Lag is entirely dependent on the person playing the game. I hope you aren't developing the map under the belief that you will have client side responsiveness as this is 100% impossible with the editor we have at the moment. Correctly implemented trigger based movement systems are just as responsive as a data driven method. There is one simple truth and that is that all commands issued by the client have to travel to battle.net, and the result travels back. It is THIS travel time that is unalterable, uncontrollable, unavoidable and will result in every single movement system having some form of delay which in turn makes any sort of serious attempt at an FPS control scheme impossible.
You forgot one factor, bottle necking. Reason why you believe that movement system is impossible is because you prob based your facts solely on what you see here on mapster. Many of the people on mapster use key events to trigger their movements which checks all keys on your keyboard which is something like 98 keys and check each and every of them whether they were pressed up and down. When this occurs we can get bottle necking when the information reaches the server. THAT IS WHERE IT LAGS, NOT THE TRAVEL DISTANCE. Now I am basing this on the assumption everyone lives in NA and playing in NA server so distance shouldn't be a factor, if any lag does occur it will occur on all games anyway and that is not what I am looking at.
Now to get rid of this bottlenecking I've attempted to simulate how a regular melee player would send orders to the server. I agree using triggers is just as good as using data and that is what I've done with ability movement. But the trick here is that the player only needs to intalize the movement, after that the engine takes over the movement. Reason why my movement is not 100% like the WASD movement but it still gets you to point A to point B reasonablely well and with very little delay. My movement system needs some time to get use to but its the best I've come up with to a soultion to this bottlenecking.
You can't deny the fact that our system doesn't lag since we've had tons of tests with many different players. We wouldn't go out all this way to create a serious fps engine if we didn't confirm that it was playable with little delay.
If you still don't believe us join StrikeCraft channel on NA server around 10pm-12pm EST is usually when we test.
THERE ISN'T LAG!!! FFS ACTUALLY LISTEN TO WHAT HE'S SAYING.
Listen to what other people are saying "FFS!"
you can't change the way input works over bnet.
Even if you could, and you got absolutely no lag, why would people play this over say, counter-strike, halo, CoD or any number of the other games that do it far better in their own client -.-
I'll give this game a try, in single player. As I have no desire to deal with the lag, nor would I honestly spend my time on this when all those other options are available to me.
So in short, it looks good so far, hope there's a single player, sucks it won't be very popular but if you're ok with that then good luck to ya, look forward to trying it out.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Zergling Blood : starcraft://map/1/35684
Game of Thrones : starcraft://map/1/189756
Tacticraft : starcraft://map/1/223625
@Nebuli2: Go
Even if you could, and you got absolutely no lag, why would people play this over say, counter-strike, halo, CoD or any number of the other games that do it far better in their own client -.-
Wow really? Thats like saying why ppl play SoTIS when there's a better dota on wc3, thats like saying why ppl spend there time making sc2bw when there's broodwar already. Really? Well I got an answer.
Maybe cuz its STARCRAFT???
get off my thread this is a recuiting thread I'm not gunna argue over this stupid issue. When the game goes into beta then comment on it. Atm there is nothing to argue about, your not even making the project you don't know what we have done. You havn't seen the other side of the story. So take your critism elsewhere.
Wow really? Thats like saying why ppl play SoTIS when there's a better dota on wc3, thats like saying why ppl spend there time making sc2bw when there's broodwar already. Really? Well I got an answer.
Maybe cuz its STARCRAFT???
get off my thread this is a recuiting thread I'm not gunna argue over this stupid issue. When the game goes into beta then comment on it. Atm there is nothing to argue about, your not even making the project you don't know what we have done. You havn't seen the other side of the story. So take your critism elsewhere.
Way to conclude an argument after only making your point, without hearing the rebuttal, very mature.
I was simply offering constructive criticism, which is something any good mapper takes into consideration. You should add something more to the game instead of just straight fps mechanics. No matter what you do it will be inferior to the games who can do it in their own client. It also will NOT be very popular over B.Net, especially with the inevitable lag.
I am making my criticism based off the videos and my own experience with B.Net, both mapping and gaming. To claim I don't know what I'm talking about in reference to your game, when all I have to go in is the video that you presented, is to insinuate that you did a poor job in creating the video. I make my criticism based on what is shown to me, give me something better to work with and I just might give you that praise you so desire.
Until you can prove me wrong, face the fact that lies before you, and work toward changing it.
If you're so determined to continue working, knowing full well that it won't be very successful, then by all means go right ahead and I wish you luck. Just don't waste all this time for the wrong reasons, as a friendly word of advice.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Zergling Blood : starcraft://map/1/35684
Game of Thrones : starcraft://map/1/189756
Tacticraft : starcraft://map/1/223625
I recommend lowering the projectile launch point / raising the camera a bit as seen in the "update 1" video for a few of the weapons, they all look like they are being launched from a shoulder-mounted weapon instead of a hand held.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Zergling Blood : starcraft://map/1/35684
Game of Thrones : starcraft://map/1/189756
Tacticraft : starcraft://map/1/223625
I play a fair distance from Blizzard's servers, as do many of their player base, and so my latency sits in what I would assume is the 250ms-300ms range. "Optimising" input is all well and good but I guarantee you, any bottle neck you think occurs (and it most certainly does not) will not take anywhere near that amount of time for Blizzard's servers to process.
The game server already processes tens if not hundreds of thousands of calculations every frame and an addtional 98 key checks (any programmer worth his salt would be able to do this with no checks) are but a drop in the bucket. Even IF there was any sort of overhead from this calculation it would pale in comparison to my standard 300ms travel time between the server and I.
I can tell you right now that with 300ms delay between input and movement this map would become completely unplayable for me and anyone else in my position.
Unlike everyone else here I won't say bad words etc :S to make something that is like another game is not bad. There doesn't have to be many new things or different components in order for a game to be popular, some very great maps/games are just like copies of older ones (like how starcraft 2 melee maps is not that different from starcraft 1).
I have a WASD movement in my map "No Man’s Land survival" but that is based on key events in the trigger and it thus have delay (the lags don’t know what everyone mean but when i play my map with others there doesn’t seem to be much of lags, only a delay but I've adapted to this and seen countless people do it (more or less)). My map was at its peak about 500-700 hours played (according to the battlenet status thing) but now it’s forgotten as I haven’t worked on it for a long time. The reason I use the WASD I have is because it allows for smooth transition between angles and thus you do not have to walk in a extreme fixed direction (my map is a top down shooter and the camera is fixed so I cannot use the rotation camera movement).
However I'm always interested in trying out new WASD:s to see what people mean, I only have a EU account but is it possible for me to test this system you use? If I follow you right you only press a direction when you want to change the movement?
We do our testing on the NA servers. Join the chat channel StrikeCraft at around 10 PM EST. That's when we normally do our testing. I'm not sure, though, if there will be any testing tonight. There probably will be tomorrow, though, because I'm almost done with a new and significantly better map :D
If you need any help testing the map PM me i'm super good at finding Glitches in games.
@morphman220: Go
Do you have an NA account?
You forgot one factor, bottle necking. Reason why you believe that movement system is impossible is because you prob based your facts solely on what you see here on mapster. Many of the people on mapster use key events to trigger their movements which checks all keys on your keyboard which is something like 98 keys and check each and every of them whether they were pressed up and down. When this occurs we can get bottle necking when the information reaches the server. THAT IS WHERE IT LAGS, NOT THE TRAVEL DISTANCE. Now I am basing this on the assumption everyone lives in NA and playing in NA server so distance shouldn't be a factor, if any lag does occur it will occur on all games anyway and that is not what I am looking at.
Now to get rid of this bottlenecking I've attempted to simulate how a regular melee player would send orders to the server. I agree using triggers is just as good as using data and that is what I've done with ability movement. But the trick here is that the player only needs to intalize the movement, after that the engine takes over the movement. Reason why my movement is not 100% like the WASD movement but it still gets you to point A to point B reasonablely well and with very little delay. My movement system needs some time to get use to but its the best I've come up with to a soultion to this bottlenecking.
You can't deny the fact that our system doesn't lag since we've had tons of tests with many different players. We wouldn't go out all this way to create a serious fps engine if we didn't confirm that it was playable with little delay.
If you still don't believe us join StrikeCraft channel on NA server around 10pm-12pm EST is usually when we test.
BNet lag will def kill this game. Hopefully there's a single player component.
@EchoedRequiem: Go
THERE ISN'T LAG!!! FFS ACTUALLY LISTEN TO WHAT HE'S SAYING.
Listen to what other people are saying "FFS!"
you can't change the way input works over bnet.
Even if you could, and you got absolutely no lag, why would people play this over say, counter-strike, halo, CoD or any number of the other games that do it far better in their own client -.-
I'll give this game a try, in single player. As I have no desire to deal with the lag, nor would I honestly spend my time on this when all those other options are available to me.
So in short, it looks good so far, hope there's a single player, sucks it won't be very popular but if you're ok with that then good luck to ya, look forward to trying it out.
Wow really? Thats like saying why ppl play SoTIS when there's a better dota on wc3, thats like saying why ppl spend there time making sc2bw when there's broodwar already. Really? Well I got an answer.
Maybe cuz its STARCRAFT???
get off my thread this is a recuiting thread I'm not gunna argue over this stupid issue. When the game goes into beta then comment on it. Atm there is nothing to argue about, your not even making the project you don't know what we have done. You havn't seen the other side of the story. So take your critism elsewhere.
Way to conclude an argument after only making your point, without hearing the rebuttal, very mature.
I was simply offering constructive criticism, which is something any good mapper takes into consideration. You should add something more to the game instead of just straight fps mechanics. No matter what you do it will be inferior to the games who can do it in their own client. It also will NOT be very popular over B.Net, especially with the inevitable lag.
I am making my criticism based off the videos and my own experience with B.Net, both mapping and gaming. To claim I don't know what I'm talking about in reference to your game, when all I have to go in is the video that you presented, is to insinuate that you did a poor job in creating the video. I make my criticism based on what is shown to me, give me something better to work with and I just might give you that praise you so desire.
Until you can prove me wrong, face the fact that lies before you, and work toward changing it.
If you're so determined to continue working, knowing full well that it won't be very successful, then by all means go right ahead and I wish you luck. Just don't waste all this time for the wrong reasons, as a friendly word of advice.
@EchoedRequiem: Go
It already has been worked on and the lag has been removed to the fullest possible extent. The movement suffers no more lag than SC2 does by default.
I recommend lowering the projectile launch point / raising the camera a bit as seen in the "update 1" video for a few of the weapons, they all look like they are being launched from a shoulder-mounted weapon instead of a hand held.
@Nebuli2: Go
I play a fair distance from Blizzard's servers, as do many of their player base, and so my latency sits in what I would assume is the 250ms-300ms range. "Optimising" input is all well and good but I guarantee you, any bottle neck you think occurs (and it most certainly does not) will not take anywhere near that amount of time for Blizzard's servers to process.
The game server already processes tens if not hundreds of thousands of calculations every frame and an addtional 98 key checks (any programmer worth his salt would be able to do this with no checks) are but a drop in the bucket. Even IF there was any sort of overhead from this calculation it would pale in comparison to my standard 300ms travel time between the server and I.
I can tell you right now that with 300ms delay between input and movement this map would become completely unplayable for me and anyone else in my position.
Hello
Unlike everyone else here I won't say bad words etc :S to make something that is like another game is not bad. There doesn't have to be many new things or different components in order for a game to be popular, some very great maps/games are just like copies of older ones (like how starcraft 2 melee maps is not that different from starcraft 1).
I have a WASD movement in my map "No Man’s Land survival" but that is based on key events in the trigger and it thus have delay (the lags don’t know what everyone mean but when i play my map with others there doesn’t seem to be much of lags, only a delay but I've adapted to this and seen countless people do it (more or less)). My map was at its peak about 500-700 hours played (according to the battlenet status thing) but now it’s forgotten as I haven’t worked on it for a long time. The reason I use the WASD I have is because it allows for smooth transition between angles and thus you do not have to walk in a extreme fixed direction (my map is a top down shooter and the camera is fixed so I cannot use the rotation camera movement).
However I'm always interested in trying out new WASD:s to see what people mean, I only have a EU account but is it possible for me to test this system you use? If I follow you right you only press a direction when you want to change the movement?
Anyways, cheers and good luck to you ;)
@vincentgraymore: Go
The new WASD system is a bit awkward. Gamfvr made it so you toggle movement on with a key, and off with the opposite key.
Hmmm... I just noticed a typo on the news article. It has gamfvr written as gamvfr lol.
@Nebuli2: Go
why yes i do have a North America Account
@morphman220: Go
We do our testing on the NA servers. Join the chat channel StrikeCraft at around 10 PM EST. That's when we normally do our testing. I'm not sure, though, if there will be any testing tonight. There probably will be tomorrow, though, because I'm almost done with a new and significantly better map :D
Update 2
ill upload part 2 tommorrow
@Nebuli2: Go
awsome so PST is like 7 ish? if so ill try and make it
@morphman220: Go
Yeah. I hope there's testing tonight :D