I think you'd struggle to find a more competitive community than sc2.
League of Legends, I think it has the highest money being given out for any esports, I would assume people would get damn competitive for something like that. I actually find sc2 more lax than LoL a lot. LoL you got teammates who yell at you because they want to win so badly on a non ranked game compared to sc2 where it's just you and you can do whatever. Hell, going to those custom games where you spectate are so much fun. It's basically social hour while watching a match.
Eh, yeah, but that has more to do with the SC2 community not being complete fucking morons. The LoL community isn't 'competitive', it's full of complete retards. I rarely but stuff as blunt as this, but I do when I know it's completely true. Nearly every single person I've met since I started playing LoL has been a total scumbag. Like, undeniably. I'm not talking about personal run-ins here - I'm talking stuff like joining a game and having two people instantly lock in characters that ruin your entire team match up and then capsing at you for not grabbing a character that suits their needs, before you've even said anything.
Eivin's quite right on this one; you'd be hard pressed to find a more competitive audience than the SC2 community. That's not to say they don't exist (especially once we start looking past E-sports into real sports), but the point of the comment was to denounce the argument that the SC2 community isn't competitive.
League of Legends, I think it has the highest money being given out for any esports, I would assume people would get damn competitive for something like that. I actually find sc2 more lax than LoL a lot. LoL you got teammates who yell at you because they want to win so badly on a non ranked game compared to sc2 where it's just you and you can do whatever. Hell, going to those custom games where you spectate are so much fun. It's basically social hour while watching a match.
LoL has casual appeal and competitive appeal.
SC2 only has competitive appeal. Casuals, like myself, don't last. What's left is raw competitive.
If you find sc2 to be "more lax", seriously, I think you must be playing it wrong.
LoL, is all Lax on both ranked and unranked, i never feel competitive or get bitched, at but then again its rare for me not to be the 1st or 2nd best in the game. so maybe that has a lot to do with it.
as for Sc2 there is alot more money being given out, we just dont se it because its split between regions, whereas LoL, you play with everyone, I see germans, russians french, and a lot of other cultures playing on the same servers.
Sc2 is competitive, Its just this competitiveness isnt seen in Bronze and Silver where 60% of players sit.
Sc2 Team play isnt competitive until like platinum, because who cares how good your team skills are? even though alot of the masters league players are stuck in gold or platinum in 4v4s, or 2v2s or 3v3s, just because they dont know how to play on a team well.
@Mozared
On LoL i have 6 characters that I use, so no matter what I always have a back up, honestly its the players fault for not having a back up character that suits him or her, that way when the character they use is taken, they have another one that will work just as well.
As for the community its a hell lot better then HoN, people there are just dicks... though LoL can get that way from time to time.
On LoL i have 6 characters that I use, so no matter what I always have a back up, honestly its the players fault for not having a back up character that suits him or her, that way when the character they use is taken, they have another one that will work just as well.
No. League of Legends is a team game. Which means you need to work together with your team to win. I'm not complaining about somebody grabbing the character I want to play, I'm complaining about the antisocial assholes that don't give a fuck about anything, even if their actions completely mess up the team. If I'm trying to get a good game going and would like to test my support skill, I get fucked twice when two assholes show up, instalock Shaco and Ryze and call bot. I can play something else, sure, but this kind of ridiculous champion picking forces us to play without a support. Or get a jungling/solotop support (LOL). Or play without a jungler. Either way, it sucks. It's everyone's job to make the team work, and while I'm not that fussed about playing a different champion, it sucks when EVERY game you have at least two players who don't give a rat's ass about the team and pigeonhole you into a bad situation because of it.
I can see that, Heres what I do, i guess its because I was a WC3 dota player where the team decided what heroes you pick, I wait until everyone else picks, look at what my team needs, and then I pick. :D heres the heroes I use
Tyredamere
Caitlyn
Yi
Fiddlesticks
Twisted Fate
Dr Mundo(not one of the 6 main but still decent)
and Gangplank,
as you can see I have Junglers, Tanks, support, Ranged and melee alike.
I go whatever lane the team needs someone in even if its 1v2, Never jungle even with junglers just because I suck at it. I lead the team in late game tell them which lane to push and were the best place to push would be, and I execute the plan with or without them, unless there is good reason not to.
I get the Health ability always, and the mana ability when I have mana, and I get the tele to allie ability whenever I dont use mana
But then again I see what you are saying about dickwads not wanting to be a team player and thinking they can handle late game by themselves. I always Level up on Minions and Heroes kills that are Gurenteed, I always get items in this order if im melee, Boots, Big boots, Life steal scyth, Last wisper, Zeal, then the purple looking zeal, infinity edge, bloodthirster. and then the last one I forget. lol. havent played in 2 months so give me a break.
So as you can see I am a solo powerhouse at the end, but I still play as a team member, So solo efficiency with team stability = win :D.
except the reward part... You dont actually need any reward, Evolves, Bunker wars, DBZ tribute, civ wars and dota, none of which had prizes I think a game can do well just off the first 2. Though rewards dont hurt.
...The reward is actually the most important part! If the player does this for nothing, he'll just quit (and probably never come back). In DOTA, an example of reward is leveling up to learn new or stronger abilities. It's also the case when you reach the enemy base and are able to put a tower down by cooperating with your teammates. An example of challenge would be when you're facing a player from the opposing team, and the fun part is pretty much anything else. And I'm not even talking about the mobs you can attack all around the map...
I don't know the other maps except Bunker Wars, but I honestly don't like this one. It's basically just about positioning your army to get rid of someone else's army with minimal loss... The "fun-challenge-reward" loop is still there though, it's not always literally about earning resources or upgrades... The reward can simply be the victory itself, while the challenge is to get rid of an opponent. Trust me, there is ALWAYS a fun-challenge-reward somewhere. What makes casual players "casual" though, is precisely the fact that they don't care about beating the challenge. They just play for fun, and if the challenge is too tough they'll just skip it and do something else, no matter how good is the reward.
In Diablo 3 (which is A-W-E-S-O-M-E by the way, in case someone here missed the open beta weekend and was wondering), you keep killing mobs for fun, then fight a strong opponent or a boss (challenge), and you get a rare item as a reward... The fun-challenge-reward loops in Diablo 3 are particularly well done in my opinion, the level up system makes you want to keep playing for hours until you get all the powers for your character...
The funny thing is you can pretty much say the same about FarmVille or Angry Birds or any game on Facebook and the likes, except the "challenge" part is voluntarily extremely simple ("Oh no, my flowers are dying from a spreading disease! Sadface! I need to buy this extremely expensive medicine to save them!"). Casual players absolutely love these games with almost no challenge at all, while hardcore gamers just find them boring as hell... Hardcore players will play games mostly for its challenges (which is why multiplayer games are so popular among hardcore players, facing a real opponent makes the victory/reward worth it).
OHHH you and I were talking about different rewards, the rewards I were talking about are permanent rewards. and not ones that are for every game, I would call the rewards that you are talking about Progression Awards, while the ones i thought you were talking about would be Game Rewards.
Oh and dbz tribute was 100x better then dota, you pretty much had to Kite mobs and blast them with a beam type attack to level up quickly, I have yet to see one map in SC2 that requires Kiting, or a similar Death system, where you have to fight through the underworld to get the lord of the underworld to kill him to revive, and the King of death took longer to respawn and would be stronger each time he died.
@Mozared: Go
Yeah, thats why I only play LOL with friends. However I think SC2 gamers, specially at custom maps are generally as much retarded as LOL players, but most sc2 map need little team play or no team play at all.
(The best thing about LOL is their marketing setup...)
Oh yeah I love the video! Great watch for anyone really :)
Looking back now, I think part of the success of (my map) Death Haven, was that it did ramp up nicely. You start out at the landing site, with a simple goal of making your way to town. This gives a brief introduction to enemies, combat, and the story. Even if you don't know the goal, it's the only thing you can do, so the player can easily become invested. Then at town, there are a few cutscenes (which most people skipped), but essentially enemies start attacking the town and you're thrown into defending... and finally through death and replaying, you learn how to get better and better and work out strategies of defense against the Zerg waves.
The funny thing is that most of that ^ was completely accidental. I now realize many of the reasons why it was more successful than my other maps. At the time of making it though, I didn't really think about any of this. Just worked out I guess...
Hmyes and no. I've noticed that whenever I play with friends, my winrate goes up - this really is true. But as for the SC2 community being as bad - no way. Custom maps can have ragers and all, but not up to the ridiculous level as LoL does. Especially the Esports community within SC2 is really awesome, while you can still regularly find random ragers in regular ranked LoL games famous streamers play. Part of the reason for this is the marketing setup you mentioned, I think - free2play simply does attract younger and more hostile players.
It's not just that, though, I think it also has to do with the balance/game setup. MOBA games like LoL are pretty much a textbook example of games where teamplay is required, but hidden in the background, while solo-play and doing good alone is really obvious. It's easy for someone to farm all game long and end up with a really good score, while it's a lot less obvious that this player can't do jack in a 5v1 situation and still has to rely on his teammates for CC, disruption and extra damage. This is what breeds the "OMG KILLSTEAL" and "LOL 3 ultis to kill me 1v1 me noobs" mentality. LoL isn't a 1v1 game, but it really damn well pretends to be - which is what lures out the bad in a lot of people. They view it as unfair that they dominate their lane and then get ganked repeatedly, even though it is their own fault for not teamplaying.
I disagree with LoL being "teamplay" orientated. Only the final phase of the game requires much team-work, before that it's either solo or duo, short of organised teams.
What it does, however, is lump you with 4 people you generally don't know and put you in a position where you rely on them to win. I don't think this needs much of an explanation when it comes to rage-induction.
It's "teamplay" orientated insofar as that no matter how good you are, you're probably not going to make up for 1-2 bad team-mates.
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League of Legends, I think it has the highest money being given out for any esports, I would assume people would get damn competitive for something like that. I actually find sc2 more lax than LoL a lot. LoL you got teammates who yell at you because they want to win so badly on a non ranked game compared to sc2 where it's just you and you can do whatever. Hell, going to those custom games where you spectate are so much fun. It's basically social hour while watching a match.
@Keyeszx: Go
Eh, yeah, but that has more to do with the SC2 community not being complete fucking morons. The LoL community isn't 'competitive', it's full of complete retards. I rarely but stuff as blunt as this, but I do when I know it's completely true. Nearly every single person I've met since I started playing LoL has been a total scumbag. Like, undeniably. I'm not talking about personal run-ins here - I'm talking stuff like joining a game and having two people instantly lock in characters that ruin your entire team match up and then capsing at you for not grabbing a character that suits their needs, before you've even said anything.
Eivin's quite right on this one; you'd be hard pressed to find a more competitive audience than the SC2 community. That's not to say they don't exist (especially once we start looking past E-sports into real sports), but the point of the comment was to denounce the argument that the SC2 community isn't competitive.
LoL has casual appeal and competitive appeal.
SC2 only has competitive appeal. Casuals, like myself, don't last. What's left is raw competitive.
If you find sc2 to be "more lax", seriously, I think you must be playing it wrong.
@Eiviyn: Go
LoL, is all Lax on both ranked and unranked, i never feel competitive or get bitched, at but then again its rare for me not to be the 1st or 2nd best in the game. so maybe that has a lot to do with it.
as for Sc2 there is alot more money being given out, we just dont se it because its split between regions, whereas LoL, you play with everyone, I see germans, russians french, and a lot of other cultures playing on the same servers.
Sc2 is competitive, Its just this competitiveness isnt seen in Bronze and Silver where 60% of players sit. Sc2 Team play isnt competitive until like platinum, because who cares how good your team skills are? even though alot of the masters league players are stuck in gold or platinum in 4v4s, or 2v2s or 3v3s, just because they dont know how to play on a team well.
@Mozared
On LoL i have 6 characters that I use, so no matter what I always have a back up, honestly its the players fault for not having a back up character that suits him or her, that way when the character they use is taken, they have another one that will work just as well.
As for the community its a hell lot better then HoN, people there are just dicks... though LoL can get that way from time to time.
No. League of Legends is a team game. Which means you need to work together with your team to win. I'm not complaining about somebody grabbing the character I want to play, I'm complaining about the antisocial assholes that don't give a fuck about anything, even if their actions completely mess up the team. If I'm trying to get a good game going and would like to test my support skill, I get fucked twice when two assholes show up, instalock Shaco and Ryze and call bot. I can play something else, sure, but this kind of ridiculous champion picking forces us to play without a support. Or get a jungling/solotop support (LOL). Or play without a jungler. Either way, it sucks. It's everyone's job to make the team work, and while I'm not that fussed about playing a different champion, it sucks when EVERY game you have at least two players who don't give a rat's ass about the team and pigeonhole you into a bad situation because of it.
Pretty good, loved it.
Would be nice if people shared these kind of videos more often :).
@Mozared: Go
I can see that, Heres what I do, i guess its because I was a WC3 dota player where the team decided what heroes you pick, I wait until everyone else picks, look at what my team needs, and then I pick. :D heres the heroes I use Tyredamere Caitlyn Yi Fiddlesticks Twisted Fate Dr Mundo(not one of the 6 main but still decent) and Gangplank,
as you can see I have Junglers, Tanks, support, Ranged and melee alike.
I go whatever lane the team needs someone in even if its 1v2, Never jungle even with junglers just because I suck at it. I lead the team in late game tell them which lane to push and were the best place to push would be, and I execute the plan with or without them, unless there is good reason not to.
I get the Health ability always, and the mana ability when I have mana, and I get the tele to allie ability whenever I dont use mana
But then again I see what you are saying about dickwads not wanting to be a team player and thinking they can handle late game by themselves. I always Level up on Minions and Heroes kills that are Gurenteed, I always get items in this order if im melee, Boots, Big boots, Life steal scyth, Last wisper, Zeal, then the purple looking zeal, infinity edge, bloodthirster. and then the last one I forget. lol. havent played in 2 months so give me a break.
So as you can see I am a solo powerhouse at the end, but I still play as a team member, So solo efficiency with team stability = win :D.
...The reward is actually the most important part! If the player does this for nothing, he'll just quit (and probably never come back). In DOTA, an example of reward is leveling up to learn new or stronger abilities. It's also the case when you reach the enemy base and are able to put a tower down by cooperating with your teammates. An example of challenge would be when you're facing a player from the opposing team, and the fun part is pretty much anything else. And I'm not even talking about the mobs you can attack all around the map...
I don't know the other maps except Bunker Wars, but I honestly don't like this one. It's basically just about positioning your army to get rid of someone else's army with minimal loss... The "fun-challenge-reward" loop is still there though, it's not always literally about earning resources or upgrades... The reward can simply be the victory itself, while the challenge is to get rid of an opponent. Trust me, there is ALWAYS a fun-challenge-reward somewhere. What makes casual players "casual" though, is precisely the fact that they don't care about beating the challenge. They just play for fun, and if the challenge is too tough they'll just skip it and do something else, no matter how good is the reward.
In Diablo 3 (which is A-W-E-S-O-M-E by the way, in case someone here missed the open beta weekend and was wondering), you keep killing mobs for fun, then fight a strong opponent or a boss (challenge), and you get a rare item as a reward... The fun-challenge-reward loops in Diablo 3 are particularly well done in my opinion, the level up system makes you want to keep playing for hours until you get all the powers for your character...
The funny thing is you can pretty much say the same about FarmVille or Angry Birds or any game on Facebook and the likes, except the "challenge" part is voluntarily extremely simple ("Oh no, my flowers are dying from a spreading disease! Sadface! I need to buy this extremely expensive medicine to save them!"). Casual players absolutely love these games with almost no challenge at all, while hardcore gamers just find them boring as hell... Hardcore players will play games mostly for its challenges (which is why multiplayer games are so popular among hardcore players, facing a real opponent makes the victory/reward worth it).
@ZealNaga: Go
OHHH you and I were talking about different rewards, the rewards I were talking about are permanent rewards. and not ones that are for every game, I would call the rewards that you are talking about Progression Awards, while the ones i thought you were talking about would be Game Rewards.
Oh and dbz tribute was 100x better then dota, you pretty much had to Kite mobs and blast them with a beam type attack to level up quickly, I have yet to see one map in SC2 that requires Kiting, or a similar Death system, where you have to fight through the underworld to get the lord of the underworld to kill him to revive, and the King of death took longer to respawn and would be stronger each time he died.
@Mozared: Go Yeah, thats why I only play LOL with friends. However I think SC2 gamers, specially at custom maps are generally as much retarded as LOL players, but most sc2 map need little team play or no team play at all.
(The best thing about LOL is their marketing setup...)
Oh yeah I love the video! Great watch for anyone really :)
Looking back now, I think part of the success of (my map) Death Haven, was that it did ramp up nicely. You start out at the landing site, with a simple goal of making your way to town. This gives a brief introduction to enemies, combat, and the story. Even if you don't know the goal, it's the only thing you can do, so the player can easily become invested. Then at town, there are a few cutscenes (which most people skipped), but essentially enemies start attacking the town and you're thrown into defending... and finally through death and replaying, you learn how to get better and better and work out strategies of defense against the Zerg waves.
The funny thing is that most of that ^ was completely accidental. I now realize many of the reasons why it was more successful than my other maps. At the time of making it though, I didn't really think about any of this. Just worked out I guess...
@Hookah604: Go
Hmyes and no. I've noticed that whenever I play with friends, my winrate goes up - this really is true. But as for the SC2 community being as bad - no way. Custom maps can have ragers and all, but not up to the ridiculous level as LoL does. Especially the Esports community within SC2 is really awesome, while you can still regularly find random ragers in regular ranked LoL games famous streamers play. Part of the reason for this is the marketing setup you mentioned, I think - free2play simply does attract younger and more hostile players.
It's not just that, though, I think it also has to do with the balance/game setup. MOBA games like LoL are pretty much a textbook example of games where teamplay is required, but hidden in the background, while solo-play and doing good alone is really obvious. It's easy for someone to farm all game long and end up with a really good score, while it's a lot less obvious that this player can't do jack in a 5v1 situation and still has to rely on his teammates for CC, disruption and extra damage. This is what breeds the "OMG KILLSTEAL" and "LOL 3 ultis to kill me 1v1 me noobs" mentality. LoL isn't a 1v1 game, but it really damn well pretends to be - which is what lures out the bad in a lot of people. They view it as unfair that they dominate their lane and then get ganked repeatedly, even though it is their own fault for not teamplaying.
I disagree with LoL being "teamplay" orientated. Only the final phase of the game requires much team-work, before that it's either solo or duo, short of organised teams.
What it does, however, is lump you with 4 people you generally don't know and put you in a position where you rely on them to win. I don't think this needs much of an explanation when it comes to rage-induction.
It's "teamplay" orientated insofar as that no matter how good you are, you're probably not going to make up for 1-2 bad team-mates.