Actually, science, more specifically, neuroscience, has already shown that many criminals are linked to mental illness. Mental illness can be caused by birth defect, or external factors, such as malnutrition and diseases. As science progresses, maybe we would eventually discover that all criminal activity is indeed linked to mental illness.
On a side note, if you plot all the people in the world in relation to crime/good/bad behavior, you would find the plot similar to a Gaussian because there are far more possible combinations of good-bad than possible combinations of good-good or bad-bad.
I feel obligated to remind any potential posters- These threads tend to get out of hand. If this turns into a hate/rage/flame war, it's going to be locked.
houndofbakerville, being respectful is something I really see as a mark of some insight, empathy, and civility in a person. I applaud such people for doing such. :). I also keep a dual thing as you say, since it's the most logical choice. Having listened to many debates, watching Darren brown (which I had to do again), a lot of stuff from both sides and many more, not taking personal experiences as "the absolute reality for everyone" makes me ask, "what if what I'm getting at with all these information is not what is intended really?"
If you get my point, I think the feeling of "maybe no one is absolutely right on where they stand. Maybe the extremes are supposed to be for something else than just believing or not believing" or the simple uncertainty is not being "on the safe middle" rather a recognition of the fact that even what seems certain may not be so.
I'm with you completely.
FDFederation, yeah, I've listened to the gentlemen who wrote the book, "The end of faith" or something, as he talked about it. It's amazing how he speaks Paris then Tokyo because that's what I was thinking exactly. Maybe he's done some Derren Brown or something. Still all the more, I cling to the concept of sub-conscious than what he seems to say.
As you hint at, more of conditioning, in terms of inherent reaction to environment, personality, conditioning, decision making, perception skills, awareness, physical faculty etc etc etc etc
If mental illness can be cured, I really hope they can get to it soon and fast. I want to witness for my self how humans will think and what we will be considering and to what ends when our minds are "fixed" or "perfect" (e.g. pure in the sense that it is absolutely completely without taint or weakness).
Anyway, I hope this tangent is relevant. I think it is.
I was baptized as an ortodox but I pretty much like to follow the belifes of my ancestors(dacians) shortly in life after death. You don't only live once and go to haven or hell, but rather to another phisical life somewere in this vast universe(kinda like buddhism).
I don't hate any religion, they all have good and bad things and I don't judge people for their beliefs, but for their extremes(wich make me rage hard).
Unfourtnetly the church in my country is extremly corupt and reach and the same is the patriarch.
Since we're talking about the value of respect now, I'd just like to say that I don't believe respect has any meaning, for the exact same reason that I don't believe in any religion. There is no consistent evidence, or even consensus, about what it means. There's even apparent confusion about whether "disrespect" is a zero-respect(if you don't respect, then you disrespect) or a negative-respect(disrespect is an active, conscious trait) condition. As far as I am concerned, it is at best an amalgamation of more easily refined traits. I've ruled respect out of my life just as I have ruled out religion, and nothing changed.
If any atheists would challenge this belief, think about all the arguments the religious folk have made here, then think about whether or not your arguments for respect seem a lot like those. :P
Does respect really need to be carefully defined in order to use it, though? To me it simply means I have a certain awe for a certain person. By itself this doesn't mean much, but by uttering that I respect him he'll know I like what he's doing/has done and will also know that I'm at least partially likeminded and probably open to help him if he ever needs my assistance. And what d'you think is easier to say? That, or "I respect that"?
The atheist Daniel Dennett specifically went out of his way to make his book friendly and non-offensive to religious people:
Quote:
Hah! Yeah, well I'm amused by it, because I went out of my way in my book to address reasonable religious people. And I test-flew the draft with groups of students who were deeply religious. And indeed, the first draft incurred some real anguish. And so I made adjustments and made adjustments. And it didn't do any good in the end because I still got hammered for being for being rude and aggressive. And I came to realise that it's a no-win situation. It's a mug's game. The religions have contrived to make it impossible to disagree with them critically without being rude. You know, they sort of play the hurt feelings card at every opportunity, and you're faced with a choice of, well, am I gonna be rude or am I going to articulate this criticism?
Religion seems to be the only thing that's taboo to disagree with. I've tried my best to be polite, not just in this thread, but overall. Don't know if I succeeded, but I found that it really comes down to patience. But no matter what you do, eventually, somebody is going to get offended because religious people have decided to base their entire life belief system on dubious ideologies - there is no skating around this. If we really wanted to get offended though we could be offended by:
1) Genital mutilation (an entirely religious concept)
2) Suicide bombing (an entirely religious concept)
3) Children not receiving vaccines, getting a poor education, or being indoctrinated at a young age to eschew critical thinking for fear of burning in hell.
4) And ultimately, the idea that we can't be good moral people without a book or god to tell us how, or that we only do good things because we have to be threatened with eternal torture, or bribed with eternal paradise. This is a concept that insults and degrades humanity at its very core.
It needs to be carefully defined, yes, because of how it's used to control people. Any time someone demands or expects respect from others, I just want to say "WHY. WHAT did you do to deserve this thing?" Veterans and old people are especially prone to this behavior.
Grad, it's also damaging to tell kids they're sinners/cursed and that they will go to hell. Condemning kids is simply inhuman.
TaintedWisp, good point.
Though I strongly believe, there's another and better perspective than what those in the pulpit are saying (may they be believers or non-believers) when it comes to life whether or not God exists.
The thing that saddens me the most is when I see things like this
I mean, of course there are nice religious people too, but usually they are taking it too far (like the Chick-fil-A thing against gay marriage, or sons/daughters are kicked out because they no longer believe in god).
It needs to be carefully defined, yes, because of how it's used to control people. Any time someone demands or expects respect from others, I just want to say "WHY. WHAT did you do to deserve this thing?" Veterans and old people are especially prone to this behavior.
Why don't you? Again, why does it need to be carefully defined for you to say such a thing?
Why don't I try to define it? Because I don't need to. My life is just fine without the concept. Do people want me to respect them? My respect has no value, because my understanding of it is hollow.
Done.. reading all the thread i mean (hahahahaha, private joke sorry)
Where to begin ?, ahh yes the trivial stuff first (getting rid of it :) )
brrr EW... profusion of typing takes virtual space.. does little else (you never once talk about the op ("part of" "organized" ..or even what you feel about your beliefs...), it seems you do exactly the opposite of preaching, while dressing it up as such... again "brrrr"..
uhhh..? Eiviyn is so boring and aggressive ... ?? if i may be allowed a prayer (pun intended), he should never talk/type "for" other people.. (possibly, in this case, it would avoid a misrepresentation of people with the "no god" or "maybe no god" points of view .. and we would all be better off. (it seems he is precisely what he hates.. and we must all suffer for it.. it is just sad) (ohh and lol about you declaring "since this thread is now nothing but vitriolic attacks" while you are responsible for most of it... lollololol you are transparent dear typist, you always have been)...
Seems the question from the thread heading is mostly ignored.. big surprise, not!
Seems the thread could have been discussions like (i don't know.. uuhhh ..."drama pause" aaaaa got one)
for example:
my brother in law once told me.. "it is a shame you wont be there with us.." .. should i have been offended by that?
i've never tried to belittle anyone on the subject though i've had to suffer a little from it, .. everyone suffers .. such is life, fine.
if was up to me to choose (it is not), i would want people to suffer through the free will process to do the right things.. the merit is doing it because you want to.. not because you have to, no? And "organized religion" does a lot of different stuff (good or bad), but casting off other people is wrong.. plain wrong. Religious people individually are the same, good or bad, many set themselves apart from fellowmen.. it is sad.
"christians" or "muslims" or others, say that sort of thing like they are trivial.. "you and you and you = you good :) " "u and u and you : not.. :( "
may i dare to retort wow.. ridiculous!
Is it not weird that "affiliated believers" need to formalize stuff.. eve, the plague, the 99 virgins, the this and the that.. ???
Whatever force could have created us and everything.. (lol sorry don't mean to be rude to anyone, but we (as a race) know precious little, next to nothing really, so the "everything" bit / bid .. makes me laugh then cry out of pure sadness).. whatever force is, it is.. .. why pretend we can us humans understand or (much less) translate what it is or "wants" etc..?
What really pops out of me on the subject is clear: the notion of organization is anathema to stuff like faith or purpose.
We are individuals, a race evolving.. a social cobweb, a fuse on fire, a bunch of butterflies creating whirlwinds and in love with the flame that is ignited in us somewhere somehow. Some fill it with "organized religion" some with hubris some with sleuth some with snoopy some with evil some with being ketchup coated buttnaked singing in the streets...
wtf does this lead to.. to whatever we will do (again, it is.. no need to formalize it and get tangled into specifics uselessly loosing time casting off potential.. ) and i say that in all directions (purist of the science make me wet my pants with their strutting).
just my opinion, but .. i would have liked (in this very secluded corner of the universe) to have seen the "do you consider yourself.." part of the post, discussed..
yes i consider my self trapped by organizations i know little about, people i know not at all (politicians with politics and economy as their religion...) that speak in my name etc..
i consider i'm free, but i'm not free in the real world.. not really, even though i like "buying it" (like all who can, .. i'm implying a whole bunch of people are not even given that "recourse" (to feel free even though you are not)).
Further more even the most agnos-tic or a-theosian is forced to have an opinion, there is no real freedom from organized religion(s),
just consider that for instance: everyone in times of extreme stress thanks something or someone for stuff happening...
So to recap (i still am baffled by the "christian roll calling" but whatever) ..
Yes i consider myself a product of civilization, and therefore a puppet of the art that came before me. Religion(s) being the most potent piece, i am unable to purely / truly think for myself on the issue.
Aspirations trunk faith, faith trunks thought.
i love a god of my choosing, i love all gods or creatures who love all, and those who are working at it. i despise the state of our race, so much potential, so little done.
in short, glhf and lets deal quickly with all who want/like to fu ck up other people on purpose (sorry, again private joke..)
(by the way, loved the G Carlin, not his best by far, but it made me compulsively type this : love the 7 words RiP Carlin, have fun wherever you are)
lol, like you can or would want to do without... you do respect or disrespect stuff internaly.. like everyone else.. it is not really something you can choose to ignore.
but whatever gets you happy...
i knew i'd left for something... :^)
the concept is so essential it supersedes any notion you would have on it.
When you were a baby and then a kid you choose people you'd respect and others you wouldn't, "familiarity breeds contempt" or "opposites attract" or "time served" or other unrelated (nothing to do with you making decisions) where deciding factors, you lived it before you could understand it, and ... define it.
Seems your posture is weird.. someone old requires respect? yes .. no.. don't care....? A baby deserves respect (you wouldn't do something improper to it or in front of it) ... your kid sibling, your mother etc.... funny to imagine how you'd define yourself without the concept (impossible but funny) ...
i get where the idea comes from, but it is not possible to be coherent without stuff like "respect" "lust" ""aspirations" "love" "pains" "shortcomings" "errors" etc
Why don't I try to define it? Because I don't need to. My life is just fine without the concept. Do people want me to respect them? My respect has no value, because my understanding of it is hollow.
I meant: why don't you say "Why? What did you do to deserve this thing?".
@GnaReffotsirk: Go
Actually, science, more specifically, neuroscience, has already shown that many criminals are linked to mental illness. Mental illness can be caused by birth defect, or external factors, such as malnutrition and diseases. As science progresses, maybe we would eventually discover that all criminal activity is indeed linked to mental illness.
On a side note, if you plot all the people in the world in relation to crime/good/bad behavior, you would find the plot similar to a Gaussian because there are far more possible combinations of good-bad than possible combinations of good-good or bad-bad.
lol, 15 pages, not locked yet.
hi barrin.. .. i had to quote you :^D
how you been?
On message: i got to page 9 and stopped
you know how people are dual..?
they are one person on the inside, and appear another to other people ...
well,
my exterior is that of a respectful atheist (which sort of means not respectful of everyone involved with tact and tastefully)
my internal is every notion and feeling i have.. have had and will ever have... so its kind of a blur on the issue.
i kinda like the karma bit :)
(admittedly i just posted coz of the Tl crack and coz i attended a christening today, and i felt like it)
oO0 almost forgot .. 30 years ago, i subscribed to "all we need is love" and sergent pepper's "lonely heart club band"
houndofbakerville, being respectful is something I really see as a mark of some insight, empathy, and civility in a person. I applaud such people for doing such. :). I also keep a dual thing as you say, since it's the most logical choice. Having listened to many debates, watching Darren brown (which I had to do again), a lot of stuff from both sides and many more, not taking personal experiences as "the absolute reality for everyone" makes me ask, "what if what I'm getting at with all these information is not what is intended really?"
If you get my point, I think the feeling of "maybe no one is absolutely right on where they stand. Maybe the extremes are supposed to be for something else than just believing or not believing" or the simple uncertainty is not being "on the safe middle" rather a recognition of the fact that even what seems certain may not be so.
I'm with you completely.
FDFederation, yeah, I've listened to the gentlemen who wrote the book, "The end of faith" or something, as he talked about it. It's amazing how he speaks Paris then Tokyo because that's what I was thinking exactly. Maybe he's done some Derren Brown or something. Still all the more, I cling to the concept of sub-conscious than what he seems to say.
As you hint at, more of conditioning, in terms of inherent reaction to environment, personality, conditioning, decision making, perception skills, awareness, physical faculty etc etc etc etc
If mental illness can be cured, I really hope they can get to it soon and fast. I want to witness for my self how humans will think and what we will be considering and to what ends when our minds are "fixed" or "perfect" (e.g. pure in the sense that it is absolutely completely without taint or weakness).
Anyway, I hope this tangent is relevant. I think it is.
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
I was baptized as an ortodox but I pretty much like to follow the belifes of my ancestors(dacians) shortly in life after death. You don't only live once and go to haven or hell, but rather to another phisical life somewere in this vast universe(kinda like buddhism). I don't hate any religion, they all have good and bad things and I don't judge people for their beliefs, but for their extremes(wich make me rage hard).
Unfourtnetly the church in my country is extremly corupt and reach and the same is the patriarch.
Just a fact, in Romania there are:
- 18.300 churches
- 4700 schools
- 425 hospitals
Amin
@GnaReffotsirk: Go
Since we're talking about the value of respect now, I'd just like to say that I don't believe respect has any meaning, for the exact same reason that I don't believe in any religion. There is no consistent evidence, or even consensus, about what it means. There's even apparent confusion about whether "disrespect" is a zero-respect(if you don't respect, then you disrespect) or a negative-respect(disrespect is an active, conscious trait) condition. As far as I am concerned, it is at best an amalgamation of more easily refined traits. I've ruled respect out of my life just as I have ruled out religion, and nothing changed.
If any atheists would challenge this belief, think about all the arguments the religious folk have made here, then think about whether or not your arguments for respect seem a lot like those. :P
@Saltpeter: Go
Does respect really need to be carefully defined in order to use it, though? To me it simply means I have a certain awe for a certain person. By itself this doesn't mean much, but by uttering that I respect him he'll know I like what he's doing/has done and will also know that I'm at least partially likeminded and probably open to help him if he ever needs my assistance. And what d'you think is easier to say? That, or "I respect that"?
The atheist Daniel Dennett specifically went out of his way to make his book friendly and non-offensive to religious people:
Religion seems to be the only thing that's taboo to disagree with. I've tried my best to be polite, not just in this thread, but overall. Don't know if I succeeded, but I found that it really comes down to patience. But no matter what you do, eventually, somebody is going to get offended because religious people have decided to base their entire life belief system on dubious ideologies - there is no skating around this. If we really wanted to get offended though we could be offended by:
1) Genital mutilation (an entirely religious concept)
2) Suicide bombing (an entirely religious concept)
3) Children not receiving vaccines, getting a poor education, or being indoctrinated at a young age to eschew critical thinking for fear of burning in hell.
4) And ultimately, the idea that we can't be good moral people without a book or god to tell us how, or that we only do good things because we have to be threatened with eternal torture, or bribed with eternal paradise. This is a concept that insults and degrades humanity at its very core.
@Mozared: Go
It needs to be carefully defined, yes, because of how it's used to control people. Any time someone demands or expects respect from others, I just want to say "WHY. WHAT did you do to deserve this thing?" Veterans and old people are especially prone to this behavior.
Grad, it's also damaging to tell kids they're sinners/cursed and that they will go to hell. Condemning kids is simply inhuman.
TaintedWisp, good point.
Though I strongly believe, there's another and better perspective than what those in the pulpit are saying (may they be believers or non-believers) when it comes to life whether or not God exists.
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
Meh.
The thing that saddens me the most is when I see things like this
I mean, of course there are nice religious people too, but usually they are taking it too far (like the Chick-fil-A thing against gay marriage, or sons/daughters are kicked out because they no longer believe in god).
Why don't you? Again, why does it need to be carefully defined for you to say such a thing?
@Mozared: Go
Why don't I try to define it? Because I don't need to. My life is just fine without the concept. Do people want me to respect them? My respect has no value, because my understanding of it is hollow.
Done.. reading all the thread i mean (hahahahaha, private joke sorry)
Where to begin ?, ahh yes the trivial stuff first (getting rid of it :) )
brrr EW... profusion of typing takes virtual space.. does little else (you never once talk about the op ("part of" "organized" ..or even what you feel about your beliefs...), it seems you do exactly the opposite of preaching, while dressing it up as such... again "brrrr"..
uhhh..? Eiviyn is so boring and aggressive ... ?? if i may be allowed a prayer (pun intended), he should never talk/type "for" other people.. (possibly, in this case, it would avoid a misrepresentation of people with the "no god" or "maybe no god" points of view .. and we would all be better off. (it seems he is precisely what he hates.. and we must all suffer for it.. it is just sad) (ohh and lol about you declaring "since this thread is now nothing but vitriolic attacks" while you are responsible for most of it... lollololol you are transparent dear typist, you always have been)...
Seems the question from the thread heading is mostly ignored.. big surprise, not!
Seems the thread could have been discussions like (i don't know.. uuhhh ..."drama pause" aaaaa got one)
for example:
my brother in law once told me.. "it is a shame you wont be there with us.." .. should i have been offended by that?
i've never tried to belittle anyone on the subject though i've had to suffer a little from it, .. everyone suffers .. such is life, fine.
if was up to me to choose (it is not), i would want people to suffer through the free will process to do the right things.. the merit is doing it because you want to.. not because you have to, no? And "organized religion" does a lot of different stuff (good or bad), but casting off other people is wrong.. plain wrong. Religious people individually are the same, good or bad, many set themselves apart from fellowmen.. it is sad.
"christians" or "muslims" or others, say that sort of thing like they are trivial.. "you and you and you = you good :) " "u and u and you : not.. :( "
may i dare to retort wow.. ridiculous!
Is it not weird that "affiliated believers" need to formalize stuff.. eve, the plague, the 99 virgins, the this and the that.. ???
Whatever force could have created us and everything.. (lol sorry don't mean to be rude to anyone, but we (as a race) know precious little, next to nothing really, so the "everything" bit / bid .. makes me laugh then cry out of pure sadness).. whatever force is, it is.. .. why pretend we can us humans understand or (much less) translate what it is or "wants" etc..?
What really pops out of me on the subject is clear: the notion of organization is anathema to stuff like faith or purpose.
We are individuals, a race evolving.. a social cobweb, a fuse on fire, a bunch of butterflies creating whirlwinds and in love with the flame that is ignited in us somewhere somehow. Some fill it with "organized religion" some with hubris some with sleuth some with snoopy some with evil some with being ketchup coated buttnaked singing in the streets...
wtf does this lead to.. to whatever we will do (again, it is.. no need to formalize it and get tangled into specifics uselessly loosing time casting off potential.. ) and i say that in all directions (purist of the science make me wet my pants with their strutting).
just my opinion, but .. i would have liked (in this very secluded corner of the universe) to have seen the "do you consider yourself.." part of the post, discussed..
yes i consider my self trapped by organizations i know little about, people i know not at all (politicians with politics and economy as their religion...) that speak in my name etc..
i consider i'm free, but i'm not free in the real world.. not really, even though i like "buying it" (like all who can, .. i'm implying a whole bunch of people are not even given that "recourse" (to feel free even though you are not)).
Further more even the most agnos-tic or a-theosian is forced to have an opinion, there is no real freedom from organized religion(s), just consider that for instance: everyone in times of extreme stress thanks something or someone for stuff happening...
So to recap (i still am baffled by the "christian roll calling" but whatever) ..
Yes i consider myself a product of civilization, and therefore a puppet of the art that came before me. Religion(s) being the most potent piece, i am unable to purely / truly think for myself on the issue.
Aspirations trunk faith, faith trunks thought.
i love a god of my choosing, i love all gods or creatures who love all, and those who are working at it. i despise the state of our race, so much potential, so little done.
in short, glhf and lets deal quickly with all who want/like to fu ck up other people on purpose (sorry, again private joke..)
(by the way, loved the G Carlin, not his best by far, but it made me compulsively type this : love the 7 words RiP Carlin, have fun wherever you are)
@Saltpeter: Go
about respect.. uhhhh.. "i dont bla bla bla"
lol, like you can or would want to do without... you do respect or disrespect stuff internaly.. like everyone else.. it is not really something you can choose to ignore.
but whatever gets you happy...
i knew i'd left for something... :^)
the concept is so essential it supersedes any notion you would have on it.
When you were a baby and then a kid you choose people you'd respect and others you wouldn't, "familiarity breeds contempt" or "opposites attract" or "time served" or other unrelated (nothing to do with you making decisions) where deciding factors, you lived it before you could understand it, and ... define it.
Seems your posture is weird.. someone old requires respect? yes .. no.. don't care....? A baby deserves respect (you wouldn't do something improper to it or in front of it) ... your kid sibling, your mother etc.... funny to imagine how you'd define yourself without the concept (impossible but funny) ...
i get where the idea comes from, but it is not possible to be coherent without stuff like "respect" "lust" ""aspirations" "love" "pains" "shortcomings" "errors" etc
I meant: why don't you say "Why? What did you do to deserve this thing?".
Saltpeter is doing something very intriguing. I get it totally man. :D (or do I?)
houndofbaskerville, good points there man. The way you look at things is new to me personally. Must assimilate. :) Thank you for that post.
edit:
This discussion from QnA is very nice:
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
Ya really. Lol.
Let me just drop these here...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankh
http://www.christianbiblereference.org/faq_BibleTrue.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apotheosis ...
Oh and this.
She must be quiet.