Compendium On Map Creation And Design - Project Workplace - Resources - SC2 Mapster Forums

#1 Aug 25, 2010

_ForgeUser4548413

Join Date: 6/13/2010
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Compendium On Map Creation And Design

1.What is design?

2.Steps to map creation

3.Recipe for good design

4.Solo or team development?

5.Additonal resources

6.Final words

Intro The aforementioned document was written and is based on my own personal understanding and experience. Do not see it as law but rather a guide. I hope it helps any aspiring map-maker in someway. You are welcome to add your own advice, experiences, resources, tips, or anything related to the matter.

This thread is meant to be a focal resource for people wanting to add general advice, encouragement and knowledge erratum when it comes to creating maps.

1|| What is Design? In regard to gaming. "Design" is a process. A method of trial and error to settle on a working forumla. It requires a good insight into what would make a fun game for the intended audience. Note, making a game fun for yourself or your game giving you the impression that it is fun, does not equate to it being fun for other people. As a designer, It is imperative to be critical of your own work. Doing so will lead to several iterations/revisions unto your final product. At the end it will be as good as can possibly be. 2|| Steps to map creation

-Idea

-Research

-Implementation

[Sub section: Idea] Everything begins with an "idea". So too does a map. There are basically two ideas when it comes to design, that being "new" and "old". You can decide weather you want to work on a past idea done in other games, and maybe refine/improve it or come up with a completely new idea and take it from there. The choice is yours. You then need to get a good understanding and clear picture of where it fits in. For example, In which category would you classify your idea? 1V World(Solo, Campaign type, etc) 1v1 2v2 3v3 4v4 FFA (I.E A vs B vs C, A vs B vs C vs D,etc) FFA teams (I.E AB vs CD vs EF, ABC vs DEF, etc) 1vMany 2vMany 3vMany 4vMany [Sub section: Research] Research is the next big step. Failing to follow this through or ignoring it can be risky. Essentially you need to research the following:

-Is my idea viable?. Will it work given the technology and tools Im using?.

This is to say that you should develop your map within the allocated boundries of the given system. An example would be many of the multiplayer FPS maps designed. At the time, map makers thought it would be a pretty cool idea and assumed it would be popular amongst players. However, It was later shown that input lag and frame rate drops on most FPS maps, made this genre near impossible to play or be enjoyed by most players. Given, Work arounds and optimizations are somewhat possible but a good majority of FPS maps turned out fail, and much hard work and time was lost. Thus knowing the limitations of what the system can or cannot do, or how far it can be pushed, is significant knowledge prior to developing a map.

-How many people should I expect to play/like my map?

If you are designing a map solely for your own use or that of close friends only. This section is of no consequence to you. So, many people create maps, good or bad, big or small and then wonder "Wait..Why are so few people playing it?" or "My map used to be popular but now its slowly fading away.." Why are certain maps played by fewer people and other maps seemingly enjoyed by scores more?. This is something actually quite simple but often overseen. In terms of map design, Ive compiled a basic formula to demonstrate this: X = (G + I) * P Where X is Map popularity G is Genre I is Ideas P is Polish Its really as simple as that. 1.So as you can see a maps popularity or fanbase is directly proportional to the genre. Meaning niche maps such as Rpg`s or Fps or others will usually always have a smaller audience than say a team game map or a tower defence map. 2.That said audience however will further fluctuate in size depending on the ideas presented in your map. Weather new/old or improved mechanics.The better or more fun those ideas are, a greater audience will play and enjoy it. Vice versa in that fewer people will enjoy it if its boring or too deep/complicated etc. In essence your ideas presented could end up making a good and popular rpg or a bad and less popular rpg. 3.Polish or presentation is a scaling factor in your maps popularity. If you are familiar with Dota(like it or hate it) , Its a good example of this ideology. When it first started out it was very much similar to other AoS hero style maps. However, Its fanbase grew with each revision and improvement made. In such a process, a map will develop a "hardcore" early following of fans. Suffice to say, Dota became what it is today because of the numerous improvements and tweaking over the years to its formula and mechanics, and the addition of more content. Its not easy but depending on the type of map you are doing, keeping at this will eventually make your map perfect. [Sub section: Implementation] This is most important. You need to work out a realistic time frame on when you WANT your map to be done. Otherwise you`ll be going into this blindly, and depending on the scale of your project and the circumstances of real life, You may have to abort development on your map. Thus wasting many precious spent hours. So give yourself a time frame. Say "I expect my map to be completed in X days/weeks/months" and then work at it. Set aside some time during each day or on weekends, working on certain aspects of your map. Its always best to work on the hardest aspects first. Leave polish for last. Get the main mechanics working first. So lets say you are doing an Rpg game. First begin work on your inventory mechanics, Leveling system, Save/Load feature etc. What you basically want to do first is to develop an "Alpha build" of your map. Which in essence is the core functions/mechanics and features working, minus the polish/pretty effects/etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Alpha Finally, when all the hard parts are done, proceed to work on terrain design and things like map layout, What type of quests there will be, dialogs etc. You want your map to be presentable. First impressions can also be lasting impressions, So spend a good amount of time after development to polish it.. 3|| Recipe for good map design I like to think that map-making is similar to baking. What you put in, is what you get out. Now, like baking, there are a few key ingredients that are essential to your map.

-Simplicity

-Atmosphere

-Depth

Think of it like flour, water, baking powder. All important but you can get mixed results depending on the quantity of each. The more simple or accessible a game is, the more fun it usually is. A greater amount of people will play and enjoy it. Atmosphere contributes to the "experience". Making your game believable and giving it the right tone in terms of music, sounds and scenery(terrain design) is a great way of grabbing attention and providing an immersive experience. Depth is tied to many things. Including but not limited to "replayability". Depending on your map type, Adding some depth or a learning curve can be a great thing. People like challenges or progressively getting better at something. Depth may also seperate the skilled from the unskilled. A way of archievement for the skilled player, and a goal to acquire for the unskilled. 4|| Solo or team development In the days of Warcraft 2 and Starcraft 1 map editing, this would probably have never been a question on anyones mind. However, as technology develops, Mod/editing tools follow suite and generally become more complicated The Galaxy editor is a bit complicated and time consuming to say the very least. Making simple spells or abilites or units can take quite some time depending(assuming you know what to do). Doing a big project which involves many custom units/abilities/spells or complex game mechanics, or multi-faceted gameplay, would take far too long to archieve if done solo. It is for this reason that it may be best to consider joining a team or leading a team yourself. If you plan on joining a team: -Ensure the leader is a capable one and that communication will not be a barrier in anyway. Feel comfortable about it. -Believe in the project and show enthusiasm. If its not to your liking or your gut tells you that it will fail, Best to leave early. -Be a team player. If you plan on joining a team, make sure you will get your allocated work done as best you can and as soon as possible. Otherwise you will only build bad reputation on yourself. -Remember, you will be working toward the greater group glory. You may not like some aspects of the project or you may think that some of your ideas would be better. You can convey those feelings to the leader but weather it is accepted or not should be of little concern to you. At some point you must learn to trust the leader`s judgement and believe that he is taking the project in the right direction. Being a good follower will one day make you an even better leader. If you plan on leading a team: -Do a project thats within your scope of knowledge and experience. Dont attempt something grand or too ambitious if you are inexperienced. Doing so will make you fail badly and humiliate you in front of your team, wasting everyone`s time in the process too. -Divide sections of work to each member. Allocate tasks accordingly to each member`s strength and expertise. -Take the position seriously. Being a leader in anything is important and serious. Its not a joke or position for laughs. Focus, be proffesional and lead by example. -Lead effectively. Be open to ideas from team members. Encourage and praise any effort they make. Critisize bad work in a good constructive manner. Be patient and understanding with team members that may seem slacking, Sometimes "life happens" and delays/setbacks will occur. Credit them well in the end, for without them, your project would have been nothing. A general outline of the pros and cons of teams Pros-

1.More resources and able to complete larger scale projects

2.More solutions (Diversity)

3.Better ability to detect flaws

4.Greater understanding of what needs to be done

5.Sometimes members become good friends

Cons.

1. One member down, progress is halted.

2. Difference in interest

3. Too many opinions to consider and everybody promotes their own

4. Motivation is there but depends largely on the leader

5|| Additional resources Some excellent reading material that could undoubtedly be of value to you. Intro to Game Design and practice: http://www.gamedev.net/reference/design/features/rouse1/ Depth and mechanics http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/5901/evaluating_game_mechanics_for_depth.php?print=1 Basic Game theory in Mulitplayer level design: http://www.brighthub.com/video-games/pc/articles/60255.aspx Basic analysis on what makes games fun: http://lsvp.wordpress.com/2008/01/07/what-makes-games-fun/ 6|| Final Words Last but certainly not least, Have fun!. Enjoy editing/creating your worlds and let your imagination run wild. Whatever you decide to make, do it as best you can. As half-jobs or lackluster maps are really just a waste of time. If at anytime you become bored with the project/map you are doing. Instead of abandoning it, attempt to rather change your direction in design. Change things, add different features, experiment with new ideas. Always keep your work fresh and alive. Feedback is important. Get a few close friends or people you trust to critique your work prior to releasing it. If you are new to map-making, You will probably fail at first, Several times perhaps. Its part of the process though, and dont be too hard on yourself. If you allow yourself the opportunity to learn and get better from it, you will no doubt create some amazing maps in the future.

Dont ever give up on something you want to do.

Last edited by _ForgeUser4548413: Sep 25, 2010

#2 Aug 26, 2010

_ForgeUser4548413

Join Date: 6/13/2010
Posts: 1,687
Member Details

Interviews

This section is intended to the highlight the importance of feedback. It is important to get a general idea of what is acceptable and what is not. What players want/expect/like/dislike. All this falls under feedback and will aid in decision making during map design. This is a work in progress and more people will be added to the list, including additional questions

The people interviewed: ::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Sixen Bibendus b0ne123 Malu05 s3rius Mozared Bifuu progammer Karawasa Alcoholix ::::::::::::::::::::::::::: They are a mix of moderators, and map-makers whom have at some point created popular maps and have a general good insight into design. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Which custom maps do you find yourself playing these days and why?. What do you like about them?--- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sixen : Personally, I played some Nexus Wars and SotIS... Just because they're on the first page of the Popularity system really. Yes, it's flawed, :P. Bibendus : I don't really have time to play custom map on these days, however I'm following mapster and I have some preferences. I like original maps like "Haunted Temple", "Doodad Hunt" or this new map called "Barracks of the Dead" inspired to Video Arcade shooter games. Another fun map is Partycraft, inspired to the old Uther Party wc3 map that includes a bunch of minigames with high replayability. b0ne123 : When I've got some spare time, I'm playing my own map most of the time because I have to test it and I like it. It is pretty well balanced and there are a lot of ways to win in the current versions. It's a good feeling to play your own map with random people from all over the world and to hear what they are saying about it. Malu05 : I have to take my hat off and admit that i don't play Starcraft2 at this time. Mainly due to the broken custom game system, i would love to try out brand new maps, but: A: They are hard to find B: The system is made so that it is nearly impossible to find others to play with when talking unranked maps I have acturally not played more than 10 custom games (on battle.net) since release. s3rius : Rarely any. There are few good custom maps out there. I found myself playing a little bit of Nexus War and some survival games, because they are known from Warcraft 3 or SC1 and already well developed. Mozared : Currently, mostly HotAT and THE card game. Mostly because there aren't a lot of good maps around yet. That's not to say it's all bad, but income wars, battlecraft, nexus wars and marine arena are all basically the same concept in a new jacket - and it's a concept that bores me. I'd like me some games of 'find the murderer' and similar styles maps, but very few of those currently exist. Bifuu : I actually haven't played any custom maps yet by other users, because of recent time constraints a lot of my activity has slowed, but coming next month ill have a lot more free time and availably so custom maps will be played! progammer : Honestly I havent played much because of many time restraint, developing map myself and also because most of the map is not at its polished state right now. Some of the playable and polished map right now are the one showcased here on mapster. Check out DarkRevenentX's reviews for some of them. Karawasa : I am currently not playing any custom maps. I sample other TDs to get a feel for the market and also to scope out ideas. That being said, there hasn't been anything yet that I've seen which would really capture my attention. Given, it is rather early in the life of SC2. Alcoholix : I think I played 3 custom maps since sc2 launched ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 2. What would you say are some of the elements that make a good and fun map?--- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sixen : A big part of a fun map is the ability to play through it once and be amazed... But then the rest of it is replayability. Maps that are just good when played once are not good maps. This is why DotA got as big as it has. Bibendus : The most important elements of a game are the amount of possible customizations and replayability. A game is fun when you can choose different strategies to achieve the victory and you can replay it making different choices. Look at the SC2 campaign, isn't that funnier then WC3 now that you can upgrade units and buildings? Another important element is the graphical aspect of the game. A good terraining and different ambients are more appealing that a single room with a low quality terrain. Last but not least the game must be easy to understand, the majority of players leave a game after 1 minute if they don't understand how to play it. b0ne123 : Balance and challenge. A nice looking map and a bunch of new units are fun two but they can't make up for imbalance and a to easy or to hard map. Balance is important in nearly every kind of maps. If one unit or tower or spell is enough to win the game players are not going to play it a lot of times. Malu05 : I think that all depends on what gametype/mode we are talking about. Some maps are good when they are repetetive some must be evolving. But the single most importaint thing is gameplay. A map developer can spend weeks on making some great terrain but if the gameplay is not fun noone is going to play it anyway. Rather a flat empty map with good gameplay then a heaven with rainbows that suck. s3rius : Easy understandable gameplay. Not much to say about it. However, at the moment people tend to neglect eye candy. For a map to be great everything needs to fit together. Adding sounds, special effects and other nuances is what makes the difference between a good map and a great map. Mozared : Balance, looks, pacing and lore. Maps are in every circumstance better if one of these points are improved, and it's really hard to do any of these elements completely wrong if you just pay some attention to them. Lore and looks might argueably be the most important ones in the list - any map that has some kind of background and interesting terrain will immediatly draw somebody's attention. Bifuu : Well that depends on the map, but generally game play, which is also based on the map haha. an RPG Map should have an engaging storing line, while an action game should have awesome controls. progammer : Mainly gamplay make the map/game fun. Just like what blizzard has done to their campaign. The core game is no different but the catch/rush/defense/upgrade mechanics made it fun. A little bit polished on the art department wouldnt hurt either, but that's not my concern. Karawasa : This can perhaps be summed up by the "easy to learn but hard to master" concept. A good map should be accessible to new players, but should also not be lacking in depth. There must be a reason to come back. I also can't stress polish enough. The right models/icons/effects, proper tooltips without spelling mistakes, quality terrain that fits the game etc. all add up to deliver an experience. Alcoholix : A good fun map is a map that has it's objectives and controls clear from the start. And this doesn't mean a loading screen full of instructions on how to play. It actually needs to be intuitive or made clear in some easy to digest way during gameplay. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 3. What is your favorite and least favorite map type/genre?-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sixen : My favorite type of Map would have to be by far, Bounds! I've loved playing Bound maps ever since I was introduced to them in SC1. I don't really have a least favorite map type, it just depends on my mood really. Bibendus : I don't have a favorite map genre, as I said it all depends from the originality and fun of the single map. I can say that usually tower/hero defensens and escape games are the most banal and unfun for me. b0ne123 : I like all kind of Wars, Madness and Survival maps. I suck at minigames, my Lost Viking highscore is around 4000. Malu05 : I love defence games. They are easy to pick up and the repetitive nature of the gametype removes the sense of "lost progression" every time you start a new game. The mods i hate the most is thoes deep story RPG/Adventure maps, simply because i don't feel like i want to dive in deep to a story if a map is shitty, and sadly there is a 9/10 chance that you will end up in a shitty map. I by no means have anything against RPG or adventure maps, its just when you play too many bad games of the genre you don't feel like you want to try a new one. s3rius : I hate escape-style maps, because I'm bad with them .~ Most of the time I've only played survival games, and I still love them Mozared : Least favourite would easily be the legion of hero survival maps right now. Even if you get one of these that doesn't screw up terrain, balance and lore, the whole concept just bores me. If it's at least an RPG where you have to move around and do quests, it gets better, but just shooting endless waves of enemies with one single unit is horrible. As for my favourite map... anything co-op that has a good background, really. I played a map not too long ago, outpost TX-47 or something if I recall the name correctly; it wasn't a completely new concept (defending a base with 4 players - one builds turrets, one heals, the other trains marines) but just because the background and in-game cinematics were good, it was very enjoyable to play. Bifuu : My favorite would have to be most Co-op Competitive games and my least favorite are the ones that Troll me (ie. Burrow the Siege tank in sc1, 20 hours wasted!) progammer : Should have stated no offense at the start of the interview rather than here but the least favorite of mine is TD or defense map. Sure they brings strategic value and a lot of playability but consider the amount of sitting watching mobs run around suicide in circle to the ratio of fun getting out of the map, its not worth it. Many defense map added another level of control for heroes, more tower manual control or more dynamic creep manipulation has succeeded (at least to me). With this new engine, another function to speed up game speed could help them less boring. And my favorite genre is the Hero Arena and AOS map. They brings a lot of fun in just as few as a 20min match that satisfy both side Karawasa : My favorite genre is, of course, Tower Defense. My least favorite is RPG. I just don't have the patience to work through them, with exception to very high quality ones. Alcoholix : I keep hearing about these things called DotA and TD, constantly, actually so much that I fear of ever accidentally playing one. My favorite map atm, I have to choose between one of the 3 I played... Corpses by Bibendus ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 4. In terms of the standard genres out there like tower defences, Rpg maps, Fps maps and such.How important do- you think it is for map developers to stick to tried and tested concepts?. - AoS was a map concept created during the days of Starcraft 1. It eventually led to the birth of the very popular - spin-off concept "Dota" - Do you believe re-inventing or developing new and original map concepts is something map makers should consider more often or rather just stick with tried and tested ideas? - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sixen : There's always room for discovery... That's about all I can say in that regard. Sure, keeping it safe and using concepts everyone knows may get your map noticed, but standing out and being unique... taking that leap could be huge. Bibendus : Absolutely yes, new concepts make games more fun. Playing now a tower defense is like playing a SC1 tower defense, you can have different towers and upgrades but the gameplay is always the same. BOOOORING... I think that the AOS genre should die because there are already standalone games that offer better playability then a SC2 mod (League of Legends and Heroes of Newerth, the first is free too. They support player reconnections and a better lag control, why should someone play a mod for this?). Unfortunately AOS maps won't die because there are many DOTA fans around that would continue to play that kind of maps. I hope this won't ruin the custom games community as DOTA did (99.9999% custom games were DOTA in WC3). Personally I'm looking towards original gameplay styles inspiring myself to unique games or old unused game concepts as I did with Corpses (Inspired to CoD Nazi Zombies) and Crush Company (Inspired to old beat'em up arcade games). b0ne123 : They should try something new but there are some things working against it and preferring known genres. If you are new to map making you should start with picking a map you like and try to improve one or two things, maybe add a new unit or new boss. Maybe just change the layout of the map. If you know how it all works then your fine to start something new, but I guess a lot of people don't like to because a map with TD in it gets popularity for free. Players tend to play what they know and it it hard work to get them to play a new map. You see this every popularity reset, the old, well known maps are back on top after 5 minutes. Malu05 : I think if you want your map to stand out from the crowd you have to do something original. Every game comes from inspiration of some sort. It does'nt nessesarily have to be just games, it can be a movie, a music track, a painting, a experience of some sort. When i sit down to create a map i usually go into the project because of something i have just been doing (watching a movie or found some new music), its often more than 1 inspiration source. My initiall ideas are brances off that inspiration. For a long period of the game development process im focused on my own ideas. And once thoes ideas have been taken into consideration i go pick on inspiration from other games, that can be everything from gameplay mechanics to how the camera should handle etc, so that i don't have to reinvent the spoon if someone else allready made a good working recipe but still leave most of the room for my own ideas. s3rius : Mappers who try to create something great should never just stick with an old concept. No one needs another DotA clone. But there's nothing wrong using an old concept as a foundation - you just need to develop the idea and make something more perfect out of it. I see that alot with other games, at the moment. Look at Bioshock or Crisis 1. These games were great, they sucked me in and stole dozens of hours of my time. Both games got (or will soon get) a sequel now. Both sequels aren't bad, in fact they're both a bit better than the originals - but only a bit. They've evolved so little that they just don't feel like a great game in comparison to the original. Mozared : I believe neither, I think people should make what they feel like making. DOTA-style maps can be really interesting and fun to play if one puts in enough energy and gets the balance/creative aspects right. HotAT would be a prime example there. It's not going to be the best map ever made, but it's a lot of fun and definitely worth playing. Bifuu : People should always try to develop ideas further, if they didn't no progress would be made and we would still be playing pong competitively. progammer : Sure like I stated above with blizzard's campaign, just the gameplay will determine success. Rip-off is not important as long as it can produce fun Karawasa : The answer to this question really depends on experience and ability. I believe that creating a new map concept is no trivial matter. If not done right, then it's both a waste of time and a loss of a new genre. It should not be attempted by most developers. There is something to be said about tried and true ideas. The "if it ain't broke then don't fix it" concept comes to mind. At the same time, if it wasn't for certain pioneers then the established genres would not be nearly as interesting as they are today. My advice would be to recognize the difficulty and risk involved with being a pioneer, and determine for yourself whether you are capable. Alcoholix : We need more innovation, more concepts, people need to dare to experiment. Out with the old, in with the new. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5. How many minutes on average are you willing to spend time playing a custom map?-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sixen : The amount of time I am willing to spend on a map all depends. If the map is amazing, i'll spend as much time as it requires. I've played games of DotA that have last over an hour before. There are also great RPG's that allow you to save and load games, which is awesome. Play for an hour or two today, continue tomorrow.. Bibendus : I will spend more time making maps instead of playing them. For now I didn't find any map that I would like to play instead of playing other games, we'll see in future. b0ne123 : A half hour is a good time for the most maps. If it takes longer it has to be damn good to keep the people playing. Malu05 : Almost unlimited. Unless the map is boring i could play forever. Thoes few Starcraft 2 mods i have played have been played for hours s3rius : If it's well-made and entertaining I could easily spend 2-3 hours playing a single match. Mozared : That really depends on how much fun it is. I've spent several hours on HotAT already, but a grand total of 5 minutes on Nexus Wars. On average though, I reckon I can sit through at most 20 minutes of boring gameplay before I give up and assume it's never going to be fun. Bifuu : As long as it takes! if theres a goal to be accomplished ill stick it out! (See previous mention about burrowing a siege tank >.<) progammer : Really depends on the maps. And I'm a completionist *cough*achievement*cough* so if the map demand at least 10h to master the basic, I would go for it Karawasa : I do not like games that last for more than an hour. They tie up too much of your time at once. It is for this reason that I implemented Short Mode and Extra Short Mode in Element TD. If possible in your map, then I would advise taking similar steps. Alcoholix : Depends on if I like the map. I've played Corpses for a few full games. The other 2 maps I tried I gave up on very quick because they were either too complicated or just not fun. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6. With the complexity and time cosuming nature of the Galaxy Editor. Do you think team work is more important - now in hopes of creating a good map? or can we still expect cool stuff from people going solo? - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sixen : I do believe teamwork will be really important in creating quality and premium Maps for SC2, but I do still expect to see people going solo. Some people just work better alone. Bibendus : For now the editor doesn't allow a good teamwork because each user of a team can work only on separate aspects of the game. You can split the work on Terraining, Data Editing and Triggering, unfortunately triggering is the more time consuming part and it's really annoying to do it in more then 1 person due to code merging problems. b0ne123 : We can expect good stuff from solo map makers but it takes time. A lot of time. If you find someone to help you, you should take his help and split the work up. Big maps using all the possibilities of the editor are most likely never finished if the map maker stays alone. Malu05 : No, i don't think teaming up is more importaint than it was in the Warcraft 3 era. The thing is the editor requires a bit more overall knowledge. If you really want to dig in deep its importaint to understand the Dataeditor, Trigger Editor and Terrain. Once you have a basic understanding of thoes 3 the complexity can be solved at sites like sc2mapster.com, you might come up with some questions but its not like its going to take much longer to make a map when you are on your own. And with a size limit of 10mb per map there is not that much you can include in terms of resources suchs as new models, sounds and grapichs so that part is also not going to be more demanding than what we saw from Warcraft 3. All in all i think that teaming up is great, but not preferable over going solo. s3rius : In a couple of years there will be people knowing almost everything about every aspect of the editor. These guys could easily work for themselves and create great things. At the moment our knowledge is so limited that teamwork is defitely a great help. Mozared : We can, definitely, there are homo universalis types out there who can do it all and given enough time, they put out the most amazing work. That said, team work will definitely become more important, as each profession has been deepened to a large extend now. Most people (like me) specialize in one area of mapping expertise, and you generally want to form a team with those people to ensure the best of succes in every sector. Bifuu : Not to sure, Ive tried solo and team based developing in sc2 already and it really depends. There are a lot of great solo developers out there and there are a lot of really great Teams. we just have to wait and see progammer : Solo is certainly possible. I haven't really joined any big project since I started sc2 but with the complexity of the data editor, I would recommend any new mapmaker to concentrate on 1 skills and learn as a team Karawasa : I used to be the solo guy who wanted to do everything himself. I came to the realization though that a team is far more optimal. No one, and I mean no one, excels at everything. The team allows you to focus on the aspect(s) that you do best. We will surely see maps from solo people with infinite time that are good. But that's not the point. Rather, ask how much better those maps could have been if they used a team to cover for their weaknesses. Alcoholix :Yea, I believe in teamwork. The editor has so many different aspects, and each require someone specialised in those aspects. Some people just excell in terraining, while others prefer working on the User Interface or figuring out complicated trriggers. This doesn't mean that solo projects are not possible, but they will take a lot longer too develop, or might lack some polish. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7. What do you think are some of the common mistakes many map-makers are doing right now?-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sixen : No comment. Bibendus : The most of the map making community is focusing on old concepts or remakes and is not looking toward new original works. This is the biggest problem for me. b0ne123 : People are releasing their maps to early and unfinished or imbalanced and some maps lack any explanation. I've played a map where I got a Command center and 6 SCVs. After 5 minutes suddenly 2 enemies appeared and killed me. I'm never going to play this map again. The first minute is probably the most important one for a new map. People should be aware of it and test their maps private before they complain that nobody is willing to play their map. Malu05 : As mentioned in the first question i don't really play so i can't answer that question fully. But what i do miss is some people that take more risks and try to come up with brand new concepts. I see too many maps that could easily have been made in the warcraft 3 editor, and many of them are infact just clones or reiterations of popular warcraft 3 maps. The editor have much more to offer and there is far between maps that stand out from what we come to expect from what the old warcraft 3 editor could offer. s3rius : Yanking out unfinished maps, I think. Right now the custom game list is flooded with semi-finished and bugged maps. Get a couple of friends, work on your map, release it when it's playable. Mozared : For me, as a terrainer, I'd name bad terrain as the number one mistake. Absolutely none of the maps that are currently in the EU top... 40 actually have good terrain. Some have decent terrain (HotAT, Centipede TD) and some have over the top terrain (SoTIS... sorry Vjeux =P), but most have simply uninteresting and bad terrain (pretty much everything but those three named maps) Bifuu : Most mistakes are really coming from the Data Editor. Mostly with Actors, but i see a lot of great tutorials coming out from people like PM that are helping loads of people. progammer : Unpolished release mostly. Might be because of the stupid popularity system and the inability to host map without their official server. Also the lack of better communication channel in bnet prevent people from effectively testing the map. (I still wonder why we cant right click a map author and add him as a friends if publishing is the only way blizz allow us to play map right now) Karawasa : The number one mistake I see is taking on too much. There are countless people embarking on projects that they are not capable of doing. I don't believe people realize the risks and difficulties involved with either inventing a genre or pushing a current one forward. Please keep in mind that my definition of success or completion means something played on BNET. You could make the biggest RPG or the most advanced TD but if no one knows or cares then what have you really done? Second biggest mistake is not paying enough attention to polish. A game is an experience and neglecting your presentation is just bad style. Ample time should be spent refining your game. Finally, you must be open minded and critical of yourself and your work. I see far too many people who think their map is the best thing since sliced bread. If you take on that mentality you can't ever hope to maintain success (even if you somehow manage to create a one hit wonder). A game is never done, you should always be looking for ways to improve it. Alcoholix : Remakes of DotA and TD ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8. Are you interested in any old Starcraft 1/Warcraft 3 maps being remade in Sc2?. If so, Which ones?-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sixen : Bounds! Bounds, bound, bounds! NEEDZ MOAR BOUNDAGE! b0ne123 : The only map I remember from SC1 is a fastest $$$ map and the good TD map made by Blizzard in WC3. Never played SC1 or WC3 online. Malu05 : Again i don't see much interest in re-makes of old map, as much as i loved some of the old maps i don't think that we should recreate everything for every new generation of (W/St)arCraft games. Maybe once warcraft 4 or Starcraft 3 comes out it would be of interest to me to go back, but for now i think we should see ahead, instead of back. s3rius : Well, my good old survival maps from Warcraft 3 (Survival, Notd, DotD) and Snipers from SC1 (there might already be some and I just don't know it..). That'd be great to have them here again - but not only remade, but developed into something even better! Mozared : I'm not particularly interested in this, though I'd probably play through some of them. The editor is a pretty powerful tool, and I'm sure someone out there wilil get a couple of remakes just right. Bifuu : Yeah, someone make a burrow the siege tank map that just gives the siege tank a burrow ability so i can finally beat it! progammer : Might be all of them're being remade already. People could not resist such awesome map from debuting on sc2 Karawasa : I would like to see quality remakes of the following; DotA, Uther Party, X Hero Siege, and Tropical Tag. Alcoholix : Never played SC1 and WC3 :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 9. Starcraft 2 maps aside. Which old school games do you still play/enjoy?, if any.-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sixen :I still play some D2 on occasion, and I have been getting back into D1 surprisingly.. I usually stick to Blizzard games, you can never go wrong with Blizzard, ;). Bibendus : I used to play some old emulated games (amiga, mame) years ago but now I prefer to play new games. b0ne123 : Call of Duty 2 is still a very good multiplayer shooter and all glory for Secret of Evermore, the best RPG and the only one I've ever played a couple of times. I like the idea of a reagent based spell system. Nearly every other game uses some kind of endless replenishing mana. Malu05 : Enfos Team Sourvival was one of my favorite maps also a few of thoes defence maps that i can't remember the name of. One of the RPG maps i loved was this game where you constantly had choises, if you picked the wrong one you just died and had to start all over. Super fun. s3rius : None? :D Warcraft 3 and now Starcraft 2 are the games I spend by far the most time on. Most newer games are so short-lasting that I'm done with them after 3-4 days at most, and I've played through most of my old games so often that I know them by heart Mozared : I tend to play a lot of newer titles of old-school games lately (Settlers 7, Anno 1404), but I did recently complete the Warcraft 2 campaign again. Get Medieval is another awesome arcade game I keep around the house for parties. Bifuu : Tough to say, Mostly Civ when i have time (load of it which isnt much these days) and some not Old school games on the PS3 (PSN: Bifuu add me!) progammer : Not much pc game genres I played outside of blizzard's defined genre for PC gaming (typically rpg, rts). Remembered those old times with sc1, age of empires or red alert 2 :P Though I enjoyed turn based strategy and puzzle game also. (typically saying, turn based game is a puzzle anyway). As a side not, I suck at fps Karawasa : I played CS and CS:Source on and off for awhile. At the moment, I'm not playing any computer games other than SC2. My PS3 takes care of everything else (Modern Warfare 2, FF 13, GTA 4, Red Dead Redemption, God of War 3). Alcoholix : Maniac Mansion is one of my favorites, so is Dune2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10. What do you think is the future of custom maps for Starcraft 2?. With the power of the Galaxy editor, Do you think we`ll move into a time of new and exotic map concepts? or do you think people wont get around to harnessing the power of GE?(Similar to Worldedit being under utilized in terms of originality and function) and could you provide a reason why you believe so. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sixen : I definitely believe that we will be moving into a new era. I started my mapping back in the War2 days, before there was such thing as Triggers or AI really. From there, I moved onto SC1 and found how awesome StarEdit was. There was so much to discover in that realm, and there are still things that are undiscovered. From there, WorldEdit made some huge improvements in the way the editor worked, and again, new map/types were created. It's only logical to believe that new things will come out of the GalaxyEditor, especially because of how much more advanced it is than the War3 Editor. We're already seeing ridiculously crazy things and the Editor has only been around for 4 months. Bibendus : It's always hard to invent a new game concept so I can't predict if there will be any. The new editor is full of cool features, unfortunately the bigger one (key/mouse controls) are too laggy to use. I think that when blizzard will fix this problem a huge amount of new original games will come out, maybe copied by other standalone videogames but still original for the sc2 community. b0ne123 : I think a few people will get it and some great maps and concepts are coming in the future but a lot of people are going to stay with old and easy concepts like TD. Nearly everyone should be able to do a simple TD map after a couple of hours. I guess the biggest problem is the editor himself as powerful as it is, it is complex and confusing and missing a lot of explanation. It seems somebody with a very strange logic has created it. You need time to get behind it and I don't mean 2 hours every day, you need a lot of time to make use of the power. Malu05 : I think the future of Starcraft 2 maps lies in the hands of Blizzard. I know Blizzard have what it takes, the question is if they are willing to do it. Now before i start this discussion, don't get me wrong. We will most likely see interesting maps comming up in the future with new concepts and ideas. But they most likely won't utilize the full potential of the editor. When i talk to "serious" map developers their primary concern is the current state of Custom Maps. And i think its importaint for people to know that its not about "whining" or "not being able to utilize constraints". The custom game selection on battle.net will be getting a overhaul sooner or later and im sure Blizzard will be able to please most of us. But i don't think they will lift the limitations. And i don't think they will allow us to put maps into our maps folder and play them online. People usually say that the limitations is the charm, the fact that you can only use 10 mb per map and that you have certain trigger limitations. And i do agree to a certaint extend, it is charming to be a bit more creative with grapichs in order to reduce file size and maybe reuse some elements here and there. But if i want to do something serious, its unnesesary. At school when we work on our iPhone projects we usually spend 20-50 mb on a single product. That is 2-5 times more yet its only handheld device with a small <1k screen. And im sure that with all the sound and grapichs in the Starcraft 2 campain maps, Blizzard themselves are spending more than 10mb per map. People who have the creative minds to take this editor into overdrive is the same people that fear the limitations. You can sit down and get a bunch of great ideas and yet shoot them all down due to the size budget. If you want to make something that stand out from the crowd you have to make your own stuff. Not just Ûbberlisks or make a Marine shooting banelings, you want the marine to have its own weapons, skins and custom UI, you want to create a atmosphere that is not Starcraft 2 but that of your brainchild. Yet made with the easy and straight forwads editing tools that (W/St)arCraft games are known for. If Blizzard want to take this serious, im sure 'serious' Map makers will come along and make Starcraft 2 custom games stand out. But in the meantime, we have to live with Banelings, Ghosts and Tauren Space Marines. Battle.Net does have the potential to be the ultimate mod community. It's easy to get out to a audience (atleast in warcraft 3 it was) and you have a huge quantitude of potential players are willing to devote their time with mods and not just original gameplay. I guess we have made our statement at the Battle.net forums. Now its up to Blizzard to make it happen. s3rius : I have mixed feelings. On the one hand this editor grants us so much more power than we had in Warcraft, but on the other hand Blizzard will need months and months to iron out all the flaws and bugs that prevent us from really utilizing it. Some of these flaws might never get fixed. I think it will be at the time of Heart Of The Swarm or even Legacy Of The Void that the editor becomes a tool with which we can truly forge our dreams into reality. Mozared : We'll probably see some good maps, but the best maps will most likely be solo play. I've seen FPS's and games like that around, but they seem to always end up being terrible in an online environment. There are less limitations in single-player content and that's where we're going to see the true innovation. We'll see some renewal in the multiplayer levels, but I reckon it'll lag behind the awesome single player maps that will be made. Bifuu : SC2 is just starting, Look at how SC1 started and Ended, we started with StarEdit and ended up with Awesome Editors that allowed us to make maps that we could only dream of (Square terrain!) Im sure in a few months the 3rd party Editor Scene will be back (Im Watching our own MWE!) and maps will be 10 times what they are now in power and mechanics. Plus when the true power of the scripting language becomes fully understood that will allow some epic creations aswell. progammer : With it being that powerful, i doubt it will become less popular then world editor. Even though pc gaming died a little these day, blizz's effort to bring sc2 to esports will sure justify its custom scene. SC2Mapster will be the one making it real :) Karawasa : I believe we will see new genres invented because of the vast player base of SC2 along with the power of the GE. Keep in mind that a lot of developers have previous experience as well (which may make them more capable of taking on the task of being a pioneer). I wouldn't classify it as an era of new and exotic concepts though. Tried and true genres (AoS, TD etc.) will always be present. They will be a lot more advanced than WC3 though. Alcoholix : I hope we will see some fresh ideas taking over the popularity spots in the future. Also I am afraid GE will allways be under utilised, because compared to the trigger editor or the data editor, GE can be very intimidating, especially for people not familiar with programming

Last edited by _ForgeUser4548413: Sep 15, 2010

#3 Aug 26, 2010

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*Reserved*

#4 Aug 26, 2010

_ForgeUser4548413

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*Yep, Reserved again*

#7 Aug 29, 2010

_ForgeUser4840519

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Thats a really interesting thread. Must try to keep some of these comments in mind >.< thanks

#9 Sep 7, 2010

_ForgeUser4989

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Quite some useful information there, good read.

#11 Sep 15, 2010

_ForgeUser4333295

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What a fun little read on a most unexpected topic. I'm certainly one to appreciate the gumption it takes to write a guide on something so subjective and ambiguous...but there's one statement in particular that I can't in good conscience abide unchallenged:

Quote:
Its always best to work on the hardest aspects first. Leave polish for last. Get the main mechanics working first. So lets say you are doing an Rpg game. First begin work on your inventory mechanics, Leveling system, Save/Load feature etc.

I strongly advise against this approach. Instead, do what it takes to get a playable prototype up and running as quickly as possible: make that first area with that first enemy! I've seen too many budding designers playing around with buttons and knobs on YouTube, after spending twenty hours on a project without an ounce of gameplay to show for it. Save/Load least of all should be a priority...as a developer who has full control over his "avatar" you're likely to be manually buffing/moving him as needed throughout development anyway.

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#12 Sep 15, 2010

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Quote from TheZizz: Go
What a fun little read on a most unexpected topic. I'm certainly one to appreciate the gumption it takes to write a guide on something so subjective and ambiguous...but there's one statement in particular that I can't in good conscience abide unchallenged:

"Its always best to work on the hardest aspects first. Leave polish for last. Get the main mechanics working first. So lets say you are doing an Rpg game. First begin work on your inventory mechanics, Leveling system, Save/Load feature etc. "

I strongly advise against this approach. Instead, do what it takes to get a playable prototype up and running as quickly as possible: make that first area with that first enemy! I've seen too many budding designers playing around with buttons and knobs on YouTube, after spending twenty hours on a project without an ounce of gameplay to show for it. Save/Load least of all should be a priority...as a developer who has full control over his "avatar" you're likely to be manually buffing/moving him as needed throughout development anyway.

I agree and pretty much mean to get a playable prototype as you say. Mechanics/core features, developing a working model to use. Thats exactly what I set out to say, but maybe it came across differently to you? or you meant something else?. Im not sure.

Edit: Oh, also added, Sixen to the interviewed list

Last edited by _ForgeUser4548413: Sep 15, 2010

#13 Sep 15, 2010

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I had a hunch. It's mostly the examples that gave me cause to spurn, they just seem to miss the mark. Save/Load I covered. Inventory is hardly an imperative when there are no items. Same with leveling and especially huge "talent trees" when there are even no monsters to give experience. Instead I would say something like build your controls, combat system, camera, etc.

#14 Sep 15, 2010

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@TheZizz: Go

I see. I`ll take that into consideration and rework that section. Using an Rpg as an example was probably not the best choice to show a clear distinction in what I was trying to convey. Thanks for the advice.

#15 Sep 17, 2010

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@EternalWraith: Go

Nice thread and a great idea for a post. I started writing the following as a response to a question in the Blizzard contest submissions thread, but as it grew, I thought this would be a better place to post it. Some of this has been mentioned, but is worth repeating.

Don’t bite off more than you can chew

If you have never made a map before, start with a small mod. Everything you want to do will take 3 times longer then you expect, especially if you don’t know the editor. If you have made a map before and have a deadline, such as a contest, start with a small mod. Everything will still take 3 times longer then you expect. Plan accordingly.

Get core mechanics working early

Get the ‘game’ parts of the map working sooner rather than later. Nobody is going to care if you have the most beautiful terrain on battle.net if your map is buggy or not fun. Get a fun, working map, and then make it pretty.

Take notes of issues and ideas while playing/testing

If you notice something you need to fix or adjust in your map while you are playing it, write it down when you see it, so you don’t forget to fix it.

Use a test map

If you need to test or experiment with a concept, it’s sometimes quicker to create a new map to play around with the idea there rather than try and force it into your existing map. Not only can it save on load time for testing, but you can test it without all the clutter of the rest of your map getting in the way.

Save often

Save your work often, especially after completing a major feature. Save iterations of your map as different versions, so if you need to go back to an old version, you can.

Beta testers

There are right and wrong ways to test. Before you let someone beta test your map you should 1) get your core mechanics working the way you want them to, 2) fix the known bugs, 3) let a beta tester know what needs testing and what not to worry about yet (ie: focus testing). If you don’t, you’ll get feedback on all kinds of things you haven’t worked on and burn out your beta testers at the same time.

Actively solicit and be open to constructive criticism from your testers. I’ve had many beta testers that didn’t feel comfortable saying something bad about a map, so I’ve had to start always asking questions like what thing or things did you like the least about the map, or what would you change? Getting praise is much easier then getting criticism, but constructive criticism is MUCH more useful. At the same time, don’t let criticism bother you. Embrace it. You don’t have to agree with it, but at least consider what other people think. Finally, before you release, have a tester who has never seen the map try it. Getting a fresh perspective can really help find little things that you may have taken for granted.

Brainstorm with another person

Any idea can be made better, even yours. Just because you had the idea, doesn’t mean that other people can’t improve on it or add other/better thoughts. Listen to other people’s ideas and share your own with them. Even if you don’t use their ideas as presented, sometimes the core of the concept can be made to work. Of course, you don’t have to take every idea presented, but that’s what brainstorming is about.

Schedule your time and don’t forget to take breaks

Sometimes, I find myself staring at my map and not getting anything done. If this happens, take a break. You can either work on a different part of the map, such as terrain, or get up and take the dog for a walk or watch a TV show. A 10 to 30 minute break can do wonders when things come to a standstill, just don’t forget to get back to the map.

Create cheats

Cheats didn’t start out being cheats. They were/are debugging tools used to making testing easier. Create ways to quickly go in a test certain areas of your map, such as quick ways to level up, skip to certain areas or levels, pause enemy units or display debug messages. They will save a lot of time.

Load screens and presentation

Your load screen and map images form a player’s first impression of your work. I don’t need to tell you how important these first impressions are. I realize that many map developers aren’t artists, but that doesn’t make it ok to just throw a bunch of text on the screen and call it a day. You are putting a front on all that work you just finished putting into your level; it’s your call on how you want to present it.

Last edited by _ForgeUser4951244: Sep 17, 2010

#16 Sep 17, 2010

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@Magi66: Go

Excellent post;)
Finally some addition to this thread. I hope more people will add information like this. Often overlooked, but it can save a person vast amounts of time and offer invaluable knowledge.

#17 Sep 19, 2010

BifuuPlays

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makes me feel special haha (yes im still around, just lurking a bit xD)

I may be skinny but I CALLDOWN THE HUNGER

#18 Sep 19, 2010

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Nice and useful. :)

Heh. With the SC2 conversion I'm working on, I'm wondering if I'll be one of those "early" pioneers :P.

#19 Sep 19, 2010

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Amazing post!!! I really love this.

This seems to nail many of the problems I personally see in the current set of custom maps. Atleast on the EU realm. Personally I think EVERY map maker has to have a read through this, and this is especially true to the highly-ambitious map makers, which makes for the majority of them.

If there's anything I'd quote as my favorite line, its this:

Quote:
2. What would you say are some of the elements that make a good and fun map?

Quote from s3rius:
Easy understandable gameplay. Not much to say about it.

I am a KISS principle practitioner by heart even at the days before I heard of it, KISS stands for "Keep It Simple, Stupid!". And I've spent most of my time emphasizing the importance of Usability in everything (Not just IT solutions)!

To keep it short, I feel the biggest problem with the maps out there is:

Complexity WITHOUT proper introductory presentation and/or interface!

Either keep it simple, or make it feel simple!

EDIT: Where're my manners. THANK YOU EVERYONE who contributed to the interviews! I love all the input and I'm going to put as much as I can of it into practice :) This I can promise

Last edited by _ForgeUser25865: Sep 20, 2010

#20 Sep 20, 2010

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I never released anything - I failed to beat the popularity system and the current player count/length restrictions/no WASD controls online make it not worth doing for me.

Still I spent a long time on several maps and here are my findings:

- Core mechanics first.

- If you need a lot of triggers, use functions and split them up as much as possible. You want to be able to reuse them down the road and make quick and easy modifications. Large triggers end up turning into copypasta and spaghetti code.

- If the player has access to multiple units, implement exactly two of them so you can test whether the unit selection code works. If there are several enemies, implement one of them. Etc. Leave the creative work for the very last - unless you have everything flawlessly planned in advance, you'll have to modify or scrap things and it's much easier to adapt two units instead of 20. Not to mention placing doodads before you are 100% convinced about the map layout.

- User friendly! User friendly! Use unit and UI tooltips. If a building does something, make a tooltip that tells the player what it does. Don't make them click on everything and see if it does something (ahem SotIS). Another little convenience is colour coded upgrades: upgrades that go together have the same icon colour. If you think your upgrades are logical and make sense, play some HoN and look at the shop. They thought their item layout made sense, too.

- Polish. Missing wireframe tooltips, units that shoot missiles from the ground, ugly UI, ...

- The terrain. It doesn't have to be crammed with graphics but at least it should have more than basic cliffs and a handful of doodads. At least use texture blending.

#21 Sep 21, 2010

rageninpo

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For some reason I disagree with the majority of this thread and from the sound of it I play more custom games then just about all the people interviewed.

A good game is good.

There is no specific point that makes a game good. Its largely trial and error.

Its also impossible to make everybody happy.

Last edited by rageninpo: Sep 21, 2010

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#22 Sep 22, 2010

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Quote from SouLCarveRR: Go
For some reason I disagree with the majority of this thread and from the sound of it I play more custom games then just about all the people interviewed.

A good game is good.

There is no specific point that makes a game good. Its largely trial and error.

Its also impossible to make everybody happy.

You have a habit of trolling and being negative in general. I have indeed noticed it.

#23 Sep 22, 2010

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Quote from SouLCarveRR: Go
For some reason I disagree with the majority of this thread and from the sound of it I play more custom games then just about all the people interviewed.

A good game is good.

There is no specific point that makes a game good. Its largely trial and error.

Its also impossible to make everybody happy.

Your argument would even be invalid if good old Abe didn't have a gatling arm.

You're right with the last one tho - you can never make everyone happy. There'll always be someone who wants your map to be more like dota.

#24 Sep 22, 2010

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@SouLCarveRR: Go

Thank you for your insightful comment. Unless you have any other wisdom to bestow us regular map makers then please leave this thread.

According to your post you cannot state that anything makes a difference on the quality of the map. You seem to have responded as if the on-topic had claimed some sort of recepy for perfection while it simply states that there are certain things that improves the overall quality of a map. Which is true for everybody except the non existent player base that prefers shallow, bug ridden and overly complex maps.

Last edited by _ForgeUser4398850: Sep 22, 2010