@Delphinium1987: Go
Agreed. Blizzard gave us very little attention and their popularity rankings messed things up. Thanks for your take on the art side.
@Ultimaswc3: Go
Now this here is the key question - Lobbies. How well Valve handles this will most likely determine their success.
@Renee2islga: Go
I don't doubt your experience with either of the editors. In fact, I'm sure that you know them pretty well.
But suddenly what you're saying right now is that LoL and dota2 can't exist together and that one has to go. You're saying that dota2 will 'lose' and LoL will 'win' because Valve failed to push out the map editor earlier. Indeed, if Valve had completed their Source 2 engine earlier or even released it earlier, then it might have gathered a lot more attention. However, Valve likes to make sure that what they release isn't a buggy mess (I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here), so they make sure that things are mostly good to go before releasing things. Instead, why don't we just take what we have and go with it instead of complaining? Dota2 map editor is out, for better or worse, but let's find out what it can do.
Yes, time is crucial. Many games just flop within a few months. Luckily for us, sc2, lol, dota2 have not flopped... yet. Instead, lol and dota2 are still growing strong. Now that dota2 has an alpha map editor out, it should be able to stay firm for a while longer. There's no sign of its popularity decreasing, so giving the devs a few months or so to slowly play around with the editor before releasing games shouldn't be that much of a problem. In fact, if we look back to w3, it wasn't until TFT came out that the custom games scene really exploded.
By the way, regarding what people say about dota2 and lol being hardcore vs weekend warrior:
Just because someone plays dota2 doesn't mean that they're hardcore. The same goes for LoL. Just because they play LoL doesn't mean that they're simply weekend warriors. Many people I know (And I'm also talking about a community-sized population) play dota2 simply because it's more similar to dota. And they're not hardcore players at all. In fact, we would regularly go back and play some good ol w3 custom games now and then. For them, they just play to have fun. Obviously not the entire playerbase of dota2 is like this. But don't forget that this will also attract people who would just want to play custom games (People like me) to dota2, further boosting their numbers.
For now I think that everyone is still messing around. Some people would jump straight into trying to get a game out but they'll most likely hit some roadblocks along the way when they find out they don't know how to do X or Y. Given some time, good, concise tutorials should start coming out.
edit:
Actually, I want to talk about this a little
Engine or not doesn't matter if you can't grow up enough skilled mod makers to do mods for you, in time. That, is the issue I'm talking about. I'm not saying this tool is failed or can't be successful, but the decision of release it so later is obviously wrong.(Not necessary leading to its downfall though).
Yeah, for something as community-driven as custom games, Valve is relying on talented people to make stuff for them. Ideally, it's obvious that the best thing to do is to give a great map editor right from the start. But I doubt that Valve had already finished the Source 2 engine at that time. So, there were basically several options for them:
1. Release a buggy, non-tested dota2 on the unfinished Source 2 engine 1 year ago, complete with buggy map editor
2. Release the Source 1 engine dota2 with a buggy and limited map editor 1 year ago
3. Release the Source 1 engine dota2 with a good map editor, but the release needs to be delayed by 6 months or so
4. Release the Source 1 engine dota2 1 year ago, while working on the Source 2 engine behind the scenes then releasing the alpha map editor now.
The problems with options #1 and #2 is that a bad map editor greatly limits and frustrates the map makers. I've seen quite a few map makers become quite annoyed with the limitations of the sc2 map editor after they had been using the w3 editor. Option #3 is pretty good but that would mean delaying the release of dota2. During that period of time, all the potential players would most likely be moving to LoL, then at that time it would be harder to get them to play dota2 instead. Also, they would then be constrained by the limitations of the current Source1 engine.
With Option #4 however, by releasing the full game as promised, they have been able to build up an established playerbase. They then slowly work on their Source2 engine, which brings us to the present. Now, they have a great number of players, then they suddenly release an alpha map editor, which people eventually find out is being run on the new Souce2 engine. If you look at things from such a viewpoint, it should be fair to say that this wasn't a bad decision. Would you rather get your hands on a buggy, limited map editor which gets fixed ever so slowly, or would you rather wait a while longer and get your hands on a polished and fully fleshed out map editor? The bad editor would force you to spend hours on fiddly methods just to achieve a basic function. Eventually people would just get fed up with everything and leave. This is what happened with sc2. At release, the map editor had many limitations. Even though people made workarounds, the trouble wasn't really worth it.
You seem to have used the dota2 map editor a little and seem to be pleased with the scripting. What's your take on the current map editor? Does it have potential?
I've been somewhat closely following the dota 2 mod support for a while so I can help you with some misunderstandings.
What they've released right now isn't just any mod support. They've released their Source 2 engine. This is an entirely new engine which they've been working on for years. That's why it took them so long to release official mod support. And they've converted dota2 to be used by this new engine. What this basically means is that there are a whole lot of possibilities right now. It really looks like a true successor for the W3 custom games scene.
Most games can't survive for more than 3 months? SC2 is still around, isn't it? Although the custom game community is pretty much dead (There're like 8 people viewing this forum right now). Dota has been around since w3 days. Team Fortress 2 has been out for 7 years and has 50k players playing it right now! (Taken from steam stats site. And it's a weekday. In the morning.) And right now Dota2 has 500k players. LoL claims to have more players. However, do they have such modding tools? You're talking as if LoL already has full fledged mod support out.
Hopefully now you'll understand why the map editor for dota2 came out now.
But overall, every map maker should be keeping an eye on this. If this works out as expected, then it might be time to jump ship. I really really yearn to be able to play custom games like I did back in the day.
PS: I haven't been in sc2 for almost 2 years. When I logged back in to look at the custom games.... well the front page was almost entirely the same. I'm just popping by sc2mapster after seeing the news about dota2 and decided to see the reactions from here.
Played Runecraft last night. I wanted to unlock something in the third row of terran (Forgot which), but it was on the right side and had Requires Hellion as the requirements. I already unlocked Hellions but they still didn't let me upgrade it. Maybe I just don't quite understand how the upgrade system works (Since later on I just went and upgraded everything in the Terran tree and everything unlocked one by one)
@Iamthecreeper: Go
Sounded like a good idea at first but then again a vehicle would normally only get destroyed by the opponent team (It's easier to predict enemy AI and get away from them safely). So if there're things to salvage, most likely the opponents will get it anyway.
@acidragoon: Go
Come to think about it, a 3rd team does sound reasonably good. Let's assume that the original 2 teams are 5v5. Then make the zerg team contain only 2-3 players. Then give the zerg players either limited control over the units or some sort of heroic unit as well (Doesn't need to have the same mechanics like items.) Think of it as giving the zerg players just some random fun whilst upping the difficulty and strategies for the two teams.
What's the point of controlling normal vehicles when you could choose an overly powerful one? Also, wouldn't it be guaranteed defeat if one of your titans died mid-end game? Because it'd be too late for them to catch up already and the opposing team would have a big advantage.
Well it's not really bad to think that your map is amazing, it keeps you motivated. But what would be wrong is to force your ideals on other people by saying that it truly is amazing.
@DogmaiSEA
And to quote yourself, you really shouldn't be spending so much time typing out long walls of texts about... what you just typed. It leaves a rather bad impression. We all know you wish to create a revolutionary map. We all know you wish to up the standards of the maps out there. We all know how impressive you think this map will be. We all know how proud you feel about this great map. We all know how calm and collected your posts are. We all know how you seem to praise people to make them feel good. We all know how long your posts can get.
So seriously, we get your message. The sooner this map is out the better. Also, try not to type a huge long reply to this post. Hope you'll keep up the work though (On the map, not the posts =P )
Further elaborating on the splash damage area :
When comparing the dps of a non-splash tower with a splash dmg tower, it'd be wise to make the dps of the splash dmg tower 1/4 - 1/3 the dmg of a nonsplash tower. If the damage is 1/3, then the splash dmg tower will only be more effective than the non-splash tower when it hits more than 3 units at once.
Is the said TD a mazing TD or one where the routes are already set? If it's a mazing TD, it'd be better to make upgrading the towers more worthwhile than a bunch of non-upgraded ones. Also, be careful with adding armor to the enemy units. Armor can easily make a game much harder than originally planned.
So with maths, the things that you need to balance are
-Raw damage (Every shot fired)
-Attack speed
-Splash
I'd say that the signatures themselves are secure. The only insecure part is how we work around that signature, attacking it from a different, much easier direction.
This. Do you really believe that increasing the price will help in profits? To me it seems that it'll only discourage more players from buying it. As Maknyuzz said before, micro-transactions are actually the way to go. Release map-packs and stuff at a more reasonable price then I'm sure much more people would buy them. Sorta like the elusive Sc2 marketplace.
I remember one time when someone's name was 'not guilty'. somehow he was voted to get lynched. At the trial he said 'i'm not guilty'. He was pardoned, we went on to lynch another guy who happened to be the last mafia and won the game. lulz
0
Too bad they weren't very good at taking their own idea (w3 custom games) and making it better.
0
@Delphinium1987: Go Agreed. Blizzard gave us very little attention and their popularity rankings messed things up. Thanks for your take on the art side.
@Ultimaswc3: Go Now this here is the key question - Lobbies. How well Valve handles this will most likely determine their success.
0
@Renee2islga: Go I don't doubt your experience with either of the editors. In fact, I'm sure that you know them pretty well.
But suddenly what you're saying right now is that LoL and dota2 can't exist together and that one has to go. You're saying that dota2 will 'lose' and LoL will 'win' because Valve failed to push out the map editor earlier. Indeed, if Valve had completed their Source 2 engine earlier or even released it earlier, then it might have gathered a lot more attention. However, Valve likes to make sure that what they release isn't a buggy mess (I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here), so they make sure that things are mostly good to go before releasing things. Instead, why don't we just take what we have and go with it instead of complaining? Dota2 map editor is out, for better or worse, but let's find out what it can do.
Yes, time is crucial. Many games just flop within a few months. Luckily for us, sc2, lol, dota2 have not flopped... yet. Instead, lol and dota2 are still growing strong. Now that dota2 has an alpha map editor out, it should be able to stay firm for a while longer. There's no sign of its popularity decreasing, so giving the devs a few months or so to slowly play around with the editor before releasing games shouldn't be that much of a problem. In fact, if we look back to w3, it wasn't until TFT came out that the custom games scene really exploded.
By the way, regarding what people say about dota2 and lol being hardcore vs weekend warrior: Just because someone plays dota2 doesn't mean that they're hardcore. The same goes for LoL. Just because they play LoL doesn't mean that they're simply weekend warriors. Many people I know (And I'm also talking about a community-sized population) play dota2 simply because it's more similar to dota. And they're not hardcore players at all. In fact, we would regularly go back and play some good ol w3 custom games now and then. For them, they just play to have fun. Obviously not the entire playerbase of dota2 is like this. But don't forget that this will also attract people who would just want to play custom games (People like me) to dota2, further boosting their numbers.
For now I think that everyone is still messing around. Some people would jump straight into trying to get a game out but they'll most likely hit some roadblocks along the way when they find out they don't know how to do X or Y. Given some time, good, concise tutorials should start coming out.
edit: Actually, I want to talk about this a little
Yeah, for something as community-driven as custom games, Valve is relying on talented people to make stuff for them. Ideally, it's obvious that the best thing to do is to give a great map editor right from the start. But I doubt that Valve had already finished the Source 2 engine at that time. So, there were basically several options for them:
1. Release a buggy, non-tested dota2 on the unfinished Source 2 engine 1 year ago, complete with buggy map editor
2. Release the Source 1 engine dota2 with a buggy and limited map editor 1 year ago
3. Release the Source 1 engine dota2 with a good map editor, but the release needs to be delayed by 6 months or so
4. Release the Source 1 engine dota2 1 year ago, while working on the Source 2 engine behind the scenes then releasing the alpha map editor now.
The problems with options #1 and #2 is that a bad map editor greatly limits and frustrates the map makers. I've seen quite a few map makers become quite annoyed with the limitations of the sc2 map editor after they had been using the w3 editor. Option #3 is pretty good but that would mean delaying the release of dota2. During that period of time, all the potential players would most likely be moving to LoL, then at that time it would be harder to get them to play dota2 instead. Also, they would then be constrained by the limitations of the current Source1 engine.
With Option #4 however, by releasing the full game as promised, they have been able to build up an established playerbase. They then slowly work on their Source2 engine, which brings us to the present. Now, they have a great number of players, then they suddenly release an alpha map editor, which people eventually find out is being run on the new Souce2 engine. If you look at things from such a viewpoint, it should be fair to say that this wasn't a bad decision. Would you rather get your hands on a buggy, limited map editor which gets fixed ever so slowly, or would you rather wait a while longer and get your hands on a polished and fully fleshed out map editor? The bad editor would force you to spend hours on fiddly methods just to achieve a basic function. Eventually people would just get fed up with everything and leave. This is what happened with sc2. At release, the map editor had many limitations. Even though people made workarounds, the trouble wasn't really worth it.
You seem to have used the dota2 map editor a little and seem to be pleased with the scripting. What's your take on the current map editor? Does it have potential?
0
@Renee2islga: Go
I've been somewhat closely following the dota 2 mod support for a while so I can help you with some misunderstandings.
What they've released right now isn't just any mod support. They've released their Source 2 engine. This is an entirely new engine which they've been working on for years. That's why it took them so long to release official mod support. And they've converted dota2 to be used by this new engine. What this basically means is that there are a whole lot of possibilities right now. It really looks like a true successor for the W3 custom games scene.
Most games can't survive for more than 3 months? SC2 is still around, isn't it? Although the custom game community is pretty much dead (There're like 8 people viewing this forum right now). Dota has been around since w3 days. Team Fortress 2 has been out for 7 years and has 50k players playing it right now! (Taken from steam stats site. And it's a weekday. In the morning.) And right now Dota2 has 500k players. LoL claims to have more players. However, do they have such modding tools? You're talking as if LoL already has full fledged mod support out.
Hopefully now you'll understand why the map editor for dota2 came out now.
But overall, every map maker should be keeping an eye on this. If this works out as expected, then it might be time to jump ship. I really really yearn to be able to play custom games like I did back in the day.
PS: I haven't been in sc2 for almost 2 years. When I logged back in to look at the custom games.... well the front page was almost entirely the same. I'm just popping by sc2mapster after seeing the news about dota2 and decided to see the reactions from here.
0
Played Runecraft last night. I wanted to unlock something in the third row of terran (Forgot which), but it was on the right side and had Requires Hellion as the requirements. I already unlocked Hellions but they still didn't let me upgrade it. Maybe I just don't quite understand how the upgrade system works (Since later on I just went and upgraded everything in the Terran tree and everything unlocked one by one)
0
@Iamthecreeper: Go Sounded like a good idea at first but then again a vehicle would normally only get destroyed by the opponent team (It's easier to predict enemy AI and get away from them safely). So if there're things to salvage, most likely the opponents will get it anyway.
@acidragoon: Go Come to think about it, a 3rd team does sound reasonably good. Let's assume that the original 2 teams are 5v5. Then make the zerg team contain only 2-3 players. Then give the zerg players either limited control over the units or some sort of heroic unit as well (Doesn't need to have the same mechanics like items.) Think of it as giving the zerg players just some random fun whilst upping the difficulty and strategies for the two teams.
0
What's the point of controlling normal vehicles when you could choose an overly powerful one? Also, wouldn't it be guaranteed defeat if one of your titans died mid-end game? Because it'd be too late for them to catch up already and the opposing team would have a big advantage.
0
Well it's not really bad to think that your map is amazing, it keeps you motivated. But what would be wrong is to force your ideals on other people by saying that it truly is amazing.
@DogmaiSEA
And to quote yourself, you really shouldn't be spending so much time typing out long walls of texts about... what you just typed. It leaves a rather bad impression. We all know you wish to create a revolutionary map. We all know you wish to up the standards of the maps out there. We all know how impressive you think this map will be. We all know how proud you feel about this great map. We all know how calm and collected your posts are. We all know how you seem to praise people to make them feel good. We all know how long your posts can get.
So seriously, we get your message. The sooner this map is out the better. Also, try not to type a huge long reply to this post. Hope you'll keep up the work though (On the map, not the posts =P )
0
Further elaborating on the splash damage area :
When comparing the dps of a non-splash tower with a splash dmg tower, it'd be wise to make the dps of the splash dmg tower 1/4 - 1/3 the dmg of a nonsplash tower. If the damage is 1/3, then the splash dmg tower will only be more effective than the non-splash tower when it hits more than 3 units at once.
Is the said TD a mazing TD or one where the routes are already set? If it's a mazing TD, it'd be better to make upgrading the towers more worthwhile than a bunch of non-upgraded ones. Also, be careful with adding armor to the enemy units. Armor can easily make a game much harder than originally planned.
So with maths, the things that you need to balance are
-Raw damage (Every shot fired)
-Attack speed
-Splash
0
Looks cool. How easy is it to get more weapons? Because might be quite a disadvantage for those who got weak weapons at the beginning.
0
An entirely pink hero here I come.
0
I'd say that the signatures themselves are secure. The only insecure part is how we work around that signature, attacking it from a different, much easier direction.
0
@Mozared: Go Same thing happens with one of my friends. He wants to use ff but it keeps crashes for some odd reason. So now he's using chrome.
0
This. Do you really believe that increasing the price will help in profits? To me it seems that it'll only discourage more players from buying it. As Maknyuzz said before, micro-transactions are actually the way to go. Release map-packs and stuff at a more reasonable price then I'm sure much more people would buy them. Sorta like the elusive Sc2 marketplace.
0
@wOlfLisK: Go
I remember one time when someone's name was 'not guilty'. somehow he was voted to get lynched. At the trial he said 'i'm not guilty'. He was pardoned, we went on to lynch another guy who happened to be the last mafia and won the game. lulz