SC2Mapster

Another suggestion, I think we should be able to choose in the beginning whether we want to do East vs. West or just a, "see which team can last longer" type of thing like in Vexal TD, because I'm very tired of joining games where ONE player leaves/rage quits, then the rest of the team leaves and the game ends just like that with my side being the "victor", I put it in quotes because idk if u can even call us victors by winning due to quitters, either that...or u could just let the game keep going even after one side "wins" but I know u plan on implementing a retribution buying system for others teams so I suppose what I said in the beginning would make the most sense.

@ Kvothe901

I personally don't think there is such a thing as TOO easy on the easiest difficulty. People should not really be playing on the easiest difficulty unless they are noob training. That is what easy is for. I think most of us would want to play on normal if we could get people that at least semi know what they are doing and will not leave.

@ VeridianEntropy

That being said, people leaving is what needs to be addressed first and foremost. Several people has mentioned several ideas about things to do, the most important things to focus on I believe is the top players and the speed bonus. The top players almost always leave in pub games. The way the game is set up, especially with speed bonus, if you do not get the speed bonus most of the rounds, the top players can not keep up and will slowly but surely begin to leak. Once they start leaking, it only gets worse. It reaches a point where even boss kills will no longer help them. Since they do not get leaks from players above them like every one else, something needs to be done. That being said, the bottom player who, on a good team, does not get crap, can still hold his own. The setup with the bottom player works. Maybe the top player needs something, dont know what, but something.

Also, as baxter411 said about towers, the high level towers are just way too expensive to be very practical anymore. I have watched time and again recently as people have done tons better than me by building gigantic ass mazes that take forever for shit to go through and I got to a rocket launcher guy before anyone but had a smaller maze. This is counter intuitive and irritating. I think most people that play a TD map find enjoyment in 3 things. 1) Killing lots of stuff. 2) Building big flashy towers to kill lots of stuff. 3) Making it through as close to the "end" as they can.

In this game there is a clear strategy of using the top players to weaken stuff so that the middle player kills most and the end player plays cleanup. Try telling the 2 people at the top "Hey you're not going to get many, if any, kills later in the game. But it's ok, thats the way its supposed to be and we'll still win." See how many say F you and leave. I know it works, it may not be the way it works on a team of "good" players, but it works in most pugs that stick around. And when you are the top player... it... is... BORING. When your other players wont share minerals, you start missing bonuses or some idiot didnt build a maze worth a crap and no bosses get killed, you fall behind and YAY no more kills for joo! Not fun. Still, I think this TD has a LOT of potential, or I wouldnt even bother with this.

I love this TD, it's really awesome and creative... except its simply impossible to keep up at this point. The first major turning point is: The bosses, especially the first one. If you can kill him, you feel GODMODE. If you dont, you feel craptastic trying to keep up. So i was wondering about a few things, but no need to implement them all, just some kind of balance brainstorming:

• Reduce the Boss health by 25-30%. Maybe just the first one.
• Make the boss give half the minerals they give now, give the other half as a wave bonus for trying. It will lessen the Godmode/Terrible.
• Give some kind of income every 30 seconds. Maybe 5% of your total minerals every 30 seconds, at a minimum of 3 (so you can -at least- afford 1 tower every 30 seconds... it wont change the world, but will help), It will also help the "boredom game" when you have to save up the UNGODLY amount of money you need for protoss towers.
• The Tier 1 Protoss Tower, it's useless now since the nerf, unless you want a slow tower. The Zerg Tower is 3 dps, with Splash. The Terran Tower is 4 dps, with Air attack. The protoss tower is 3 dps, with no splash, and no air, and nothing else. The 5 dps wouldve been fine, because that's the only thing its good at.
• The Air waves still feels too much of a chore, because unless you're in a premade, its 90% impossible to force the bottom to get more than one anti-air tower.
• Add an auto-share. Use a trigger to see how many enemies Top leaked. And say they give 4 minerals. For each of middle/bottom kills (up to the leaked amount), the kills will ALSO gives 50% of the minerals to Top players.

I would LOVE to share the leaks with my fellow top players, i just cant unless i give them a whole FIFTY minerals... your game simply does not support this kind of income. I tried to be nice and share a whole 50 minerals once... I was about 40 minerals lacking on that one tower upgrade that wouldve given the dps to kill the boss a few waves later...

Its one thing to expect people to share, especially in these conditions. Its a whole other problem to try and explain "Ill give you 50 minreals, use 10 and give me the rest back"

This is one of the best TDs out there at the moment however I have a few issues with the map that until they get fixed I just won't play the map anymore. I absolutely hate how you have to be reliant on the other team to stay in order to play the game. When you have a good defense going you want to see how long you can go for not if you can beat the other team. One asshole quits and the whole team quits and then the game ends and you win around the same spot that you won 5 other times and you dont actually get to play the game. This map needs to be changed so that the game continues when the other team dies. Apart from that this is one of the best TD games out there. Great map, but if you don't change it so that the game continues nobody is going to play it more than a few times.

As everyone else is saying about the Speed Bonus, if I'm on a side that doesn't get the speed bonus we never catch up and that team ends up leaving, especially if we don't kill the bosses.

There should be a way to play with 4 on one side without the other side, I think it would be much more enjoyable and finally be able to play a game that isn't on Easy.

Everyone seems to be shouting at anyone who joins a new game about how they need to play in order to be successful. Was everyone the same as me? Make a few towers that aren't in a maze of any kind and end up leaking around wave 5 and on. Maybe a clever way to describe quickly to anyone who plays the game on what they need to do.

Aside from all that, on the list with being able to play without the other team present... how many games do people play where 1-2 "die" in the beginning because they didn't build a tower? I feel like of all things that could be the easiest to tackle first.

I love this map. I have been playing it all day and night and it's exciting to see all the updates that come. I've only ever made it to wave 50 1 time and along with that, wave 25 1 time. Everyone leaves so often!

Last but not least! It feels incredibly easy when you get 4 players that know what they are doing but then again, no one plays on a setting higher than easy for fear of new players.

You've probably noticed by now, but your map is 3rd or 4th most popular out of nowhere, not counting the featured maps. You're right behind stalwarts Nexus Wars, the relatively new Colony Line Wars, and some others. However, this isn't due necessarily to popularity and people playing this game repetitively. You have to understand the frequency with which people drop and thus how quickly new games get started and how they end almost as fast.

Again, the game is hard, but not for me, for the people who wimp out. There has got to be a disclaimer saying "Bosses don't kill you!" or whatever. That and they probably never want to play after that first horrid experience of leaking everything and getting nothing.

I was able to play a game last night to 46-47. That's good, but there were only two per team, no boss kills, and I was top player leaking to the bottom, earning 2-3 kills during waves 30-40. Game was made enjoyable because of chatting with the folks I was playing with. I still believe that wave bonuses should be reinstated while keeping the speed bonus.

Still, fun map, good map, and it's skyrocket to the near top of the custom maps list is indicative of this. But because people don't know what they're in for, the map may just as soon disappear into oblivion like many other over the past several weeks.

so i've been following this game and playing it pretty much exclusively[just finished a game, actually]...and here are a few things i've noticed:

1- speed bonus. most of everyone posting here can agree that the speed bonus is killing games because the other team leaves after 3-4 rounds of losing the speed bonus. i suggest removing it and replacing it with a wave completed bonus, like before. that way, if your team makeup is good overall, you can see higher levels without fear of the other team leaving.

2- victory. have you played vexal tower d? well, it has an interesting concept of victory. in team mode, once a team loses, the winning team can still go on. not only that, but the losing team players can stay in game and observe and even give hints. i was lucky enough to beat vexal with help from the losing team members that stayed on. i suggest that you allow the winning team to continue....most people will never see the higher rounds because of leavers and ragequitters.

3- towers. this may come as a shock to new players, but the way to win isn't relying on high level towers. they cost too much for the way you earn money in this game. honestly, i got to 30+ waves consistently using upgraded lvl 1-2 towers ONLY. throw in a few slow towers and a good maze...i can beat this if people didn't leave on the losing team. i think scaling down the cost of lvl 4-5 towers and their dmg accordingly will allow for a more variety of playstyles..though honestly, i will continue to stick with my lvl 1-2 towers. there's no feasible way to maze unless you mass lvl 1 towers. and then if i'm lucky and pound BOTH the lvl 2 bosses, i can build ONE lvl 4 tower. that's not really fun to have one badass tower in a HUGE maze.

4- pathing. change the direction of one of the arrows for the top players. why? because a straight shot is boring and as many have said here, once a leak appears, it's over. after 3-4 rounds, the top players that leak start leaving because it's impossible to come back unless they get large amounts of minerals from other team members. a change of pathing will allow for more creative mazes. notice i'm not trying to change the spawn number or difficulty. just a straight line kills most top players after the first boss.

5- income. i think mineral sharing is important for both teams. the middle player seems to accumulate the most income because of reason 4. once both top players leak, the middle player starts to gain tons of income. by sharing minerals, i think it will solve leaking problems as well as fighting over locations while in the lobby. since all players receive their own spawn, i don't see a reason why we can't share income from ALL kills.

that's all i have for now...so back to gaming.

one more thing....this game is amazing and i wouldn't be criticizing it if it wasn't enjoyable. most games i win after 2-3 nights or even less, so in consider them boring and without a challenge. the hardest part is for the author to find the balance between fun and doable and fun and difficult.

thanks for making this incredible map

The game is definitely not too hard, I would even say its too easy on easy now, its the speed bonus. I have yet to play past level 30 because of leavers. The speed bonus is one of the main reasons for people leaving, and nothing has changed, you lowered the minerals gained from the speed bonus, which has done nothing to stop one team from leaving. The game is such a waste of time, because its always the same, leaver leaver boss comes and the rest leave.

I think in general, you have to consider making this thing playable not just for 4 players, which would be great, but for 3, 2, or 1 per team. Sure, optimized for 4 per team, but should still be playable as people drop or get wiped out or whatever. Other nitpicky thing that I don't know why keeps on happening, but again, my tower got kaboomed because I blocked only I didn't. I had two towers at the entrance, and 6 around the square leaving a 2 square opening. It kaboomed one of the six. What is up with that? I was in the top left of West team.

Something needs to be done about a lot of things. The speed bonus, its interesting, but it simply results in one team leaving in a few rounds and no one having fun. The bosses are so hard that, once again, one team leaves and no one has any fun. The amount of time in between each round, since you now cant build during a wave, is so short that people constantly run out of time before finishing their maze, resulting in leaks, and one team leaving and no one having any fun. Starting to notice a pattern here? You seem to be playing with friends or generally with good people so you don't seem to understand this, most people are not good. Most people don't seem to want to hang around unless their team is killing at least MOST of the stuff. Once people start falling behind, which is every freaking game now, someone leaves, once one person leaves, someone else does and BAM no game and no fun. This was extremely fun several patches ago, not so much now. Difficulty is nice, but only so much. That is what the difficulty selector is for. Easy should be freaking easy. Not hard but easier than everything else, EASY. As in, even crappy people will still kill bosses. You can NOT design difficulty of easy around you and your friends, you are destroying what was once a nice mod.

BTW, I attempted to play 6 games tonight, only one of them made it to the kerrigan boss, and that game lost 1 person from each team real fast. Every other game was ended before or during the first boss wave. That's right, whole teams left before the first boss, on easy.

Something needs to be done about the speed bonus only being awarded to one team, I have played this game maybe 15 times in the last few days. The average game lasts until maybe wave 15, as I'm reading the comments this seems to be occurring a lot. One team is killing faster, and this gives them a significant advantage, this goes on for 4-5 waves and the other team is so far behind they will never catch up to getting the speed bonus resulting in their team leaving. All you need to do is make the speed bonus set against a certain time frame allowing both teams to get the bonus. It's a good map otherwise and I enjoy making the paths, but seriously it's getting absolutely retarded with leavers because of that stupid speed bonus, change that and your map becomes infinitely more playable.

Hey VE!! I love the map, but I've played a few games today on the new patch and there are a lot of problems. (Today's date: 8/31)

0.) "Easy" is impossible.

1.) The money reward after each round needs to occur without a bonus for speed or not leaking. It's impossible to win without the reward after each round.

2.) Air is basically impossible to beat.

3.) The first boss is impossible to beat, never even got to a second boss tonight.

Other then that, the map is awesome and really draws out some great creativity in everyone who's played it a few times. The problem is that if there is one noob on a team, it's game over for that team. I'd love to play it with some friends but finding 8 people that want to play at once is impossible. If the game would scale better to the number of active players it'd be awesome so I could have myself and 3 other friends play together.

Just played a game where I was the middle. A few bugs.

First the easy to describe: I was building towers. The thing said "East Team block removing tower" and tower exploded. Problem: I did not block. As you know yourself, it could not have been due to leaks because I was building and the wave completed sound had already sounded and we were in between waves. This occurred a second time only it was West Team and I still got exploded.

To note, I had blocked during a wave early on. One lane maze, but around the green arrow . I had blocked it off on accident, but the creeps kept coming, nothing exploded, and they jsut went along their merry way. Just to let you know.

And if the team leaks, then no bonus, not even a wave one.

Thanks for making a fun map, it's all I've been playing for the past couple days. But this new update is making me rethink my dedication.

Issues I have with the current version of the game:

Speed Bonus: Bonus only awarded to the side that kills the fastest. There's an inherent problem here. This new feature makes the game maybe 15, 20 minutes long. You have 50 waves. It is highly unlikely anyone will see wave 15 with this new feature. Leakers don't get any money to build any towers left, making them drop. People won't get any money at all to build or upgrade and mazing is rendered moot all for the team that will win simply because they had the money. Not because they killed more or leaked less, but they killed faster. I don't mind a speed bonus in addition to a wave bonus in general. I understand concerns for long games, but your map is long by design. You designed your map to have small towers and encourage creative mazing and that's what happened. Now you've made 75% of the work you've done useless because no one will ever see it since one side will always lose and get no money and the other side will always win and get more money.

The concept behind the Speed Bonus is encouraging though. I can see how such a bonus can encourage sides to maze less upgrade more. But the speed bonus suddenly heavily favors one side over the other in minutes. That's the fundamental problem here. Reinstate wave wages or salaries at some amount that isn't too much, although it wasn't much to begin with, and keep speed bonuses as a bonus.

Mazing is necessary because your bosses have so much health there's no other way to kill them.

The Last and Lone Defender

If the bottom person drops, bump up the last defender bonus to the next up. If the top two people are left, split it. If one person is left, well, self explanatory. Also, if one person is left, shut down that second boss. If two people are left but they are not either of the top people, keep it to one boss. Game's hard enough as it is.

If the last person is the bottom, jack up his enemies or else he has the unfair advantage of always winning the speed bonus plus the last defender bonus and the added disadvantage of only killing 4 creeps for 16 minerals.

Non Competitive Team Play

While you may be addressing this later on, where's the competition? It's sort of in the Speed Bonus but not really. That's just determined by the skill and luck of decisions made by the players. Right now, it's just two simultaneous TD games going on, one side not really affecting the other through any active action or decisionmaking on their own. Perhaps some team powers like transfer all creeps on the field to the other side or some nonsense like that to make it interesting.

Late Game Play

Yes, I agree that late game is boring. This is not due to gigantic mazes. This is simply due to the fact that players are left with nothing to do late game because the enemies have ginormous health towards the end. The walk fast, the top don't kill them, but bottom or middle will. And you can't depend on human nature to share. Even if we would share, we can't due to SC2's restrictive sharing system at increments of 50 only. Is there no way to distribute team kills proportionally? Not even by damage, but just by hitting the guy. I'm not an expert into SC2 map editing or programming, but just a suggestion.

Also, on easy, unknown if you've fixed this in new release, but Waves 41-50 have 3-4 times the health of the wave 39. That makes no sense. If you can kill wave 39, you should be able to kill at least 3/4 of wave 41, not leak them all because now they have 50k health when u were able to take 20k health enemies.

you should make it let you build when a round is going ,on and be able to sell the towers in the round also.