SC2Mapster

Another two issues:

Terran SCV's has the option to build an Pylon Emplacement, but it doesn't have any use.

The other was a weird bug. After select the faction Moebius Foundation, in the supply depot, appears the option to select Tosh Pirates faction.

@nolanstar: Go Yeah, Tal'darim has a lot of replacements already. I was alrady planning to use the Servitor as a replacement for High Templar, I have to think about Fenix though.

If I ever decide to use the Avenger t will probably be unlocked by both Templar and Khalai. The scout was changed to replace Oracles for Templar and Tal'darim. Now Arbiters replace Void Rays for Templar. This change was made cost unit cost/supply/build time, and so that I could replace the oracle for these two tribes. The Warden is too big of a unit and considering it builds drones I feel it's a better replacement for Carriers.

@Celulariq: Go I'll look into those, but some, like the Particle Cannon not disappearing on death, are caused by the models, and I need time to rework them. I don't understand what you mean by Battlefield Awareness, that is a Terran upgrade, not protoss.

The pylon thing for moebius is there as a test, sorry that it doesn't do anything yet, but my idea is to allow warping.

@SoulFilcher: Go

Lol, you're right, i was confused, sorry.

Great to see this mod being worked on in full swing again! I need to play through a lot more before making comments, but it's great to see the protoss having so many fairly distinct options now.

Are you moving away from spawning heroes? I noticed my favorite, Raynor, is gone, and it would have been cool to be able to spawn units like Alarak, especially now that more or less every major faction from the games was represented with a hero.

Keep up the great work, I'll post up more thoughts once I can run through more factions!

@RezE11even: Go Yeah! Go play! Protoss went from worst to best race in terms of faction organization and content so fast, I wish it had been this easy for Zerg in HotS. And yes, my plan is to move away from heroes.

Overhauling time people! With the protoss tribes getting into shape so fast we need to do the same for terran and zerg!

@SoulFilcher: Go

Aww, I liked some of the heroes, do we have to get rid of them? While I do understand the concern about turning the game into warcraft 3 which was totally hero centric and I didn't like it, I don't think they should be completely scrapped.

Maybe we can make it into more of a choice?

For instance each race/faction can pick their flying spellcaster, and pick ground specialist already.. So maybe we can reduce it to a simpler choice to keep heroes in game but not make them take over everything...

Ultimate's: each faction has access to one game changing thing from 3 categories. 1) Heroic unit, a stronger than normal unit that can change the tide of battle. 2) Heroic Ability, a strong global spell/ability on a cooldown/energy 3) Heroic Buff, A minor buff that applies steady effect constantly to all ally units.

So regardless of faction choice players have access to constant strong bonus power with main army, periodic global strong power, or constant medium power with all army.

This way heroes don't have to take over everything, we can have some of the abilities from co-op mode introduced, and players have playstyle choices. It might be easier to keep it balanced if each choice had similar power levels, instead of some factions getting them and some not.

Just some thoughts, I love this mod. keep up the good work.

@nolanstar: Go It will be hard to limit terran to 5 factions, I think I can leave some extra in test mode. I want to remove these generic unit choices, in my opinion protoss is better now that those units went to specific tribes, and it also helps with weird cases, like faction units/upgrades that are meant to replace or add to unit choices (instigator, baneling upgrades, and so on).

I also want to remove Dominion's subfactions. Without heroes it makes no sense to have the Garrison anyway. I do want to keep the Archangel as a standard unit if possible, but I have to think about it. Overall some of your suggestions go with what those factions already have in the mod, for the others I have to consider one by one.

@zenerbufen: Go No, the game can't turn into WC3, but it can be too much like coop mode, like you're suggesting, and that's exactly what I don't want to happen. But maybe I can add a "heroes mode" in lobby that keeps the heroes as they were.

@AlexO6: Go Replacing SCVs with mules would be confusing, I have no reason to do that. I like the idea of using the old Cyclone somehow, even if just a reskin.

I would love there to be a version of the game with the hero option! Having a single special commander unit really adds some flavor to the factions, and with rare exception they did not feel overpowered the way you had them balanced before. Plus it would always piss me off to no end when in most campaign missions you'd see cut scenes of the commanding unit *with* the player army and then as soon as control switched over to the player they would be gone, just to show back up at the end of the level like they'd been there the whole time kicking ass.

Anyway, been playing through what I can, seems like the updates have put a few bugs in the game:

TERRAN:

GENERAL

-Cancel button for SCV production at regular Command Center is gone

-Can still select Tosh's pirates at the supply depot, but only AFTER selecting your faction. You can access it from any supply depot that is not the one you originally chose a faction from. This disables ghosts for the game(nor are they replaced with specters).

-Firebat choice does not register, barracks still make marauders. Firebat upgrade appears so you can no longer upgrade marauders.

MERCENARIES Faction- Most Merc Compound units have cooldowns PLUS build times for single units, is this intentional? Should either be drop squads with cool downs or timed building, not both. As of now the following have both cooldowns AND very low unit limits for the entire game:

Merc Marine(war pig) unit limit of 3 for entire game(not 3 squads, 3 total marines)

Merc Marauder(Hammer) unit limit 2 for entire game

Merc Viking(Hel's Angel) unit limit of 2 or 3 for entire game

Merc Banshee(Dusk wings) unit limit of 2 or 3 for entire game

Merc tank(Siege breakers) unit limit of 2 for entire game

Merc BattleCruiser(Jacksons Revenge) unit limit 1 entire game(only one that makes sense IMO)

Whereas the following have either no cooldown or unit limit meaning i can make unlimited of them:

Merc reaper

Merc Medic

Merc Medivac

Merc Vulture

Merc Thor Ragnarocker(should probably add a limit to this beast)

Just a heads up so you can fix this, as I assume it's supposed to be either one way or the other. Having access to only 3 marines total for example is pretty useless, while things like the BC, the Thor, and even the Siege breakers i could see having strict limits on.

-Just a suggestion, but perhaps make them Mira's Marauders? If you've merged Tosh with Raynor it seems silly to have his Merc Contact guy be the header for this group. On the plus side all of the weapon upgrades seem to work for this faction now, I remember it was messed up for a long time with the upgrades not registering for the mercs, or doubling up, bla bla.

KEL MORIAN Combine-

No specific bugs noticed outside of the standard terran bugs for this particular faction, just feels a bit under developed so far. They are a great faction though, definitely keep them.

Looking forward to having the herc for these guys.

A hero firebat (Gui Montag) could be fun.

Any thought of putting miners back with these guys in some way? Really does fit the lore well. Maybe a timed calldown from a command center, like mules(in addition to mules, not in place of) where for whatever energy you get 4 miners for 30 seconds to increase productivity, they autocast their ability instead of manual control like the Colonists.

Raynor's Raiders-

No specific bugs but merging with Tosh has really nuetered these guys. No more Raider unit, no more Hyperion call down, and most importantly no more Jim Raynor! Lots of cool possibilities with this faction, should really stand out, hope you bring some of their old options back.

Dominion- Same as above, no bugs but it seems you've already removed most of what made this unique. Kind of bummed because while you are working on it, at current it's pretty pointless to play as most of the terran factions.

COLONISTS! Seems like you deleted everything here, I REALLY hope you keep these guys as they are extremely unique and were awesome to play as.

More when I can! Keep up the great work.

@RezE11even: Go

Well, If the heroes do get removed, and we the community decide we like them.. someone could always use this as a dependency and build another mod on top of it.. SC Expanded, EXPANDED!

"No, the game can't turn into WC3, but it can be too much like coop mode, like you're suggesting, and that's exactly what I don't want to happen. But maybe I can add a "heroes mode" in lobby that keeps the heroes as they were."

my point isn't to turn it into WC3, or co-op mode, but drop a few element from those into expended like that you already have done to some extent.. but just be more systematic about it.. so that all the factions don't get heroes by default.. but you can choose to have one if you want.. in exchange for giving up something else.. much like the choice between spell casters.

maybe just SOME of the factions have an 'enable hero' research option, but it is a tough choice to make because to gain the hero (single unit only) they have to give up something else. (power? normal unit? faction trait? upgrades?)

heroes should be more of a niche pick anyways, lose some over all power, to get some situational abilities and a 'tough' unit that can help you deal with pesky problem units, with the trade off that having one reduces your overall armys power. There might be certain situations they help with, or a few plays they synergism with, but we don't want them to be I win button, or for people to think they are required. They are also concentrated their power into single unit. pop that unit and the hero using player looses lots of power till it gets back.

As long as we don't have to get a hero at the start of the game and run around leveling it up if we want to have a hope at standing a chance.

@RezE11even: Go I updated it today and those should be fixed. The mercs should be Mira's Marauders, I added their symbol but for some reason forgot to change the name and the alert sound, these should be fixed now.

I've been thinking about a unit I tried to add in the early days of this mod, the Mining Bot. It did what the Miners do now, but at least it would make more sense if they had timed life. I agree that Kel-Morian Combine needs more changes, but this is a faction that blizzard barely used along the years, so its hard to have things specific for them.

@zenerbufen: Go If I ever keep the heroes, they will be an option in the lobby, not in game to replace something else. And they definitely won't level up or anything like that.

@SoulFilcher: Go Thanks for the fixes! Looks like most things are good, though when you select Marauders for a unit option firebat pops up instead. Not sure if firebat selection is switched or accurate.

Here's my big Kel Morian Combine Suggestion post:

You're right that in actual gameplay we've seen very little of the Kel Morians, but that hasn't stopped you before, just look at how crazy and mindblowing you made the colonists faction for example. Between unused units and Kel Morian lore there's plenty that could be done. Obviously they have a focus on mining and being pirates, so why not combine the two?

Some lore notes:

- Pirates and miners come together to form this resource hungry faction

-They painted their often cobbled together armor and equipment black

- Invented the spider mine and it's upgrade

- Had their own ghost program, had spies armed with nuclear detonators that would suicide if captured (!!)

Notable lore based units:

- Ripper (Marine Reskin in black with late game additional armor upgrade, only accessible after infantry armor 3 upgrade is completed, ( this would work or something close( for hero mode Raynor for Raiders should be the model from HotS Back in the Saddle] )

- Outrider (Replace reaper, light armored fast harass unit, focus on resource harass.. give a "Sabotage Mining" ability similar to the mineral freeze from protoss? Unit appearance can be something similar to Tosh Specter or this guy or even a black reskinned reaper, Outriders are noted as having a skull emblem

-Hammer Securities (Replace standard Marauders with the Hammer health/stats? Have increased cost, but their additional resources balance it out)

- Kel Morian Ghost (Replaces standard ghost, reskin with something fun, abilities include cloak, something like a theft ability, control target CC for 20 seconds or something and pilfer minerals, control target refinery and pilfer their gas, and SUICIDE NUKE! Make it smaller than standard nuke and a little cheaper, but after a delay the ghost explodes with a nuclear detonation! badass.)

- LAV - Light Armored Vehicle (replace hellion with the hellion with a gun turret, I think this was part of colonists for a while? give either this or laser drill take an upgrade to hit air)

-Vulture w/ cerebus mine

- Sloth - (replaces standard siege tank, has splash damage cannon attack. I know you remember these since you were working on another game with them!)

-Cerebus Pirate Ship (Replaces BC, has Electric field, can research Cloak, cloak costs 75 energy to cast)

Additional "makes sense" units:

-Mining Bot or Miner(call down ability, should be in addition to mules not instead of, increases rate of mineral gathering)

-Herc

-Laser Drill Tank (with either this or LAV an upgrade to attack air)

"Why the hell not" Unit? A dropship type thing that lays spider mines.

Plus keep the CC double SCV upgrade and the gas percentage upgrade and bam, Kel Morians. For a hero give them(because you definitely should do a lobby hero option!) Victor Kachinsky, a Warfield/Hammer securities reskin that has spider mines as an ability with cooldown. Across the board make the units kind of dark black, like the Tal'Darim of the Terrans.

What would this mean for this faction? Some really cool options. Openings could focus on light, fast, and cheap units like the vulture, LAV, and outrider for mineral harasses while you build up to massive resource intake in the mid game, then use those extra resources to mass the beefy Hammer Securities marauder and extra armor marine Ripper(they are noted as padding their armor, beefing it up sometimes in lore) for viable late game barracks use. Lots of mines and unique tank options add to the flair and possibilities of this faction. And seriously, suiciding theiving ghosts! What's not to love?

New update to fix several issues, and to add hero mode. This is just the first iteration, so be ready to find more bugs and imbalanced heroes.

@RezE11even: Go Thank you for such a detailed post about a faction. It was re-freshening to read about after so long... not thinking about anything new for them.

The Ripper doesn't feel as a big change from the Marine, I think all the renamed variants bring at least an ability change, and I'd like to keep the pattern. The Outrider kind of suffers from the same problem, it is very hard to think of a replacement for Reapers (instead of just adding more passives like I did) because Blizzard keeps changing them and giving them what should be exclusive to a faction, like this new version of the old bomb attack.

If I do that to Hammer Securities then we could just go doing the same for other mercs, and dismantle that faction, and I'm not sure I should do that. Also replacement units usually have the same costs and stats with different abilities, that wouldn't be the case here. The merc units are the only ones that focus on improved stats.

I think the HERC can be a good replacement for Ghosts, better than having "Kel-Morian Ghosts" in my opinion, but I could make use of these abilities.

I could add the LAV, but the problem with replacing the Hellion is the Hellbat. I don't know what to do with it (even for Vultures). And you also suggested Vultures, but they use the same "unit slot".

Yes, I wanted to use Sloths in another project, at some point I also planned them for SC Expanded, but back then I couldn't work on the model myself and the modeller that would make it for me never finished it, maybe I add it now. My original plan was to replace Thors with it, now I'm not so sure, replace Hellbats?

The Cerberus already replaces BCs and it can research the electrical field, I have to think about cloak, BCs got that new tactical jump, so maybe Cerberus needs a second ability too.

Your "Dropship with mines" is similar to something I have in mind: bring back the "mine drones" from WoL development, it would probably go to the Nomad though. The dark balck color theme is reserver for Moebius Core.

@Kanitala: Go Don't worry, I can work on that. First I need to decide how the unit will function.

@SoulFilcher: Go

In regards to Kel Morian factory units, I have your solution:

LAV replaces Hellion, Vulture w/ cerebus upgrade available replaces hellbat. Sloth should be a unit with decent splash damage, like the Vanguard from LOTV, since we're getting rid of the hellion, hellbat, and siege tank which all feature some splash. Laserdrill tank should stay more or less as is but with a range increase, with possibly an upgrade to hit air(either this or LAV should be given option to hit air). Ditch siege tanks, and up to you if you keep thor/goliath or ditch completely. Oh, and obvious keep mines because Kel Morians invented them.

I know the Ripper is very close to marine, its more for visual flair and a slight difference in nod to their lore of beefing up standard marine suits with extra padded armor. It would be cool to have it be a slightly different unit or a different ability than stim but obviously changing a marine too much can really mess with terran, so I figured why not a slight visual change with an armor perk to help distinguish the faction.

I based the units and their abilities on lore available about Kel Morians, even if you don't go with most of the units I think it's important to give units and abilities that drive home the pirate/miner combination, So things like the theft of minerals/gas and harassing mineral lines would be really cool to work in.

Another random thought, some kind of ability to construct or make collapsable rocks could be neat and fits the miner theme!

I have lots of ideas for other factions as well, when I get time I'll do up more faction suggestions.

Hi SoulFilcher,

Where can I find the most recent version of this mod?