applying a speed increase to enemies the other for applying the force effect). have your speed increase link to a behavior that increases speed for a very short duration. That's it. The reason you have to have 2 search area effects is because you can't have 1 search area effect that applies both the behavior and the apply force.
Really useful thread! This helped me overcome my problem with using forces... I didn't think of changing max speed.
The counter-intuitive part of this is a unit's possible speed alters how strong the force is, not its current speed. This is what xenrathe was trying to get across with the track runner analogy. Two units with zero acceleration of equal mass can have different effects from the same applied force. This isn't really counter-intuitive so much as it just breaks the laws of physics.
Yea, ty thalassicus, Im no physics expert but I'm pretty sure that's what Xenrathe was saying. Will probably be making use of apply force with this knowledge. I'm assuming its a built in knockback function.
I've been having the same issue with Apply Force; no matter how much I apply or how often I apply it, the units get knocked back at an absolutely pathetic speed. Which speed do you increase to get this to work? I would assume it would be "Movement Speed Maximum," but the editor doesn't let me increase that beyond the default value of 160.
I assume by now you've solved the problem already. But for future reference, the unit that is being pushed must have a behavior modification that increases his movement speed (by multiplier or bonus)
Thank you, I would like to say thanks for that. I was wondering why it was moving not by much, then I read this and the movement modifier now its working perfectly. I was surprised I didn't think of it earlier.
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@zifoon: Go
Huh? I suppose in essence simplified friction (i.e. a "constant friction") is just a number in front of the force which would equate to the same thing as multiplying mass by a fraction, but is it static friction or kinematic friction (or both) and does it work by applying a force with a vector opposite to the apply force's vector?
I guess it really doesn't matter. The problem I have is that the mechanics of using a persistent effect to apply a continuous small force is that it does not act like realistic friction. If a missile explodes near a unit, or if that unit is hit by a sword, that is a single impulse, whereas the frictional force in reality would apply as long as the unit is moving along the ground. When the pushing force (i.e. the explosion or the sword strike) also becomes a constant force, then it renders the friction meaningless.
No you meant friction on an unit. Read what you have said. You said apply force does not simulate friction.
You still have not answered why my previous question of why you said
"That's like saying if I punched a track runner, he should fly farther than a little kid because he has higher acceleration and speed. How does that make sense? ", that is acceleration of the object does not matter.
When you know you made a mistake, it's better to admit it.
@zifoon: Go
I meant that an object's ability to accelerate by its own power doesn't affect the acceleration applied from a force (in reality). I was unclear; you misread me. I did explain what I meant.
As for apply force not simulating friction... to be precisely clear, apply force is unable to apply a single large force. As it fails in this task, its friction is meaningless for my purposes (and anyone else who wants realistic knockback), so I count that as failing to simulate friction.
Now... back to more productive tasks.
Oh what? Really? Then you still haven't understood what apply force does. You kidding me? "Object's ability to accelerate by its own power doesn't affect the acceleration applied from a force", this is true using Effect - apply force. I even gave you a push cart example. However, when there is high acceleration on an unit [it moves faster because it already has acceleration], it's the acceleration on the unit, not acceleration on the force... In my previous post I even explained the fact you are not considering that unit could be moving at that time and that you are thinking that unit is stationary.
Only way to break "this" law of physics using the editor is setting object's movement speed (constantly moving, minimum, maximum speed in editor) to a constant.
It's obvious that you haven't even looked at or tested apply force and just rambling about it. I do not wish to waste more time on explaining how apply force works, you are certainly not going to even test it. So now... back to more productive task!
Would it be possible for you to share what you did with the rest of the class? I'm interested in seeing this myself.
@Psiclone01: Go
This is the best I could do for showing you the ability. I lowered the push radius down (didn't want them flying off the screen). Also showed another ability I'm currently working on at the end.
http://www.livestream.com/etravex/video?clipId=pla_c1c24e5e-b5a9-437e-a9e8-b08705a86358
@Etravex: Go
Nice vid.
I meant can you show the work you've done, all the behavior/effect setups and all that?
@Psiclone01: Go
Create your ability as effect-instant. Create a persistent effect which links 2 search area effects (1 for applying a speed increase to enemies the other for applying the force effect). have your speed increase link to a behavior that increases speed for a very short duration. That's it. The reason you have to have 2 search area effects is because you can't have 1 search area effect that applies both the behavior and the apply force.
@Etravex: Go
Thanks.
As a side note, your response helped me complete an ability I was conflicted about. So, thanks on two fronts.
Really useful thread! This helped me overcome my problem with using forces... I didn't think of changing max speed.
The counter-intuitive part of this is a unit's possible speed alters how strong the force is, not its current speed. This is what xenrathe was trying to get across with the track runner analogy. Two units with zero acceleration of equal mass can have different effects from the same applied force. This isn't really counter-intuitive so much as it just breaks the laws of physics.
Yea, ty thalassicus, Im no physics expert but I'm pretty sure that's what Xenrathe was saying. Will probably be making use of apply force with this knowledge. I'm assuming its a built in knockback function.
I've been having the same issue with Apply Force; no matter how much I apply or how often I apply it, the units get knocked back at an absolutely pathetic speed. Which speed do you increase to get this to work? I would assume it would be "Movement Speed Maximum," but the editor doesn't let me increase that beyond the default value of 160.
@Venificus: Go
I assume by now you've solved the problem already. But for future reference, the unit that is being pushed must have a behavior modification that increases his movement speed (by multiplier or bonus)
@canary40: Go
Thank you, I would like to say thanks for that. I was wondering why it was moving not by much, then I read this and the movement modifier now its working perfectly. I was surprised I didn't think of it earlier.