One of the key points to remember is the differences between the Old Testaments depiction of God, and the New Testaments.
The old is a particularly harsh and judgemental God, the new a far kinder and fairer God.
Not saying that there aren't moments of kindness / wickedness in each, but if we had to more broadly characterise the Gods in each section, this is what most people come to the conclusion of.
As such, I find it hard to take the Old Testaments God seriously. I view him more as a construct of fear to enforce laws and rights and as a justification for unlawful acts. The New Testaments God seems to adhere more to what I would call 'Christian values'. In light of this, I would suggest analysing the two sides of God as separate individuals.
Key differences for Science though, is that 99.9% of scientists will not claim something as fact until it has been proved or disproved - God or otherwise - to at least a five sigma level I believe. The other requirement for scientific fact / evidence is that all of its (well, so far) claims can be verified by repeating them. You're not going to doubt the fact that you breathe if you can do it again surely? So why would you doubt the fact the various facts science can claim as they can prove them again?
I agree on the point that science can be seen as a cult - no question about that. But, science can and will adopt new practices / theories if needed, something which I believe religion is far less willing to do. And this is both the problem and benefit of living in an organised religious sect - their moral code might be spot on, but quite often it's their practices that are flawed.
"And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD." So the Israelites did this."
I never knew the Christian god had a selfish side! Killing people and forcing them to pursue them, that's grade A selfish.
Quote from Doubleclick123:
I just had a revelation (get it?)
"And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD." So the Israelites did this."
I never knew the Christian god had a selfish side! Killing people and forcing them to pursue them, that's grade A selfish.
----
well according the the bible, he fried a couple cities, he flooded the entire planet, he cause countless plagues, killed millions and millions of people. and you think he is selfish? if you had a cousin like this he would be shot while hung with electricity passing threw his body after they injected him. LMAO
@madlibrarian:
science 'fact' changes almost daily and certainly every so many years.... after all the world is not flat. also if you know of it, chaos theory, is verrrrry outer limits kind of stuff.
Quote from Doubleclick123:
I just had a revelation (get it?)
"And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD." So the Israelites did this."
I never knew the Christian god had a selfish side! Killing people and forcing them to pursue them, that's grade A selfish.
well according the the bible, he fried a couple cities, he flooded the entire planet, he cause countless plagues, killed millions and millions of people. and you think he is selfish? if you had a cousin like this he would be shot while hung with electricity passing threw his body after they injected him. LMAO
I mean unlike the other reasons why he fried cities, flooded the entire planet, caused countless plagues, and killed millions and millions of people; is because they broke laws that are now also laws today (Most of them at least *cough prostitution*) Anyway, i'm not saying killing them is just, i mean the reason he killed the Egyptians was a fully selfish reason, for his personal gain.
Like others have said uncertainty is fundemental in science, to throw common sense out of the window when necessary and not be afraid of 'not knowing' if it's fact. E.g. science saw the facts that we only can percieve 5% of the universe (95% being dark matter/energy) and embraced it because that what the evidence was pointing to. If you saw two regular childs and one said he knows all while the other said he knew nothing, who would you think was smartest?
Life is also indeed mysterious and no one has ever been able to replicate it, does that mean some almighty force or deity created it and controls the universe? Maybe, you could see it as a hypothesis but it is more likely than a coincidence? Nobody knows since deities can't be proven and that's the problem: Resorting to a deity to explain things is a paradox since a deity can't be explained, there is no what, why, when, where etc. when it comes to a deity, it just is. Scientists can asks where and when the big bang took place and what happened before it for example you can't do that with a god.
Religion doesn't really have to clash with science it's good for two diffrent reasons (Even though i fail to see the one for religion i suppose i respect that others could) it's like having a bag with a coke and a laptop, aslong as they don't spill over eachother there's nothing to worry about. (<- Stole that from somewhere, link if you recognize (Also it's funny cause a laptop can't spill over the coke (The laptop is science)))
Malachi 3:6 - "For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."
Numbers 23:19 - “God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent.”
James 1:17 - "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
God is supposed to unchanging. Immutability is supposed to be one of his traits, along with omnipotence, omnibenevolence, etc. God is supposed to be perfection realized, so he is not allowed to change his mind. I think we can only assume that man's account of god is flawed.
let me ask you this. in this 'modern age' meaning 2012, why is it that we can not create life? with all the science that we now posses. we can map a human brain, we can determine what cells in the body are cancer, we can find out exactly what is wrong with anyone down to the DNA that a person has. but one thing that is not possible is when your dead, they bring you back to life, good as new... you might want to argue with a person can be called dead for 5-10minutes and they revive them... this is not what i am saying, what iam trying to say is that george died by drowning in this own pool yesterday and they found him 36hrs later floating, why not just 'revive' him? because it can not be done. now the question based on "prove god exists", show me a guy who has been saved from death after 24hrs from 'science'. The only time anyone has been so called, brought back from the dead, was you know who in the bible. also science does not disprove the 'creation' theory, if anything it proves the perfection of a creation theory. god sappose to be the smartest 'thing' that ever existed. so when 'science' says this and that about anything in 'new' advances in technology or information it just shows how 'smart' god had to have been. or no? :P
Science works through deduction & inference. Our best scanning electron microscopes cannot see actual nucleotide connections on DNA. It's simply too small. Furthermore, creating life requires knowledge not just of DNA but how the proteins fold & damn near everything else is going to work too. How much info can DNA store? It's near-infinite because the information can be combined in many different ways, the same way that music can. One recent estimate shows that a human can store 295 exabytes of information. And that's only 1%. The other 99% is junk DNA.
So the answer to your question: why can't we create life even though we can come to understand it? The same reason why we can't stop the tides from coming in & out even though we know how they work. The same reason we can't blow up suns or travel to other star systems even though we understand those too.
Religion doesn't really have to clash with science it's good for two diffrent reasons
I disagree. Religion makes factual statements about reality. So theists shouldn't be offended when they're told that their version of reality is wrong. You don't see theoretical physicists getting offended that someone is challenging one of their theories, etc, because that's the order of the day in science.
You make a good point. And this is mostly why I think Science at the
moment is so puffed-up. It has this image of "we know everything" but in
reality it knows very little.
For this reason also, I think there is so much "looking up to" granted
to science by many people, that whatever "science" is supposedly saying
people immediately attribute it as truth, and an absolute, infallible
truth so that Science and their public figures seem to look like a cult.
This is true to an extent. But I think everyone would agree that the person who claims to "know it all" or know something for a 100% fact is not doing science correctly. Science is different from religion in that it strives to question itself and prove its own theories wrong, whereas religion only seeks to find proof for its already per-determined conclusions. Many people say that science never gives irrefutable proof of anything. Science is humble.
The idea of god sitting there and being patient with a group of peoples hoping that they will change, when he is supposed to be omniscient know these things already, kind of confounds me.0.And I don't expect God actually gave them any warning before he wiped out their entire civilization, since, you know, that would be too reasonable. Sure, I can grant that Caananites were wicked people. 1.Too bad that in the ancient world, these types of crimes were going on in every other part of the planet. 2.So we're expected to believe that God only cares about the Israelites and that's why he condoned genocide in this case? Everyone was slaughtered: infants, newborns, pregnant women, the elderly, children, etc. Genocide is the worst crime imaginable. 3.So why do you worship a God who's morals are no better than a bronze-age caveman's?
4.What happened to Christ dieing for us and thereby redeeming all our sins? When Jesus was traveling through Samaritan territory, his disciples asked if God was ready to rain fire down upon them. Jesus's response was "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them." What happened to that? Did God change his mind about genocide then? Not only did God command violence in that case, but will punish you if you DON'T kill them all:
0. We cant know this for sure(I believe they would have be warned somehow, someway). Still, doubt they would have payed any heed(as is evident in human history until now). People know what is instinctively wrong and yet do it anyway. Even more so because they assume there will be no consequences to their actions.
1. I doubt every tribe/nation at the time shared an equal level of such depravity and evil.
2. No, God does not care only for the Israelites. These nations were removed from his sight because of the reasons I mentioned in my last post.
3. Why should I go out of my way to question the judgements of God in an effort to prove him a liar and evil?. Especially when the Bible teaches the contrary and tells you why those nations were removed. I worship him because he is the only God, and thus would rather be on his good side. Ignoring the truth wont change it. Pretending he does not exist will not change it. I can only trust that his judgements are just(Since who else is powerful enough or intelligent enough to judge on such a grand scale?). Their own greats sins led them to destruction.
4. The promise of eternal life is valid if you believe and receive that truth, and start living your life for God. In all fairness, we are given choice to either accept or reject God. Both options have their end results.
Concerning the end days: The New Testament states: And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people. He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water." (Revelation 14:6-7)
If you think the genocide in the Old testament was heavy, then you haven`t read what will befall all the earth in the last days according to the new testament.
Point is, God is the same in the old and new testaments. Sin and evil leads to great destruction(Our deliberate evil will come with its consequences), but God obviously wants to save you from it(Thats called Mercy). That is the entire message of the bible.
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.(2 Peter 3:9)
You are of course free and intelligent enough to make up your own mind as to whether God Is good or evil. Based on your own logical reasoning and calculative deductions.
4. The promise of eternal life is valid if you believe and receive that truth, and start living your life for God. In all fairness, we are given choice to either accept or reject God. Both options have their end results.
This is something I've never understood. Why would there be two options? What if I honestly just don't know? I can't imagine any God would be so terrible as to leave everybody in complete doubt and then in the end punish everybody who didn't blindly believe in him. It might sound like a lazy way out, but I do kind of expect God, if he is real, to forgive at least agnosts upon death. I can imagine if he'd punish outright atheists or people who believe in a 'pagan' God, or heretics or satanists or such, but why agnosts?
Wasnt this just be "do you believe in something and why"
If everyone were to just answer that question and bugger off the thread'd be boring as fuck. It'd be a collected list of people on mapster who consider themselves religious. Might as well read a dictionary or phone book. It's the discussion that makes it fun.
This is something I've never understood. Why would there be two options? What if I honestly just don't know? I can't imagine any God would be so terrible as to leave everybody in complete doubt and then in the end punish everybody who didn't blindly believe in him. It might sound like a lazy way out, but I do kind of expect God, if he is real, to forgive at least agnosts upon death. I can imagine if he'd punish outright atheists or people who believe in a 'pagan' God, or heretics or satanists or such, but why agnosts?
"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."(Revelations 11-15)
All of mankind will be judged according to their works and deeds in this life. I would assume fairly as (Proverbs 11: The Lord hates dishonest scales).
Christians do not automatically gain `free pass to heaven` ticket as many of them would like to believe;
And Jesus said "Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?". Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' (Matthew 7:22-23)
"Blessed are those who wash their robes(Repent and turn away from their sins and evil), that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."(Revelation 22:14-15)
The bible is clear on who is going to inherit eternal life, and those that are going to be destroyed/tormented with Satan.
Jews and christians are not favored anymore over those that never really knew Jesus or came to an understanding of God "The Lord is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and rich in love. The Lord is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made".(Psalms 145: 8-9)
My grandparents for instance, never had the opportunity of knowing Jesus(Like many others). Will that ignorance automatically send them to destruction?. Based on the above scriptures I would certainly think not. The same God cares for each and every person he has created.
Cookie for whoever can identify which film this ridiculously famous quote is from :
The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
Your reasoning works for me, but then the post I originally quoted seems a bit weird, no? I quoted it specifically because I thought you were saying "you either accept god and [have a chance to] get into heaven, or you don't and automatically go to hell". What then did you mean with "In all fairness, we are given choice to either accept or reject God. Both options have their end results." ?
Your reasoning works for me, but then the post I originally quoted seems a bit weird, no? I quoted it specifically because I thought you were saying "you either accept god and [have a chance to] get into heaven, or you don't and automatically go to hell". What then did you mean with "In all fairness, we are given choice to either accept or reject God. Both options have their end results." ?
Oh, yes, I understand what you are saying now. For the great majority of people, the gospel of Jesus christ will be preached to them before the end comes. They can accept and repent, or refuse and continue in their godless ways and wickedness. I commented on the ignorant in my previous post. So, indeed the post you originally quoted from me did not include that element of true ignorance(aka dying at a very young age, never hearing the gospel etc) Again, for the majority of the world:
And the Good News about the Kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, so that all nations will hear it; and then the end will come.(Matthew 24:14)
As a side note, its interesting to see how Jesus knew he would be preached through-out the whole world, Some two thousand years ago. This is just one example of fulfilled bible prophecy.
At the moment Christ is already being preached in almost every nation(with the advent of Satellite tv, the internet , missionaries etc). Egypt , Iraq, Russia, India, distant islands etc. So it wont be too long before every nation and people has heard the gospel.
Atheists will be without excuse on judgment day. Its not a Christian`s job to go around converting anyone. Christians are only instructed to (Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Matthew 5:16)
For since the creation of the world. God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools (Romans 1:20-23)
I will be better off in the hell anyway. The concept of real eternal life is just pure madness anyway... think that you are running windows forever and you have noway to reset or reinstall it...
A very interesting, albeit polarized, discussion so far.
I think religion was a necessary crutch for bronze age humanity, but thanks to great advancements in science and politics it is now counter-productive and unneeded. There are two points I want to make:
1. I don't think the tenets of the three big Middle Eastern religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) are reconcilable with the scientific process and therefore undermine our capability and desire to understand the universe. Those claiming to be "religious scientists" who search out scientific support for the happenings in their holy texts are doing science backwards: searching out an answer that fits congenially with their presupposed ideas. It has come to a point where religious people are saying that God, or sometimes the devil, has made it look like evolution is true just to test our "faith." This is infallible logic, and is therefore faulty. I know I'm getting side-tracked by the creationism debate, but this is also just an example of how religion derails science. Whales have hip girdle bones. Chicken have DNA coded for creating teeth. I mean come on. And let's look at astronomy... supposedly the entire universe is less than 10,000 years old by even the most liberal religious estimates. We can look at millions of stars in the sky that are over 10,000 light years away, meaning the light has been traveling for much longer than 10,000 years. If you want to believe in god, you can, but you have to believe he is a fantastically deceptive god.
2. The belief and support of religion does not make people better or more ethical; it actually has the opposite effect. Holy scriptures contains some meaningful passages about being a good neighbor and positive human being, but also condone murder, genocide, infanticide, rape, molestation, war, a huge list of other things that I believe are never OK. You can't say "let's ignore the bad parts and only do the good parts" because this type of cherry-picking is completely subjective. If it says in cold hard text that certain behaviors are ok, those with varying degrees of zealousness and literary understanding will act accordingly.
I've had similar thoughts at times about which would in fact be better, but just leave your hand on a burner on high setting for 5 minutes, then imagine that going on all the time for all your body forever. Or if you don't like that analogy, use an absess tooth or kidney stones, only for your whole body forever. One might think you'd eventually get used to the pain, it wouldn't even hurt. However it really doesn't, the longer it drags on it gets worse. Like reading Twilight or listening to Justin Bieber.
I have no clue what one could do to keep occupied for eternity in Heaven, but being bored sounds pretty amazing compared to that.
Oh, yes, I understand what you are saying now. For the great majority of people, the gospel of Jesus christ will be preached to them before the end comes. They can accept and repent, or refuse and continue in their godless ways and wickedness. I commented on the ignorant in my previous post. So, indeed the post you originally quoted from me did not include that element of true ignorance(aka dying at a very young age, never hearing the gospel etc) Again, for the majority of the world:
So then your point is indeed that anyone who doesn't 'accept god' ('become a christian' or whatever that may mean) will be smited, except those who have never had a chance to reform? Which basically means you're also telling me I'm in for a ticket downwards unless I convert between now and the moment I die. Is that correct?
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@Gradius12: Go
One of the key points to remember is the differences between the Old Testaments depiction of God, and the New Testaments.
The old is a particularly harsh and judgemental God, the new a far kinder and fairer God.
Not saying that there aren't moments of kindness / wickedness in each, but if we had to more broadly characterise the Gods in each section, this is what most people come to the conclusion of.
As such, I find it hard to take the Old Testaments God seriously. I view him more as a construct of fear to enforce laws and rights and as a justification for unlawful acts. The New Testaments God seems to adhere more to what I would call 'Christian values'. In light of this, I would suggest analysing the two sides of God as separate individuals.
@GnaReffotsirk: Go
Key differences for Science though, is that 99.9% of scientists will not claim something as fact until it has been proved or disproved - God or otherwise - to at least a five sigma level I believe. The other requirement for scientific fact / evidence is that all of its (well, so far) claims can be verified by repeating them. You're not going to doubt the fact that you breathe if you can do it again surely? So why would you doubt the fact the various facts science can claim as they can prove them again? I agree on the point that science can be seen as a cult - no question about that. But, science can and will adopt new practices / theories if needed, something which I believe religion is far less willing to do. And this is both the problem and benefit of living in an organised religious sect - their moral code might be spot on, but quite often it's their practices that are flawed.
I just had a revelation (get it?)
"And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD." So the Israelites did this."
I never knew the Christian god had a selfish side! Killing people and forcing them to pursue them, that's grade A selfish.
Quote from Doubleclick123:
I just had a revelation (get it?)
"And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD." So the Israelites did this."
I never knew the Christian god had a selfish side! Killing people and forcing them to pursue them, that's grade A selfish.
----
well according the the bible, he fried a couple cities, he flooded the entire planet, he cause countless plagues, killed millions and millions of people. and you think he is selfish? if you had a cousin like this he would be shot while hung with electricity passing threw his body after they injected him. LMAO
@madlibrarian:
science 'fact' changes almost daily and certainly every so many years.... after all the world is not flat. also if you know of it, chaos theory, is verrrrry outer limits kind of stuff.
I mean unlike the other reasons why he fried cities, flooded the entire planet, caused countless plagues, and killed millions and millions of people; is because they broke laws that are now also laws today (Most of them at least *cough prostitution*) Anyway, i'm not saying killing them is just, i mean the reason he killed the Egyptians was a fully selfish reason, for his personal gain.
Also:
HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY KNOW THAT GOD IS A HE?
I believe in facts, not religion. Religion is a great alternative to the parts not yet covered by facts though.
@tdhsst: Go
Like others have said uncertainty is fundemental in science, to throw common sense out of the window when necessary and not be afraid of 'not knowing' if it's fact. E.g. science saw the facts that we only can percieve 5% of the universe (95% being dark matter/energy) and embraced it because that what the evidence was pointing to. If you saw two regular childs and one said he knows all while the other said he knew nothing, who would you think was smartest?
Life is also indeed mysterious and no one has ever been able to replicate it, does that mean some almighty force or deity created it and controls the universe? Maybe, you could see it as a hypothesis but it is more likely than a coincidence? Nobody knows since deities can't be proven and that's the problem: Resorting to a deity to explain things is a paradox since a deity can't be explained, there is no what, why, when, where etc. when it comes to a deity, it just is. Scientists can asks where and when the big bang took place and what happened before it for example you can't do that with a god.
Religion doesn't really have to clash with science it's good for two diffrent reasons (Even though i fail to see the one for religion i suppose i respect that others could) it's like having a bag with a coke and a laptop, aslong as they don't spill over eachother there's nothing to worry about. (<- Stole that from somewhere, link if you recognize (Also it's funny cause a laptop can't spill over the coke (The laptop is science)))
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Curse PremiumGna & madlib:
Malachi 3:6 - "For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."
Numbers 23:19 - “God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent.”
James 1:17 - "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
God is supposed to unchanging. Immutability is supposed to be one of his traits, along with omnipotence, omnibenevolence, etc. God is supposed to be perfection realized, so he is not allowed to change his mind. I think we can only assume that man's account of god is flawed.
Science works through deduction & inference. Our best scanning electron microscopes cannot see actual nucleotide connections on DNA. It's simply too small. Furthermore, creating life requires knowledge not just of DNA but how the proteins fold & damn near everything else is going to work too. How much info can DNA store? It's near-infinite because the information can be combined in many different ways, the same way that music can. One recent estimate shows that a human can store 295 exabytes of information. And that's only 1%. The other 99% is junk DNA.
So the answer to your question: why can't we create life even though we can come to understand it? The same reason why we can't stop the tides from coming in & out even though we know how they work. The same reason we can't blow up suns or travel to other star systems even though we understand those too.
I disagree. Religion makes factual statements about reality. So theists shouldn't be offended when they're told that their version of reality is wrong. You don't see theoretical physicists getting offended that someone is challenging one of their theories, etc, because that's the order of the day in science.
This is true to an extent. But I think everyone would agree that the person who claims to "know it all" or know something for a 100% fact is not doing science correctly. Science is different from religion in that it strives to question itself and prove its own theories wrong, whereas religion only seeks to find proof for its already per-determined conclusions. Many people say that science never gives irrefutable proof of anything. Science is humble.
0. We cant know this for sure(I believe they would have be warned somehow, someway). Still, doubt they would have payed any heed(as is evident in human history until now). People know what is instinctively wrong and yet do it anyway. Even more so because they assume there will be no consequences to their actions.
1. I doubt every tribe/nation at the time shared an equal level of such depravity and evil.
2. No, God does not care only for the Israelites. These nations were removed from his sight because of the reasons I mentioned in my last post.
3. Why should I go out of my way to question the judgements of God in an effort to prove him a liar and evil?. Especially when the Bible teaches the contrary and tells you why those nations were removed. I worship him because he is the only God, and thus would rather be on his good side. Ignoring the truth wont change it. Pretending he does not exist will not change it. I can only trust that his judgements are just(Since who else is powerful enough or intelligent enough to judge on such a grand scale?). Their own greats sins led them to destruction.
4. The promise of eternal life is valid if you believe and receive that truth, and start living your life for God. In all fairness, we are given choice to either accept or reject God. Both options have their end results.
Concerning the end days: The New Testament states:
And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people. He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water." (Revelation 14:6-7)
If you think the genocide in the Old testament was heavy, then you haven`t read what will befall all the earth in the last days according to the new testament.
Point is, God is the same in the old and new testaments. Sin and evil leads to great destruction(Our deliberate evil will come with its consequences), but God obviously wants to save you from it(Thats called Mercy). That is the entire message of the bible.
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)
You are of course free and intelligent enough to make up your own mind as to whether God Is good or evil. Based on your own logical reasoning and calculative deductions.
This is something I've never understood. Why would there be two options? What if I honestly just don't know? I can't imagine any God would be so terrible as to leave everybody in complete doubt and then in the end punish everybody who didn't blindly believe in him. It might sound like a lazy way out, but I do kind of expect God, if he is real, to forgive at least agnosts upon death. I can imagine if he'd punish outright atheists or people who believe in a 'pagan' God, or heretics or satanists or such, but why agnosts?
So whats the count so far. I find this thread hard to follow ...
Wasnt this just be "do you believe in something and why"
If everyone were to just answer that question and bugger off the thread'd be boring as fuck. It'd be a collected list of people on mapster who consider themselves religious. Might as well read a dictionary or phone book. It's the discussion that makes it fun.
"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Revelations 11-15)
All of mankind will be judged according to their works and deeds in this life. I would assume fairly as (Proverbs 11: The Lord hates dishonest scales).
Christians do not automatically gain `free pass to heaven` ticket as many of them would like to believe;
And Jesus said "Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?". Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' (Matthew 7:22-23)
"Blessed are those who wash their robes(Repent and turn away from their sins and evil), that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." (Revelation 22:14-15)
The bible is clear on who is going to inherit eternal life, and those that are going to be destroyed/tormented with Satan.
Jews and christians are not favored anymore over those that never really knew Jesus or came to an understanding of God
"The Lord is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and rich in love. The Lord is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made". (Psalms 145: 8-9)
My grandparents for instance, never had the opportunity of knowing Jesus(Like many others). Will that ignorance automatically send them to destruction?. Based on the above scriptures I would certainly think not. The same God cares for each and every person he has created.
Cookie for whoever can identify which film this ridiculously famous quote is from :
The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
Ezekiel 25:17
@EternalWraith: Go
Your reasoning works for me, but then the post I originally quoted seems a bit weird, no? I quoted it specifically because I thought you were saying "you either accept god and [have a chance to] get into heaven, or you don't and automatically go to hell". What then did you mean with "In all fairness, we are given choice to either accept or reject God. Both options have their end results." ?
@madlibrarian: Go
I somehow hear Morgan Freeman's voice saying that. Curious where it's from now, I feel like I've heard/seen it but can't recall it.
@madlibrarian: Go
According to google it is pulp fiction, lol.
Oh, yes, I understand what you are saying now. For the great majority of people, the gospel of Jesus christ will be preached to them before the end comes. They can accept and repent, or refuse and continue in their godless ways and wickedness. I commented on the ignorant in my previous post. So, indeed the post you originally quoted from me did not include that element of true ignorance(aka dying at a very young age, never hearing the gospel etc) Again, for the majority of the world:
And the Good News about the Kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, so that all nations will hear it; and then the end will come. (Matthew 24:14)
As a side note, its interesting to see how Jesus knew he would be preached through-out the whole world, Some two thousand years ago. This is just one example of fulfilled bible prophecy.
At the moment Christ is already being preached in almost every nation(with the advent of Satellite tv, the internet , missionaries etc). Egypt , Iraq, Russia, India, distant islands etc. So it wont be too long before every nation and people has heard the gospel.
Atheists will be without excuse on judgment day. Its not a Christian`s job to go around converting anyone. Christians are only instructed to (Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Matthew 5:16)
For since the creation of the world. God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools (Romans 1:20-23)
I will be better off in the hell anyway. The concept of real eternal life is just pure madness anyway... think that you are running windows forever and you have noway to reset or reinstall it...
A very interesting, albeit polarized, discussion so far.
I think religion was a necessary crutch for bronze age humanity, but thanks to great advancements in science and politics it is now counter-productive and unneeded. There are two points I want to make:
1. I don't think the tenets of the three big Middle Eastern religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) are reconcilable with the scientific process and therefore undermine our capability and desire to understand the universe. Those claiming to be "religious scientists" who search out scientific support for the happenings in their holy texts are doing science backwards: searching out an answer that fits congenially with their presupposed ideas. It has come to a point where religious people are saying that God, or sometimes the devil, has made it look like evolution is true just to test our "faith." This is infallible logic, and is therefore faulty. I know I'm getting side-tracked by the creationism debate, but this is also just an example of how religion derails science. Whales have hip girdle bones. Chicken have DNA coded for creating teeth. I mean come on. And let's look at astronomy... supposedly the entire universe is less than 10,000 years old by even the most liberal religious estimates. We can look at millions of stars in the sky that are over 10,000 light years away, meaning the light has been traveling for much longer than 10,000 years. If you want to believe in god, you can, but you have to believe he is a fantastically deceptive god.
2. The belief and support of religion does not make people better or more ethical; it actually has the opposite effect. Holy scriptures contains some meaningful passages about being a good neighbor and positive human being, but also condone murder, genocide, infanticide, rape, molestation, war, a huge list of other things that I believe are never OK. You can't say "let's ignore the bad parts and only do the good parts" because this type of cherry-picking is completely subjective. If it says in cold hard text that certain behaviors are ok, those with varying degrees of zealousness and literary understanding will act accordingly.
OK rant over.
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@Hookah604: Go
I've had similar thoughts at times about which would in fact be better, but just leave your hand on a burner on high setting for 5 minutes, then imagine that going on all the time for all your body forever. Or if you don't like that analogy, use an absess tooth or kidney stones, only for your whole body forever. One might think you'd eventually get used to the pain, it wouldn't even hurt. However it really doesn't, the longer it drags on it gets worse. Like reading Twilight or listening to Justin Bieber.
I have no clue what one could do to keep occupied for eternity in Heaven, but being bored sounds pretty amazing compared to that.
So then your point is indeed that anyone who doesn't 'accept god' ('become a christian' or whatever that may mean) will be smited, except those who have never had a chance to reform? Which basically means you're also telling me I'm in for a ticket downwards unless I convert between now and the moment I die. Is that correct?