At the moment Christ is already being preached in almost every nation(with the advent of Satellite tv, the internet , missionaries etc). Egypt , Iraq, Russia, India, distant islands etc. So it wont be too long before every nation and people has heard the gospel.
There is an interesting Jesus-related thing going on in Russia these days. You may have heard about the 'pussy riot' thing. 3 chicks had a dance and sang a song in a church, and it wasn't a part of traditional christian ritual. And they had been sentenced to imprisonment for 2 years. The russian society separated into 2 parts: one approves the sentence and the second one disapproves.
Now the interesting observation: the part of the society which agree that girls must spend in jail 2 years for a dance in a church consist of poor, uneducated, the lower stratum of society, small town inhabitants, countrymen, old, tv lovers, etc. And most of them consider themselves as christians. They believe in Jesus and attend churches. And they express hate to the girls.
Another part of the society disapprove the punishment. This part consist of well educated, intelligent people, big cities habitants, high and middle class stratum of society, young, internet users, etc. And most of them are not christians. And they say to the christians "hey, your Jesus used to say about love, why don't you stop hating the girls and forgive them?" And the christians, especially the orthodox ones answer like this: "we don't care what Jesus say, they must pay badly, we'd even kill them, it would be fair".
It looks strange, even absurd, but looks like modern atheists are better and kinder people in terms of christianity, then the people who call themsleves christians.
Grad, good points there. But what if God's "unchanging" nature means like a sort of personality. Surely, if a person changes his mind doesn't mean he's a completely different person right?
Just a thought.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
1. I doubt every tribe/nation at the time shared an equal level of such
depravity and evil.
The Aztecs sacrificed 20000 people per year to their gods in brutal ways. If you're familiar with ancient cultures at all you'd know that all the "moral depravity" you listed was the order of the day back then. Also, why is God's intervention confined to the ancient past? Is it so that these claims can be as unverifiable as possible? So that God can have an excuse to send skeptics to hell when they don't take these archaic religious texts for their word?
Quote:
2. No, God does not care only for the Israelites. These nations were
removed from his sight because of the reasons I mentioned in my last
post.
So where was God during the Stalinist regime or any other evil empire? I'm sure that people in Stalin's & Hitler's death camps prayed their asses off before getting executed. There have been enough brutal regimes & civilizations, and you're fooling yourself if you think the Canaanites were the incarnation of evil. They were humans just like everybody else. I always got the impression that the God of the bible cared more about the fact that they worshipped other gods than he cared about their overall immorality.
Quote:
3. Why should I go out of my way to question the judgements of God in an
effort to prove him a liar and evil?. Especially when the Bible teaches
the contrary and tells you why those nations were removed.
Yes, I get that you're coming from the perspective that God can do whatever he wants because he's the creator of the universe, and it's not our place to question it or we'll go to hell. I'm coming from the perspective that the bible is written by bronze-age men who impose their morality on the fictional god that they invented. This is why God advocates genocide, slavery & rape, even if the bible does provide some paltry excuses once in a while. I mean, just look at this: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/gods_killings.html
Quote:
4. The promise of eternal life is valid if you believe and receive that
truth, and start living your life for God. In all fairness, we are given
choice to either accept or reject God. Both options have their end
results.
I could say the same about Zeus, Wotan & Thor.
Quote:
If you think the genocide in the Old testament was heavy, then you
haven`t read what will befall all the earth in the last days according
to the new testament.
Yes, the bible is one of the most violent books in all of fiction. So again I ask, why do you pretend that genocide is a-ok? The Nazis committed genocide and the human experiments they ran were monstrous. So did we steamroll in and kill every last German? No. We held the Nuremburg trials and imprisoned those who were responsible. That is justice. God's genocides are little more than bronze-age brutality/revenge.
You say that "god removed them from his sight" instead of "god ordered them slaughtered down to the last child." If God were just, he would have actually considered the former option. Physically remove all the evil-doers from existence instead of forcing people to kill on his behalf, and then punishing them if they don't. That's what a real god would do. The account of the Israelis walking in & murdering their way across the middle-east reads like nothing more than a long-winded justification for why they can kill whoever they want & do whatever they want, as opposed to being an actual legitimate account from the creator of this universe.
Quote:
Point is, God is the same in the old and new testaments.
The bible is clear on who is going to inherit eternal life, and those that are going to be destroyed/tormented with Satan.
Jews and christians are not favored anymore over those that never really knew Jesus or came to an understanding of God
"The Lord is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and rich in love. The Lord is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made". (Psalms 145: 8-9)
That's a nice theory but the bible says different:
“Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but through Me” (John 14:6).
“There is salvation in no one else…no other name under heaven…by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).
My personal favorites are "Don't laugh", "Don't get circumcised", "Don't be a Jew", "Hate your own life" and "Wait and come for 1335 days." Luckily I'm not a Jew, so I'm all set.
Grad, good points there. But what if God's "unchanging" nature means like a sort of personality. Surely, if a person changes his mind doesn't mean he's a completely different person right?
Aside from being spared from the fires and tortures of (perhaps brutal porn) of hell.
Kidding aside, does anyone know what Salvation really means?
The Zizz,
a good question would be, "why do we see such things as wicked?"
Also, Satan will definitely not torment anyone. He'll be tormented with the rest of the souls. I don't think Satan tormenting people is anywhere in the Gospels.
A little bit of advice: don't argue with a religious person about the contents of their holy fairytale book. Don't say stuff like "but God contradicts himself on page 42". Why? Because:
It validates the fairytale book, if someone is willing to discuss the contents seriously, it must be true or at least worthy of in-depth inspection
they always have some contrived explanation for everything (the one about the sun having an orbit of it's own to explain the bible quote about it moving was very good)
if they don't, they'll go to some crackpot creationist site and find one
Ask them instead why the other guy's holy book isn't true, or why people like them always choose the religion of their birth as the true one, or whip out the good ol' "we're all atheists, I just went one god further" saying. Anything is better than starting what is basically a "batman beats superman" discussion.
Best thing you can do, don't talk to them at all. I really think it's rude and cruel. It's like walking up to a cripple, trying to kick out his crutch from under him and then trying to steal it. Of course you won't manage to do that, because they've had it all their lives and will fight tooth and nail to keep it. The slave collar becomes so familiar and ingrown, that trying to take it off feels like a much bigger violation than wearing it.
A little bit of advice: don't argue with a religious person about the
contents of their holy fairytale book. Don't say stuff like "but God
contradicts himself on page 42". Why? Because:
It validates the fairytale book, if someone is willing to discuss the
contents seriously, it must be true or at least worthy of in-depth
inspection
they always have some contrived explanation for everything (the one
about the sun having an orbit of it's own to explain the bible quote
about it moving was very good)
if they don't, they'll go to some crackpot creationist site and find one
Ask them instead why the other guy's holy book isn't true, or why people
like them always choose the religion of their birth as the true one, or
whip out the good ol' "we're all atheists, I just went one god further"
saying. Anything is better than starting what is basically a "batman
beats superman" discussion.
Best thing you can do, don't talk to them at all. I really think it's
rude and cruel. It's like walking up to a cripple, trying to kick out
his crutch from under him and then trying to steal it. Of course you
won't manage to do that, because they've had it all their lives and will
fight tooth and nail to keep it. The slave collar becomes so familiar
and ingrown, that trying to take it off feels like a much bigger
violation than wearing it.
You've pretty much disregarded your own advice with this proverbial airing of dirty laundry.
This may sound a little tongue-in-cheek but are you implying that a cripple would be better off without mechanical assistance?
On a non-related note, I think I learned more about the bible from this thread than I have in my younger years of going to church.
I don't know it very well myself, as I'm simply not that into reading/text analysis, but from what I have been exposed to, I believe many of the bibles texts are parable-ic in nature and should not be taken literally. Their true message is hidden in the moral behind the stories told in the text. This is probably one of the reasons why it is often misinterpreted.
Oh, I saw "don't argue with a religious person" and figured you were paradoxically touting a non-confrontational stance. But, you were just providing an alternative method of attack. I didn't mean to single you out.
I believe when an Apologist comes into the argument or discussion that they in part are willing to test their own waters. Shutting the discussion down doesn't help.
It's safe to argue and discuss with Christians. Don't worry. ;)
Grad's arguments are well thought of, and I'd give him due credit for at least pointing them out and writing them down.
@Doubleclick123: i mean the reason he killed the Egyptians was a fully selfish reason, for his personal gain...
----you said 'he' also... maybe i should of used "it" or "thing"? haha
@Gradius12:So the answer to your question: why can't we create life even though we can come to understand it? The same reason why we can't stop the tides from coming in & out even though we know how they work. The same reason we can't blow up suns or travel to other star systems even though we understand those too.
----Actually we can do the things you listed above... we can stop the tides from comming in and out. We can also travel to other star systems also...
@Bilxor:I think religion was a necessary crutch for bronze age humanity, but thanks to great advancements in science and politics it is now counter-productive and unneeded.
----By deffinition religion is never needed and also it can not be a crutch either. thats like saying just because you think something it makes you worse for it. not even possible. Believing in something that can not be disproven is not a bad or wrong thing, at best its "whatever!" lol.
Quote from TheZizz:
Whoever is wondering why God doesn't just eliminate all wickedness from the planet is all too sure that they stand to benefit.
----
the only way he could do this is take away the god given right to 'free will' other wise everyone (yes EVERYONE) would just be brain dead drones to say 'yes sir' as he commands, not to mention this conversation would be void. haha
@GnaReffotsirk:Kidding aside, does anyone know what Salvation really means?
think of it as your friends are going to have a party, a great party where everyone is invited, but not you.... now you know what salvation is. aka invite to the party. and im guessing you know where/what they consider their religous party is. :D
There is an interesting Jesus-related thing going on in Russia these days. You may have heard about the 'pussy riot' thing. 3 chicks had a dance and sang a song in a church, and it wasn't a part of traditional christian ritual. And they had been sentenced to imprisonment for 2 years. The russian society separated into 2 parts: one approves the sentence and the second one disapproves.
Now the interesting observation: the part of the society which agree that girls must spend in jail 2 years for a dance in a church consist of poor, uneducated, the lower stratum of society, small town inhabitants, countrymen, old, tv lovers, etc. And most of them consider themselves as christians. They believe in Jesus and attend churches. And they express hate to the girls.
Another part of the society disapprove the punishment. This part consist of well educated, intelligent people, big cities habitants, high and middle class stratum of society, young, internet users, etc. And most of them are not christians. And they say to the christians "hey, your Jesus used to say about love, why don't you stop hating the girls and forgive them?" And the christians, especially the orthodox ones answer like this: "we don't care what Jesus say, they must pay badly, we'd even kill them, it would be fair".
It looks strange, even absurd, but looks like modern atheists are better and kinder people in terms of christianity, then the people who call themsleves christians.
This religion stuff getting boring.
So who are,
A Determinist?
A Physicalist?
A Nihilist?
A Gödel or Turing?
A Quantum or classic logic "believer"?
Grad, good points there. But what if God's "unchanging" nature means like a sort of personality. Surely, if a person changes his mind doesn't mean he's a completely different person right?
Just a thought.
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
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Curse PremiumThe Aztecs sacrificed 20000 people per year to their gods in brutal ways. If you're familiar with ancient cultures at all you'd know that all the "moral depravity" you listed was the order of the day back then. Also, why is God's intervention confined to the ancient past? Is it so that these claims can be as unverifiable as possible? So that God can have an excuse to send skeptics to hell when they don't take these archaic religious texts for their word?
So where was God during the Stalinist regime or any other evil empire? I'm sure that people in Stalin's & Hitler's death camps prayed their asses off before getting executed. There have been enough brutal regimes & civilizations, and you're fooling yourself if you think the Canaanites were the incarnation of evil. They were humans just like everybody else. I always got the impression that the God of the bible cared more about the fact that they worshipped other gods than he cared about their overall immorality.
Yes, I get that you're coming from the perspective that God can do whatever he wants because he's the creator of the universe, and it's not our place to question it or we'll go to hell. I'm coming from the perspective that the bible is written by bronze-age men who impose their morality on the fictional god that they invented. This is why God advocates genocide, slavery & rape, even if the bible does provide some paltry excuses once in a while. I mean, just look at this: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/gods_killings.html
I could say the same about Zeus, Wotan & Thor.
Yes, the bible is one of the most violent books in all of fiction. So again I ask, why do you pretend that genocide is a-ok? The Nazis committed genocide and the human experiments they ran were monstrous. So did we steamroll in and kill every last German? No. We held the Nuremburg trials and imprisoned those who were responsible. That is justice. God's genocides are little more than bronze-age brutality/revenge.
You say that "god removed them from his sight" instead of "god ordered them slaughtered down to the last child." If God were just, he would have actually considered the former option. Physically remove all the evil-doers from existence instead of forcing people to kill on his behalf, and then punishing them if they don't. That's what a real god would do. The account of the Israelis walking in & murdering their way across the middle-east reads like nothing more than a long-winded justification for why they can kill whoever they want & do whatever they want, as opposed to being an actual legitimate account from the creator of this universe.
Disagree. God isn't even the same within each testament.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/all_saved.html
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/castrated.html
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/anger.html
That's a nice theory but the bible says different:
“Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but through Me” (John 14:6).
“There is salvation in no one else…no other name under heaven…by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).
Ok maybe that's not entirely true. There are actually 189 ways to get saved: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/saved.html
My personal favorites are "Don't laugh", "Don't get circumcised", "Don't be a Jew", "Hate your own life" and "Wait and come for 1335 days." Luckily I'm not a Jew, so I'm all set.
Hey your theory is as good as mine. :P
Whoever is wondering why God doesn't just eliminate all wickedness from the planet is all too sure that they stand to benefit.
Btw, what is "Salvation"?
Aside from being spared from the fires and tortures of (perhaps brutal porn) of hell.
Kidding aside, does anyone know what Salvation really means?
The Zizz,
a good question would be, "why do we see such things as wicked?"
Also, Satan will definitely not torment anyone. He'll be tormented with the rest of the souls. I don't think Satan tormenting people is anywhere in the Gospels.
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
What things?
@Gradius12: Go
A little bit of advice: don't argue with a religious person about the contents of their holy fairytale book. Don't say stuff like "but God contradicts himself on page 42". Why? Because:
Ask them instead why the other guy's holy book isn't true, or why people like them always choose the religion of their birth as the true one, or whip out the good ol' "we're all atheists, I just went one god further" saying. Anything is better than starting what is basically a "batman beats superman" discussion.
Best thing you can do, don't talk to them at all. I really think it's rude and cruel. It's like walking up to a cripple, trying to kick out his crutch from under him and then trying to steal it. Of course you won't manage to do that, because they've had it all their lives and will fight tooth and nail to keep it. The slave collar becomes so familiar and ingrown, that trying to take it off feels like a much bigger violation than wearing it.
You've pretty much disregarded your own advice with this proverbial airing of dirty laundry.
This may sound a little tongue-in-cheek but are you implying that a cripple would be better off without mechanical assistance?
On a non-related note, I think I learned more about the bible from this thread than I have in my younger years of going to church.
I don't know it very well myself, as I'm simply not that into reading/text analysis, but from what I have been exposed to, I believe many of the bibles texts are parable-ic in nature and should not be taken literally. Their true message is hidden in the moral behind the stories told in the text. This is probably one of the reasons why it is often misinterpreted.
No. All I'm saying is that religious people are crippled in childhood and their holy books are their "mechanical assistance".
Not sure what the "airing dirty laundry" comment is about...
@Tolkfan: Go
Oh, I saw "don't argue with a religious person" and figured you were paradoxically touting a non-confrontational stance. But, you were just providing an alternative method of attack. I didn't mean to single you out.
Cookie for Deadzergling btw - sorry it's late, had to sleep.
@madlibrarian: Go
That's okay, part of my beliefs includes forgiveness. Not sure I'll let you get away with sleeping next time though!
Seems I was off about this getting locked before 120 posts, some fairly clean mud slinging this time :)
I believe when an Apologist comes into the argument or discussion that they in part are willing to test their own waters. Shutting the discussion down doesn't help.
It's safe to argue and discuss with Christians. Don't worry. ;)
Grad's arguments are well thought of, and I'd give him due credit for at least pointing them out and writing them down.
In that regard, this topic is very interesting.
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
http://www.duntemann.com/likewakepage.htm
@Doubleclick123: i mean the reason he killed the Egyptians was a fully selfish reason, for his personal gain...
----you said 'he' also... maybe i should of used "it" or "thing"? haha
@Gradius12:So the answer to your question: why can't we create life even though we can come to understand it? The same reason why we can't stop the tides from coming in & out even though we know how they work. The same reason we can't blow up suns or travel to other star systems even though we understand those too.
----Actually we can do the things you listed above... we can stop the tides from comming in and out. We can also travel to other star systems also...
@Bilxor:I think religion was a necessary crutch for bronze age humanity, but thanks to great advancements in science and politics it is now counter-productive and unneeded.
----By deffinition religion is never needed and also it can not be a crutch either. thats like saying just because you think something it makes you worse for it. not even possible. Believing in something that can not be disproven is not a bad or wrong thing, at best its "whatever!" lol.
Quote from TheZizz:
Whoever is wondering why God doesn't just eliminate all wickedness from the planet is all too sure that they stand to benefit.
----
the only way he could do this is take away the god given right to 'free will' other wise everyone (yes EVERYONE) would just be brain dead drones to say 'yes sir' as he commands, not to mention this conversation would be void. haha
@GnaReffotsirk:Kidding aside, does anyone know what Salvation really means?
think of it as your friends are going to have a party, a great party where everyone is invited, but not you.... now you know what salvation is. aka invite to the party. and im guessing you know where/what they consider their religous party is. :D
I give up, I can't read this anymore.