welcome to my newest tutorial! Well, this time i have to admit its not really a tutorial, but it should still be interesting for most of you since it adresses some myths floating around a long time and confusing the people.
The idea for this thread comes from my development of Starcraft Universe. I received some PMs critizing the fact that we use custom spellbars in SCU, which are 100% dialog based to make them more flexible. The people told me that it would increase the lag (or better: delay) when using a spell, since dialog items and triggers are slower as pure data. Additionally, there are some tutorials floating around on mapster how to create WASD systems that are data based to reduce delay (as they are saying) and to improve the game experience and other tutorials promoting complex data workarounds.
Since i never really believed all that stuff, i decided to test it out by myself. Personally i have never understood why dialog items or triggers in general should have a bigger delay than data. As far as i know, triggers check events 16 or even 32 times a second, so the MAXIMUM delay would be 1/16th of a second when triggering an event DIRECLY after the last check (or even 1/32th of a second in case they check that often), most of the time the delay would be even lower. Additionally, who says that data doesnt work the same way?
However, since i cant prove any of my theories or what ever i just build a map to test it out. Testing > Theory, so lets start.
Testing method
Since the test is supposed to show whether there is a difference of delay when using data compared to using triggers, the idea is simple:
- Create a spell spawning a unit
- Create a trigger spawning another unit
- Spell and Trigger use the same hotkey
If the spell unit spawns faster that would mean data is faster. If both units spawn to the same time, there is no difference in delay when using triggered hotkeys.
First of all, im not a data expert, so dont blame me here.
I created an effect of type "create unit", set the spawned unit and turned the birth animation off (to be able to compare it better), then i created a new ability and linked the spawn effect to it.
After that i just added a new command card button to the zealot and linked my new ability to it.
Results
First off the testing setup:
- Tested on EU and US bnet
- 12mbit download/1mbit upload
- Computer: AMD Phenom II 4x3600mhz, 6GB DDR2-800, HD6850
About my lag experience: I have played Quake III on a professional level for over 5 years and i have played World of Warcraft since the BETA. Im really very sensible when it comes to lag or delay.
To make it short: In the tests i could not find any difference when it comes to delay. Both units spawn to the exact same time. The pure data spell has exactly the same delay as the triggered spawn. Also keep in mind that my delay on US bnet is pretty high, since im from Germany. If there would be a big difference in executing the spells via triggers, the difference should have been even bigger because my ping was much higher.
Other tests
Right now we already know that hotkeys have the same delay, but whats about dialog items? Some people might use custom spellbars to execute their spells, so lets compare dialog buttons to command card buttons.
We use the same method (a spell and a trigger spawning specific units) to be able to see the delay most easy.
Sadly we cant press the dialog item and the command card button to the exact same time, so this test is more a subjective test!
Same delay. The command card button spell takes exactly as long to spawn the unit as the fully triggered dialog item spawn. I have pressed both buttons for like 5 minutes on EU and US bnet and couldnt find any difference in delay. For sure the test results are not as exact as the previous ones since we cant press both buttons to the same time, however i invite you all to try it out by yourself and to tell me if you can find any difference when testing. For me personally there is not the slightest difference between both methods, in addition it woulnt make sense that the hotkey delay is exactly the same but the dialog item delay is higher.
Conclusion
When it comes to delay (time between pressing the button/hotkey until execution) there is NO difference between all methods, or the difference is so small that its not noticable even for a very experienced player. Im NOT saying that triggering is the better way to go, it for sure depends on the map itself and what requirements you have for it, but when it comes to delay dialog items are exactly as fast as command card buttons or hotkeys. So please stop telling the people you have invented "lagless" methods for WASD systems or whatever, and stop PMing me! The battle.net delay is ALWAYS present!
Note: Data might still be the better way to ensure best overall performance in a game!
Final words
If you have any suggestions or criticism on my testing methods, feel free to post here. Also feel free to try it out by yourself and tell us your results!
What im personally interested in would be how the people came to the conclusion that the data delay is lower. Have you tested it? Maybe blizzard has changed smth with a patch? I dont know.
Please note i dont want to start a flamewar here and i dont want to sound arrogant in any way, im just interested in facts. (Since my post might sound like im pointing at some people or anything, thats NOT my intention!)
As far as I know, it makes a huge difference, if you test this in singleplayer or multiplayer (even when testing both in Bnet already).
Did you test this with multiple players already? I would like to see the results in this case, as I personally have the feeling, that dialog buttons indeed react noticeably slower than data-based buttons, as soon as you play with multiple players.
We could collect in this thread :D
I am usually in the mapster IRC channel; punch me and I will join you.
Also, would you mind including some other examples as well? Something like targeted spells, data and triggered aoe markers following your cursor, maybe WASD controls... stuff like that?
Also, would you mind including some other examples as well? Something like targeted spells, data and triggered aoe markers following your cursor, maybe WASD controls... stuff like that?
Actually for me its just about the myth that the delay of detecting events through data is lower than the delay when using triggers, and thats exactly what this is testing. I want to keep the map simple. If you take the WASD system for example, the data WASD system is based on the "fact" that detecting a key press takes longer via triggers, whats wrong when believing my results.
PS: Take a look at your PMs.
Edit: Tested with 4 people in the game (we couldnt find more) and for me there was no difference between data and triggers. For me personally its a myth.
It needs to be done in bigger scale. Complex spells, Several buttons/dialog buttons. Simultaneous use? Im sure there are lots of things you could test out...
but I guess this was just something to test out WASD?...then I dont really even care, but dont make misleading topics (didnt read everything)
Coulnt find enough people, yet. Problem is that im mostly online on US bnet, but at crazy times (cause of the different timezone) so nobody from my friendlist is online, and on EU i dont have much friends since its not really my main account.
However id like to point out that i dont believe that we will have different results, since testing with 4 players showed zero difference. I dont think that suddenly with 8 players we get totally different results (it wouldnt make sense at all).
EDIT: I decided my first post was too harsh, so I deleted it. In short, be nicer. It is that easy.
As for my "logic", you first basically stated that this thread is stupid, and invalid. You then stated what he should have done instead. Then you proceded to imply that he is stupid for not thinking of your "genius" suggestions. Then you said something about WASD, which is mentioned once and NOT the focus of this at all. Then you admitted you didn't even read the whole thing, but still managed to complain. Oh, and you said you didn't care. All in a nasty, negative attitude.
From my understanding, this test has nothing to do with the performance of data spells vs triggered spells on a bigger scale. It adresses another issue:
There is a general belief, that spells or in general any effects caused by a trigger (for example spells casted via dialog buttons or with the KeyPressed event) suffer from an additional delay time compared to pure data spells, casted directly by a command card button. I believed this myself.
From what I can tell, Mille has proven this additional delay to be at least insignificant (less than the UI update rate), maybe even non-existant. Both data and triggered spells still suffer from the standard battlenet delay, though. The test looks reasonable for me; there was no difference from singleplayer to a 4 player test; all of them showed the same results.
He does not believe, that this would change in a larger scale, and I agree. In a larger scale test, trigger spells might still perform worse than data spells. But this should not have any influence on he start delay at all.
He did never say, that data does not offer better performance (this is specifically mentioned in the first post).
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Hey guys,
welcome to my newest tutorial! Well, this time i have to admit its not really a tutorial, but it should still be interesting for most of you since it adresses some myths floating around a long time and confusing the people.
The idea for this thread comes from my development of Starcraft Universe. I received some PMs critizing the fact that we use custom spellbars in SCU, which are 100% dialog based to make them more flexible. The people told me that it would increase the lag (or better: delay) when using a spell, since dialog items and triggers are slower as pure data. Additionally, there are some tutorials floating around on mapster how to create WASD systems that are data based to reduce delay (as they are saying) and to improve the game experience and other tutorials promoting complex data workarounds.
Since i never really believed all that stuff, i decided to test it out by myself. Personally i have never understood why dialog items or triggers in general should have a bigger delay than data. As far as i know, triggers check events 16 or even 32 times a second, so the MAXIMUM delay would be 1/16th of a second when triggering an event DIRECLY after the last check (or even 1/32th of a second in case they check that often), most of the time the delay would be even lower. Additionally, who says that data doesnt work the same way?
However, since i cant prove any of my theories or what ever i just build a map to test it out. Testing > Theory, so lets start.
Testing method
Since the test is supposed to show whether there is a difference of delay when using data compared to using triggers, the idea is simple:
- Create a spell spawning a unit
- Create a trigger spawning another unit
- Spell and Trigger use the same hotkey
If the spell unit spawns faster that would mean data is faster. If both units spawn to the same time, there is no difference in delay when using triggered hotkeys.
Trigger setup
Data setup
First of all, im not a data expert, so dont blame me here.
I created an effect of type "create unit", set the spawned unit and turned the birth animation off (to be able to compare it better), then i created a new ability and linked the spawn effect to it.
After that i just added a new command card button to the zealot and linked my new ability to it.
Results
First off the testing setup:
- Tested on EU and US bnet
- 12mbit download/1mbit upload
- Computer: AMD Phenom II 4x3600mhz, 6GB DDR2-800, HD6850
About my lag experience: I have played Quake III on a professional level for over 5 years and i have played World of Warcraft since the BETA. Im really very sensible when it comes to lag or delay.
To make it short: In the tests i could not find any difference when it comes to delay. Both units spawn to the exact same time. The pure data spell has exactly the same delay as the triggered spawn. Also keep in mind that my delay on US bnet is pretty high, since im from Germany. If there would be a big difference in executing the spells via triggers, the difference should have been even bigger because my ping was much higher.
Other tests
Right now we already know that hotkeys have the same delay, but whats about dialog items? Some people might use custom spellbars to execute their spells, so lets compare dialog buttons to command card buttons.
We use the same method (a spell and a trigger spawning specific units) to be able to see the delay most easy.
Sadly we cant press the dialog item and the command card button to the exact same time, so this test is more a subjective test!
Results 2
Same delay. The command card button spell takes exactly as long to spawn the unit as the fully triggered dialog item spawn. I have pressed both buttons for like 5 minutes on EU and US bnet and couldnt find any difference in delay. For sure the test results are not as exact as the previous ones since we cant press both buttons to the same time, however i invite you all to try it out by yourself and to tell me if you can find any difference when testing. For me personally there is not the slightest difference between both methods, in addition it woulnt make sense that the hotkey delay is exactly the same but the dialog item delay is higher.
Conclusion
When it comes to delay (time between pressing the button/hotkey until execution) there is NO difference between all methods, or the difference is so small that its not noticable even for a very experienced player. Im NOT saying that triggering is the better way to go, it for sure depends on the map itself and what requirements you have for it, but when it comes to delay dialog items are exactly as fast as command card buttons or hotkeys. So please stop telling the people you have invented "lagless" methods for WASD systems or whatever, and stop PMing me! The battle.net delay is ALWAYS present!
Note: Data might still be the better way to ensure best overall performance in a game!
Final words
If you have any suggestions or criticism on my testing methods, feel free to post here. Also feel free to try it out by yourself and tell us your results!
What im personally interested in would be how the people came to the conclusion that the data delay is lower. Have you tested it? Maybe blizzard has changed smth with a patch? I dont know.
Please note i dont want to start a flamewar here and i dont want to sound arrogant in any way, im just interested in facts. (Since my post might sound like im pointing at some people or anything, thats NOT my intention!)
As far as I know, it makes a huge difference, if you test this in singleplayer or multiplayer (even when testing both in Bnet already).
Did you test this with multiple players already? I would like to see the results in this case, as I personally have the feeling, that dialog buttons indeed react noticeably slower than data-based buttons, as soon as you play with multiple players.
@Kueken531: Go
Thanks for your reply!
Just tested with 3 people, no difference regarding the results. Ill try to get more people later.
Can you get some friends on EU maybe?
Maybe, depends on the time ;)
We could collect in this thread :D
I am usually in the mapster IRC channel; punch me and I will join you.
Also, would you mind including some other examples as well? Something like targeted spells, data and triggered aoe markers following your cursor, maybe WASD controls... stuff like that?
Actually for me its just about the myth that the delay of detecting events through data is lower than the delay when using triggers, and thats exactly what this is testing. I want to keep the map simple. If you take the WASD system for example, the data WASD system is based on the "fact" that detecting a key press takes longer via triggers, whats wrong when believing my results.
PS: Take a look at your PMs.
Edit: Tested with 4 people in the game (we couldnt find more) and for me there was no difference between data and triggers. For me personally its a myth.
Updated testing methods.
Ill try to get some more people today for the final test.
AND what is the result of last test with 8+ players???? we all want to know!!!!
This test proves nothing?
It needs to be done in bigger scale. Complex spells, Several buttons/dialog buttons. Simultaneous use? Im sure there are lots of things you could test out...
but I guess this was just something to test out WASD?...then I dont really even care, but dont make misleading topics (didnt read everything)
@zenx1: Go
I don't think so. He just did some tests, why do you have to be so angry :(
Great to be back and part of the community again!
angry? right...making a comment = angry....nice logic
@zenx1: Go
Seems like you havent understood what this thread is about.
@Dzuke911: Go
Coulnt find enough people, yet. Problem is that im mostly online on US bnet, but at crazy times (cause of the different timezone) so nobody from my friendlist is online, and on EU i dont have much friends since its not really my main account.
However id like to point out that i dont believe that we will have different results, since testing with 4 players showed zero difference. I dont think that suddenly with 8 players we get totally different results (it wouldnt make sense at all).
@zenx1: Go
EDIT: I decided my first post was too harsh, so I deleted it. In short, be nicer. It is that easy.
As for my "logic", you first basically stated that this thread is stupid, and invalid. You then stated what he should have done instead. Then you proceded to imply that he is stupid for not thinking of your "genius" suggestions. Then you said something about WASD, which is mentioned once and NOT the focus of this at all. Then you admitted you didn't even read the whole thing, but still managed to complain. Oh, and you said you didn't care. All in a nasty, negative attitude.
Then you sarcastically tell me "nice logic".
So, I will ask you again, why so angry?
Great to be back and part of the community again!
I think it shouldnt be a problem to have a test at the EU Map Night. Just PM TheAlmaity about it.
From my understanding, this test has nothing to do with the performance of data spells vs triggered spells on a bigger scale. It adresses another issue:
There is a general belief, that spells or in general any effects caused by a trigger (for example spells casted via dialog buttons or with the KeyPressed event) suffer from an additional delay time compared to pure data spells, casted directly by a command card button. I believed this myself.
From what I can tell, Mille has proven this additional delay to be at least insignificant (less than the UI update rate), maybe even non-existant. Both data and triggered spells still suffer from the standard battlenet delay, though. The test looks reasonable for me; there was no difference from singleplayer to a 4 player test; all of them showed the same results.
He does not believe, that this would change in a larger scale, and I agree. In a larger scale test, trigger spells might still perform worse than data spells. But this should not have any influence on he start delay at all.
He did never say, that data does not offer better performance (this is specifically mentioned in the first post).