As well all know DOTA was based around WC3's use of heroes. Why have we yet to see a DOTA styled game (3 planetary fortresses on each side of the map, each one used to spawn different units in exchange for minerals) where you use say, squads of marines (or any other units just in a squad of around 8-12 units) that have have up gradable ability's, that level up, and have ultimate's like in DOTA where you can also buy items that effect your whole squad.
It could be set up in a fashion where a player chooses what squad they want to play as, there is a large jungle area on both sides of the maps where players kill units and strong multi unit micro is essential, and for each group of killed group of jungle units you can then choose to spawn those units for your lane (say if you kill a group of BC's, you can then spawn a BC in your lane), fortresses can be upgraded and it puts a strong emphasis on squad based micro game play mixed in with strategic elements such as, do I spend my minerals on a squad upgrade, lane unit upgrade, or defensive upgrade?
I'm just surprised that I have not seen a game that fits this criteria yet and I know that some will mention Marina Arena but Marine Arena really has way too many units and is not based around small player controlled squad battles nor automatic lane spawning of player chosen "creep".
Does anyone here think that this would be a good idea for a game, or a game that they would like to play?
I had started working on something like this but Mobas are very time consuming to create. Some of the ideas I had included allowing your hero to build towers in the lanes to mix "tower defense" elements in, as well as allowing heroes to spawn units that follow then like a squad (based on brood lord, carrier hanger abilities).
You should start a thread for ideas because this has been considered before.
Also check this game out as it is what most of us have dreamed of:
I'm really not sure how you got from DotA to "3 planetary fortresses on each side of the map, each one used to spawn different units in exchange for minerals".
In any case, there already is a DotA style game, it's called Aeon of Storms.
There have been a few, and they're not popular just because it's not a very fun concept. Microing multiple units for 10-60 minutes just becomes mentally exhausting, let alone fun.
However you should try End of Nations (not a custom map, it's a full game). It's basically exactly what you are describing. I think it's in closed beta now though.
I had started working on something like this but Mobas are very time consuming to create. Some of the ideas I had included allowing your hero to build towers in the lanes to mix "tower defense" elements in, as well as allowing heroes to spawn units that follow then like a squad (based on brood lord, carrier hanger abilities).
You should start a thread for ideas because this has been considered before.
Also check this game out as it is what most of us have dreamed of:
I have a game that I've been working on for some time that has a few of the aspects you mention, called Aerostrike. The best way I can describe it is "SC2-meets-DotA", although it is for the most part a stategy game with some Hero Battle elements thrown in (and some say it also has a bit of Tug-of-War). However, there are no heroes, jungles or items, just standard units (with one for each race that can resemble a hero to a degree, but are still "normal" units nonetheless), constant waves of ground units (creeps), various unit-specific and race-specific upgrades, and some other misc. features, like the mini bosses that spawn after some time. Also, players can build units of any race at any time
Its currently available in the NA and EU servers, in case you might want to check it out. It's still in Open Beta, so things can change or suddenly break to be fixed later, and it can take a while to get a game going due to unpopularity
This exact concept was rounding up in my head for a while, I was thinking about indirect control unit groups and the hero - leader. For example, you control the hero but every unit you will add in his squad controlled by AI and you only have like 2 buttons in your hero command card "engage" or "defencive stance" which determine the AI behaviour. So this units will be like substitution for classic dota items. I think that concept has a potential, but unfortunately that will be very time consuming map to develop.
I agree with you guys. The time necessary needed to make a map like this would be long but I think that it would be worth it.
Some may think that microing small forces of units is exhausting but others (high level SC2 players generally speaking) are used to it and for us, we find it very rewarding.
Someone mentioned Aoen of Storm but I was talking about specifically, a squad based game (no heroes) in which you micro a squad of units of your choice (say, 8 marines or any other unit of choice) and of which your squad has 3 main ability's a long with a passive.
There would be a big emphasis on strategy unlike Marine Arena, in which you could either spend minerals on buying stronger lane "creep", buying upgrades for your squads such as +accuracy (Each squad of units could have their own set of attributes and a miss/accuracy function could be added.), +Attack Speed, +Armor, etc, a long with the ability to increase your defenses (towers) ability's such as attack damage, armor, or even increase your income over time via an upgrade.
The main emphasis would be on small (or even large depending on how many players engage each other) tactical battles and having good micro behind a sound strategy.....similar to SC2 without all of the base building. Individual unit micro would be key and losing a unit could cost you a set amount of minerals making each unit critical.
There could be 2 main jungle areas on both sides of the map (4 total) and killing a set "tier" of units (say.....BC's in one area) could unlock the ability to spawn them as creep for your team if you put the minerals into them.
There could be rocks blocking the two teams in the very early stages of the game from engaging each other while the creeps takes out the rock and clears a path to the other team (a tower could be placed in each teams main spawn area, along with in both jungle areas) setting up the game to have three stages (an early game where you would focus on keeping each unit alive while taking out a set tier of units so that you can A. Spawn them and/or B. upgrade your units. And/or C. Upgrade your income or defenses (towers).
The mid game would place a bigger emphasis on team battles and the late game would be when lots of heavy handed high tiered lane creep are being spawned and most players squads have become God like and big epic battles are taking place (think marines splitting away from storms, baneling bombs exploding over incoming units, and chargelots charging into a group of squishy HT's using their ultimate of slowing down the enemy while increasing attack damage by 3X) all occuring at once while lane spawned ultralisks are going after a tower.
Jungling could be very important as towers would be very potent and be capable of tons of splash damage yet your units could start out as practically garbage and then end up Godlike in the late stages in the game once that you've acquired enough upgrades for your squad units.
There could also be rune drops at key fighting locations (such as out on the sides of mid) just like there are in DOTA that spawn that increases your squads movement speed or attack damage.
Heck, lane units could even possibly upgraded just like they are in SC2 making strategy play an even more important role (think players investing into early late game unit upgrades preparing for the late game while taking a small risk or not taking a small risk depending if they want to play it safe while they're ahead and just get further ahead).
The skies the limit and I think the concept has a ton of potential.
My problem is that I find learning the SC2 editor to be very boring & mundane and I only like coming up with ideas (like most others more than likely).
The skies the limit and I think the concept has a ton of potential.
I personally don't really see the difference between this and any other MOBA despite it being squad based. Which is pretty cool, but I think having squads is not such a game-changing difference that you have a ton of differences to other MOBA maps/games. It has a ton of potential, but so does every other MOBA game with their slight differences.
WC3 (and SCBW as well) had a lot of these Aeon of Strife variations out of which Dota originated, where you could upgrade the lane units, buy new lane units, do all sorts of shit. There is a reason why Dota stood out and is what it is now, because the gameplay works and has been improved very iteratively over the span of the WC3 lifetime, not only by the Dota creators but also by all the people who worked on other maps in this whole Aeon of Strife category, showing the Dota devs which gameplay elements are fun and which ones are not so fun. With that I don't mean to say that Dota is the end of the MOBA genre and there is no room for improving or changing it, I think it's just always fun to see where games came from and out of which ideas they originated, because there were a lot of smart people who thought about the issues before and could save me work to not make the same mistakes again and end up with a not so fun game concept :)
As for your last point, very few people have genuinely fun by just learning. If you detach the process of learning from the content and purpose of what you have learned it becomes quite clear that the process isn't very fun. Learning is tedious and boring. Learning something ultimately means getting more freedom to do what you want to do though, because you get lifetimes worth of knowledge and work from other people out of it. Learning something can "streamline" your imagination, since you don't waste time imagining things by yourself that probably won't work in the way you imagined and are worthless, and instead gives you room to imagine other things that are in the bounds of what other people have imagined before but still go into a new direction.
You clearly have a lot of cool ideas and passion thinking about game design, but it will be hard and would be relying on pure chance to just stop there and hope to get something out of writing a text about it. I hope you don't stop there, we always need more people!
I personally don't really see the difference between this and any other MOBA despite it being squad based. Which is pretty cool, but I think having squads is not such a game-changing difference that you have a ton of differences to other MOBA maps/games. It has a ton of potential, but so does every other MOBA game with their slight differences.
WC3 (and SCBW as well) had a lot of these Aeon of Strife variations out of which Dota originated, where you could upgrade the lane units, buy new lane units, do all sorts of shit. There is a reason why Dota stood out and is what it is now, because the gameplay works and has been improved very iteratively over the span of the WC3 lifetime, not only by the Dota creators but also by all the people who worked on other maps in this whole Aeon of Strife category, showing the Dota devs which gameplay elements are fun and which ones are not so fun. With that I don't mean to say that Dota is the end of the MOBA genre and there is no room for improving or changing it, I think it's just always fun to see where games came from and out of which ideas they originated, because there were a lot of smart people who thought about the issues before and could save me work to not make the same mistakes again and end up with a not so fun game concept :)
As for your last point, very few people have genuinely fun by just learning. If you detach the process of learning from the content and purpose of what you have learned it becomes quite clear that the process isn't very fun. Learning is tedious and boring. Learning something ultimately means getting more freedom to do what you want to do though, because you get lifetimes worth of knowledge and work from other people out of it. Learning something can "streamline" your imagination, since you don't waste time imagining things by yourself that probably won't work in the way you imagined and are worthless, and instead gives you room to imagine other things that are in the bounds of what other people have imagined before but still go into a new direction.
You clearly have a lot of cool ideas and passion thinking about game design, but it will be hard and would be relying on pure chance to just stop there and hope to get something out of writing a text about it. I hope you don't stop there, we always need more people!
You make a very good point about most learning not being fun. The only time that I ever had fun learning was through actual doing (Photography is primarily learnt through "doing" which is why I love it so much.) I will continue to be involved with the SC2 editor and learn it in my free time and treat game design as a hobby. I doubt that it will ever go past a hobby though as I will be making games that I think would be fun instead of trying to appeal to the masses (The COD series a long with most mainstream titles have turned game design more into a business design more than anything else).
With that being said, I have a few really cool ideas for this mod and will continue to work on it in my free time and continue to learn the editor.
If you have any questions about how to accomplish something come into the #sc2mapster IRC channel on freenode, there are always people around and usually at least some are active in the chat at any time and happy to help with problems regarding the editor.
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As well all know DOTA was based around WC3's use of heroes. Why have we yet to see a DOTA styled game (3 planetary fortresses on each side of the map, each one used to spawn different units in exchange for minerals) where you use say, squads of marines (or any other units just in a squad of around 8-12 units) that have have up gradable ability's, that level up, and have ultimate's like in DOTA where you can also buy items that effect your whole squad.
It could be set up in a fashion where a player chooses what squad they want to play as, there is a large jungle area on both sides of the maps where players kill units and strong multi unit micro is essential, and for each group of killed group of jungle units you can then choose to spawn those units for your lane (say if you kill a group of BC's, you can then spawn a BC in your lane), fortresses can be upgraded and it puts a strong emphasis on squad based micro game play mixed in with strategic elements such as, do I spend my minerals on a squad upgrade, lane unit upgrade, or defensive upgrade?
I'm just surprised that I have not seen a game that fits this criteria yet and I know that some will mention Marina Arena but Marine Arena really has way too many units and is not based around small player controlled squad battles nor automatic lane spawning of player chosen "creep".
Does anyone here think that this would be a good idea for a game, or a game that they would like to play?
@Sovern: Go
I had started working on something like this but Mobas are very time consuming to create. Some of the ideas I had included allowing your hero to build towers in the lanes to mix "tower defense" elements in, as well as allowing heroes to spawn units that follow then like a squad (based on brood lord, carrier hanger abilities).
You should start a thread for ideas because this has been considered before.
Also check this game out as it is what most of us have dreamed of:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=182740106
@Sovern: Go
I'm really not sure how you got from DotA to "3 planetary fortresses on each side of the map, each one used to spawn different units in exchange for minerals".
In any case, there already is a DotA style game, it's called Aeon of Storms.
There have been a few, and they're not popular just because it's not a very fun concept. Microing multiple units for 10-60 minutes just becomes mentally exhausting, let alone fun.
However you should try End of Nations (not a custom map, it's a full game). It's basically exactly what you are describing. I think it's in closed beta now though.
Oh wow, so much of that looks so completely IP-infringingly close to StarCraft...
@TyaStarcraft: Go
Agreed but it also looks very fun
I have a game that I've been working on for some time that has a few of the aspects you mention, called Aerostrike. The best way I can describe it is "SC2-meets-DotA", although it is for the most part a stategy game with some Hero Battle elements thrown in (and some say it also has a bit of Tug-of-War). However, there are no heroes, jungles or items, just standard units (with one for each race that can resemble a hero to a degree, but are still "normal" units nonetheless), constant waves of ground units (creeps), various unit-specific and race-specific upgrades, and some other misc. features, like the mini bosses that spawn after some time. Also, players can build units of any race at any time
Its currently available in the NA and EU servers, in case you might want to check it out. It's still in Open Beta, so things can change or suddenly break to be fixed later, and it can take a while to get a game going due to unpopularity
@Sovern: Go
This exact concept was rounding up in my head for a while, I was thinking about indirect control unit groups and the hero - leader. For example, you control the hero but every unit you will add in his squad controlled by AI and you only have like 2 buttons in your hero command card "engage" or "defencive stance" which determine the AI behaviour. So this units will be like substitution for classic dota items. I think that concept has a potential, but unfortunately that will be very time consuming map to develop.
I agree with you guys. The time necessary needed to make a map like this would be long but I think that it would be worth it.
Some may think that microing small forces of units is exhausting but others (high level SC2 players generally speaking) are used to it and for us, we find it very rewarding.
Someone mentioned Aoen of Storm but I was talking about specifically, a squad based game (no heroes) in which you micro a squad of units of your choice (say, 8 marines or any other unit of choice) and of which your squad has 3 main ability's a long with a passive.
There would be a big emphasis on strategy unlike Marine Arena, in which you could either spend minerals on buying stronger lane "creep", buying upgrades for your squads such as +accuracy (Each squad of units could have their own set of attributes and a miss/accuracy function could be added.), +Attack Speed, +Armor, etc, a long with the ability to increase your defenses (towers) ability's such as attack damage, armor, or even increase your income over time via an upgrade.
The main emphasis would be on small (or even large depending on how many players engage each other) tactical battles and having good micro behind a sound strategy.....similar to SC2 without all of the base building. Individual unit micro would be key and losing a unit could cost you a set amount of minerals making each unit critical.
There could be 2 main jungle areas on both sides of the map (4 total) and killing a set "tier" of units (say.....BC's in one area) could unlock the ability to spawn them as creep for your team if you put the minerals into them.
There could be rocks blocking the two teams in the very early stages of the game from engaging each other while the creeps takes out the rock and clears a path to the other team (a tower could be placed in each teams main spawn area, along with in both jungle areas) setting up the game to have three stages (an early game where you would focus on keeping each unit alive while taking out a set tier of units so that you can A. Spawn them and/or B. upgrade your units. And/or C. Upgrade your income or defenses (towers).
The mid game would place a bigger emphasis on team battles and the late game would be when lots of heavy handed high tiered lane creep are being spawned and most players squads have become God like and big epic battles are taking place (think marines splitting away from storms, baneling bombs exploding over incoming units, and chargelots charging into a group of squishy HT's using their ultimate of slowing down the enemy while increasing attack damage by 3X) all occuring at once while lane spawned ultralisks are going after a tower.
Jungling could be very important as towers would be very potent and be capable of tons of splash damage yet your units could start out as practically garbage and then end up Godlike in the late stages in the game once that you've acquired enough upgrades for your squad units.
There could also be rune drops at key fighting locations (such as out on the sides of mid) just like there are in DOTA that spawn that increases your squads movement speed or attack damage.
Heck, lane units could even possibly upgraded just like they are in SC2 making strategy play an even more important role (think players investing into early late game unit upgrades preparing for the late game while taking a small risk or not taking a small risk depending if they want to play it safe while they're ahead and just get further ahead).
The skies the limit and I think the concept has a ton of potential.
My problem is that I find learning the SC2 editor to be very boring & mundane and I only like coming up with ideas (like most others more than likely).
I personally don't really see the difference between this and any other MOBA despite it being squad based. Which is pretty cool, but I think having squads is not such a game-changing difference that you have a ton of differences to other MOBA maps/games. It has a ton of potential, but so does every other MOBA game with their slight differences.
WC3 (and SCBW as well) had a lot of these Aeon of Strife variations out of which Dota originated, where you could upgrade the lane units, buy new lane units, do all sorts of shit. There is a reason why Dota stood out and is what it is now, because the gameplay works and has been improved very iteratively over the span of the WC3 lifetime, not only by the Dota creators but also by all the people who worked on other maps in this whole Aeon of Strife category, showing the Dota devs which gameplay elements are fun and which ones are not so fun. With that I don't mean to say that Dota is the end of the MOBA genre and there is no room for improving or changing it, I think it's just always fun to see where games came from and out of which ideas they originated, because there were a lot of smart people who thought about the issues before and could save me work to not make the same mistakes again and end up with a not so fun game concept :)
As for your last point, very few people have genuinely fun by just learning. If you detach the process of learning from the content and purpose of what you have learned it becomes quite clear that the process isn't very fun. Learning is tedious and boring. Learning something ultimately means getting more freedom to do what you want to do though, because you get lifetimes worth of knowledge and work from other people out of it. Learning something can "streamline" your imagination, since you don't waste time imagining things by yourself that probably won't work in the way you imagined and are worthless, and instead gives you room to imagine other things that are in the bounds of what other people have imagined before but still go into a new direction.
You clearly have a lot of cool ideas and passion thinking about game design, but it will be hard and would be relying on pure chance to just stop there and hope to get something out of writing a text about it. I hope you don't stop there, we always need more people!
You make a very good point about most learning not being fun. The only time that I ever had fun learning was through actual doing (Photography is primarily learnt through "doing" which is why I love it so much.) I will continue to be involved with the SC2 editor and learn it in my free time and treat game design as a hobby. I doubt that it will ever go past a hobby though as I will be making games that I think would be fun instead of trying to appeal to the masses (The COD series a long with most mainstream titles have turned game design more into a business design more than anything else).
With that being said, I have a few really cool ideas for this mod and will continue to work on it in my free time and continue to learn the editor.
@Sovern: Go
That's awesome!
If you have any questions about how to accomplish something come into the #sc2mapster IRC channel on freenode, there are always people around and usually at least some are active in the chat at any time and happy to help with problems regarding the editor.