The truth doesn't come for you, you obtain the truth. It's just lazy to
believe the truth is a god-erment handout. Truth is determined through
gathering evidence and that's what science and experimentation is all
about. You can claim anything as possibility in the absence of evidence,
but you cannot claim it as absolute truth because you cannot verify it.
You also cannot claim something as truth when a myriad of evidence exist
that contradict your claim. Religious doctrines are extremely flawed
"truths".
As for the tomato, it's philosophically possible, not inevitable, given
an infinite amount of time. As of our current scientific understanding,
it's not probable for a tomato to have the power to turn the night sky
red.
The presence of a disembodied intelligence has been duly verified, thank you very much. You're so naive to think that such a being wouldn't see right through your experimentation that I wouldn't expect you to understand.
That's your unverifiable hypothesis for why the experiments yielded results that contradict those subjects' existence. You don't have any evidence to verify the "presence of a disembodied intelligence". You don't understand science and as such you do not understand experimentation and gathering of evidence.
That's your unverifiable hypothesis for why the experiments yielded
results that contradict those subjects' existence. You don't have any
evidence to verify the "presence of a disembodied intelligence". You
don't understand science and as such you do not understand
experimentation and gathering of evidence.
Just because I have no evidence for you, doesn't mean I wasn't given undeniable evidence. The ironic thing is I was actually minding my own business when the mindfuck occurred, nothing close to prayer or anything like that. So, call it doubly lazy if you like.
It might serve you to entertain the notion that he just wants nothing to do with you, for whatever reason.
You need to have evidence in the first place before you can even claim to have "undeniable" evidence. If your new hypothesis is correct, your god seems to want nothing to do with the human species or the rest of the known universe. As we understand more and more of the universe, it seems your god wants nothing to do with the universe at all. Please refer to Gradius's chart of the decline of your god's powers in one of the previous posts.
You need to have evidence in the first place before you can even claim
to have "undeniable" evidence. If your new hypothesis is correct, your
god seems to want nothing to do with the human species or the rest of
the known universe. As we understand more and more of the universe, it
seems your god wants nothing to do with the universe at all. Please
refer to Gradius's chart of the decline of your god's powers in one of
the previous posts.
By your insistence it's merely a hypothesis that I'm typing on a laptop right now. I choose to trust my eyeballs now, just as I did then. Denying the validity of personal experience and sensory perception means you're left with nothing. It's just more nihilism.
Just because I have no evidence for you, doesn't mean I wasn't given undeniable evidence. The ironic thing is I was actually minding my own business when the mindfuck occurred, nothing close to prayer or anything like that. So, call it doubly lazy if you like.
That's fantastic. Too bad that such claims have zero weight when it comes to rational discourse. Why are you trying to prove yourself to us? Again, if your faith can move mountains, it should be able to withstand some criticism.
PS: I've got this awesome evidence which would totally dismantle your position, but I left it at my other computer. :P
Quote:
It might serve you to entertain the notion that he just wants nothing to do with you, for whatever reason.
Personally I'd be relieved that that genocidal/infanticidal petty ego-maniac God described in the bible wants nothing to do with me.
Except that personal experience and sensory perception can misguided. Many people mistake coincidence and random events as pre-ordained (e.g. "I didn't die on 9/11 because I overslept and missed my flight; must have been saved by my invisible friend"). Your eyes alone can't see the entire EM spectrum, blurry vision have caused people to misidentified human aircraft, Venus, Jupiter, and even the moon as undeniable evidence of alien spacecraft. Personal experience (a sum of evidence gathering) and sensory perception are good starters for gathering evidence, but they're not always valid and infallible. You probably don't have any personal experience with power plants and power distribution grid, so does that mean that outlets are magical portals from which electricity spew? If you've ever seen something at the bottom of a body of water and tried to pick it up, chances are, you missed the first time because your eyes were seeing the effect of light refraction between the interface of different media (air and water); what you saw as the distance wasn't the actual distance.
The train of thought that concludes I am trying to prove something with a self-admitted lack of presentable evidence is the very same that constitutes blasphemy as "a little criticism."
But I know you are keenly aware that the crux of the Christian faith is that no one else can prove it for you.
Except that personal experience and sensory perception can misguided.
Many people mistake coincidence and random events as pre-ordained (e.g.
"I didn't die on 9/11 because I overslept and missed my flight; must
have been saved by my invisible friend"). Your eyes alone can't see the
entire EM spectrum, blurry vision have caused people to misidentified
human aircraft, Venus, Jupiter, and even the moon as undeniable evidence
of alien spacecraft. Personal experience (a sum of evidence gathering)
and sensory perception are good starters for gathering evidence, but
they're not always valid and infallible. You probably don't have any
personal experience with power plants and power distribution grid, so
does that mean that outlets are magical portals from which electricity
spew? If you've ever seen something at the bottom of a body of water and
tried to pick it up, chances are, you missed the first time because your
eyes were seeing the effect of light refraction between the interface of
different media (air and water); what you saw as the distance wasn't the
actual distance.
Well said. But I'm not convinced that these commonplace optical illusions are in the same league as a head-pounding magnetic metallic ringing pulse, like someone flipped a breaker switch directly connected to the crown of your head, followed by a pair of luminescent eyes floating on a backdrop of stars localized entirely within your bedroom. It was the very night I reconciled with my brother after months of estrangement, having cursed his name to the pits of hell.
They are real things that are "misperceived" by humans, just like seeing the sun seemingly travel in the sky. It definitely sounds like your experience is an illusion. If you talk to people with traumatic pasts/mental illnesses they describe a whole spectrum of personal experiences and some of them may be quite similar to yours. The claim that you had an estranged relationship with a blood family member seems to suggest that the cause has something to do with traumatic event/mental illness (very broad in this sense)/something that affected the "normal" development of the brain; that's not even accounting for the things you claimed to see or hear. In a previous post, I've also mentioned how the symptoms of mental illness were often misunderstood for demonic possession/divine communication. I also can't rule out that you imagined your visions; similar way that L Ron Hubbard imagined his stories and may have believed his science fiction creations were actual depictions of reality. It's also similar to the way people take science fiction conventions and MMORPGs so seriously. It could be the "I want to believe" syndrome. Similar phenomenon with people who believe in conspiracies. It's also possible that it was a dream, but seemed real enough to believe that it actually occurred; during that dream, you may have found a solution in reconciling with your brother in a similar way that Kekule dreamed about the snake carbon chain or that you can solve a tough homework problem after ignoring it for a while.
It definitely sounds like your experience is an illusion.
I know. Your perception of reality doesn't allow for anything else. I get it.
You think all the crazies are a point in your favor. I consider them a point in mine. It's what we call an impasse.
It's easy to forget just how outlandishly bizarre this whole thing is. I just look at our strangely shaped troglodytic feet to remind myself. All I know about the true nature of reality is that it's flabbergasting beyond description. And as patently unprepared as I am for the supernatural world, well...you'd better pack some clean underwear...
My perception of reality is based on evidence, the type that is gathered through scientific experimentation, the type that can be repeated, scrutinized, and verified by other people. The supernatural world may not even exist. It's probably human misperception of actual reality, just as with the light refraction with water, UFOs, bigfoot sightings, mirages, creaking floors due to expansion/contraction due to moisture/heat, etc. It is possible you have Don Quixote syndrome.
By the way, Ra, Zeus, Odin, Xemu each have two eyes and his domain is space, so does Ming the Merciless, Emperor Palpatine, Q, even Ceiling Cat.
Just saying, according to you, your god seems to believe that helping you out with your personal problems far outweighs the obligation of curing all the world's diseases, ending famine, ending violence, ridding all those vices, etc.
My perception of reality is based on evidence, the type that is gathered
through scientific experimentation, the type that can be repeated,
scrutinized, and verified by other people. The supernatural world may
not even exist. It's probably human misperception of actual reality,
just as with the light refraction with water, UFOs, bigfoot sightings,
mirages, creaking floors due to expansion/contraction due to
moisture/heat, etc. It is possible you have Don Quixote syndrome.
By the way, Ra, Zeus, Odin, Xemu each have two eyes and his domain is
space, so does Ming the Merciless, Emperor Palpatine, Q, even Ceiling
Cat.
You seem to have a passable knowledge of history, and the cognitive development of mankind. How many times then must conventional wisdom be flipped on its head before you're convinced that the end is no where in sight?
You can't rightly discern a 1920 x 1080 computer image from four pixels.
Just saying, according to you, your god seems to believe that helping
you out with your personal problems far outweighs the obligation of
curing all the world's diseases, ending famine, ending violence, ridding
all those vices, etc.
I can't say I'm far removed from the unwashed masses at this point in time. Prior to my fall from grace I was a veritable Ned Flanders, a beaming, shining example of God's love that lit every room I entered. He LOVES people with big hearts, and I can only suppose that he still sees potential in me.
I also want to clarify that the incident happened after I reconciled with my brother. It didn't prompt me to action, it was an apparent result.
The train of thought that concludes I am trying to prove something with
a self-admitted lack of presentable evidence is the very same that
constitutes blasphemy as "a little criticism."
Why else would you post something that has no value for the rest of the posters here? So you had a magical experience and now you have the right to believe in God. That's great. But we can neither feel the things you did nor experience them for ourselves. We've all heard of miracles before and have no choice but to add your account to the rest of the unverifiable claims we've all heard.
Anyway, I've come to accept that all criticism and disagreement is blasphemy. That's why I've joined the church of blasphemy, and feel compelled to warn you that complaining about blasphemy is actually blasphemy against the church of blasphemy. ;D
Quote:
But I know you are keenly aware that the crux of the Christian faith is
that no one else can prove it for you.
Well said. But I'm not convinced that these commonplace optical
illusions are in the same league as a head-pounding magnetic metallic
ringing pulse, like someone flipped a breaker switch directly connected
to the crown of your head, followed by a pair of luminescent eyes
floating on a backdrop of stars localized entirely within your bedroom.
It was the very night I reconciled with my brother after months of
estrangement, having cursed his name to the pits of hell.
Dude, I don't want to take anything away from your faith, but that sounds like a serious medical emergency.
My perception of reality is based on evidence, the type that is gathered through scientific experimentation, the type that can be repeated, scrutinized, and verified by other people.
Like parallel universes?
Another thing, its pointless you bringing up Zeus, Odin etc anymore. Unless you want to show me its equal warrant for belief or greater compared with the bible, then you`re not making good arguments.
Couldn`t help myself with that picture, but I`ll return to this thread. I doubt ProzaicMuze will join the conversation in my stead, but lets keep in mind what he said before about not getting overly emotional and letting that cloud our reasoning and expressed opinions.
"Conventional wisdom" and "common sense" are trumped by evidence.
So, your god sees potential in you to help you, but your god doesn't see potential in Syrian children, African children, homeless children and children of abuse (particularly catholic sex abuse), etc, to save them? Does egomania (self-centeredness) ring a bell?
Hence why I've attempted to consistently say, "If the multiverse hypothesis is correct".
You keep accusing the other religions of being fallacious while ignoring the myriad fallacies of your own religion, so you obviously lack the skills to understand "good arguments". That's not even accounting the various times how you misunderstood science and tried to misrepresent results. You'd be great at being US politician just like Bachmann and Palin and Adkin.
Unbelievers are not obligated to believe in parallel universes. We're patient enough to live with uncertainty instead of making up answers that bring comfort. But again, nobody made up parallel universes as an answer to ultimate origins. These theories arose naturally from the need to solve problems in science and they were formulated with math and existing knowledge instead of stone-age irrationality and superstition. That's why if I was impatient enough to demand an answer right now I'd go with parallel universes. But I don't. That's what seems to be so hard to convey.
Quote:
Another thing, its pointless you bringing up Zeus, Odin etc anymore.
Unless you want to show me its equal warrant for belief or greater
compared with the bible, then you`re not making good arguments.
They all have equal warrant for belief because of the lack of evidence. The bible is no more credible than these religions because the only thing it has to fall back on is....the bible.
In a nutshell, Hinduism has a constant stream of revelation and is eternal. There was no Christianity before Jesus and no Islam before Muhammad. Try to see the world through the eyes of the person who wrote this article. He is much like you. He feels very strongly about his religion. There is only one key difference. He was born in India and therefore his religion is opposite to yours.
Instead of getting damned to the 19th layer of hell, you simply get purified from high orbit. You are only given only once chance to recant and make peace with Adun.
The presence of a disembodied intelligence has been duly verified, thank you very much. You're so naive to think that such a being wouldn't see right through your experimentation that I wouldn't expect you to understand.
@TheZizz: Go
That's your unverifiable hypothesis for why the experiments yielded results that contradict those subjects' existence. You don't have any evidence to verify the "presence of a disembodied intelligence". You don't understand science and as such you do not understand experimentation and gathering of evidence.
Just because I have no evidence for you, doesn't mean I wasn't given undeniable evidence. The ironic thing is I was actually minding my own business when the mindfuck occurred, nothing close to prayer or anything like that. So, call it doubly lazy if you like.
It might serve you to entertain the notion that he just wants nothing to do with you, for whatever reason.
@TheZizz: Go
You need to have evidence in the first place before you can even claim to have "undeniable" evidence. If your new hypothesis is correct, your god seems to want nothing to do with the human species or the rest of the known universe. As we understand more and more of the universe, it seems your god wants nothing to do with the universe at all. Please refer to Gradius's chart of the decline of your god's powers in one of the previous posts.
By your insistence it's merely a hypothesis that I'm typing on a laptop right now. I choose to trust my eyeballs now, just as I did then. Denying the validity of personal experience and sensory perception means you're left with nothing. It's just more nihilism.
That's fantastic. Too bad that such claims have zero weight when it comes to rational discourse. Why are you trying to prove yourself to us? Again, if your faith can move mountains, it should be able to withstand some criticism.
PS: I've got this awesome evidence which would totally dismantle your position, but I left it at my other computer. :P
Personally I'd be relieved that that genocidal/infanticidal petty ego-maniac God described in the bible wants nothing to do with me.
@TheZizz: Go
Except that personal experience and sensory perception can misguided. Many people mistake coincidence and random events as pre-ordained (e.g. "I didn't die on 9/11 because I overslept and missed my flight; must have been saved by my invisible friend"). Your eyes alone can't see the entire EM spectrum, blurry vision have caused people to misidentified human aircraft, Venus, Jupiter, and even the moon as undeniable evidence of alien spacecraft. Personal experience (a sum of evidence gathering) and sensory perception are good starters for gathering evidence, but they're not always valid and infallible. You probably don't have any personal experience with power plants and power distribution grid, so does that mean that outlets are magical portals from which electricity spew? If you've ever seen something at the bottom of a body of water and tried to pick it up, chances are, you missed the first time because your eyes were seeing the effect of light refraction between the interface of different media (air and water); what you saw as the distance wasn't the actual distance.
@Gradius12: Go
:D Romney and Ryan have this awesome budget plan, but Romney left it at his Cayman Island bank.
The train of thought that concludes I am trying to prove something with a self-admitted lack of presentable evidence is the very same that constitutes blasphemy as "a little criticism."
But I know you are keenly aware that the crux of the Christian faith is that no one else can prove it for you.
Well said. But I'm not convinced that these commonplace optical illusions are in the same league as a head-pounding magnetic metallic ringing pulse, like someone flipped a breaker switch directly connected to the crown of your head, followed by a pair of luminescent eyes floating on a backdrop of stars localized entirely within your bedroom. It was the very night I reconciled with my brother after months of estrangement, having cursed his name to the pits of hell.
@TheZizz: Go
They are real things that are "misperceived" by humans, just like seeing the sun seemingly travel in the sky. It definitely sounds like your experience is an illusion. If you talk to people with traumatic pasts/mental illnesses they describe a whole spectrum of personal experiences and some of them may be quite similar to yours. The claim that you had an estranged relationship with a blood family member seems to suggest that the cause has something to do with traumatic event/mental illness (very broad in this sense)/something that affected the "normal" development of the brain; that's not even accounting for the things you claimed to see or hear. In a previous post, I've also mentioned how the symptoms of mental illness were often misunderstood for demonic possession/divine communication. I also can't rule out that you imagined your visions; similar way that L Ron Hubbard imagined his stories and may have believed his science fiction creations were actual depictions of reality. It's also similar to the way people take science fiction conventions and MMORPGs so seriously. It could be the "I want to believe" syndrome. Similar phenomenon with people who believe in conspiracies. It's also possible that it was a dream, but seemed real enough to believe that it actually occurred; during that dream, you may have found a solution in reconciling with your brother in a similar way that Kekule dreamed about the snake carbon chain or that you can solve a tough homework problem after ignoring it for a while.
I know. Your perception of reality doesn't allow for anything else. I get it.
You think all the crazies are a point in your favor. I consider them a point in mine. It's what we call an impasse.
It's easy to forget just how outlandishly bizarre this whole thing is. I just look at our strangely shaped troglodytic feet to remind myself. All I know about the true nature of reality is that it's flabbergasting beyond description. And as patently unprepared as I am for the supernatural world, well...you'd better pack some clean underwear...
@TheZizz: Go
My perception of reality is based on evidence, the type that is gathered through scientific experimentation, the type that can be repeated, scrutinized, and verified by other people. The supernatural world may not even exist. It's probably human misperception of actual reality, just as with the light refraction with water, UFOs, bigfoot sightings, mirages, creaking floors due to expansion/contraction due to moisture/heat, etc. It is possible you have Don Quixote syndrome.
By the way, Ra, Zeus, Odin, Xemu each have two eyes and his domain is space, so does Ming the Merciless, Emperor Palpatine, Q, even Ceiling Cat.
Just saying, according to you, your god seems to believe that helping you out with your personal problems far outweighs the obligation of curing all the world's diseases, ending famine, ending violence, ridding all those vices, etc.
You seem to have a passable knowledge of history, and the cognitive development of mankind. How many times then must conventional wisdom be flipped on its head before you're convinced that the end is no where in sight?
You can't rightly discern a 1920 x 1080 computer image from four pixels.
I can't say I'm far removed from the unwashed masses at this point in time. Prior to my fall from grace I was a veritable Ned Flanders, a beaming, shining example of God's love that lit every room I entered. He LOVES people with big hearts, and I can only suppose that he still sees potential in me.
I also want to clarify that the incident happened after I reconciled with my brother. It didn't prompt me to action, it was an apparent result.
Why else would you post something that has no value for the rest of the posters here? So you had a magical experience and now you have the right to believe in God. That's great. But we can neither feel the things you did nor experience them for ourselves. We've all heard of miracles before and have no choice but to add your account to the rest of the unverifiable claims we've all heard.
Anyway, I've come to accept that all criticism and disagreement is blasphemy. That's why I've joined the church of blasphemy, and feel compelled to warn you that complaining about blasphemy is actually blasphemy against the church of blasphemy. ;D
No. The crux of the Christian faith is that Jesus's claims are self-evident and you have to accept them: http://carm.org/christianity/christian-doctrine/christianity-one-true-religion
Dude, I don't want to take anything away from your faith, but that sounds like a serious medical emergency.
Dr. Ravi Zacharias
This man can add some input.
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
Like parallel universes?
Another thing, its pointless you bringing up Zeus, Odin etc anymore. Unless you want to show me its equal warrant for belief or greater compared with the bible, then you`re not making good arguments.
@Gradius12: Go
That's why I've joined the church of blasphemy,
Couldn`t help myself with that picture, but I`ll return to this thread. I doubt ProzaicMuze will join the conversation in my stead, but lets keep in mind what he said before about not getting overly emotional and letting that cloud our reasoning and expressed opinions.
This link leads you to a series of videos that in the least would provide good mental exercise.
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
@TheZizz: Go
"Conventional wisdom" and "common sense" are trumped by evidence. So, your god sees potential in you to help you, but your god doesn't see potential in Syrian children, African children, homeless children and children of abuse (particularly catholic sex abuse), etc, to save them? Does egomania (self-centeredness) ring a bell?
@EternalWraith: Go
Hence why I've attempted to consistently say, "If the multiverse hypothesis is correct". You keep accusing the other religions of being fallacious while ignoring the myriad fallacies of your own religion, so you obviously lack the skills to understand "good arguments". That's not even accounting the various times how you misunderstood science and tried to misrepresent results. You'd be great at being US politician just like Bachmann and Palin and Adkin.
Unbelievers are not obligated to believe in parallel universes. We're patient enough to live with uncertainty instead of making up answers that bring comfort. But again, nobody made up parallel universes as an answer to ultimate origins. These theories arose naturally from the need to solve problems in science and they were formulated with math and existing knowledge instead of stone-age irrationality and superstition. That's why if I was impatient enough to demand an answer right now I'd go with parallel universes. But I don't. That's what seems to be so hard to convey.
They all have equal warrant for belief because of the lack of evidence. The bible is no more credible than these religions because the only thing it has to fall back on is....the bible.
Here's an article which discusses why Hinduism is superior to other religions: http://western-hindu.org/2008/05/28/hinduism-is-the-eternal-way-and-the-true-religion/
In a nutshell, Hinduism has a constant stream of revelation and is eternal. There was no Christianity before Jesus and no Islam before Muhammad. Try to see the world through the eyes of the person who wrote this article. He is much like you. He feels very strongly about his religion. There is only one key difference. He was born in India and therefore his religion is opposite to yours.
:-D
Actually, our patriarch is Judicator Aldaris:
Instead of getting damned to the 19th layer of hell, you simply get purified from high orbit. You are only given only once chance to recant and make peace with Adun.
@Gradius12: Go
En taro Adun.
Bless you son, in the name of the Zerri, the Kerri, and the Holy Raynor. En Taro Adun.
"And lo, on the 7th day of the 7th month, the Tychus of Findlay was freed from his shackles and decreed, 'Hell, it's about time!'"
- Book of Gradius, revision 9, section 8, division 4, chapter 3, sub-section 14, stanza 12, sub-chapter 9, clause 19, verse 3
...provision 2