I've been working on a map for nearly a year now that I really need some feedback on.
On NA: WW2 Diplo
On EU: WW2 Diplo EU
Introduction and Features:
This map is a general European Diplomacy map set in the WW2 Era. The base model is Diplomacy Infinity from SC1, however that was merely a starting point. From there I took the concept and made the map into what is really it's own animal.
However before I dig into that part let me give you an idea of just what was improved over Infinity:
-You no longer need to build next to cities, simply attack and capture them instead.
-You no longer need to mess around with cities to get the custom units you want. Instead just go to "Units" at the top menu bar and select which ones you want to use.
-Units are, in most cases, designed to reflect the realistic look and role the unit took in WW2. As such the British use the Churchill Heavy Tank and the USSR the T-34. The special units are spread across some 30 different nations, depending on which faction had the most effect on that nation. An example is: Romania gets the Flamenwerfer, Scotland the Scotish Pioneers, Italy the M.41 Anti-tank gun, France the M10 Tank destroyer, Morocco the M4 Sherman etc.
-Nations, in some cases, have multiple specials now.
Now why it is it's own animal:
-WW2 Diplo has "realistic" naval units modeled after WW2 ships. For instance the Battleship has a bridge, superstructure, 2 stacks and 3 tripple turrets. Model attachments were used to make these units (along with some 3d max work). However in the current NA version, the Light Cruiser (and soon to be every other ship) is made of models created from scratch. This is to reduce the memory leaks which are the main source of lag on this map.
-The map has the ability to sustain, at a playable level, far more units and models on the map at the same time than other maps, and with each lag improvement that amount goes up. This is due to several lag-reducing tricks I ran across making my FPS engine, as well as tips and information I found out from others I chatted with. The more units that are custom modeled, the better the lag will get do to the lower amount of overlapping meshes.
-WW2 Diplo is the only real broad strategy map (that actually works) in Starcraft 2. As such armies tend to be rather big. The map does pretty well even with 500 units on the map as long as a few issues are avoided (soon to be fixed with custom models).
-WW2 Diplo is the first map on SC2 to use what I like to call: The "Starcraft 2 Amhibous System". I have a guide on SC2mapster with a video on how to make it. This is the only real option for an amphibous system. As it is the simplest as well as least lag-inducing option for faking water in starcraft 2. Its similar to the old Rise of Nations water system (which can in fact be made exactly in SC2, much to my surprise).
-WW2 Diplo has a more extensive Diplomacy interface and options than most other sc2 maps of it's type.
-WW2 Diplo is one of the first maps to utilize the platoon system, which I first saw in NewWorld's Generals of WW2.
Gameplay:
The gameplay of WW2 Diplo revolves around broad strategy, diplomacy, and knowledge of the game. This map is designed to give experienced players the edge. There are a lot of subtle things in this game that can have a large effect on gameplay. And am experienced player playing a tiny nation can, more often than not, beat a newer player playing a large nation. Needless to say battles between 2 experienced players are sheer bloodbaths lasting, in some (rare) cases, for a few hours.
The sort of play you will see from experienced players includes: Utilization of rivers as natural defensive lines (like the Rhine); flanking an army by means of amphibous assaults (such as in Italy); Dynamic Army composition to gain advantage; Diplomatic backstabbing (no diplomacy game is complete without a good old backstab); Creating and destroying alliances to gain the advantagel; Posession of various Special Units can dramatically alter how an experienced player will build their army. A lot of early game objectives often include seizing certain special units before major war errupts. On top of all of that I have seen more than a few naval arms races (with the corrisponding wars and massive naval clashes).
I have found, much to my pleasure, that the strategies a player will chose for a nation very closely align themselves with the strategies that those nations would use in real life (or, in fact, have used). Germany and USSR often clash over who controls Romania and Poland (or the entire Balklands for that matter). Great Britian has to expand to the mainland in order to grow powerful enough to defeat a large land-based power. Britian also, in nearly every game, attempts to turn everyone against the largest European power, as European Hegemony has never been Britian's interest. Some nations become more reliant on diplomacy than others.
Feedback
I am not going to go over what I already know issues are as I would like players to try them and perhaps find a different viewpoint on the issues. The game, however, is simply too vast in scope and size to have everything perfect. And I've found sometimes imperfections are better than perfection.
The reception by the players whom I've run across has been both mixed and extreme. It really depends on whether or not this type of map fits a player's niche. If it doesn't, they really don't care to play it. If it does fit the player's niche though they, more often than not, tend to become diehard loyal fans of the map. On the latest Custom Map Spotlight blog there are 7 posts, in a row, about the need to feature WW2 Diplo. Only one of these is mine and 2 of them are from people I've never seen or heard of before.
I have a channel on NA named: Diplomacy. This is for all diplomacy-type maps. The overwhelming favorite tends to be WW2 Diplo although others, such as Diplomacy of War (Cerebrate) and Diplomacy Gold (Oblivion), are also popular.
The biggest issue this map has is not the lack of fans, its getting them all together at the same time to play the map. Its been buried down the list for it's entire life. Dispite this I am constantly running into new fans of the map. I have canceld this project twice, and twice I am so pestered not to stop the project I start working on it again. I'm hoping that, if this map were featured, the players who have been so loyal and supporting will finally be able to play this game on a regular basis. I have had more than enough statements from the fans on the subject of the popularity system. I wouldn't be sticking my neck out like this if it weren't for the fans. I have seen many of them quit SC2 because they can't find maps they want to play - Or, more exactly, they can't find lobbies with enough players to play the maps they want to play.
What I need:
-I need feedback on unit balance.
-I need feedback on gameplay. Please bear in mind that I have given up on trying to make it a popularity climber. The map is simply too extensive for that.
-I need feedback on bugs.
Anything would helpful.
One Note: There is a techtree rebuild inbound, of which previews are on Udmod.com (Cloud get your site to stay up >.>) If you catch me around I can give you links to the previews and pics etc. Before I finish that though I need to get these custom naval models finished so they won't cause memory leaks anymore >.>
This looks amazing. Its so amazing that the ships look bigger than entire cities! :D (I'm referring to the screenshot with Copenhagen in it)
What is the usual peak hour time for Diplomacy players to be online? It would be much more convenient for everyone if there is a scheduled time where everyone agrees to be online. I don't want to wait in a lobby if it doesn't fill up within half an hour.
Since I don't know if you are Europe or not (Im in Vegas) I would say around 5-6pm Pacific (GMT-8) in North America. I would assume someting like around 7 GMT but thats only a guess. I don't have the very latest builds with the new custom models on EU yet (Due to transaction issues, Blizzard was kind enough to convert my second Starcraft account over to an EU, however I had posted that BEFORE they locked my account and as such that map I cannot bring down) however that map is "stable" (just avoid overlapping models - like naval >.>). I'm currently in the process of replacing the overlapping models with brand new ones from scratch. The 2 biggest lag monsters, the Battleship and the Light Cruiser, have already been replaced on the NA version. If you want an update, here is what I'm doing right now:
VERY careful attention is being payed to not having meshes overlap more then nessesary. As such these new battleship models, although having a higher poly count, don't cause near the same amount of lag.
Given how much stuff I'm gonna have to custom model, I'm probably gonna end up publishing a *public* WW2 Dependency so I can save on raw map space.
Wow, you have created the whole europe map with all cities! This is quite interesting.
Are there hotkeys present to select all barracks or all factories? Like it was in RoN.
I think, ships could move more shippier, for example move only after they face the direction of move order. Or turn faster, or move while turning, dunno.
And i'd like to see howitzers to have attack animation from their turret, not driver's cabine.
And why do we destroy cities by attacking them? I thpught it will capture them.
"Are there hotkeys present to select all barracks or all factories? Like it was in RoN."
-I don't have that as it hasn't been requested often, however that is not hard to add. For the most part though I've got a giant list of things that need to happen with the map.
"I think, ships could move more shippier, for example move only after they face the direction of move order. Or turn faster, or move while turning, dunno."
-This hasn't been a really high priority for me, however that is also not too hard to fix. For the most part I think I need to increase the ship's masses.
"And i'd like to see howitzers to have attack animation from their turret, not driver's cabine."
-This is an actor issue I have not had too much luck with. In fact it haunts pretty much every unit like it, from the artillery to the AT guns to the AA guns to the ships. I really don't know what is going on. I've asked around but its looking like I'm out of luck on this one. I'll play with it more here soon, but first I've got to make more custom models to reduce lag >.>
"And why do we destroy cities by attacking them? I thpught it will capture them."
-If they are in fact dying its either a serious lag issue or an outright game glitch. Those cities/towns/capitals have a death prevention behavior that has always prevented that from happening before.
Hey, Focke, it's a cool tank! Where have you got this model? I'd so like to have it in my Civilization map. I'm creating ww2 units right now, and this tank seems to be just perfect as a tank. Can I somehow get this tank from you?
I personally made every bit of that model from scratch. Although I have a bud who is working with me on it.
I think we might be able to trade some stuff. Most of these models are still being made. Check the thread in the artist tavern for the full list of models we are making.
Maps on both EU and NA have been uploaded with "Stable" Versions.
The EU Version however is NOT "WW2 Diplo EU".
Blizzard assured me that would be taken down but it never was.
The actual map, which has had its localization issues fixed (I confirmed myself) is "WW2 Diplo Europe"
For some reason I still see more hours on WW2 Diplo EU when I have no control over that map.
Much of the lag has been fixed. The map is stable to play. It can still break down under extreme load but it can take a lot of punishment still. mostly what breaks is the special unit system.
------------------------
On another note: WW2 Diplo is going premium!
Yup, you heard right. We are making a brand new map from scratch combining the experience of several map makers including the 2 juggernaughts of World War 2 maps in StarCraft 2: FockeWulf and NewWorldOrder. We have been close and friendly contact on the games design and we may even be working together shortly as well :)
Here are some pic for previews of the exciting new map!
You may have noticed you were seeing a World Map and not Europe. Thats right, we figured out how to cram an entire world into a 256x256 and not have it look horrid! So me being the natural me I jump into the hole! Yes it is going to quite a project but stay tuned for updates!
WOW, its about time WW2 Diplo gets an update, so will the new map be Rise of the Riech? or will you first be uploading those models and gameplay updates on the original Diplo?
EDIT: whats up with the platoons? now we can only spawn single units ins
tead of platoons? whats up with that? the light cruiser model is epic but has no attack animation. maybe you can try changing platoons into squads? like this is the link :
Hey all,
I've been working on a map for nearly a year now that I really need some feedback on.
On NA: WW2 Diplo On EU: WW2 Diplo EU
Introduction and Features:
This map is a general European Diplomacy map set in the WW2 Era. The base model is Diplomacy Infinity from SC1, however that was merely a starting point. From there I took the concept and made the map into what is really it's own animal.
However before I dig into that part let me give you an idea of just what was improved over Infinity: -You no longer need to build next to cities, simply attack and capture them instead. -You no longer need to mess around with cities to get the custom units you want. Instead just go to "Units" at the top menu bar and select which ones you want to use. -Units are, in most cases, designed to reflect the realistic look and role the unit took in WW2. As such the British use the Churchill Heavy Tank and the USSR the T-34. The special units are spread across some 30 different nations, depending on which faction had the most effect on that nation. An example is: Romania gets the Flamenwerfer, Scotland the Scotish Pioneers, Italy the M.41 Anti-tank gun, France the M10 Tank destroyer, Morocco the M4 Sherman etc. -Nations, in some cases, have multiple specials now.
Now why it is it's own animal: -WW2 Diplo has "realistic" naval units modeled after WW2 ships. For instance the Battleship has a bridge, superstructure, 2 stacks and 3 tripple turrets. Model attachments were used to make these units (along with some 3d max work). However in the current NA version, the Light Cruiser (and soon to be every other ship) is made of models created from scratch. This is to reduce the memory leaks which are the main source of lag on this map. -The map has the ability to sustain, at a playable level, far more units and models on the map at the same time than other maps, and with each lag improvement that amount goes up. This is due to several lag-reducing tricks I ran across making my FPS engine, as well as tips and information I found out from others I chatted with. The more units that are custom modeled, the better the lag will get do to the lower amount of overlapping meshes. -WW2 Diplo is the only real broad strategy map (that actually works) in Starcraft 2. As such armies tend to be rather big. The map does pretty well even with 500 units on the map as long as a few issues are avoided (soon to be fixed with custom models). -WW2 Diplo is the first map on SC2 to use what I like to call: The "Starcraft 2 Amhibous System". I have a guide on SC2mapster with a video on how to make it. This is the only real option for an amphibous system. As it is the simplest as well as least lag-inducing option for faking water in starcraft 2. Its similar to the old Rise of Nations water system (which can in fact be made exactly in SC2, much to my surprise). -WW2 Diplo has a more extensive Diplomacy interface and options than most other sc2 maps of it's type. -WW2 Diplo is one of the first maps to utilize the platoon system, which I first saw in NewWorld's Generals of WW2.
Gameplay:
The gameplay of WW2 Diplo revolves around broad strategy, diplomacy, and knowledge of the game. This map is designed to give experienced players the edge. There are a lot of subtle things in this game that can have a large effect on gameplay. And am experienced player playing a tiny nation can, more often than not, beat a newer player playing a large nation. Needless to say battles between 2 experienced players are sheer bloodbaths lasting, in some (rare) cases, for a few hours.
The sort of play you will see from experienced players includes: Utilization of rivers as natural defensive lines (like the Rhine); flanking an army by means of amphibous assaults (such as in Italy); Dynamic Army composition to gain advantage; Diplomatic backstabbing (no diplomacy game is complete without a good old backstab); Creating and destroying alliances to gain the advantagel; Posession of various Special Units can dramatically alter how an experienced player will build their army. A lot of early game objectives often include seizing certain special units before major war errupts. On top of all of that I have seen more than a few naval arms races (with the corrisponding wars and massive naval clashes).
I have found, much to my pleasure, that the strategies a player will chose for a nation very closely align themselves with the strategies that those nations would use in real life (or, in fact, have used). Germany and USSR often clash over who controls Romania and Poland (or the entire Balklands for that matter). Great Britian has to expand to the mainland in order to grow powerful enough to defeat a large land-based power. Britian also, in nearly every game, attempts to turn everyone against the largest European power, as European Hegemony has never been Britian's interest. Some nations become more reliant on diplomacy than others.
Feedback
I am not going to go over what I already know issues are as I would like players to try them and perhaps find a different viewpoint on the issues. The game, however, is simply too vast in scope and size to have everything perfect. And I've found sometimes imperfections are better than perfection.
The reception by the players whom I've run across has been both mixed and extreme. It really depends on whether or not this type of map fits a player's niche. If it doesn't, they really don't care to play it. If it does fit the player's niche though they, more often than not, tend to become diehard loyal fans of the map. On the latest Custom Map Spotlight blog there are 7 posts, in a row, about the need to feature WW2 Diplo. Only one of these is mine and 2 of them are from people I've never seen or heard of before.
I have a channel on NA named: Diplomacy. This is for all diplomacy-type maps. The overwhelming favorite tends to be WW2 Diplo although others, such as Diplomacy of War (Cerebrate) and Diplomacy Gold (Oblivion), are also popular.
The biggest issue this map has is not the lack of fans, its getting them all together at the same time to play the map. Its been buried down the list for it's entire life. Dispite this I am constantly running into new fans of the map. I have canceld this project twice, and twice I am so pestered not to stop the project I start working on it again. I'm hoping that, if this map were featured, the players who have been so loyal and supporting will finally be able to play this game on a regular basis. I have had more than enough statements from the fans on the subject of the popularity system. I wouldn't be sticking my neck out like this if it weren't for the fans. I have seen many of them quit SC2 because they can't find maps they want to play - Or, more exactly, they can't find lobbies with enough players to play the maps they want to play.
What I need:
-I need feedback on unit balance. -I need feedback on gameplay. Please bear in mind that I have given up on trying to make it a popularity climber. The map is simply too extensive for that. -I need feedback on bugs.
Anything would helpful.
One Note: There is a techtree rebuild inbound, of which previews are on Udmod.com (Cloud get your site to stay up >.>) If you catch me around I can give you links to the previews and pics etc. Before I finish that though I need to get these custom naval models finished so they won't cause memory leaks anymore >.>
Thanks!
Reserved for Pictures:
This looks amazing. Its so amazing that the ships look bigger than entire cities! :D (I'm referring to the screenshot with Copenhagen in it)
What is the usual peak hour time for Diplomacy players to be online? It would be much more convenient for everyone if there is a scheduled time where everyone agrees to be online. I don't want to wait in a lobby if it doesn't fill up within half an hour.
@caparosmith: Go
Since I don't know if you are Europe or not (Im in Vegas) I would say around 5-6pm Pacific (GMT-8) in North America. I would assume someting like around 7 GMT but thats only a guess. I don't have the very latest builds with the new custom models on EU yet (Due to transaction issues, Blizzard was kind enough to convert my second Starcraft account over to an EU, however I had posted that BEFORE they locked my account and as such that map I cannot bring down) however that map is "stable" (just avoid overlapping models - like naval >.>). I'm currently in the process of replacing the overlapping models with brand new ones from scratch. The 2 biggest lag monsters, the Battleship and the Light Cruiser, have already been replaced on the NA version. If you want an update, here is what I'm doing right now:
http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i333/marshallwellington/Tiger2_1b.jpg
VERY careful attention is being payed to not having meshes overlap more then nessesary. As such these new battleship models, although having a higher poly count, don't cause near the same amount of lag.
Given how much stuff I'm gonna have to custom model, I'm probably gonna end up publishing a *public* WW2 Dependency so I can save on raw map space.
Wow, you have created the whole europe map with all cities! This is quite interesting.
Are there hotkeys present to select all barracks or all factories? Like it was in RoN.
I think, ships could move more shippier, for example move only after they face the direction of move order. Or turn faster, or move while turning, dunno.
And i'd like to see howitzers to have attack animation from their turret, not driver's cabine.
And why do we destroy cities by attacking them? I thpught it will capture them.
@Zolden: Go
"Are there hotkeys present to select all barracks or all factories? Like it was in RoN." -I don't have that as it hasn't been requested often, however that is not hard to add. For the most part though I've got a giant list of things that need to happen with the map.
"I think, ships could move more shippier, for example move only after they face the direction of move order. Or turn faster, or move while turning, dunno." -This hasn't been a really high priority for me, however that is also not too hard to fix. For the most part I think I need to increase the ship's masses.
"And i'd like to see howitzers to have attack animation from their turret, not driver's cabine." -This is an actor issue I have not had too much luck with. In fact it haunts pretty much every unit like it, from the artillery to the AT guns to the AA guns to the ships. I really don't know what is going on. I've asked around but its looking like I'm out of luck on this one. I'll play with it more here soon, but first I've got to make more custom models to reduce lag >.>
"And why do we destroy cities by attacking them? I thpught it will capture them." -If they are in fact dying its either a serious lag issue or an outright game glitch. Those cities/towns/capitals have a death prevention behavior that has always prevented that from happening before.
Thanks for your interest in WW2 Diplo!
Anyone have any more feedback?
Well I've got some more stuff:
The new unit in WW2 Diplo!
Hey, Focke, it's a cool tank! Where have you got this model? I'd so like to have it in my Civilization map. I'm creating ww2 units right now, and this tank seems to be just perfect as a tank. Can I somehow get this tank from you?
@Zolden: Go
I personally made every bit of that model from scratch. Although I have a bud who is working with me on it.
I think we might be able to trade some stuff. Most of these models are still being made. Check the thread in the artist tavern for the full list of models we are making.
Well WW2 Diplo now has an I that will fight you (still debugging part of it).
Also next major update the special unit system is being changed to a more user-friendly system :)
Also next major update the brand new custom modeled IS-2 for USSR will be in game :)
Just an update.
Maps on both EU and NA have been uploaded with "Stable" Versions.
The EU Version however is NOT "WW2 Diplo EU".
Blizzard assured me that would be taken down but it never was.
The actual map, which has had its localization issues fixed (I confirmed myself) is "WW2 Diplo Europe"
For some reason I still see more hours on WW2 Diplo EU when I have no control over that map.
Much of the lag has been fixed. The map is stable to play. It can still break down under extreme load but it can take a lot of punishment still. mostly what breaks is the special unit system.
------------------------On another note: WW2 Diplo is going premium!
Yup, you heard right. We are making a brand new map from scratch combining the experience of several map makers including the 2 juggernaughts of World War 2 maps in StarCraft 2: FockeWulf and NewWorldOrder. We have been close and friendly contact on the games design and we may even be working together shortly as well :)
Here are some pic for previews of the exciting new map!
You may have noticed you were seeing a World Map and not Europe. Thats right, we figured out how to cram an entire world into a 256x256 and not have it look horrid! So me being the natural me I jump into the hole! Yes it is going to quite a project but stay tuned for updates!
Working on basic UI Functionality. Should have an alpha version UI by the end of next week.
WOW, its about time WW2 Diplo gets an update, so will the new map be Rise of the Riech? or will you first be uploading those models and gameplay updates on the original Diplo?
EDIT: whats up with the platoons? now we can only spawn single units ins tead of platoons? whats up with that? the light cruiser model is epic but has no attack animation. maybe you can try changing platoons into squads? like this is the link :