The issue as I see it is that, if you don't rush for the outposts, you are at a significant disadvantage. It's unfriendly to noobs who (if they had gone through the tutorial) take the time to check out the shops. It's always a rush game at the start and any other strategy is inferior. Hostile turrets would nerf this rush strategy so other strategies are more competitive compared to the rush strategy
The issue as I see it is that, if you don't rush for the outposts, you are at a significant disadvantage. It's unfriendly to noobs who (if they had gone through the tutorial) take the time to check out the shops. It's always a rush game at the start and any other strategy is inferior. Hostile turrets would nerf this rush strategy so other strategies will be more or equally viable
Just to re-iterate myself, I think it's best to have mostly no targeting which emphasizes the idea we're driving somewhat automated weapons of destruction (which also makes playing the game easier). I do somewhat agree with Cap that having some control would be handy at times. That's what specific targeting weapons and tank abilities are for imo.
Can we agree, that we disagree? ;)
But talking about control: it's important to gain control of the barracks that used to belong to a player that left the game. You cannot sell or even destroy them, their troops are on the move command attacking nothing.
And talking about barracks: if you build barracks on the "other" side of the map, their troops will move back to the nearest outpost on the move command, not attacking. When they have reached the outpost they turn around and attack again.
Even in 1v1 I can't see a problem. Won't the engagement line reach the outpost at the same time?
Of course it's a balanced situation when both tanks arrive at the same time. That's was not was I was talking about, sorry for the confusion. I am talking about being first at the outpost and THEN someone on the other team reacts. Because when there is no opposition at the outpost I just walk past it and engage the opponents troops. They slow down, I get the outpost.
It's gotten a lot better now that you cannot leave the base early but you can still get enough of an edge, especially with the sprint ability against that "tank" starter tank (not the walker - sorry, I'm really bad with names, I just click the icons and off I am!)
I used to try to join the southern team, then zoom all the way out and rotate the camera to position myself as far north as possible. With the speed ability it was possible to shoot enemy troops right when they passed their own bunker. Good times!
@mOOhkOOh: GoThose turrets you can buy from base (that cost 1k and 2k minerals) are extremely effective early game because weapons for heroes aren't that strong yet. I captured all 3 outposts when the game started, tried to save up for better gear and actively supported my infantry. Then, Cap throws down a turret or 2 next to the center capture area (before or after he captured it). I spent so much time trying to take them down that he eventually captured the outposts and turned the table on me. I eventually lost the game.
That was standard game play on EU servers for quite a long time actually. Capture outpost, drop turret. It was even possible to put turrets on high ground spots which were only accessible by teleporting there. And once the turret was dropped, there was not enough space left for anyone else to blink there to destroy it. Was totally OP.
BUT! Now that the early income of outposts was nerfed so much it's not a viable tactic any more, at least in 3v3 and 4v4. Sure, the opponents are guaranteed to keep their outposts a little longer. But there is no way they will get the investment back, especially since they are basically donating 400 minerals to the other team's player who destroys the turret. And if it only was the turret that kept them the outpost, not their player skill, they in for a surprise once the turret pops because they not just behind in skill but now also in economy. gg.
If I do drop excess equipment in the base, could it be picked up by my teammates? I don't want my equipment to be stolen :P
Yeah, everyone can pick it up. Even enemies (I sometimes manage to steal (read: sell) something on the opponents base when I move in to destroy their barracks. It's super funny every time.
Oh now that you mention it, there actually is another bug I encountered while doing it: sometimes you can sell an item that was dropped by the opponent several times in their base. You get the minerals each time but also keep the item in the inventory.
Haven't been here for ages. Looks like this game getting more updates. Freddy, I am uploading high resolution multiple color and layout medals in PSD format. Maybe you want to implement this in the future - ranking update. I am doing various PhotoShop courses so think these files be value to you.
I don't play this game for a while now but I really think LaserTank needs to be fixed. It has 200 dmg/s which is false. A lasertank can kill a 5000 hp predator in a few seconds. I think it multiplies. Then after a armor change where you can upgrade to armor 8 or 9.5 it is very hard to kill a lasertank or DOOM. It is not one of the reasons i stopped playing but that bug was really annoying. All previous startegies used in the past stopped working when lasertank '200dmg/s and + armor update' was installed into a new patch. Is this fixed?
Did ViperEST invited any new players in our clan? My hard-drive was wiped out so I don't have a game installed but I might come back soon.
Freddy, where are you at with new icons? I will send you a private msg with a link to download medals (very good graphics)
Increase income - income is increased gradually and been tested in various ways.
Increase kill bounty - enemy PRO player kills 1-2 newbies in early game and a huge advantage to the enemy team. Game lost. you dont want to do that.
Make everything cheaper - people got use to the prices and you dont want to change that again. really hard to adapt again. I know that after Freddy changed prices a few months back some people left or stopped playing because of that.
Trieva - first of all i want to congratulate you for taking and wanting to assist to make this game better (i can read it between the lines). I am too fired up which put me into a capacity to help Freddy with various things i.e icons for weapons, weapons upgrade, stats, map or pure game ideas. my hard-drive was wiped out therefore i don't have the game anymore but i will install it in the near future and I still do care.
Increase income - i agree with you however if you increase income tier 1 or tier 2 weapons will not be bought at all which I and Freddy want to avoid. it is part of the game and there is no around it. Period... unless you have a pure new idea for us to re-consider....i am open for suggestions.
Increase kill bounty - you said you need more convincing evidence. Well I have the highest ranking of the game stats last time i checked (last time i played) which gives me an authority to give pretty good weight on various ideas about the game. i assisted freddy to create small parts of the game, make it better so i know probably alll strategies out there to win. i won battles that should be lost or surrendered therefore i know what i am talking about. SO. I take great responsibility stating the truth and facts that if you a PRO player kills 1-3 people at the start which is quite easy if you are pretty skilled you can get a better advantage (compared to know) and which assist you to win the game easier. i might be wrong but i played too many games to see this 'pattern'. you have an option to see it differently but i am just sharing information and personal first hand knowledge.
Make everything cheaper - you are an exception. you can but most people don't. i have 20 PRO players in my clan of Desert Tankbattle and 30% of them said they did not like the changes (price change) at all. you can ignore it of course but i am just sharing information.
I know that after Freddy changed prices a few months back some people left or stopped playing because of that. - refer to my previous paragraph.
P.S. Freddy - can you change the lasertank stats. it's too overpowered. the laser ability option is to OP. it has a bug of 200/dmg/s which has an error (it multiplies exponentially, not 200dmg/s) remove armor -1 and make it more a little bit more expensive.
Trieva, I don't mean to insult you, but your comments always give me the impression that you actually don't play the game a lot or don't really "get" it.
When i read "/mortar." I agree with you too. Trivial your comment about mortar conveyed a message to me that you probably need to play more and try other builds. Mortar is the only weapon that does not have a good use YET. You can of course use it but not 4 PRO vs 4 PRO. Enemy will eat you alive especially when all PRO's get Walker when they are extremely fast so mortar don't hit you at all.
Suggestion: play a bit more and try other techniques. Perhaps try to get lasers or rockets and constantly upgrade them to higher tier weapons. Focus on shield, armor and hp. it depends of your style of course....
If you want to get to the next level i suggest to watch your enemy and try combination getting extra speed, teleport, radar for 600. At certain times of the game it has an advantage and can get you a few extra kills easily which gives you an extra boost. try to buy them and different times. for example if your team is loosing you get lasertank + lots of armor and teleport. you try to kill them and teleport when you see you cant get them. enemy maybe weak (half half life) and you can kill them easily. you teleport and heal you go. furthermore, after 1 hour of gameplay troops armor and attack is very high that you can focus on barracks however make sure they are protected at all times and you might have a shot to win.
i haven't played for some time but if you see these people in your team listen for their advice: Vitalki, FlyHigh, ViperEST, Savage, Mion and Zeratul too. They play very good. Everyone has their own style so watch their replays and learn from them i.e. Vitalki has an amazing attack strategy, he kills very quickly and gets lots of kills in the early game. he loves to farm queens when he has an opportunity which enables him to get DOOM fairly quickly so then he destroys your base because his armor + hp too high (all your turrets will be destroyed soon). FlyHigh has a unique style as well (not sure if he plays haven't see him when I played).
How about giving us much more starting resources?
- giving more starting income makes tier 1 or tier 2 weapons pointless. if you want more money just get more kills. early kills is very important so your skill is highly evaluated at the start of the game.
Maybe killing queens, nydus canals, and zerg increases income:
- in other words it is called farming. farming is not main part of the game. it allows to make money but the current queen kill/reward ratio (in my opinion is perfect).
Then why not remove kill bounty from heroes? :
- i see you want to completely change the idea of the game. Bad Idea.
other ideas:
- all your ideas are great to the point that you want the game better but they are just making one side more OP and less OP other side of the game. It will not give the game much difference. What will make the difference is i suggested Freddy to make PERKS. you can get more armor, attack speed, attack dmg, speed, shield, etc (light upgrades nothing major) 1 gas for each level up. you can re-use them every game. new players with have extra gas at early levels that they at least have a better chance. This will make more players to get higher level to get more gas and be more OP. this will make the game more popular. unfortunately Freddy is very busy and furthermore he have done so many updates that I am surprised that he doesn't ask for donation for his effort (freddy i think you should haha).
Freddy, if you only have half an hour to work on the map, the first thing your should concentrate on is the Laser Tank. It's getting out of control. Everyone just completely dismisses tier 2 tanks and rushes toward laser with mk1 or mk2 weapons. Then it's cheaply equipped laser tanks against cheaply equipped laser tanks - which means no one dies for a loooong time to come, except when the laser bugs out and you cannot outrun it, which still happens.
I would even be OK with removing tier 3 of tanks until you can fix it completely. The current state of the meta game makes me not wanna play any more!
I really appreciate that you took the time to think about what could be done better. And although I agree with you on a lot of the problems that exist, I do not agree with all your ideas. But like I said before, you make the impression of not really being able to grasp the core concept of this map and /or don't have enough experience. It feels like you are coming up these as you type, not giving them a second thought. Though it might be good input for a brainstorming session from my perspective a lot of your ideas either undermine the core game play concept or have too strong side effect.
And it's nothing personal, in fact I kind of like you. There aren't many people who care enough to give feedback at all.
To the map:
I disagree with Maximusssss that more starting money would make tier 1 and 2 useless. It's still a bad idea though (for the state the game is in right now), here is why:
Lower tier guns have better cost efficiency than higher tier gun, meaning you are getting more bang for the buck. That's why it is better to have more lower tier guns instead of one high tier. For example the laser: 1DPS on the MK1 costs about 13.3 minerals, one MK2 DPS costs almost 15.4 minerals.
In other words: two MK1 deal 60 DPS, one MK2 deals 58 DPS but costs 100 minerals more then two MK1.
That's why it is best to first fill up the inventory with low tier guns before upgrading. There are also other factors like the random targeting. Two guns instead of one double the probability of you actually hitting the right target. And since you get experience for everything that you shot at at least once and then dies, more weapons will generate more experience when grinding troops and will let you have more last hits giving you more money.
More starting money would also mean more DPS applied in the beginning making you die faster and thus battles shorter. At the moment you can be killed while trying to capture center, respawn and get back to center to interrupt the enemy with full HP exactly once before they will take the outpost (so 30 seconds). With more DPS around battles would be shorter and I think your might be able to do that more than once (respawn, get back to interrupt).
Here is another thing I am concerned about: suicide. Whenever I have a killing streak of about 6 to 8 kills I go visit the Zerg and let them kill me. Just to deny the bounty (it's 1000+ minerals - pretty substantial) for the next opponent.
Should there be something done about it? Can there even be something done about with the current bounty system?
Also, there is an issue with troop movement at the start. Troops don't meet at the center of the northern outpost. Northern marines stop inside the circle whereas southern marines stop a little bit outside.
when you mentioned that you use a mortar weapon you indicated to me your level of play. this however does not mean anything because anyone can give great ideas for the game therefore i thought i share why not share some tips with someone who wants to help the game and make it better.
after a new patch when lasertank was implemented with 200dmg/s ability (which is not accurate it is probably exponential damage) everything reversed. newbies were killing average players. average players players were killing pro players because some will just hurry to get lasertank + lots of armor. Yes, after armor of 8 was implemented with an ability to change to 9.5 lasertank and doom became unstoppable. I refused to play with lasertank even i the fact that is so OP and kill any game. I kept trying to invent various new strategies but with no avail. I did not want to play with a lasertank because it will loose the point of the whole game. as the game did not change much, lasertank was the number one hero, i slowly lost interest and later got busy with various projects which did not allow me play the game more often.
i see that you cherry picked some of my feedback, but let's just discuss the things that you mentioned here:
- How about giving us much more starting resources? - giving more starting income makes tier 1 or tier 2 weapons pointless.
mOOhkOOh is right about the weapon stats. i am aware of that. i use this little tip all the time, but the detail reason why high starting resources will be pointless is:
1) you are able to buy better tank like battletank. if you can get it you can absorb 2 or 2.5 times of dmg. what i play with my clan we always do one trick. I buy a walker1, and weapon mk1 or shield (cant remember now the formula need to play it again). My friend does not buy a hero and buys me weapons with all his money (sometimes buys a shield instead of 1 additional weapon). i have several weapons + shield. i am able to wipe out 2 or 2.5 players at the early game buy attacking from the side in the middle outpost. i shoot and there troops and when i get the right angle i go to the side and focus on one closest to me. usually it takes one shot to kill walker1 and 1.4 shot to kill a smalltank with all those weapons. if i have 1 backup walker1 with me we can easily wipe out all 3 in the midbase and sometimes all 4 just 2 of us. and another one is getting north or south outposts. so if i can get more minerals i will get a batteltank and ask my friend get my weapons. then i will be able to wipe out all 4 just myself because mostly people buy lasers mk1 x 2 at early game which is not effective vs. lasertank (its armored unit).
2) early game all bases are not captured which means if people don't have many guns in early game with skilled play you can still kill 2 people vs 1 if you wait/attack and be patient. for example 2 people try to capture north (let's say after 3-5 minutes). you can stand in a way where you will focus on 1 hero and allow the other one to come to you (he thinks he protecting his friend). if he comes close enough i EMP him and stand in a way to kill him. then the other one is damaged already and he seeks to capture the outposts. i go quickly to the outpost and re-set it. the problem with average players if they stand on the outpost they never stand in parallel line. i always look for this and stand in a way that i will attack only one of them. most people have a combo of lasers, rockets, autocanon, mortar and zappers. zappers are popular too so when you play for a long time you kind'a know the range of 7.5 so you come as close sa you can and you fire all your weapons (if i go all lasers) and at range 7 if i go rockets. their weapon fires back but because it has a combo of laser zapper it will not fire at me that much. he gets killed. other one is a bit stressed so you try to bait him with various other techniques. also a good advantage of having rockets because they fire slow so what i do if i have 5 of them for 800 minerals i quickly come close to him and all my rockets fire at him and when it fires i run back to range 8 or greater. my rockets do more dmg than his laser because it fires once and i dont stay long so their lasers cant fire fast enough. usually they will try to chase me but then i activate overdrive and run fast. when i see that my rockets are recharged again i turn 180 degrees and attack him the last time. he is dead to and he doesnt understand why. rockets are good but you need to know how to maneuver them.
3) walker1 or smalltank life is not that big even if you buy extra shield at the begining. that is why i dont want when a lot of people get lots of guns and people kill each other very fast. more kills increases respawn rate which will not help in the late game. it will take longer to respawn which ussualy (not sometimes) slows down the game even more.
4) in early game you see skilled play a lot. i mean if people are PRO. each weapon you choose depend on if you can kill your enemy or get killed yourself. so each range, dmg/s ratios are very important. So when weapons are cheap 400 each i like when this type of phase of the game turns very slowly. i mean when people start buying tier3 and tier4 a lot of kills depend on your health, shield and armor where in the early game a lot of depends on the weapons. they both depend on the weapons of course but the early game most people have similar hp or shields so correct gun choose is vital. this is where speed, teleport upgrades are important too (as per my previous post about it). this small things make the game very interesting. if you give lots of minerals PRO players will get a tier2 tank where i LOVE to see the BLUE and RED fight slowly especially when early game outpost capturing is not that vital and mineral income for outposts are not that big.
5) mOOhkOOh said a good example why it is great to have more minerals but that fact has a double edge sword. if all players invest like mOOhkOOh discribed get 5 o 6 lasers mk1 which has more dmg per value ratio than mk2 or mk3 that you will not see any difference but if you really smart and observe what your enemy is buying you can get a) speed + hunter seeker, b) or teleport + lots of hp. this is not the best strategy but used just and example to make a point. for example a) speed + hunter seeker with 8 range gives an amazing harrass tool. you attack from range 8, he tries to catch you, then you run back (use overdrive if you need to), he sees he cant catch you and teleports or goes back to heal because you fired at him a few times. then you turn 180 and try to catch him or stand at 8 range if he teleports and try kill him. he starts to chase you again but you keep repeating the same strategy until he is really weak. the problem with this strategy is if he is a battlement which can absorb a lot of hits with shield ability but you can still kill him if you are pretty skilled. strategy b) is when you try to find someone with half life or hit by another friend who got killed. you have lots of hp but not that many weapons but you dont need many because you can take him out because he is hit. and then teleport if you see you will kill you. you can get a lot of easy kills this way but again this depends on the fact that you need to be at the right place at the right time. it takes a lot of scanning of the map, constantly pressing on the small maps to look for weak links in the enemy team, sometimes ask for help to ambush the enemy from both sides.
"While that may seem like a logical thing, anyone can say they have authority :P (and I'm the type that doesn't believe something unless I see it). If you can't explain things in a simple way then it's likely you don't understand it enough (or can't prove your point making it invalid)."
- your comment was written in a way to challenge me that i am in some strange reason obligated to prove something otherwise my point is invalid. who am i to disabuse you of your own believes. i am just sharing information. if it is not in harmony with you you are under no obligation to believe what i say.
Then why not remove kill bounty from heroes? : - i see you want to completely change the idea of the game. Bad Idea.
- that was wrong of me to write such a short comment. it did not respond in a manner that will convey clear reason why this comment is true of false. ok lets try now. if you remove hero bounty you will leave less options to earn minerals. one is killing queens, other is income, third is outposts and fourth is zerg hives and zergs in general. people should be rewarded for killing a hero that is how they get higher ranks. the only way you can get higher rank is winning the game (i think you get 25 points for that) and killing enemy heroes (i think it is 2-3 points per kill and -1 if you get killed). so why not remove a bounty? well:
1) you need to suggest a new ranking system. how do people get higher ranking. if it is my win of the whole game that means if you play with an 'no so good players' you can play well or have highest kill rate but you will still loose. people like to get rewarded to have higher rank this is kinda recognisation by other players that 'this guy is a good player, he is general, etc'.
2) and the most interesting is getting minerals from killing heroes because it is not a computer you are playing against it is a real person. why don't we just play against a computer. well, because it is boring. the only reason i will play with a computer is explore new patch and maybe explore the map if you are a newbie (learn all upgrades etc).
sorry i have to go. this was probably a long comment anyway so should be enough.
Sorry guys I'm really busy atm. Just hotfixed the laser tank a moment ago. Hope this helps to fix the most urgend issues, but its not a complete overhaul.
[EDIT]Also mirrored the northern outpost turrets correctly and prevented killstreak breaks via suicide, because these ones were just small tweaks[/EDIT]
Thanks for your engagement and the mass of feedback. I did not have time to read all your comments but I will in.. probably a couple of weeks. :)
Oh and btw: Be nice to each other :-D
I think every comment is helpful for me to improve the map and I'm always open for new ideas. Mainly because its also just a hobby for me and there are many people out there who are better at designing, map-making, balancing, etc. than me.
Just dont be upset when I cant respond to every question or implement and test every suggested feature. My time is limited and as I said.. its a hobby ;)
If you are experienced in the galaxy editor, especially at data editing, and want to help - just feel free to pm me.
Sorry guys I'm really busy atm. Just hotfixed the laser tank a moment ago. Hope this helps to fix the most urgend issues, but its not a complete overhaul.
[EDIT]Also mirrored the northern outpost turrets correctly and prevented killstreak breaks via suicide, because these ones were just small tweaks[/EDIT]
Much appreciated. I will give it a shot in the evening and then report back.
This seems like a huge issue that needs to be fixed. What we gain from higher tier guns should be proportional to what we pay. If autocannon mk1 costs 400 and autocannon mk2 costs 500 (from upgrading), then mk2's stats should be exactly 5/4 better than mk1.
It's better to be more flexible and let players choose how to upgrade whether it's very few but really good items or just many items. As m00h said, tier 1 is still better because you're more likely to gain more exp.
Another problem is that it makes mid/late game upgrading extremely slow. You're pouring so much minerals in just for slightly higher dps.
I don't think there is problem here, at all. There would be, if we had infinite space in our inventory. But we don't. So the reason you are pying more for a higher tier laser is that it leaves you with an open space in the inventory for roughly the same DPS. So instead of 6 MK1s you have 5 MK1 and 1MK2 for almost the same DPS but now can also buy something else, which overall shuold better then 6 MK1. That's what you are paying for.
Also I don't think the slow upgrade process is a real problem in a balanced game. The time it takes to buy items, combine them at one shop and then combine them at another is time you are not doing anything productive for your team. So it gives the opponent's team time to steal outposts, engage the base or hunt stray player, like you. From my point of view it's a good mechanic in the sense that it promotes team play and let's you chose if you even have enough time to make the trip or if you're better off going to help defend the outpost.
That was the idea. I wanted to shorten game time so it's not 1-2 hours each game. Although suprisingly in the last game I played we finished in about 1 hour and I guess the pacing of battles is decent. You know, if there's a worry about higher dps why couldn't those minerals be used to buy shields and armor? Is there another issue between the balance of offensive and defensive gear?
Hm. I usually go offense first before picking up defense and win most 1v1 engagements. So this might be worth looking at (Excel, here I come!).
On the other hand I may not be representative as I am a very good player (lifetime kills/death is 3/1 and that includes my learning days where I really sucked).
@Maximusssss: Go
I now see what you mean where increased starting resources would make this worse. However, this may be the real problem. It seems broken allowing 2+ players to pool their resources and produce a better tank. While your friend may not mind, I think this shouldn't be allowed. This is another way to fix this particular concern of yours. But, if Freddy intended to have this then please delay trading of items until later in the game.
If you and your friend decide to share resources as you've said but the other team doesn't, it's extremely unfair because the only counter to a mega tank at the beginning is for the other team to copy you by pooling their resources. I'm pretty sure lots of players won't be happy just sitting around while their ally pulls the weight of the team.
This would be fixed by applying minimum required levels to tanks. Only MK1 for everyone in the beginning!
@Maximusssss: Go
You forget to mention the infantry or Northern/Southern forces. Assuming you meant outposts as the structures. Removing kill bounty is taking out 1 of the 5 ways to earn minerals. What's so bad about that? Afaik kills aren't happening too often unless people are being really careless and not retreating when low on HP.
@Maximusssss: Go
I do not know what computers have to do with this and while getting minerals from kills may feel good, I could argue it isn't necessary to upgrade your tank. As a said before, killing a hero is already rewarding because you can do stuff while they wait for respawn and you get exp.
In a 90 minute long game I usually end up with around 30 kills. That's a kill every 3 minutes. And taking away bounty from player kills is bad because this is why players play PvP games. Instant gratification. Especially in public games with random teammates doing something because "it's good for the team" is not seen that often.
Here's another two different random thoughts I would like to leave here:
1) if you are going down the shield upgrade route OR use zappers as weapons, you are setting yourself up for defeat.
Why? Most late game tanks have much more armor HP then they have shield HP so you are more likely to meet someone with lots of armor HP where your zappers will only tickle them. Also, going down the armor road means you increase your speed, your armor rating and have the ability to instantly repair a part of your HP. Shields can't do that.
2) in most other games/maps I consider it bad manner to stay in the game after it's clear that you have lost the game. This point may in DTankB be when you are contained in your base so you cannot get better gear, when enemy troops are already streaming inside because some of the base defenses are destroyed and your own team mates get killed on your base, this game should be over.
But in DTankB something strange happens. As soon as most of the players in the defeated team leave the game, the other two or even just one have a HUGE chance to turn the whole game around (I'm not going into detail how, just that I win in situations like this in 8/10 times).
And this is just plain wrong. It nullifies the while effort of the opponent's team who may even have dominated your team for 60 minutes straight. It's like the first 60 minutes of the game didn't even matter. There needs to be something done about it, if you ask me.
"In that case I should forget about getting mk3 + items. They're too useless or a waste of time/resources to get as you said. I should spend that time attacking the enemy constantly once my inventory is full or I have a reasonable tank. "
why don't you try to attack the enemy and upgrade at the same time. for example you have flame mk1 and rocket mk1 x 2 and you see you need to help someone in the south. you go help them and then upgrade your rockets into a barrage because they are closer (flame mk1 s in the north middle side). so you need to put into account. so you follow a simple concept for all your equipment during the game (help your friends, good teamplay skills, and upgrade when you can). you always need to put this into account when upgrading and making sure the outposts are protected.
1) what items you have
2) how much minerals you have
3) what your enemy is upgrading
4) who needs your help or what outpost you need to protect
5) and then take into account what and when to upgrade (armor, weapons, shield , etc).
so this takes SKILL and a lot of time of gameplay to fully comprehend what to do and at what time. just food for thought
What if I had 5 equipment (while carrying 6) that I didn't want to change (either because it was like bunker buster and couldn't be upgraded or it was something from the scientist shop) and the 6th one I wanted a genuine upgrade?
You are only in this situation if you made bad choices during the game. Why did you even buy a bunker buster? Just position yourself properly so you only shoot the building.
Instead of learning how to play you are now trying to make "your way" work when all you have to do is learning what the best way it - and it certainly it not yours. There is no shortcut to becoming a good player.
And even if you end up with all scientist-level items you can still upgrade your tank and upgrade your troops (what you should so at a certain point, anyways) and even after that you can buy barracks (what you should also so at a certain point). Then the game ends.
@mOOhkOOh: Go
I'm paying so much minerals for the next mk level and I get something very similar. By following my suggestion it's more flexible allowing players continuous and much better upgrading and gaining more inventory space.
The way it is now forces you to think about about what exactly you invest your minerals in.
So what's keeping you from buying something that's more useful to you than the next upgrade? And if you had more inventory space, what would you use it for? And why would it be "much better upgrading" when it's the same for everyone else?
Also, it wouldn't change anything. You would still end up filling up your inventory first (at least you SHOULD be!) before upgrading because of the way income is granted: You start out with two MK1 guns, you get enough for two more MK1 or one MK2 with the next income tick. Now why would you want to buy a mk2? Two MK1 are way better, you attack more targets, get more XP, get more last hits and so you get more money from troops, you get a higher chance of actually hitting an enemy tank that's hiding in his own troops. The next ticks you get much less so you end up buying another MK1 item just to have even have an advantage (over someone who is saving - see further down).
And later in the game, when you free up space in the inventory though combining, income is already high enough to start out with MK3 or MK4 equipment to put into these free slots.
@mOOhkOOh: Go
In that case I should forget about getting mk3 + items. They're too useless or a waste of time/resources to get as you said. I should spend that time attacking the enemy constantly once my inventory is full or I have a reasonable tank.
You should ALWAYS constantly attack the enemy and buy or upgrade items when you retreat or are revived. If you don't do that, you will get your ass kicked.
@mOOhkOOh: Go
That's not why I play tankbattle. I do it to try out the different interesting tank builds. I'm not that obsessed with defeating players :P . So you're kinda saying you want to keep something in the map because a certain group of players like it. They don't seem like the right kind of players to keep if they come just for kill bounty :P. I still don't understand your argument because I already find it instantly gratifying when I can leave the defeated player waiting before respawn. Doesn't exp gain serve the instant gratification part too?
That's just your way of playing. And yes, XP also serves as gratification. But nothing is as gratifying as grilling your opponent's tank with that shiny new laser he couldn't afford because he had less kills.
Oh and by the way, the respawn timer is often a pain in the ass for me, as I have less targets to attack for quite a long time. ;)
@mOOhkOOh: Go
EDIT: To expand on my 2nd paragraph in this post, I really hope Freddy changes the equipment so it's a worthy upgrade from the last mk level. With the current state of the map I usually find myself waiting to accumulate so much minerals before buying anything because each upgrade is hardly immediately useful (especially with most weapons). That's very very boring. When I want to 'upgrade' a module, I expect a significant upgrade and not just a way to save space in the inventory. I'm honestly considering to stop playing the map unless this is fixed.
If that's a reason for you to quit you don't seem like the right kind of player to keep. Sound's familiar?
Honestly, once again, if I read "accumulate so much minerals" and "upgrades hardly immediately useful" I get the impression again that you don't play often or still have a lot to learn. I don't understand why you wouldn't want to have every possible advantage you can get over your opponent? You want to spend every mineral you can, as soon as you can, on the equipment the upgrade is most useful for at that time. Even if that "only" means a 30DPS advantage, 300HP or 2 armor - it makes the difference between coming out of an engagement alive - or not. As the loading screen mentions, a good upgrade plan is a vital part of the game. Most 1v1 engagements I take I only win because I spend my minerals more wisely. Seeing a noob with 1 green laser...I immediately know that I can take him on with 4 MK1s. It's part of the game mechanics and something that should have to be learned.
@mOOhkOOh: Go
If you're not going to make each equipment (like autocannon mk1-3) almost double the damage efficiency of the last upgrade, you better give me at least 1 good reason why, especially if there's a problem(s) with my idea.
One good reason is, like I mentioned, that it forces you to think about what to invest your minerals in. Also, like I stated above, it's the same for both teams, so balance wise there is no issue. If you think that engagements take too long in endgame, I might agree with you when it comes to tanks like boom which are basically impossible to kill with current weapons. But I disagree when it comes to the "standard" tanks. Engagements are just long enough for every player to react accordingly and not being instantly killed by the one who shot first. A good measure is IMHO: Can you interrupt two players who are capturing an outpost and get out alive? Usually you can't which is the way it should be, IMO.
@mOOhkOOh: Go
EDIT2: Letting us upgrade better and faster would also help with that concern of m00hk00h's where it takes a long time to defeat a team who's clearly lost. With better upgrades the game should end sooner.
I wasn't talking about a game not ending, I was talking about being able to completely turn a lost game around if most other team members leave the game. That needs fixing.
With linear upgrade both teams apply more damage. It doesn't change anything aside from the time engagement's take. That leaves not so good players with less time to decide what to do, which tips the balance even more towards good players who are usually a lot better at kiting, a lot better at knowing when to use which abilities and how to maneuver.
Would it speed up the game? Probably not. Just as the engaging team now offends better, the defending team defends better. So what.
Come on people... What happens with the stats in the game?? I try hard to get points and than I lose my stats... Twice already!! Please fix it or the game becomes pointless to me.
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The issue as I see it is that, if you don't rush for the outposts, you are at a significant disadvantage. It's unfriendly to noobs who (if they had gone through the tutorial) take the time to check out the shops. It's always a rush game at the start and any other strategy is inferior. Hostile turrets would nerf this rush strategy so other strategies are more competitive compared to the rush strategy
@mOOhkOOh: Go
If I do drop excess equipment in the base, could it be picked up by my teammates? I don't want my equipment to be stolen :P
He gets it! :P
Can we agree, that we disagree? ;)
But talking about control: it's important to gain control of the barracks that used to belong to a player that left the game. You cannot sell or even destroy them, their troops are on the move command attacking nothing.
And talking about barracks: if you build barracks on the "other" side of the map, their troops will move back to the nearest outpost on the move command, not attacking. When they have reached the outpost they turn around and attack again.
Of course it's a balanced situation when both tanks arrive at the same time. That's was not was I was talking about, sorry for the confusion. I am talking about being first at the outpost and THEN someone on the other team reacts. Because when there is no opposition at the outpost I just walk past it and engage the opponents troops. They slow down, I get the outpost.
It's gotten a lot better now that you cannot leave the base early but you can still get enough of an edge, especially with the sprint ability against that "tank" starter tank (not the walker - sorry, I'm really bad with names, I just click the icons and off I am!)
I used to try to join the southern team, then zoom all the way out and rotate the camera to position myself as far north as possible. With the speed ability it was possible to shoot enemy troops right when they passed their own bunker. Good times!
You are right. But it's a good indication. And not considering leavers, which can totally tip the balance of a game.
That was standard game play on EU servers for quite a long time actually. Capture outpost, drop turret. It was even possible to put turrets on high ground spots which were only accessible by teleporting there. And once the turret was dropped, there was not enough space left for anyone else to blink there to destroy it. Was totally OP.
BUT! Now that the early income of outposts was nerfed so much it's not a viable tactic any more, at least in 3v3 and 4v4. Sure, the opponents are guaranteed to keep their outposts a little longer. But there is no way they will get the investment back, especially since they are basically donating 400 minerals to the other team's player who destroys the turret. And if it only was the turret that kept them the outpost, not their player skill, they in for a surprise once the turret pops because they not just behind in skill but now also in economy. gg.
Yeah, everyone can pick it up. Even enemies (I sometimes manage to steal (read: sell) something on the opponents base when I move in to destroy their barracks. It's super funny every time.
Oh now that you mention it, there actually is another bug I encountered while doing it: sometimes you can sell an item that was dropped by the opponent several times in their base. You get the minerals each time but also keep the item in the inventory.
m00h
I have an idea, to make outpost neutral when zergs overrun it.then the winning side will have to defend outpost from zergs.
Hello!
Haven't been here for ages. Looks like this game getting more updates. Freddy, I am uploading high resolution multiple color and layout medals in PSD format. Maybe you want to implement this in the future - ranking update. I am doing various PhotoShop courses so think these files be value to you.
I don't play this game for a while now but I really think LaserTank needs to be fixed. It has 200 dmg/s which is false. A lasertank can kill a 5000 hp predator in a few seconds. I think it multiplies. Then after a armor change where you can upgrade to armor 8 or 9.5 it is very hard to kill a lasertank or DOOM. It is not one of the reasons i stopped playing but that bug was really annoying. All previous startegies used in the past stopped working when lasertank '200dmg/s and + armor update' was installed into a new patch. Is this fixed?
Did ViperEST invited any new players in our clan? My hard-drive was wiped out so I don't have a game installed but I might come back soon.
Freddy, where are you at with new icons? I will send you a private msg with a link to download medals (very good graphics)
@Trieva: Go
Increase income - income is increased gradually and been tested in various ways. Increase kill bounty - enemy PRO player kills 1-2 newbies in early game and a huge advantage to the enemy team. Game lost. you dont want to do that. Make everything cheaper - people got use to the prices and you dont want to change that again. really hard to adapt again. I know that after Freddy changed prices a few months back some people left or stopped playing because of that.
Trieva - first of all i want to congratulate you for taking and wanting to assist to make this game better (i can read it between the lines). I am too fired up which put me into a capacity to help Freddy with various things i.e icons for weapons, weapons upgrade, stats, map or pure game ideas. my hard-drive was wiped out therefore i don't have the game anymore but i will install it in the near future and I still do care.
Increase income - i agree with you however if you increase income tier 1 or tier 2 weapons will not be bought at all which I and Freddy want to avoid. it is part of the game and there is no around it. Period... unless you have a pure new idea for us to re-consider....i am open for suggestions.
Increase kill bounty - you said you need more convincing evidence. Well I have the highest ranking of the game stats last time i checked (last time i played) which gives me an authority to give pretty good weight on various ideas about the game. i assisted freddy to create small parts of the game, make it better so i know probably alll strategies out there to win. i won battles that should be lost or surrendered therefore i know what i am talking about. SO. I take great responsibility stating the truth and facts that if you a PRO player kills 1-3 people at the start which is quite easy if you are pretty skilled you can get a better advantage (compared to know) and which assist you to win the game easier. i might be wrong but i played too many games to see this 'pattern'. you have an option to see it differently but i am just sharing information and personal first hand knowledge.
Make everything cheaper - you are an exception. you can but most people don't. i have 20 PRO players in my clan of Desert Tankbattle and 30% of them said they did not like the changes (price change) at all. you can ignore it of course but i am just sharing information.
I know that after Freddy changed prices a few months back some people left or stopped playing because of that. - refer to my previous paragraph.
P.S. Freddy - can you change the lasertank stats. it's too overpowered. the laser ability option is to OP. it has a bug of 200/dmg/s which has an error (it multiplies exponentially, not 200dmg/s) remove armor -1 and make it more a little bit more expensive.
over and out.
Trieva, I don't mean to insult you, but your comments always give me the impression that you actually don't play the game a lot or don't really "get" it.
Just my impression.
m00h
@mOOhkOOh: Go
When i read "/mortar." I agree with you too. Trivial your comment about mortar conveyed a message to me that you probably need to play more and try other builds. Mortar is the only weapon that does not have a good use YET. You can of course use it but not 4 PRO vs 4 PRO. Enemy will eat you alive especially when all PRO's get Walker when they are extremely fast so mortar don't hit you at all.
Suggestion: play a bit more and try other techniques. Perhaps try to get lasers or rockets and constantly upgrade them to higher tier weapons. Focus on shield, armor and hp. it depends of your style of course....
If you want to get to the next level i suggest to watch your enemy and try combination getting extra speed, teleport, radar for 600. At certain times of the game it has an advantage and can get you a few extra kills easily which gives you an extra boost. try to buy them and different times. for example if your team is loosing you get lasertank + lots of armor and teleport. you try to kill them and teleport when you see you cant get them. enemy maybe weak (half half life) and you can kill them easily. you teleport and heal you go. furthermore, after 1 hour of gameplay troops armor and attack is very high that you can focus on barracks however make sure they are protected at all times and you might have a shot to win.
i haven't played for some time but if you see these people in your team listen for their advice: Vitalki, FlyHigh, ViperEST, Savage, Mion and Zeratul too. They play very good. Everyone has their own style so watch their replays and learn from them i.e. Vitalki has an amazing attack strategy, he kills very quickly and gets lots of kills in the early game. he loves to farm queens when he has an opportunity which enables him to get DOOM fairly quickly so then he destroys your base because his armor + hp too high (all your turrets will be destroyed soon). FlyHigh has a unique style as well (not sure if he plays haven't see him when I played).
Good Luck.
How about giving us much more starting resources? - giving more starting income makes tier 1 or tier 2 weapons pointless. if you want more money just get more kills. early kills is very important so your skill is highly evaluated at the start of the game.
Maybe killing queens, nydus canals, and zerg increases income: - in other words it is called farming. farming is not main part of the game. it allows to make money but the current queen kill/reward ratio (in my opinion is perfect).
Then why not remove kill bounty from heroes? : - i see you want to completely change the idea of the game. Bad Idea.
other ideas: - all your ideas are great to the point that you want the game better but they are just making one side more OP and less OP other side of the game. It will not give the game much difference. What will make the difference is i suggested Freddy to make PERKS. you can get more armor, attack speed, attack dmg, speed, shield, etc (light upgrades nothing major) 1 gas for each level up. you can re-use them every game. new players with have extra gas at early levels that they at least have a better chance. This will make more players to get higher level to get more gas and be more OP. this will make the game more popular. unfortunately Freddy is very busy and furthermore he have done so many updates that I am surprised that he doesn't ask for donation for his effort (freddy i think you should haha).
over and out.
Freddy, if you only have half an hour to work on the map, the first thing your should concentrate on is the Laser Tank. It's getting out of control. Everyone just completely dismisses tier 2 tanks and rushes toward laser with mk1 or mk2 weapons. Then it's cheaply equipped laser tanks against cheaply equipped laser tanks - which means no one dies for a loooong time to come, except when the laser bugs out and you cannot outrun it, which still happens.
I would even be OK with removing tier 3 of tanks until you can fix it completely. The current state of the meta game makes me not wanna play any more!
m00h
I really appreciate that you took the time to think about what could be done better. And although I agree with you on a lot of the problems that exist, I do not agree with all your ideas. But like I said before, you make the impression of not really being able to grasp the core concept of this map and /or don't have enough experience. It feels like you are coming up these as you type, not giving them a second thought. Though it might be good input for a brainstorming session from my perspective a lot of your ideas either undermine the core game play concept or have too strong side effect.
And it's nothing personal, in fact I kind of like you. There aren't many people who care enough to give feedback at all.
To the map:
I disagree with Maximusssss that more starting money would make tier 1 and 2 useless. It's still a bad idea though (for the state the game is in right now), here is why:
Lower tier guns have better cost efficiency than higher tier gun, meaning you are getting more bang for the buck. That's why it is better to have more lower tier guns instead of one high tier. For example the laser: 1DPS on the MK1 costs about 13.3 minerals, one MK2 DPS costs almost 15.4 minerals.
In other words: two MK1 deal 60 DPS, one MK2 deals 58 DPS but costs 100 minerals more then two MK1.
That's why it is best to first fill up the inventory with low tier guns before upgrading. There are also other factors like the random targeting. Two guns instead of one double the probability of you actually hitting the right target. And since you get experience for everything that you shot at at least once and then dies, more weapons will generate more experience when grinding troops and will let you have more last hits giving you more money.
More starting money would also mean more DPS applied in the beginning making you die faster and thus battles shorter. At the moment you can be killed while trying to capture center, respawn and get back to center to interrupt the enemy with full HP exactly once before they will take the outpost (so 30 seconds). With more DPS around battles would be shorter and I think your might be able to do that more than once (respawn, get back to interrupt).
Here is another thing I am concerned about: suicide. Whenever I have a killing streak of about 6 to 8 kills I go visit the Zerg and let them kill me. Just to deny the bounty (it's 1000+ minerals - pretty substantial) for the next opponent.
Should there be something done about it? Can there even be something done about with the current bounty system?
Also, there is an issue with troop movement at the start. Troops don't meet at the center of the northern outpost. Northern marines stop inside the circle whereas southern marines stop a little bit outside.
m00h
ok. here goes.
when you mentioned that you use a mortar weapon you indicated to me your level of play. this however does not mean anything because anyone can give great ideas for the game therefore i thought i share why not share some tips with someone who wants to help the game and make it better.
after a new patch when lasertank was implemented with 200dmg/s ability (which is not accurate it is probably exponential damage) everything reversed. newbies were killing average players. average players players were killing pro players because some will just hurry to get lasertank + lots of armor. Yes, after armor of 8 was implemented with an ability to change to 9.5 lasertank and doom became unstoppable. I refused to play with lasertank even i the fact that is so OP and kill any game. I kept trying to invent various new strategies but with no avail. I did not want to play with a lasertank because it will loose the point of the whole game. as the game did not change much, lasertank was the number one hero, i slowly lost interest and later got busy with various projects which did not allow me play the game more often.
i see that you cherry picked some of my feedback, but let's just discuss the things that you mentioned here:
- How about giving us much more starting resources? - giving more starting income makes tier 1 or tier 2 weapons pointless. mOOhkOOh is right about the weapon stats. i am aware of that. i use this little tip all the time, but the detail reason why high starting resources will be pointless is:
1) you are able to buy better tank like battletank. if you can get it you can absorb 2 or 2.5 times of dmg. what i play with my clan we always do one trick. I buy a walker1, and weapon mk1 or shield (cant remember now the formula need to play it again). My friend does not buy a hero and buys me weapons with all his money (sometimes buys a shield instead of 1 additional weapon). i have several weapons + shield. i am able to wipe out 2 or 2.5 players at the early game buy attacking from the side in the middle outpost. i shoot and there troops and when i get the right angle i go to the side and focus on one closest to me. usually it takes one shot to kill walker1 and 1.4 shot to kill a smalltank with all those weapons. if i have 1 backup walker1 with me we can easily wipe out all 3 in the midbase and sometimes all 4 just 2 of us. and another one is getting north or south outposts. so if i can get more minerals i will get a batteltank and ask my friend get my weapons. then i will be able to wipe out all 4 just myself because mostly people buy lasers mk1 x 2 at early game which is not effective vs. lasertank (its armored unit).
2) early game all bases are not captured which means if people don't have many guns in early game with skilled play you can still kill 2 people vs 1 if you wait/attack and be patient. for example 2 people try to capture north (let's say after 3-5 minutes). you can stand in a way where you will focus on 1 hero and allow the other one to come to you (he thinks he protecting his friend). if he comes close enough i EMP him and stand in a way to kill him. then the other one is damaged already and he seeks to capture the outposts. i go quickly to the outpost and re-set it. the problem with average players if they stand on the outpost they never stand in parallel line. i always look for this and stand in a way that i will attack only one of them. most people have a combo of lasers, rockets, autocanon, mortar and zappers. zappers are popular too so when you play for a long time you kind'a know the range of 7.5 so you come as close sa you can and you fire all your weapons (if i go all lasers) and at range 7 if i go rockets. their weapon fires back but because it has a combo of laser zapper it will not fire at me that much. he gets killed. other one is a bit stressed so you try to bait him with various other techniques. also a good advantage of having rockets because they fire slow so what i do if i have 5 of them for 800 minerals i quickly come close to him and all my rockets fire at him and when it fires i run back to range 8 or greater. my rockets do more dmg than his laser because it fires once and i dont stay long so their lasers cant fire fast enough. usually they will try to chase me but then i activate overdrive and run fast. when i see that my rockets are recharged again i turn 180 degrees and attack him the last time. he is dead to and he doesnt understand why. rockets are good but you need to know how to maneuver them.
3) walker1 or smalltank life is not that big even if you buy extra shield at the begining. that is why i dont want when a lot of people get lots of guns and people kill each other very fast. more kills increases respawn rate which will not help in the late game. it will take longer to respawn which ussualy (not sometimes) slows down the game even more.
4) in early game you see skilled play a lot. i mean if people are PRO. each weapon you choose depend on if you can kill your enemy or get killed yourself. so each range, dmg/s ratios are very important. So when weapons are cheap 400 each i like when this type of phase of the game turns very slowly. i mean when people start buying tier3 and tier4 a lot of kills depend on your health, shield and armor where in the early game a lot of depends on the weapons. they both depend on the weapons of course but the early game most people have similar hp or shields so correct gun choose is vital. this is where speed, teleport upgrades are important too (as per my previous post about it). this small things make the game very interesting. if you give lots of minerals PRO players will get a tier2 tank where i LOVE to see the BLUE and RED fight slowly especially when early game outpost capturing is not that vital and mineral income for outposts are not that big.
5) mOOhkOOh said a good example why it is great to have more minerals but that fact has a double edge sword. if all players invest like mOOhkOOh discribed get 5 o 6 lasers mk1 which has more dmg per value ratio than mk2 or mk3 that you will not see any difference but if you really smart and observe what your enemy is buying you can get a) speed + hunter seeker, b) or teleport + lots of hp. this is not the best strategy but used just and example to make a point. for example a) speed + hunter seeker with 8 range gives an amazing harrass tool. you attack from range 8, he tries to catch you, then you run back (use overdrive if you need to), he sees he cant catch you and teleports or goes back to heal because you fired at him a few times. then you turn 180 and try to catch him or stand at 8 range if he teleports and try kill him. he starts to chase you again but you keep repeating the same strategy until he is really weak. the problem with this strategy is if he is a battlement which can absorb a lot of hits with shield ability but you can still kill him if you are pretty skilled. strategy b) is when you try to find someone with half life or hit by another friend who got killed. you have lots of hp but not that many weapons but you dont need many because you can take him out because he is hit. and then teleport if you see you will kill you. you can get a lot of easy kills this way but again this depends on the fact that you need to be at the right place at the right time. it takes a lot of scanning of the map, constantly pressing on the small maps to look for weak links in the enemy team, sometimes ask for help to ambush the enemy from both sides.
"While that may seem like a logical thing, anyone can say they have authority :P (and I'm the type that doesn't believe something unless I see it). If you can't explain things in a simple way then it's likely you don't understand it enough (or can't prove your point making it invalid)." - your comment was written in a way to challenge me that i am in some strange reason obligated to prove something otherwise my point is invalid. who am i to disabuse you of your own believes. i am just sharing information. if it is not in harmony with you you are under no obligation to believe what i say.
Then why not remove kill bounty from heroes? : - i see you want to completely change the idea of the game. Bad Idea. - that was wrong of me to write such a short comment. it did not respond in a manner that will convey clear reason why this comment is true of false. ok lets try now. if you remove hero bounty you will leave less options to earn minerals. one is killing queens, other is income, third is outposts and fourth is zerg hives and zergs in general. people should be rewarded for killing a hero that is how they get higher ranks. the only way you can get higher rank is winning the game (i think you get 25 points for that) and killing enemy heroes (i think it is 2-3 points per kill and -1 if you get killed). so why not remove a bounty? well:
1) you need to suggest a new ranking system. how do people get higher ranking. if it is my win of the whole game that means if you play with an 'no so good players' you can play well or have highest kill rate but you will still loose. people like to get rewarded to have higher rank this is kinda recognisation by other players that 'this guy is a good player, he is general, etc'.
2) and the most interesting is getting minerals from killing heroes because it is not a computer you are playing against it is a real person. why don't we just play against a computer. well, because it is boring. the only reason i will play with a computer is explore new patch and maybe explore the map if you are a newbie (learn all upgrades etc).
sorry i have to go. this was probably a long comment anyway so should be enough.
Sorry guys I'm really busy atm. Just hotfixed the laser tank a moment ago. Hope this helps to fix the most urgend issues, but its not a complete overhaul.
[EDIT]Also mirrored the northern outpost turrets correctly and prevented killstreak breaks via suicide, because these ones were just small tweaks[/EDIT]
Thanks for your engagement and the mass of feedback. I did not have time to read all your comments but I will in.. probably a couple of weeks. :)
Oh and btw: Be nice to each other :-D I think every comment is helpful for me to improve the map and I'm always open for new ideas. Mainly because its also just a hobby for me and there are many people out there who are better at designing, map-making, balancing, etc. than me. Just dont be upset when I cant respond to every question or implement and test every suggested feature. My time is limited and as I said.. its a hobby ;)
If you are experienced in the galaxy editor, especially at data editing, and want to help - just feel free to pm me.
Much appreciated. I will give it a shot in the evening and then report back.
I don't think there is problem here, at all. There would be, if we had infinite space in our inventory. But we don't. So the reason you are pying more for a higher tier laser is that it leaves you with an open space in the inventory for roughly the same DPS. So instead of 6 MK1s you have 5 MK1 and 1MK2 for almost the same DPS but now can also buy something else, which overall shuold better then 6 MK1. That's what you are paying for.
Also I don't think the slow upgrade process is a real problem in a balanced game. The time it takes to buy items, combine them at one shop and then combine them at another is time you are not doing anything productive for your team. So it gives the opponent's team time to steal outposts, engage the base or hunt stray player, like you. From my point of view it's a good mechanic in the sense that it promotes team play and let's you chose if you even have enough time to make the trip or if you're better off going to help defend the outpost.
Hm. I usually go offense first before picking up defense and win most 1v1 engagements. So this might be worth looking at (Excel, here I come!).
On the other hand I may not be representative as I am a very good player (lifetime kills/death is 3/1 and that includes my learning days where I really sucked).
This would be fixed by applying minimum required levels to tanks. Only MK1 for everyone in the beginning!
In a 90 minute long game I usually end up with around 30 kills. That's a kill every 3 minutes. And taking away bounty from player kills is bad because this is why players play PvP games. Instant gratification. Especially in public games with random teammates doing something because "it's good for the team" is not seen that often.
Here's another two different random thoughts I would like to leave here:
1) if you are going down the shield upgrade route OR use zappers as weapons, you are setting yourself up for defeat.
Why? Most late game tanks have much more armor HP then they have shield HP so you are more likely to meet someone with lots of armor HP where your zappers will only tickle them. Also, going down the armor road means you increase your speed, your armor rating and have the ability to instantly repair a part of your HP. Shields can't do that.
2) in most other games/maps I consider it bad manner to stay in the game after it's clear that you have lost the game. This point may in DTankB be when you are contained in your base so you cannot get better gear, when enemy troops are already streaming inside because some of the base defenses are destroyed and your own team mates get killed on your base, this game should be over.
But in DTankB something strange happens. As soon as most of the players in the defeated team leave the game, the other two or even just one have a HUGE chance to turn the whole game around (I'm not going into detail how, just that I win in situations like this in 8/10 times).
And this is just plain wrong. It nullifies the while effort of the opponent's team who may even have dominated your team for 60 minutes straight. It's like the first 60 minutes of the game didn't even matter. There needs to be something done about it, if you ask me.
m00h
Just a short note: If you want to take a look at the current item/hero stats I uploaded the balancing sheet: CLICK
To possibly save you time. I'm out again for some time, as I said.
"In that case I should forget about getting mk3 + items. They're too useless or a waste of time/resources to get as you said. I should spend that time attacking the enemy constantly once my inventory is full or I have a reasonable tank. "
why don't you try to attack the enemy and upgrade at the same time. for example you have flame mk1 and rocket mk1 x 2 and you see you need to help someone in the south. you go help them and then upgrade your rockets into a barrage because they are closer (flame mk1 s in the north middle side). so you need to put into account. so you follow a simple concept for all your equipment during the game (help your friends, good teamplay skills, and upgrade when you can). you always need to put this into account when upgrading and making sure the outposts are protected.
1) what items you have 2) how much minerals you have 3) what your enemy is upgrading 4) who needs your help or what outpost you need to protect 5) and then take into account what and when to upgrade (armor, weapons, shield , etc).
so this takes SKILL and a lot of time of gameplay to fully comprehend what to do and at what time. just food for thought
You are only in this situation if you made bad choices during the game. Why did you even buy a bunker buster? Just position yourself properly so you only shoot the building.
Instead of learning how to play you are now trying to make "your way" work when all you have to do is learning what the best way it - and it certainly it not yours. There is no shortcut to becoming a good player.
And even if you end up with all scientist-level items you can still upgrade your tank and upgrade your troops (what you should so at a certain point, anyways) and even after that you can buy barracks (what you should also so at a certain point). Then the game ends.
The way it is now forces you to think about about what exactly you invest your minerals in.
So what's keeping you from buying something that's more useful to you than the next upgrade? And if you had more inventory space, what would you use it for? And why would it be "much better upgrading" when it's the same for everyone else?
Also, it wouldn't change anything. You would still end up filling up your inventory first (at least you SHOULD be!) before upgrading because of the way income is granted: You start out with two MK1 guns, you get enough for two more MK1 or one MK2 with the next income tick. Now why would you want to buy a mk2? Two MK1 are way better, you attack more targets, get more XP, get more last hits and so you get more money from troops, you get a higher chance of actually hitting an enemy tank that's hiding in his own troops. The next ticks you get much less so you end up buying another MK1 item just to have even have an advantage (over someone who is saving - see further down).
And later in the game, when you free up space in the inventory though combining, income is already high enough to start out with MK3 or MK4 equipment to put into these free slots.
You should ALWAYS constantly attack the enemy and buy or upgrade items when you retreat or are revived. If you don't do that, you will get your ass kicked.
That's just your way of playing. And yes, XP also serves as gratification. But nothing is as gratifying as grilling your opponent's tank with that shiny new laser he couldn't afford because he had less kills.
Oh and by the way, the respawn timer is often a pain in the ass for me, as I have less targets to attack for quite a long time. ;)
If that's a reason for you to quit you don't seem like the right kind of player to keep. Sound's familiar?
Honestly, once again, if I read "accumulate so much minerals" and "upgrades hardly immediately useful" I get the impression again that you don't play often or still have a lot to learn. I don't understand why you wouldn't want to have every possible advantage you can get over your opponent? You want to spend every mineral you can, as soon as you can, on the equipment the upgrade is most useful for at that time. Even if that "only" means a 30DPS advantage, 300HP or 2 armor - it makes the difference between coming out of an engagement alive - or not. As the loading screen mentions, a good upgrade plan is a vital part of the game. Most 1v1 engagements I take I only win because I spend my minerals more wisely. Seeing a noob with 1 green laser...I immediately know that I can take him on with 4 MK1s. It's part of the game mechanics and something that should have to be learned.
One good reason is, like I mentioned, that it forces you to think about what to invest your minerals in. Also, like I stated above, it's the same for both teams, so balance wise there is no issue. If you think that engagements take too long in endgame, I might agree with you when it comes to tanks like boom which are basically impossible to kill with current weapons. But I disagree when it comes to the "standard" tanks. Engagements are just long enough for every player to react accordingly and not being instantly killed by the one who shot first. A good measure is IMHO: Can you interrupt two players who are capturing an outpost and get out alive? Usually you can't which is the way it should be, IMO.
I wasn't talking about a game not ending, I was talking about being able to completely turn a lost game around if most other team members leave the game. That needs fixing.
With linear upgrade both teams apply more damage. It doesn't change anything aside from the time engagement's take. That leaves not so good players with less time to decide what to do, which tips the balance even more towards good players who are usually a lot better at kiting, a lot better at knowing when to use which abilities and how to maneuver.
Would it speed up the game? Probably not. Just as the engaging team now offends better, the defending team defends better. So what.
m00h
I don't think this is going anywhere. :) I think we should just leave it at that.
Come on people... What happens with the stats in the game?? I try hard to get points and than I lose my stats... Twice already!! Please fix it or the game becomes pointless to me.