Hasn't that always been the case with zerg? Terrans are really good early and mid game, while zerg mainly just try to survive while expanding as much as possible, because their entire macro system just makes it really easy to wear down the opponent once you have enough hatcheries and money. That's pretty much the core concept behind the zerg - They're called the swarm for a reason, which is why I think that the Swarm Host is just a thematically perfect edition to the race, both lore and gameplay wise.
It's funny 'cause IdrA made this same argument in one of the older State of the Game episodes and Day9 rebuked it with "The Zerg in the game does not play AT ALL like the Zerg from the lore". I'd have to re-find the episode to see which parts of the argument tie in, but that did immediately come to mind. Tbf, going from memory, I think Day9 was right then but that the game (or really 'the meta') has changed so much that his argument no longer applies - this whole ordeal was nearly a year ago, when all players that were doing well were Terran, Protoss, or Fruitdealer.
Btw is anyone getting keys besides the official giveaways? This HotS beta goes way unnoticed and it's nothing like the giveaways that various forums did during sc2 beta.
Some stuff I noticed when testing the new units in HotS:
The mothership core is now as fast as:
- Overseer (unupgraded)
- Overlord (upgraded)
- Battlecruiser
- Thor
- Carrier
- High Templar
- Locust (offcreep)
Mutalisks are now faster than the Oracle.
- MS Core has the same range as Marines
- 2 Marines (no upgrades) kill the shield of the Core and do a tiny bit of damage versus the Core
- 3 Marines (no no upgrades) bring the Core down to approx 54 hp
- 4 Marines (no no upgrades) kill the Core with 1 full Marine and one with 21hp.
- Queens can outrange the Core by 2
- Core can kill 1 unmicroed Queen, with enough creep space it might be possible to kill the Core with only 1 queen (but the Core can fly away and recharge its shields and come again)
- Attached MS Core dies with Nexus
- 3 Mutalisks are required to kill the attached Core (if you attack it immediatly, if you fly around and give the Core 2 unnecessary shots, the Mutalisks will die)
- Purify (weapon of attached Core) can't be upgraded. It stays at 20.
- Vipers cannot abduct attached Cores
- Cores can make a moving shot (hit stop hotkey, then right click to move)
- HTs can feedback the Core while possibly receiving 1 hit
- The attached Core does not regenerate energy.
- Ghosts can EMP Core and Nexus (but they need to target more towards the middle of the Nexus)
- Units will acquire the Core when they are attacked by it instead of attacking the workers.
They followed several suggestions made in blizz forums to give MS Core a "leash range" from a Nexus, but only for the Purify ability. And now your Core is supposed to follow your harass so you can recall the entire group? Harass with a unit as fast as... check Ahli's list.
I'm curious to know what will happen to recall then. And with Recall moved to nexus can we expect 'mass' Recall? And by that I mean Recall being used all the time.
Ohhh Blizz, you don't really know how to balance the Swarm Host, do you?
I've got to say that Blizzard is becoming worse and worse as a company that should care about it's fans.
I hope, that Hots will be as good as posible, I really, because they failed miserably with Diablo 3, even worse, a lot of artists from the devolpment team of Diablo 1 and 2 resigned from Blizz and they are the main people of Torchlight 2.Wich seams funnier than D3 and it cost only 20$ unlike D3 wich cost 60$ (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻.
I'm curious to know what will happen to recall then. And with Recall moved to nexus can we expect 'mass' Recall? And by that I mean Recall being used all the time.
Recall is still an ability of the Core. Also, it can only be used when not attached. The attached Core can only attack and unattach itself.
Nexus has no recall.
A Nexus needs to be the targeted by the Core to teleport to. The Core then teleports itself and units around it to the Nexus.
edit:
Also, Ghost has a problem with his uncloak button being on the same spot as the cloak button now. You can't tell a mixed group of cloaked/uncloaked units to cloak or uncloak... you would need to cloak them all and uncloak them all again which would waste 25 energy per initially uncloaked ghost.
The Banshee has still 2 separate spots for those buttons.
I guess that change in hots will be reverted to WoL, too.
@Ahli634: Go Yeah I got it. I misunderstood it at first, thikinh that it would be cast from a Nexus, automatically recalling you MS Core and the surrounding army. Anyway, it doesn't look noob-friendly to me, you know, selecting MS Core and in the heat of battle move to the desired nexus to target it. Maybe it could be set to allow minimap casting?
Battle Hellion is an organism when on two legs now. Right................
Warhound removed. That's great, but terrans really need an anti-mech unit. Not that I can come up with any GOOD suggestions. Or that they would listen. After all, Blizzard is owned by Craptivision.
Widow Mines with 2 supply. I really don't see such a unit being used.
Locust range back to 3! YAAAY.
Oracles have a super entomb. As long as it is no longer UOP (Under/OverPowered) I'm fine with it.
Tempest. VR. I didn't know the Protoss were redundant as well as stubborn.
And Mothership Core. To me, it seems better than the actual Mothership. The only thing that makes MS better than MSC is that it has cloak field, and that doesn't work against Terrans or other Protoss.
I watched huskies video, and They made Protoss OP for anyone with half a brain, They can now auto protect up to 2 of their expansions with it, only a COMPLETE MORON would switch it out for the mothership.
I really dislike the recall my opinion is that they must make the recall smiler to the arbiter ( no mass recall but just area effect recall)
now its uhh stupid you add to an nexus and recall all units back so oracle and probes (for pylon build) who must stay outside
also they must rename the mothership core to Khaydarin Core or something mc is just so ugly name
and mc need their own quotes (smiler to the Phase prism or something)
Purify is now unless if it cost 100 energy
mothership need a new portrait of a female protoss because the old pylon portrait is so bad for using a mothership (that portrait must be used by the MC
just my opinion
Widow mine is some weird shit now. Basically a Terran AoE-damage lurker with a really slow attack speed? Find the new ability somewhat weird, as no one's gonna step on one ever again if they launch missiles from range 7.
wasn't the widow mine supposed to be a landmine? now it's only a burrowed missile turret with really slow attack speed. and if im understanding it correctly, the mothership core no longer needs to attach to a nexus when using purify. so basically you could just build 2 nexus near a choke point and cast purify on both of them and your opponent could never get close. bad call there Blizzard.
Purify isn't particularly powerful. You'd practically just 2 have photon cannons with more health, and the extra range is partially negated by the fact that Nexi take up a fuckton of space, which also means that if they get attacked in a choke point, your units cant defend them (unlike photon cannons) because they cant get past them either. Nexi have 5x5 footprints, most ranged units have a range of 4-6, meaning stalkers could only hit melee units attacking the nexus if they were behind it.
The widow mine was supposed to be a landmine, but destroying itself made it not that useful. What they did know was practically turn the Widow Mine into a Widow Mine Dispenser (I think they should actually rename the unit and ability to make it look more like something that creates widow mines instead of being a widow mine itself). The only thing that changed about the widow mine is that it DOESNT destroy itself anymore, meaning this is a huge buff. Yes, its a bit strange, but as I said before, it's a beta, the only time Blizzard can experiment with strange stuff. If it sounds weird, they're probably gonna change some model art and names to fit the new widow mine better.
I don't see why everyone hates on absolutely everything blizzard is doing right now, when its fairly obvious that all they're doing is trying out new mechanics for units. It's the early beta, blizzard is testing out to see if new designs for units are working well, and people just go "Yea, I'm not buying the game cause I don't like this one experimental change"
Why not simply listen to the community and make Widow Mines balanced being a 1-supply unit? This unit is extremely useful to block DTs and drops now, but lore-wise sounds a little off. Why would a "missile turret" need to burrow? I like that they're willing to try new mechanics, but once again it is Terrans getting a very cost-effective unit.
And now Oracles are very expensive workers lol. Expanding will be a pain when a unit can either block your mineral line our earn minerals while attacking your main structure or gas structure. I'm curious to see how players will use it, but I expected a combat ability.
The MS core is useless now, it gets focused fired and destroyed instantly, there's no way you can mass recal with that now that is rediculosly weak, it's not even a defensive unit anymore.
I mean purify demaged droped from the battle reports 60 demage, to 20 demage, so yeah...
Hp and Sp droped from 350/350 to 130/60.
The energise energy increased from 25 to 100, that mens that you could trade 100 energy to 150, at best, making it an useless ability that nobody normal would use it, period, It anoys me when Husky screams like a monkey that now Protoss has unlimited chronos.
NO, a nexus has a maximum of 100 e, so that you would trade 100 energy for 90, AT BEST, also you have 2 energise at a time,at max not unlimited like Husky shouts during the casts.
Also the recal in the actual form, will never work without losing your MS core during the 4 sec delay.
The MS core is a cheap excuse to give a "new unit" , it is just the recycled abilities of the Alpha Monolith.
Either they buff the MS core, or they let us make more than 1 MS core, or remove it from the game, for God sake, Protoss needs a new Gateway or Robotics unit, not a useless 2 suply flying peice of paper.
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It's funny 'cause IdrA made this same argument in one of the older State of the Game episodes and Day9 rebuked it with "The Zerg in the game does not play AT ALL like the Zerg from the lore". I'd have to re-find the episode to see which parts of the argument tie in, but that did immediately come to mind. Tbf, going from memory, I think Day9 was right then but that the game (or really 'the meta') has changed so much that his argument no longer applies - this whole ordeal was nearly a year ago, when all players that were doing well were Terran, Protoss, or Fruitdealer.
idk why they keep buffing entomb..
Btw is anyone getting keys besides the official giveaways? This HotS beta goes way unnoticed and it's nothing like the giveaways that various forums did during sc2 beta.
Update #4 is out.
@Flinkelinks: Go
Updated the main post, sorry its late - They post the updates after midnight, so I sometimes forget to check.
Some stuff I noticed when testing the new units in HotS:
The mothership core is now as fast as:
- Overseer (unupgraded)
- Overlord (upgraded)
- Battlecruiser
- Thor
- Carrier
- High Templar
- Locust (offcreep)
Mutalisks are now faster than the Oracle.
- MS Core has the same range as Marines
- 2 Marines (no upgrades) kill the shield of the Core and do a tiny bit of damage versus the Core
- 3 Marines (no no upgrades) bring the Core down to approx 54 hp
- 4 Marines (no no upgrades) kill the Core with 1 full Marine and one with 21hp.
- Queens can outrange the Core by 2
- Core can kill 1 unmicroed Queen, with enough creep space it might be possible to kill the Core with only 1 queen (but the Core can fly away and recharge its shields and come again)
- Attached MS Core dies with Nexus
- 3 Mutalisks are required to kill the attached Core (if you attack it immediatly, if you fly around and give the Core 2 unnecessary shots, the Mutalisks will die)
- Purify (weapon of attached Core) can't be upgraded. It stays at 20.
- Vipers cannot abduct attached Cores
- Cores can make a moving shot (hit stop hotkey, then right click to move)
- HTs can feedback the Core while possibly receiving 1 hit
- The attached Core does not regenerate energy.
- Ghosts can EMP Core and Nexus (but they need to target more towards the middle of the Nexus)
- Units will acquire the Core when they are attacked by it instead of attacking the workers.
They followed several suggestions made in blizz forums to give MS Core a "leash range" from a Nexus, but only for the Purify ability. And now your Core is supposed to follow your harass so you can recall the entire group? Harass with a unit as fast as... check Ahli's list.
I'm curious to know what will happen to recall then. And with Recall moved to nexus can we expect 'mass' Recall? And by that I mean Recall being used all the time.
Ohhh Blizz, you don't really know how to balance the Swarm Host, do you?
@SoulFilcher: Go
I've got to say that Blizzard is becoming worse and worse as a company that should care about it's fans.
I hope, that Hots will be as good as posible, I really, because they failed miserably with Diablo 3, even worse, a lot of artists from the devolpment team of Diablo 1 and 2 resigned from Blizz and they are the main people of Torchlight 2.Wich seams funnier than D3 and it cost only 20$ unlike D3 wich cost 60$ (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻.
Recall is still an ability of the Core. Also, it can only be used when not attached. The attached Core can only attack and unattach itself.
Nexus has no recall.
A Nexus needs to be the targeted by the Core to teleport to. The Core then teleports itself and units around it to the Nexus.
edit:
Also, Ghost has a problem with his uncloak button being on the same spot as the cloak button now. You can't tell a mixed group of cloaked/uncloaked units to cloak or uncloak... you would need to cloak them all and uncloak them all again which would waste 25 energy per initially uncloaked ghost.
The Banshee has still 2 separate spots for those buttons.
I guess that change in hots will be reverted to WoL, too.
@Ahli634: Go Yeah I got it. I misunderstood it at first, thikinh that it would be cast from a Nexus, automatically recalling you MS Core and the surrounding army. Anyway, it doesn't look noob-friendly to me, you know, selecting MS Core and in the heat of battle move to the desired nexus to target it. Maybe it could be set to allow minimap casting?
Battle Hellion is an organism when on two legs now. Right................
Warhound removed. That's great, but terrans really need an anti-mech unit. Not that I can come up with any GOOD suggestions. Or that they would listen. After all, Blizzard is owned by Craptivision.
Widow Mines with 2 supply. I really don't see such a unit being used.
Locust range back to 3! YAAAY.
Oracles have a super entomb. As long as it is no longer UOP (Under/OverPowered) I'm fine with it.
Tempest. VR. I didn't know the Protoss were redundant as well as stubborn.
And Mothership Core. To me, it seems better than the actual Mothership. The only thing that makes MS better than MSC is that it has cloak field, and that doesn't work against Terrans or other Protoss.
@SGTMeowmers9: Go
and doesnt REALLY work too well against zerg ahahaah
@Stewox: Go
I watched huskies video, and They made Protoss OP for anyone with half a brain, They can now auto protect up to 2 of their expansions with it, only a COMPLETE MORON would switch it out for the mothership.
Balance Update 5 added
Widow mine is some weird shit now. Basically a Terran AoE-damage lurker with a really slow attack speed? Find the new ability somewhat weird, as no one's gonna step on one ever again if they launch missiles from range 7.
Now I'm sure, I won't play Hots multiplayer.
wasn't the widow mine supposed to be a landmine? now it's only a burrowed missile turret with really slow attack speed. and if im understanding it correctly, the mothership core no longer needs to attach to a nexus when using purify. so basically you could just build 2 nexus near a choke point and cast purify on both of them and your opponent could never get close. bad call there Blizzard.
@KingRadical: Go
Purify isn't particularly powerful. You'd practically just 2 have photon cannons with more health, and the extra range is partially negated by the fact that Nexi take up a fuckton of space, which also means that if they get attacked in a choke point, your units cant defend them (unlike photon cannons) because they cant get past them either. Nexi have 5x5 footprints, most ranged units have a range of 4-6, meaning stalkers could only hit melee units attacking the nexus if they were behind it.
The widow mine was supposed to be a landmine, but destroying itself made it not that useful. What they did know was practically turn the Widow Mine into a Widow Mine Dispenser (I think they should actually rename the unit and ability to make it look more like something that creates widow mines instead of being a widow mine itself). The only thing that changed about the widow mine is that it DOESNT destroy itself anymore, meaning this is a huge buff. Yes, its a bit strange, but as I said before, it's a beta, the only time Blizzard can experiment with strange stuff. If it sounds weird, they're probably gonna change some model art and names to fit the new widow mine better.
I don't see why everyone hates on absolutely everything blizzard is doing right now, when its fairly obvious that all they're doing is trying out new mechanics for units. It's the early beta, blizzard is testing out to see if new designs for units are working well, and people just go "Yea, I'm not buying the game cause I don't like this one experimental change"
Why not simply listen to the community and make Widow Mines balanced being a 1-supply unit? This unit is extremely useful to block DTs and drops now, but lore-wise sounds a little off. Why would a "missile turret" need to burrow? I like that they're willing to try new mechanics, but once again it is Terrans getting a very cost-effective unit.
And now Oracles are very expensive workers lol. Expanding will be a pain when a unit can either block your mineral line our earn minerals while attacking your main structure or gas structure. I'm curious to see how players will use it, but I expected a combat ability.
The MS core is useless now, it gets focused fired and destroyed instantly, there's no way you can mass recal with that now that is rediculosly weak, it's not even a defensive unit anymore.
I mean purify demaged droped from the battle reports 60 demage, to 20 demage, so yeah...
Hp and Sp droped from 350/350 to 130/60.
The energise energy increased from 25 to 100, that mens that you could trade 100 energy to 150, at best, making it an useless ability that nobody normal would use it, period, It anoys me when Husky screams like a monkey that now Protoss has unlimited chronos.
NO, a nexus has a maximum of 100 e, so that you would trade 100 energy for 90, AT BEST, also you have 2 energise at a time,at max not unlimited like Husky shouts during the casts.
Also the recal in the actual form, will never work without losing your MS core during the 4 sec delay.
The MS core is a cheap excuse to give a "new unit" , it is just the recycled abilities of the Alpha Monolith.
Either they buff the MS core, or they let us make more than 1 MS core, or remove it from the game, for God sake, Protoss needs a new Gateway or Robotics unit, not a useless 2 suply flying peice of paper.