@FreezingAcidRain: Go The Choker was replaced by the Defiler. The Choker is now a special strain of Infestor that can be spawned by the Tiamat brood. It was never a great unit by itself and with Vipers coming up in HoTS the Choker's main ability was pointless.
HoTS is increasing the number of free units Zerg can produce. I feel there's no need to boost it even more.
Why exactly change the Virophage to 4x4 footprint?
With Tempests there will be no need for a "yamato" ability.
Carrier DPS is already very high, And giving it a bonus vs armored overlaps wit the other ships. This isn't the Carrier's role.
That seems op vs ground while extremely weak vs air. I gave it a +2 shield armor upgrade, let's see how it goes.
Attack while moving is something I'm willing to try, maybe even without upgrades.
I'm waiting for HoTS for new Queen models, but a Queen morph would need more different abilities/role.
The Roach's tanking is already pretty good, with the ability to regenerate quickly while burrowed, I gave them a damage bonus vs light so maybe they can fit a slighlty different role if players want to give up the standard upgrade.
Right now the option I think I can add for Zerg is a new Corruptor ability, to replace Corruption. It has to be a combat ability, but not one that causes damage by itself.
not sure i understand about the Choker, its a fun unit to use and it is very differerent than the viper. how is it not great?
as the Defiler is what replaced the choker and infestor i feel that for a faction the choker (with its abilities) should be part of a faction.
I dislike the destroyer, its a bit op in late games, specialy the knockback abilty that prevents all units from attacking and take damage for the entire army. health of 550 it almost imposable to kill this unit, when theres more than 12 not shur if there any way of winning.
Infestor and Defiler cannot be created for the aiur brood
breading mound appears to be white
Choker is the same as infestor, but can be warped in. why the model of a choker?
@FreezingAcidRain: Go The tentacle ability overlaps with the Viper's Abduct, but Abduct has a better mechanic. The Spawn Broodlings ability was never meant to be there, it was op compared to SC2 standards and there was no need for even more Broodlings in the game. So the Choker is a "special" Infestor with more life for now.
The Destroyer had been hard to balance so far. I may have to remove that ability. I still have to find a specific role for it.
Thanks for the reports. I knew about the Breeding Mound, I realized I forgot to update the dependencies in the mod.
@morgoth780: Go That's a possible option, but would such an ability be used when Zerg have access to Fungal Growth? It has to target a single unit like Corruption so maybe only slow attack and movement isn't enough? Well, I'm just theorycrafting here, this ability would operate on a cooldown instead of energy so it may be of some use.
@Trieva: Go You have no idea how much I need testing, there's a whole lot of units and abilities I need to make as balanced as possible. I already posted on that thread, thanks.
"HoTS is increasing the number of free units Zerg can produce. I feel there's no need to boost it even more."
ok, but which units?
"The Spawn Broodlings ability was never meant to be there. it was op compared to SC2 standards and there was no need for even more Broodlings in the game"
so the starcraft 1 queen was op? what about the yammoto cannon? is that op as well? the "Spawn Broodlings ability" was nice to counter protoss archons, or templars
anyways the tentacle ability gave me an idea, what about having a split option ability for the infestor for using mind control or the tentacle abilty.
abduct: bring unit to point A to point B in a flash, similar to blink. can be applied to any singular unit.
Tentacle ability: randomly targets 2 units, damages the units until it is dead or infestor dies, brings it "slowly" to where the infestor is (good for zerglings as it breaks up death balls), has no cost, can only target ground units (not sure if it can targert massive units).
2- Spawn Broodlings automatically kills a target unit regarless of current life,shield or whatever. Compare some SC1 and SC2 spells, like EMP and you will see all casters are "nerfed" now. In SC1 casters were totally unbalanced if you calculate how much they cost and how much they could cripple your opponent or buff your own army. SC2 casters, with some exceptions of course, are more balanced from this point of view. This ability could 1-hit kill Ultras, Thors, Archons, Immortals, and with HoTS would be able to kill Swarm Hosts, Warhounds. And at the same time still create a small distraction for your enemy.
3- I can't give a split option to Infestors as they are themselves optional. I understand the Tentacle ability has some different uses. I'd say more similar to Fungal than Abduct, but comparing to Infested Terrans + Fungal Growth + Neural Parasite the Choker wasn't as versatile and as unique. So I needed a new caster option. The Defiler was ditched in Baelrog brood and found little use, so I decide to promote it to the option to Infestors. And it still doesn't look as versatile as the Infestor.
Note that I use Blizzard's approach: "nothing here is final". As I receive feedback from players I change these things. There are already so many game-breaking units and abilities I have to pay attention. I know the idea behind this mod is "more is better", but sometimes I have to take a step back and remove things.
I know this would change regular SC2, but you could make fungal growth not affect massive units, and have the alternate corruptor ability be able to target massive units.
@morgoth780: Go That would be an interesting change. Making Fungal more useful against groups of weak units while this ability would be useful against single, powerful targets. I also have to take Ensnare into consideration, this ability is probably useless now compared to fungal growth.
The loss of the Lurker, and now the defiler not belonging specifically to the brood makes me a bit sad. I came up with a "Choke" Ability for the Choker, the ability causes the choker to fire up to 5 tentacles, which then stun the infantry unit they attach to, the units will then have a 5 sec timer until they begin dying.
Another idea was a thick fume, a modified version of the defiler's dark swarm. The ability would create a cloud of smoke(probably greenish like the smoker's fumes eminating from it's body) that would reduce all units in the cloud to 0 sight range, and serving as a LoS blocker.
@rickmary: Go I understand, Baelrog lost 2 important units. The Lurker was moved to be a base unit as I felt players could use a unit in place of the new Swarm Host for now, but their mechanics are very different, so the Lurkers will go back to a brood eventually. Your idea for the 'Choke' is mainly to add more targets to it, because the original ability causes damage until targets or Choker are dead.
Your 'Thick Fume' is close to the Viper's Blinding Cloud ;-)
I see... The idea behind my "Choke" ability was to be more effective against larger groups, while not copying the Viper's Abduct ability.
I have lots of opposition and must think of HoTS units now...
What about scrap both of my ideas, but create an ability that works as a hybrid between the Dark Archon's maelstrom and the Queen's(broodwar) Ensnare ability. Covering the units with a cloud/goo that stuns them, the choker would have to continually spray the goo/gas to ensure that it keeps going, the ability would last 30 sec or until the choker cancels/is killed. And another ability that only works while the choker is burrowed, letting him vent up toxic fumes to kill units but at the cost of blowing his location entirely(still requiring detection).
@rickmary: Go It gave me an idea. As Chokers are mobile burrowers, they could have an ability to create a "wall" made of gas to block vision. So lets say 4 or 5 Chokers could get closer to a siege line, create the wall, so the army can move in, denying long range attacks. But still this idea overlaps with Blinding Cloud and can be easily denied by an air unit or any other that gives vision through the wall.
Well, I'm writing down all ideas, for now they're not enough to "bring the choker back".
new zerg race: Meinhoff brood; includes hunterling, kaboomer, stank, choker, and Spotter. hunterling could replace roach, and spotters could come straight from eggs and overseers could be removed. colour should patch that as hybrids. also lurker do not have that darker colour look when hybrids is choosen
should gardians's attack do small amount of splash damage? that would fit as the green balls appear to explode
Hi, i hope you still working at the map, and if you allready got that idea, sorry!
What about an building of the zerg that creates something like the locusts?
@FreezingAcidRain: Go Yeah, right now the L2D units are spread, but it would be interesting to have them in a L2D themed brood.
I'm considering the splash damage for the Guardian. Thanks for reporting the Egg-Pop, I simply added it, from that campaign level where the huge queen pops the eggs, but if it's not practical to use it may get removed.
@Fireflychen: Go Why would they need it if they get Swarm Hosts? Believe me, Zerg can't have access to more spammable free units, they are very hard to balance.
What are the stats on raptor’s/glider lings? I think the choice of baneling and raptors should be removed and a zergling leap ability should be added. The ability could be added to the Jormungand Brood as they are advanced in ground forces
The other split abilities such as bileduct and anabolic synticesis I feel should be an upgrade included in a brood faction such as the Jormungand Brood or Surtur Brood (or Garm Brood as it’s known for its speed). The reasoning is roach’s speed is to slow that it dies before it can engage and falls way too far behind zerglings. For the ultralisk it does make sense when it has burrow charge
The Tiamet brood as it is specialized in space combat maybe have the ability to spawn brood lords straight from eggs?
@Irta643: Go The Kukulkan brood isn't interesting enough from a gameplay point of view because the only known "unit" that belongs to them is basically an infested dog, which is basically a Zergling in game mechanics. Let's wait for HoTS for some serious broods ;-)
Yeah, I've searched through scrapped abilities a thousand times, some of them are already in the game. Proton Charge is in my list of possible additions.
@FreezingAcidRain: Go Raptors were added as an option to Banelings because they are op if they don't cost gas. They have more life than Zerglings but if I remember right they have the same attack. No way I'm going to allow Zerglings to leap just after an upgrade. I know the unit isn't a good option to Banelings but I believe there wont be a good option before HoTS.
Ultralisks were already fast enough without Anabolic Synthesis and now with Burrow Charge this upgrade is indeed pointless., but since there aren't good options for Zerg right now I won't remove it. Bile Duct was an interesting idea but the Roach's upgrades are extremely useful so I didn't know how to add it, Glial Reconstitution seemed better than Tunneling Claws in this case. I wanted Roaches to have 3 upgrades instead of 2, with Tunneling Claws and Organic Carapace as separate upgrades as they should, this way I could place Bile Ducts as an option to Tunneling Claws only.
Broodlords straight from eggs? And what about Corruptors? It doesn't sound interesting to me. Making a unit have more than one tech path isn't what I've been adding to this mod.
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@FreezingAcidRain: Go The Choker was replaced by the Defiler. The Choker is now a special strain of Infestor that can be spawned by the Tiamat brood. It was never a great unit by itself and with Vipers coming up in HoTS the Choker's main ability was pointless.
HoTS is increasing the number of free units Zerg can produce. I feel there's no need to boost it even more.
Why exactly change the Virophage to 4x4 footprint?
With Tempests there will be no need for a "yamato" ability.
Carrier DPS is already very high, And giving it a bonus vs armored overlaps wit the other ships. This isn't the Carrier's role.
That seems op vs ground while extremely weak vs air. I gave it a +2 shield armor upgrade, let's see how it goes.
Attack while moving is something I'm willing to try, maybe even without upgrades.
I'm waiting for HoTS for new Queen models, but a Queen morph would need more different abilities/role.
The Roach's tanking is already pretty good, with the ability to regenerate quickly while burrowed, I gave them a damage bonus vs light so maybe they can fit a slighlty different role if players want to give up the standard upgrade.
Right now the option I think I can add for Zerg is a new Corruptor ability, to replace Corruption. It has to be a combat ability, but not one that causes damage by itself.
@SoulFilcher: Go
not sure i understand about the Choker, its a fun unit to use and it is very differerent than the viper. how is it not great? as the Defiler is what replaced the choker and infestor i feel that for a faction the choker (with its abilities) should be part of a faction.
I dislike the destroyer, its a bit op in late games, specialy the knockback abilty that prevents all units from attacking and take damage for the entire army. health of 550 it almost imposable to kill this unit, when theres more than 12 not shur if there any way of winning.
@FreezingAcidRain: Go The tentacle ability overlaps with the Viper's Abduct, but Abduct has a better mechanic. The Spawn Broodlings ability was never meant to be there, it was op compared to SC2 standards and there was no need for even more Broodlings in the game. So the Choker is a "special" Infestor with more life for now.
The Destroyer had been hard to balance so far. I may have to remove that ability. I still have to find a specific role for it.
Thanks for the reports. I knew about the Breeding Mound, I realized I forgot to update the dependencies in the mod.
@SoulFilcher: Go
what about an ability that slows attack/movement speed?
@morgoth780: Go That's a possible option, but would such an ability be used when Zerg have access to Fungal Growth? It has to target a single unit like Corruption so maybe only slow attack and movement isn't enough? Well, I'm just theorycrafting here, this ability would operate on a cooldown instead of energy so it may be of some use.
@Trieva: Go You have no idea how much I need testing, there's a whole lot of units and abilities I need to make as balanced as possible. I already posted on that thread, thanks.
@SoulFilcher: Go
"HoTS is increasing the number of free units Zerg can produce. I feel there's no need to boost it even more." ok, but which units?
"The Spawn Broodlings ability was never meant to be there. it was op compared to SC2 standards and there was no need for even more Broodlings in the game"
so the starcraft 1 queen was op? what about the yammoto cannon? is that op as well? the "Spawn Broodlings ability" was nice to counter protoss archons, or templars
anyways the tentacle ability gave me an idea, what about having a split option ability for the infestor for using mind control or the tentacle abilty.
abduct: bring unit to point A to point B in a flash, similar to blink. can be applied to any singular unit.
Tentacle ability: randomly targets 2 units, damages the units until it is dead or infestor dies, brings it "slowly" to where the infestor is (good for zerglings as it breaks up death balls), has no cost, can only target ground units (not sure if it can targert massive units).
Tentacle ability and Abduct; Applies and Oranges
@FreezingAcidRain: Go
1- Locusts. Locusts everywhere...
2- Spawn Broodlings automatically kills a target unit regarless of current life,shield or whatever. Compare some SC1 and SC2 spells, like EMP and you will see all casters are "nerfed" now. In SC1 casters were totally unbalanced if you calculate how much they cost and how much they could cripple your opponent or buff your own army. SC2 casters, with some exceptions of course, are more balanced from this point of view. This ability could 1-hit kill Ultras, Thors, Archons, Immortals, and with HoTS would be able to kill Swarm Hosts, Warhounds. And at the same time still create a small distraction for your enemy.
3- I can't give a split option to Infestors as they are themselves optional. I understand the Tentacle ability has some different uses. I'd say more similar to Fungal than Abduct, but comparing to Infested Terrans + Fungal Growth + Neural Parasite the Choker wasn't as versatile and as unique. So I needed a new caster option. The Defiler was ditched in Baelrog brood and found little use, so I decide to promote it to the option to Infestors. And it still doesn't look as versatile as the Infestor.
Note that I use Blizzard's approach: "nothing here is final". As I receive feedback from players I change these things. There are already so many game-breaking units and abilities I have to pay attention. I know the idea behind this mod is "more is better", but sometimes I have to take a step back and remove things.
@SoulFilcher: Go
I know this would change regular SC2, but you could make fungal growth not affect massive units, and have the alternate corruptor ability be able to target massive units.
@morgoth780: Go That would be an interesting change. Making Fungal more useful against groups of weak units while this ability would be useful against single, powerful targets. I also have to take Ensnare into consideration, this ability is probably useless now compared to fungal growth.
The loss of the Lurker, and now the defiler not belonging specifically to the brood makes me a bit sad. I came up with a "Choke" Ability for the Choker, the ability causes the choker to fire up to 5 tentacles, which then stun the infantry unit they attach to, the units will then have a 5 sec timer until they begin dying.
Another idea was a thick fume, a modified version of the defiler's dark swarm. The ability would create a cloud of smoke(probably greenish like the smoker's fumes eminating from it's body) that would reduce all units in the cloud to 0 sight range, and serving as a LoS blocker.
@rickmary: Go I understand, Baelrog lost 2 important units. The Lurker was moved to be a base unit as I felt players could use a unit in place of the new Swarm Host for now, but their mechanics are very different, so the Lurkers will go back to a brood eventually. Your idea for the 'Choke' is mainly to add more targets to it, because the original ability causes damage until targets or Choker are dead.
Your 'Thick Fume' is close to the Viper's Blinding Cloud ;-)
@SoulFilcher: Go
I see... The idea behind my "Choke" ability was to be more effective against larger groups, while not copying the Viper's Abduct ability. I have lots of opposition and must think of HoTS units now... What about scrap both of my ideas, but create an ability that works as a hybrid between the Dark Archon's maelstrom and the Queen's(broodwar) Ensnare ability. Covering the units with a cloud/goo that stuns them, the choker would have to continually spray the goo/gas to ensure that it keeps going, the ability would last 30 sec or until the choker cancels/is killed. And another ability that only works while the choker is burrowed, letting him vent up toxic fumes to kill units but at the cost of blowing his location entirely(still requiring detection).
@rickmary: Go It gave me an idea. As Chokers are mobile burrowers, they could have an ability to create a "wall" made of gas to block vision. So lets say 4 or 5 Chokers could get closer to a siege line, create the wall, so the army can move in, denying long range attacks. But still this idea overlaps with Blinding Cloud and can be easily denied by an air unit or any other that gives vision through the wall.
Well, I'm writing down all ideas, for now they're not enough to "bring the choker back".
new zerg race: Meinhoff brood; includes hunterling, kaboomer, stank, choker, and Spotter. hunterling could replace roach, and spotters could come straight from eggs and overseers could be removed. colour should patch that as hybrids. also lurker do not have that darker colour look when hybrids is choosen
should gardians's attack do small amount of splash damage? that would fit as the green balls appear to explode
queen's pop-egg is not pratical
@SoulFilcher: Go
Hi, i hope you still working at the map, and if you allready got that idea, sorry! What about an building of the zerg that creates something like the locusts?
@FreezingAcidRain: Go Yeah, right now the L2D units are spread, but it would be interesting to have them in a L2D themed brood.
I'm considering the splash damage for the Guardian. Thanks for reporting the Egg-Pop, I simply added it, from that campaign level where the huge queen pops the eggs, but if it's not practical to use it may get removed.
@Fireflychen: Go Why would they need it if they get Swarm Hosts? Believe me, Zerg can't have access to more spammable free units, they are very hard to balance.
Random Intrusion in this discussion, have you added the Kulkulan brood with the Roverlisks?
Kulkulan Brood
I know, the Brood was destroyed, but still =)
Edit: Have you seen this page? Abilities that never made it through, might bring some ideas.
Proton Charge looks quite interesting actually.
What are the stats on raptor’s/glider lings? I think the choice of baneling and raptors should be removed and a zergling leap ability should be added. The ability could be added to the Jormungand Brood as they are advanced in ground forces
The other split abilities such as bileduct and anabolic synticesis I feel should be an upgrade included in a brood faction such as the Jormungand Brood or Surtur Brood (or Garm Brood as it’s known for its speed). The reasoning is roach’s speed is to slow that it dies before it can engage and falls way too far behind zerglings. For the ultralisk it does make sense when it has burrow charge
The Tiamet brood as it is specialized in space combat maybe have the ability to spawn brood lords straight from eggs?
@Irta643: Go The Kukulkan brood isn't interesting enough from a gameplay point of view because the only known "unit" that belongs to them is basically an infested dog, which is basically a Zergling in game mechanics. Let's wait for HoTS for some serious broods ;-)
Yeah, I've searched through scrapped abilities a thousand times, some of them are already in the game. Proton Charge is in my list of possible additions.
@FreezingAcidRain: Go Raptors were added as an option to Banelings because they are op if they don't cost gas. They have more life than Zerglings but if I remember right they have the same attack. No way I'm going to allow Zerglings to leap just after an upgrade. I know the unit isn't a good option to Banelings but I believe there wont be a good option before HoTS.
Ultralisks were already fast enough without Anabolic Synthesis and now with Burrow Charge this upgrade is indeed pointless., but since there aren't good options for Zerg right now I won't remove it. Bile Duct was an interesting idea but the Roach's upgrades are extremely useful so I didn't know how to add it, Glial Reconstitution seemed better than Tunneling Claws in this case. I wanted Roaches to have 3 upgrades instead of 2, with Tunneling Claws and Organic Carapace as separate upgrades as they should, this way I could place Bile Ducts as an option to Tunneling Claws only.
Broodlords straight from eggs? And what about Corruptors? It doesn't sound interesting to me. Making a unit have more than one tech path isn't what I've been adding to this mod.