I tried the alternate zealot tech upgrade. It's... not that great. Whole point of charge is so that zealots are able to move in and actually get some damage in before they die. Without it, the zealots are unable to ever get close, and by the time they do, they're already dead or close to it, thus defeating any purpose of being a melee shield. I suppose another upgrade you could try would be the SC1 straight movement speed upgrade.
Also, regarding the lurker suggestion I had earlier to nerf the range increase from +3 to +2 - I stand corrected, it needs the +3, lol. Are widow mines really only 75/25 in the HotS game? Or is that just a guess? I figured they'd be a bit stronger, given their power and ability to completely obliterate armies or key units.
@Vultorask: Go Thanks, the zealo ability was suggested by a player, and sicne I didn't have other ideas I added it. Now we have to test it and possibly change it or replace it.
The cost for widow mines is based on the latest battle reports. I feel it's too strong now, but I read somewhere that blizzard is planning to nerf the damage.
Perhaps, an ability for zealots to enter a "Heavy Shield", in which they have a high armor rating on their shields, unless the enemy is attacking from within 2.5 range of the Zealot. However so that it doesnt overlap with the Immortal, weapons that do more than 20/25 dammage are only reduced to half their norm damage.
lol i was the one who suggested the upgrade. and yeah, i agree that it really sucks.
i like the increased armor suggestion, but i don't think you should add it where they just have increased speed; it's extremely similar to charge
@morgoth780: Go I agree, it's hard to come up with something that doesn't take effect duting the "charge" phase or something like that.
And it's hard to think of protoss tech options because they have only a few unit-specific researches, and the ones that belong to optional units dont count, so we are left with Charge, Warp Gate, Gravitic Booster and Graviton Catapult. Charge and Gravitic Booster already have their optional researches, and there's no way we can get something to replace Warp Gates so I'm left with Graviton Catapult, but what could replace it?
What do you think about a red laser that deals damage at biological enemy units with consuming energy for the medic and medivac?With the upgrade that must have researched to can active that ability.
Another shield ability for Zealots could be like the Iconus Guardian's shield effect from Sins of a Solar Empire. Essentially, the Zealot's shields will take a portion of the damage done to a nearby allied unit (usually another Zealot). So if a nearby Zealot takes 6 damage from an attack, 2 of that damage might go to another Zealot. This is especially useful against marines if shield upgrades are grabbed that would help mitigate the damage. The shield effect would be something that's passive but disabled when the Zealot runs out of shields.
Though if you're interested in a more offensive ability, perhaps they could get a splash ability that doesn't actually do damage, but instead it stuns all units in an arc in front of the zealot for a short period of time. Problem with that is that usually Zealots will die prior to that point especially against Terrans, but hey, it may be useful still.
Regarding the red laser... I assume you would not be able to have both the healing and the red laser active at the same time? Granted you'd run out of energy pretty fast even if you could have them both together, but a battle can end pretty quickly too, so... sounds like a cool idea, I'd just have it so that only one can be active at a time.
@DEFILERRULEZ: Go I don't think Terran need Medivacs and Medics to be able to attack. Medics are already an optional unit too useful for their tier, and Medivacs are "follow-marines-and-forget" so you don't want to spend your time managing them.
@Vultorask: Go I had one idea I'd rather keep for a more expensive unit. Basically one protoss unit (probably an infantry unit) would be able to deny life/shield regeneration (including heal) to the aattacked target. It would be useful against Roaches, Immortals and Terran Infantry supported by Medics/Medivacs. I don't know if that shield ability would be really useful, have you pictured it in a ladder situation? And it sounds hard to implement. (Unless the zealot is actually able to heal another unit's shields using it's own, which would make zealots OP).
In that case, it may be a good idea to apply that upgrade to the Sentry. Usually (or at least from what I've seen), people grabs lots of sentries. Their damage output isn't particularly good and is in fact hardly noticeable, however this type of upgrade would further make them a formidable opponent to marine/marauder/medivac. Though that might make the sentry a bit too strong against that combination. It would give greater point to disabling repairs to battlecruisers and thors though (and in HotS, the Warhound and Battle Hellions). Given that it is a single attack and that you really wouldn't want too many sentries though, I can see it working. By the way, would this include blocking the Queen's Transfusion ability or say a shield battery's shield regeneration?
Ooh, I got a great idea. Stick it on the Colossus! Or better yet, the Carrier. Totally needs it.[/sarcasm]
-
Something else - you made the Dragoon identical in stats to the Stalker. While stats between SC1 and SC2 are not the same, they are similar, and the Dragoon did have higher damage. So if we were to port the actual Dragoon straight over, it'd have 100 hitpoints, and its attack would translate to 10 damage w/ 20 versus armored (+2 per upgrade). The flipside is that it would be a slower attack than a Stalker, meaning that it's even less effective versus light targets but should be a little bit better against armored, especially once upgraded.
One of the issues with the Stalker is that its damage output isn't particularly great, so when you get a bunch of them, well... it's not nearly worth getting more than a dozen. However, it makes up for that in mobility, especially with Blink. My suggestion would be to alter the Dragoon to be like the SC1 version, except keeping it at 80 hitpoints rather than buffing it up to 100. This way, it would differ more from the Stalker in that its ability to raid would be nearly nonexistent, but (especially with its range upgrade), it'd prove to be a higher damaging ranged unit that's worth getting more than a dozen of. Of course, the other tradeoff is (due to the lower attack speed) it does less damage to light units, so against a mutalisk raid, it'd be a bit screwed (not that it already wasn't).
I agree with you about the Dragoons, Dragoons weren't designed around mobility, but rather to be like tanks, with highish health and powerful weapons.
Also, SoulFilcher, have you thought about my suggestion for an alternative to charge?
@morgoth780: Go Interceptor count highly boost the Carrier dps, because each interceptor gets damaga bonuses from upgrades. I don't feel that's what the Carrier needs. I was thiking about a special shield effect, something like the Immortal's hardened shield, but instead of reducing incoming damage to 10, it would reduce all ranged damage by, let's say 2 or 3, so carriers would be more effective against large groups of light units. What do you guys think?
@Vultorask: Go Yeah, I plan more changes to the Dragoon, but I also plan to remove them as a selectable unit and give them to some tribes, so Stalkers would only be avaiable to Dark tribes (sragas and lenassa).
Yes, I was thiking that ability should deny all types of healing/recovery, but only for less than a second, so in order to be useful the unit must attack constantly a target. It would work for a unit with a very short cooldown like zealots or sentries.
@rickmary: Go As I said in the other post it may be too hard to implement. I still have to try, but I don't have enough time right now.
SoulFilcher, you do realize that Shields don't regen in a battle? I don't know if this is possible with data work since I'm mostly a terrainer, but maybe if the targeted unit has shields, maybe it applies a debuff that prevents it from regenerating shields for the next <<x>> seconds?
Also, kudos on the carrier shield idea. You have finally a) allowed protoss to defeat terran MMM, b) given terrans a reason to create battlecruisers, and c) given zerg a reason to use hydralisks in WoL.
@SGTMeowmers9: Go I still have to think about it. I know shields take like 2 seconds to regenerate after the last damage, so such an ability would be more effective against roaches and MMM strategies, but in this mod Protoss has access to Shield Batteries too, so it wont be that useless against them. If I give this ability to a unit with a longer cooldown I can make it debuff the target for a longer time. The general idea here is that if you let this unit attack a target non stop the target wont heal in any way.
Well, if you say the carrier would be that good then I think I can add it as an option to the current upgrade, but I feel all players would select the shield.
@ARMofORION: Go That option for Observers is already in. I don't know if its a good idea to make Immortals attack air, and they don't have a specific upgrade so I can't really add an option. Probabilty-based abilities are not allowed, starcraft isn't a game of luck.
If Immortals had the ability to attack air, all I'd ever build are Immortals, Colossi, and Phoenixes. Now unless it plants itself into the ground for a few seconds and then becomes specifically an anti-air turret... actually, that sounds cool, lol. Would the carrier shield be an ability or passive? If it's passive, then it's pretty much is like the ultralisk upgrade.
Regarding the negate shield, what it could do is simply negate the next attack coming in and then it just goes on cooldown for say 5 seconds before being available again (obviously, this would be auto-castable).
@Vultorask: Go Yes, I always try to replace a passive stat upgrade with another passive stat upgrade, an active ability with another active ability and so on, so the overall microing needs stay the same. This is not totally true for units I know, but I'm planing changes to make the system better (Like Corsairs as the Phoenix option not Scouts). It is pretty much the Ultra upgrade but for shields, and hopefully it will save the Carrier from extinction lol.
Yeah, to make a good option to charge I need an active ability (with autocast) that has a short effect and a cooldown. Your idea sounds good and has all the requirements, so it may be a good one for us to brainstorm and balance.
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@rickmary: Go I don't know what could be causing it.
Well, I'm sure I will figure it out with some more searching around. In the mean-time could you PM me how to add hints/tips to a map?
@rickmary: Go Ok, now I found the new version. Does it have the tips?
So guys, any new aideas or suggestion for changes? Has anyone tested the new protoss tech options?
I tried the alternate zealot tech upgrade. It's... not that great. Whole point of charge is so that zealots are able to move in and actually get some damage in before they die. Without it, the zealots are unable to ever get close, and by the time they do, they're already dead or close to it, thus defeating any purpose of being a melee shield. I suppose another upgrade you could try would be the SC1 straight movement speed upgrade.
Also, regarding the lurker suggestion I had earlier to nerf the range increase from +3 to +2 - I stand corrected, it needs the +3, lol. Are widow mines really only 75/25 in the HotS game? Or is that just a guess? I figured they'd be a bit stronger, given their power and ability to completely obliterate armies or key units.
@Vultorask: Go Thanks, the zealo ability was suggested by a player, and sicne I didn't have other ideas I added it. Now we have to test it and possibly change it or replace it.
The cost for widow mines is based on the latest battle reports. I feel it's too strong now, but I read somewhere that blizzard is planning to nerf the damage.
@SoulFilcher: Go
Perhaps, an ability for zealots to enter a "Heavy Shield", in which they have a high armor rating on their shields, unless the enemy is attacking from within 2.5 range of the Zealot. However so that it doesnt overlap with the Immortal, weapons that do more than 20/25 dammage are only reduced to half their norm damage.
@SoulFilcher: Go
lol i was the one who suggested the upgrade. and yeah, i agree that it really sucks. i like the increased armor suggestion, but i don't think you should add it where they just have increased speed; it's extremely similar to charge
@morgoth780: Go I agree, it's hard to come up with something that doesn't take effect duting the "charge" phase or something like that.
And it's hard to think of protoss tech options because they have only a few unit-specific researches, and the ones that belong to optional units dont count, so we are left with Charge, Warp Gate, Gravitic Booster and Graviton Catapult. Charge and Gravitic Booster already have their optional researches, and there's no way we can get something to replace Warp Gates so I'm left with Graviton Catapult, but what could replace it?
What do you think about a red laser that deals damage at biological enemy units with consuming energy for the medic and medivac?With the upgrade that must have researched to can active that ability.
Another shield ability for Zealots could be like the Iconus Guardian's shield effect from Sins of a Solar Empire. Essentially, the Zealot's shields will take a portion of the damage done to a nearby allied unit (usually another Zealot). So if a nearby Zealot takes 6 damage from an attack, 2 of that damage might go to another Zealot. This is especially useful against marines if shield upgrades are grabbed that would help mitigate the damage. The shield effect would be something that's passive but disabled when the Zealot runs out of shields.
Though if you're interested in a more offensive ability, perhaps they could get a splash ability that doesn't actually do damage, but instead it stuns all units in an arc in front of the zealot for a short period of time. Problem with that is that usually Zealots will die prior to that point especially against Terrans, but hey, it may be useful still.
Regarding the red laser... I assume you would not be able to have both the healing and the red laser active at the same time? Granted you'd run out of energy pretty fast even if you could have them both together, but a battle can end pretty quickly too, so... sounds like a cool idea, I'd just have it so that only one can be active at a time.
@DEFILERRULEZ: Go I don't think Terran need Medivacs and Medics to be able to attack. Medics are already an optional unit too useful for their tier, and Medivacs are "follow-marines-and-forget" so you don't want to spend your time managing them.
@Vultorask: Go I had one idea I'd rather keep for a more expensive unit. Basically one protoss unit (probably an infantry unit) would be able to deny life/shield regeneration (including heal) to the aattacked target. It would be useful against Roaches, Immortals and Terran Infantry supported by Medics/Medivacs. I don't know if that shield ability would be really useful, have you pictured it in a ladder situation? And it sounds hard to implement. (Unless the zealot is actually able to heal another unit's shields using it's own, which would make zealots OP).
@SoulFilcher: Go
maybe an upgrade that increases the max interceptor count?
@SoulFilcher: Go
In that case, it may be a good idea to apply that upgrade to the Sentry. Usually (or at least from what I've seen), people grabs lots of sentries. Their damage output isn't particularly good and is in fact hardly noticeable, however this type of upgrade would further make them a formidable opponent to marine/marauder/medivac. Though that might make the sentry a bit too strong against that combination. It would give greater point to disabling repairs to battlecruisers and thors though (and in HotS, the Warhound and Battle Hellions). Given that it is a single attack and that you really wouldn't want too many sentries though, I can see it working. By the way, would this include blocking the Queen's Transfusion ability or say a shield battery's shield regeneration?
Ooh, I got a great idea. Stick it on the Colossus! Or better yet, the Carrier. Totally needs it.[/sarcasm]
-Something else - you made the Dragoon identical in stats to the Stalker. While stats between SC1 and SC2 are not the same, they are similar, and the Dragoon did have higher damage. So if we were to port the actual Dragoon straight over, it'd have 100 hitpoints, and its attack would translate to 10 damage w/ 20 versus armored (+2 per upgrade). The flipside is that it would be a slower attack than a Stalker, meaning that it's even less effective versus light targets but should be a little bit better against armored, especially once upgraded.
One of the issues with the Stalker is that its damage output isn't particularly great, so when you get a bunch of them, well... it's not nearly worth getting more than a dozen. However, it makes up for that in mobility, especially with Blink. My suggestion would be to alter the Dragoon to be like the SC1 version, except keeping it at 80 hitpoints rather than buffing it up to 100. This way, it would differ more from the Stalker in that its ability to raid would be nearly nonexistent, but (especially with its range upgrade), it'd prove to be a higher damaging ranged unit that's worth getting more than a dozen of. Of course, the other tradeoff is (due to the lower attack speed) it does less damage to light units, so against a mutalisk raid, it'd be a bit screwed (not that it already wasn't).
@Vultorask: Go
I agree with you about the Dragoons, Dragoons weren't designed around mobility, but rather to be like tanks, with highish health and powerful weapons. Also, SoulFilcher, have you thought about my suggestion for an alternative to charge?
@morgoth780: Go Interceptor count highly boost the Carrier dps, because each interceptor gets damaga bonuses from upgrades. I don't feel that's what the Carrier needs. I was thiking about a special shield effect, something like the Immortal's hardened shield, but instead of reducing incoming damage to 10, it would reduce all ranged damage by, let's say 2 or 3, so carriers would be more effective against large groups of light units. What do you guys think?
@Vultorask: Go Yeah, I plan more changes to the Dragoon, but I also plan to remove them as a selectable unit and give them to some tribes, so Stalkers would only be avaiable to Dark tribes (sragas and lenassa).
Yes, I was thiking that ability should deny all types of healing/recovery, but only for less than a second, so in order to be useful the unit must attack constantly a target. It would work for a unit with a very short cooldown like zealots or sentries.
@rickmary: Go As I said in the other post it may be too hard to implement. I still have to try, but I don't have enough time right now.
@SoulFilcher: Go
SoulFilcher, you do realize that Shields don't regen in a battle? I don't know if this is possible with data work since I'm mostly a terrainer, but maybe if the targeted unit has shields, maybe it applies a debuff that prevents it from regenerating shields for the next
<<x>>seconds?Also, kudos on the carrier shield idea. You have finally a) allowed protoss to defeat terran MMM, b) given terrans a reason to create battlecruisers, and c) given zerg a reason to use hydralisks in WoL.
Ideas for some Toss tech options:
The Carrier idea would work nicely, making it a tank-like air unit v.s. making it a glass cannon.
Observer: Increased speed or increased sight range.
Immortal (If it becomes stand-alone) increased damage or ability to attack air, but at reduced damage
Zealot: Charge or Precognition (Has a chance to negate damage)
@SGTMeowmers9: Go I still have to think about it. I know shields take like 2 seconds to regenerate after the last damage, so such an ability would be more effective against roaches and MMM strategies, but in this mod Protoss has access to Shield Batteries too, so it wont be that useless against them. If I give this ability to a unit with a longer cooldown I can make it debuff the target for a longer time. The general idea here is that if you let this unit attack a target non stop the target wont heal in any way.
Well, if you say the carrier would be that good then I think I can add it as an option to the current upgrade, but I feel all players would select the shield.
@ARMofORION: Go That option for Observers is already in. I don't know if its a good idea to make Immortals attack air, and they don't have a specific upgrade so I can't really add an option. Probabilty-based abilities are not allowed, starcraft isn't a game of luck.
If Immortals had the ability to attack air, all I'd ever build are Immortals, Colossi, and Phoenixes. Now unless it plants itself into the ground for a few seconds and then becomes specifically an anti-air turret... actually, that sounds cool, lol. Would the carrier shield be an ability or passive? If it's passive, then it's pretty much is like the ultralisk upgrade.
Regarding the negate shield, what it could do is simply negate the next attack coming in and then it just goes on cooldown for say 5 seconds before being available again (obviously, this would be auto-castable).
@Vultorask: Go Yes, I always try to replace a passive stat upgrade with another passive stat upgrade, an active ability with another active ability and so on, so the overall microing needs stay the same. This is not totally true for units I know, but I'm planing changes to make the system better (Like Corsairs as the Phoenix option not Scouts). It is pretty much the Ultra upgrade but for shields, and hopefully it will save the Carrier from extinction lol.
Yeah, to make a good option to charge I need an active ability (with autocast) that has a short effect and a cooldown. Your idea sounds good and has all the requirements, so it may be a good one for us to brainstorm and balance.