That's so damn impressive. I love the attention to detail.
Is the hero icon in the top left something that is now an official UI element (like, say, the idle worker button), or is that something you added just for this map?
the only changes they will make are related to Heroes, so i have doubts that they will do that. if i am wrong i want an validator for the owner of a buff, dialog item with target (and filters), target filters being their own data object, an easy way to level abilities, i could continue ...
I dont think that editor need so many features. It's not the professional tool for a game developers after all. The way data system is organized is so you basicaly need 1 data object for each task. Blizzard already did a fairly good job on making this objects as unified as possible so the same object behaves differently in various constructions. Every new data object will drasticaly increase difficulty for a newcomers and the complexity of editor's architecture overal.
You may smile right now cuz i was the one who was bitching alot about the wc3 assets quality recently, but the point is Blizzard will implement mostly features that they need for LotV, for their designers' ideas. And then they will just share this editor build with us. We are small group of people which even dont pay anything to Blizz, so... no point for them to provide us some new tools. When you start building shit you want this and that and then you want to implement this idea and then more more and more. And then you want fantasy assets, then you change your mind and want new possibilities for physics engine or 2D sprite support! and Blizz like: "what the fuck is wrong with you ppl". And they are right.....
That is true. Words can't describe how I happy I'd be if some LotV missions would use multiple creep types t_t, would make some fun stuff, alas, I know better than to hope for something like that.
Also, there is a sort of exchange going on, we contribute our time to make something that can provide longevity and diversity to sc2, which is important, tho blizz seem to have some sort of split personality in regards to arcade. On one hand they advertize and promote it (showcases, contest and now assets) but on the other hand they are incredibly half-assed about whole b-net part of arcade (which makes being in arcade a much less exciting activity than making a map in itself). It's disturbing when you start to think about it..
Still we should do everything to bring our wishes to blizz, it's what we responsible for. We can't force them, but we can try. Also, we don't know what they think about it. Some conservative mapmakers may think editor doesn't need new things, blizz may think opposite, we don't know. The fact that editor exist already implies they are interested in our mapmaking. And it's a good timing these days, if they (supposedly) started editing the engine itself for lotv needs, it may be a good moment to ask for a couple of things.
Every new data object will drasticaly increase difficulty for a newcomers and the complexity of editor's architecture overal.
It will definitely not. Data is a set of independent objects that can be functionally connected. Adding more types won't affect newcomers, they simply won't be aware of, and jsut keep creating their simple things. Also, it won't complexify "architecture", architecture is rather the rules of of how data parts connected, it will stay in object oriented paradigm. It may slightly complexify data structures if mapmakers start using new features, which is the purpose of cahnges actually.
But the changes we want are not limited by data changes.
But you right after all, editor will always have its limits, even if blizz will do a couple of changes every year.
Well i just expressed my feelings when i launched this editor 1st time. The amount of stuff you get thrown in your face is ridiculous. I dont know what others felt but my mind tried to embrace whole thing to get the basic picture of whats going on here. So i figured my point relying on that feeling. Also what i found while working with data effects and actors is there are at least 2 different ways for implementation of a single idea, but when you get experienced with editor you will see that there is actualy only one way to make thing right and optimized. And it requires massive knowledge of the whole objects and data fields. Also there are many hidden surprises, when you dont know why thing desn't work. I remember how 3 years ago i discovered that missiles have "Suppress Death Event" flag after 2 days of figuring why i cant run death animation on my missile units.
This also describes the design concept of the editor. It is good for internal use, when i can go in adjoining room and ask from the software engineer how to do things. Basicaly i think it is made even in opposite way. The key people are game designers, and artist and software developers are service providers. The designers have demand and being supplied with stuff they want. So for users more data could be frustrating thats what i meant.
I think as long as the data is stored in additional mod files it's fine.
For SC2 it might be too late, but I hope WC4 is going to have a data editor with much better overview and information without losing functionality. I also hope they take the opportunity and make it available to anyone, like Unity Engine. Combined with the existing assets it would be the ultimate game engine for top-down games. And give us a platform to sell our games and we will be happy to give you 10% of the money we make (or something like that :P)
I think the pipeline is basicaly following: producers with help of marketing guys studying the market and player demands, then they calculating the whole project (costs, deadlines, etc), taking the risks. After that they bringing their rough concept/vision to game designers and they start to go in detail, with all the balance issues, gameplay mechanics etcetera. Then artists and software engineers catch up by implementing those.
I dont know how far Blizz want to go with this "galaxy platform" but i think it may end up being some map marketplace with 1-5$ price range. Having lot of free-lancing game designers, which can provide some enjoyable experience for the target audience is always nice. I know what you think Zolden, the Unity is much better and all, but let's be objective here. The key problem is not scripting and programming but assets. It is time consuming to that point when it's unacceptable to make it by your own along with coding for "succesful-level-of-quality" game, and if you aware of getting cancer in age of 40. So as for my personal opinion the Unity is for developer teams, while this galaxy platform could become something for passionate individuals. Providing some simple cheap Arcade games when you got multiplayer platform, vast array of assets and whats most important the initial player base is achievable goal for one person. You see they choose this "Arcade" designation purposefully. Arcade means simple enjoyable games. You can see it also by their judgement criteria when they run map making contest and templar tv got some prize place while being pretty simple map. This contest was the first blizzard approbation if this is a ground they can stand on or quicksands.
While i don't approve this marketplace idea, nor i expect it or need it at all, this is also a possible option, simply because Blizzard already invested in this technology a LOT of money. However there is an obstacle that prevents them from doing so. I think the sc2 hadn't such success as wc3, and when i joining to the arcade there are very few people for each particular map (except the top-listed ones). I think this is due to some reasonable mistakes that were made with this whole arcade concept, but at least blizz taking attempts to reanimate it, mostly because as i said, lot of effort and money was invested in this engine and tools.
They most likely will be using the same galaxy platform with some improvements. They already invested enough for people's education. Also there is a slight chance that WC4 never happens due to this moba corruption. Back in wc3 days lot of player base was drawn with dota 1 (including myself, lol). Blizzard somewhat aware of this tendency, because you know, when they reading 1000 posts on bnet forums that sc2 is "DAED GAEM", they may come up with idea that it's not something wrong with sc2 but with the RTS genre in general which becomes extremely niche.
Epilogue
But the most epic fail of Blizzard was when they discard the IceFrog, thats for sure :)). Getting the game that was developed, balanced and polished for over 5 years for free and it's game designer in one pack was the best offer they will ever have, whatever payment IceFrog demanded. Somehow Valve knew this :)). So GJ Gabe Newell.
Would be nice to know an approximation of PTRs duration. 2 week, a month, two months? Do I make something quick and dirty just for test or do I make something quick-ish but with some thought behind it? :o
Edit: PTR Editor -> Dependencies -> Add Other -> Battle Net -> Americas -> Warcraft III (Data Mod).
Edit2: Dear God.. well here's a question - since wc3 units don't have sc2-like wireframes/shields do we make them ourselves (at least those of us who have photoshop)? and make end user (players) download several megabytes of wireframes/shields if we wish to keep units in same format when using both franchise assets in a map? Or blizz would extend it's helping hand with this endeavor too?
Say, if someone would make wireframes and send them to blizz for inclusion in this mod - would they accept it? (not that I can imagine anyone going through and making all of them). Or would we need to make our own community mod for that..
Ok the data is indeed lack any ability but the pre set unit-hero-item data is good enough. And awesome that you implemented the UI. But and here is a big BUT- We still can't choose custom races,aka the orcs, humans, night elves and undeads, in the lobby. So please fix the custom races in lobby already, we asked it many times and this would be a good opportunity. Because without solving this we can't choose these warcraft races with their nice UI-just pre set them in maps. But anyway a big ups for these stuffs already.
is it live on the american region? I keep getting this error when i try to log on for the supposed "war3 data mod"
Did you try to enter the PTR's battle.net with the game, yet?
Yes, the Americas server is correct.
Warning: Don't list all of Blizzard's documents in the editor. It nearly locked up my computer due to CPU stress on 4 cores and it failed to finish whatever it attempted to do within 7 minutes. Blizzard did not fix their open-file dialog implementation...
@Renee2islga: Go
That's so damn impressive. I love the attention to detail.
Is the hero icon in the top left something that is now an official UI element (like, say, the idle worker button), or is that something you added just for this map?
The assets are not released. They are "Available for testing" but not released, yet.
Hope this finally gets people to move from WC3. So much modding talent is still trapped with a decade old game it is depressing.
the only changes they will make are related to Heroes, so i have doubts that they will do that. if i am wrong i want an validator for the owner of a buff, dialog item with target (and filters), target filters being their own data object, an easy way to level abilities, i could continue ...
I dont think that editor need so many features. It's not the professional tool for a game developers after all. The way data system is organized is so you basicaly need 1 data object for each task. Blizzard already did a fairly good job on making this objects as unified as possible so the same object behaves differently in various constructions. Every new data object will drasticaly increase difficulty for a newcomers and the complexity of editor's architecture overal.
You may smile right now cuz i was the one who was bitching alot about the wc3 assets quality recently, but the point is Blizzard will implement mostly features that they need for LotV, for their designers' ideas. And then they will just share this editor build with us. We are small group of people which even dont pay anything to Blizz, so... no point for them to provide us some new tools. When you start building shit you want this and that and then you want to implement this idea and then more more and more. And then you want fantasy assets, then you change your mind and want new possibilities for physics engine or 2D sprite support! and Blizz like: "what the fuck is wrong with you ppl". And they are right.....
@abvdzh: Go
That is true. Words can't describe how I happy I'd be if some LotV missions would use multiple creep types t_t, would make some fun stuff, alas, I know better than to hope for something like that.
Also, there is a sort of exchange going on, we contribute our time to make something that can provide longevity and diversity to sc2, which is important, tho blizz seem to have some sort of split personality in regards to arcade. On one hand they advertize and promote it (showcases, contest and now assets) but on the other hand they are incredibly half-assed about whole b-net part of arcade (which makes being in arcade a much less exciting activity than making a map in itself). It's disturbing when you start to think about it..
@abvdzh: Go
Still we should do everything to bring our wishes to blizz, it's what we responsible for. We can't force them, but we can try. Also, we don't know what they think about it. Some conservative mapmakers may think editor doesn't need new things, blizz may think opposite, we don't know. The fact that editor exist already implies they are interested in our mapmaking. And it's a good timing these days, if they (supposedly) started editing the engine itself for lotv needs, it may be a good moment to ask for a couple of things.
It will definitely not. Data is a set of independent objects that can be functionally connected. Adding more types won't affect newcomers, they simply won't be aware of, and jsut keep creating their simple things. Also, it won't complexify "architecture", architecture is rather the rules of of how data parts connected, it will stay in object oriented paradigm. It may slightly complexify data structures if mapmakers start using new features, which is the purpose of cahnges actually.
But the changes we want are not limited by data changes.
But you right after all, editor will always have its limits, even if blizz will do a couple of changes every year.
One question : Will Blizzard going to release the datas of their War3 assets ?
Well i just expressed my feelings when i launched this editor 1st time. The amount of stuff you get thrown in your face is ridiculous. I dont know what others felt but my mind tried to embrace whole thing to get the basic picture of whats going on here. So i figured my point relying on that feeling. Also what i found while working with data effects and actors is there are at least 2 different ways for implementation of a single idea, but when you get experienced with editor you will see that there is actualy only one way to make thing right and optimized. And it requires massive knowledge of the whole objects and data fields. Also there are many hidden surprises, when you dont know why thing desn't work. I remember how 3 years ago i discovered that missiles have "Suppress Death Event" flag after 2 days of figuring why i cant run death animation on my missile units.
This also describes the design concept of the editor. It is good for internal use, when i can go in adjoining room and ask from the software engineer how to do things. Basicaly i think it is made even in opposite way. The key people are game designers, and artist and software developers are service providers. The designers have demand and being supplied with stuff they want. So for users more data could be frustrating thats what i meant.
I think as long as the data is stored in additional mod files it's fine.
For SC2 it might be too late, but I hope WC4 is going to have a data editor with much better overview and information without losing functionality. I also hope they take the opportunity and make it available to anyone, like Unity Engine. Combined with the existing assets it would be the ultimate game engine for top-down games. And give us a platform to sell our games and we will be happy to give you 10% of the money we make (or something like that :P)
@Zolden: Go
I think the pipeline is basicaly following: producers with help of marketing guys studying the market and player demands, then they calculating the whole project (costs, deadlines, etc), taking the risks. After that they bringing their rough concept/vision to game designers and they start to go in detail, with all the balance issues, gameplay mechanics etcetera. Then artists and software engineers catch up by implementing those.
I dont know how far Blizz want to go with this "galaxy platform" but i think it may end up being some map marketplace with 1-5$ price range. Having lot of free-lancing game designers, which can provide some enjoyable experience for the target audience is always nice. I know what you think Zolden, the Unity is much better and all, but let's be objective here. The key problem is not scripting and programming but assets. It is time consuming to that point when it's unacceptable to make it by your own along with coding for "succesful-level-of-quality" game, and if you aware of getting cancer in age of 40. So as for my personal opinion the Unity is for developer teams, while this galaxy platform could become something for passionate individuals. Providing some simple cheap Arcade games when you got multiplayer platform, vast array of assets and whats most important the initial player base is achievable goal for one person. You see they choose this "Arcade" designation purposefully. Arcade means simple enjoyable games. You can see it also by their judgement criteria when they run map making contest and templar tv got some prize place while being pretty simple map. This contest was the first blizzard approbation if this is a ground they can stand on or quicksands.
While i don't approve this marketplace idea, nor i expect it or need it at all, this is also a possible option, simply because Blizzard already invested in this technology a LOT of money. However there is an obstacle that prevents them from doing so. I think the sc2 hadn't such success as wc3, and when i joining to the arcade there are very few people for each particular map (except the top-listed ones). I think this is due to some reasonable mistakes that were made with this whole arcade concept, but at least blizz taking attempts to reanimate it, mostly because as i said, lot of effort and money was invested in this engine and tools.
@OutsiderXE: Go
They most likely will be using the same galaxy platform with some improvements. They already invested enough for people's education. Also there is a slight chance that WC4 never happens due to this moba corruption. Back in wc3 days lot of player base was drawn with dota 1 (including myself, lol). Blizzard somewhat aware of this tendency, because you know, when they reading 1000 posts on bnet forums that sc2 is "DAED GAEM", they may come up with idea that it's not something wrong with sc2 but with the RTS genre in general which becomes extremely niche.
Epilogue
But the most epic fail of Blizzard was when they discard the IceFrog, thats for sure :)). Getting the game that was developed, balanced and polished for over 5 years for free and it's game designer in one pack was the best offer they will ever have, whatever payment IceFrog demanded. Somehow Valve knew this :)). So GJ Gabe Newell.
Okay. *Now* it's live.
http://us.battle.net/arcade/en/blog/17796669/warcraft-iii-assets-now-available-on-the-ptr-2-2-2015
gentlemen, to your battlestations
And PTR is all cleaned up too! Neat!
Would be nice to know an approximation of PTRs duration. 2 week, a month, two months? Do I make something quick and dirty just for test or do I make something quick-ish but with some thought behind it? :o
Edit: PTR Editor -> Dependencies -> Add Other -> Battle Net -> Americas -> Warcraft III (Data Mod).
Edit2: Dear God.. well here's a question - since wc3 units don't have sc2-like wireframes/shields do we make them ourselves (at least those of us who have photoshop)? and make end user (players) download several megabytes of wireframes/shields if we wish to keep units in same format when using both franchise assets in a map? Or blizz would extend it's helping hand with this endeavor too?
Say, if someone would make wireframes and send them to blizz for inclusion in this mod - would they accept it? (not that I can imagine anyone going through and making all of them). Or would we need to make our own community mod for that..
Does this mean that the PTR editor can now handle Heroes of the Storm models? Because I swear that water elemental is the same one Jaina has in HotS.
is it live on the american region? I keep getting this error when i try to log on for the supposed "war3 data mod"
[IMG]//i57.tinypic.com/1ihq86.png" rel="noopener nofollow" target="_blank">http://i57.tinypic.com/1ihq86.png[/IMG">http://i57.tinypic.com/1ihq86.png[/IMG]
@Traysent: Go
Ok the data is indeed lack any ability but the pre set unit-hero-item data is good enough. And awesome that you implemented the UI. But and here is a big BUT- We still can't choose custom races,aka the orcs, humans, night elves and undeads, in the lobby. So please fix the custom races in lobby already, we asked it many times and this would be a good opportunity. Because without solving this we can't choose these warcraft races with their nice UI-just pre set them in maps. But anyway a big ups for these stuffs already.
Did you try to enter the PTR's battle.net with the game, yet?
Yes, the Americas server is correct.
Warning: Don't list all of Blizzard's documents in the editor. It nearly locked up my computer due to CPU stress on 4 cores and it failed to finish whatever it attempted to do within 7 minutes. Blizzard did not fix their open-file dialog implementation...
I'm uploading my war3 mod too.
@DuckyTheDuck: Go
I'm estimating the PTR period will be about one month.
@howdyyy: Go
The PTR is available only on the the North American server.
@Domper: Go
I'm going to bring up custom races internally and see if we can make any progress on this.
nice, feedback made it finally through to the blizzard HQ, :D