WARNING: THE FOLLOWING TOPIC CONTAINS A SERIOUS DISCUSSION ABOUT MANY THINGS THAT ARE INTEREST OF SC2MAPSTER, ME AND SIXEN ;o
IF YOU DO NOT WISH TO READ A HUGE WALL OF TEXT AND HAVE A NICE DISCUSSION ON THE TOPIC DO NOT PROCEED,
thanks.
Let's get facts straight first, It is closely a year since Starcraft II was released to retail and more than a year since a handfull of us got ahold of a beta key but I've yet to see an actual real mod.
I know that for many of you (coming from WC3), to your understanding, you're actually making mods, but the fact is that for some of us it's a bit different. I, for one, come from a background of SC1 only. Modding back then involved doing many things with various different tools so that one could achieve things mapping couldn't normally do. For example, back then having a marine shoot like a ghost was a huge thing (actually no but it was just to set an example), changes to the tech tree were incredibly hard to make for most modders, and changes to the graphics and effects made you god. This is all insanely possible now with the galaxy editor and very easy to make and include in a MAP.
Which makes me ask myself the first question, what exactly is Starcraft II Modding? Where does modding begin and where does mapping end?
I also remember the days of the beta, the closest I've seen to people making mods, I remember sitting with Voyager7456(SC1 modder) and DiscipleofAdun (SC1 modding tool developer) in an msn chat trying to make a single change to starcraft II until I finally achieved my 9001 HP probe and my pink nexus. It involved modifying files within the MPQs (I dare say some of you won't even know what an MPQ is) and hotloading them in the Liberty.Multi folder under /sc2mods/
Then Sixen dragged me to SC2mapster where people were actually up to something, with just 1 or maybe 2 weeks since the beta started people were already making maps/mods, tower defenses, rpgs, experimenting, finding out everything possible about SC2 and note that the editor didn't come out until a few months later in the beta. (let that serve as inspiration to you, reader) Some of us didn't even play a single melee match XD
Which makes me ask the second question, How does one make a Starcraft II Mod?
Then everything changed, SC2 was released and the editor was beyond powerful to make all sort of things and more completely easy. Hotloading MPQs was also disabled and everyone just went with the editor and that pretty much killed all the "modding" we had done in Starcraft II, there was only knowledge created which of course is useful for mapping.
My personal stance on this topic is that there's no starcraft II modding. Do not confuse it with mapping, to me a mod shouldn't be loaded within the game, it should BE the game. That'd be my definition of modding, think of it like a "permanent map" you'd modify gameplay/graphics/triggers/interface/everything and run SC2 with them, not just load a map. How would one make a mod? Well, grab Base.SC2Data and Base.SC2Assets and mod away!, insert your files, replace others, make SC2 use your mod's mpq instead of it's own.
This brings me to the third question, in theory, modifying the MPQs is against the ToS, would this make modding illegal?
And so brings me to my last and final point, who has actually done any kind of experimenting with modding? what have you done? what's your stance on the topic and what would your answers be for the questions opened?
These are just some doubts I have and I'd like to extend an invitation for anyone interested in the topic to discuss it here and if anyone wants to experiment along with me you are more than invited!
" The license granted to you in Section 1 above is subject to the limitations set forth in Sections 1 and 2 (collectively, the “License Limitations”). Any use of the Game in violation of the License Limitations will be regarded as an infringement of Blizzard’s copyrights in and to the Game. You agree that you will not, under any circumstances:
E.Modify or cause to be modified any files that are a part of the Game in any way not expressly authorized by Blizzard; "
What is the advantage of modifying MPQs instead of using the editor?
If you want to load a map right as you start Starcraft 2, then that is already possible (It's only for offline use, but so would be modifying MPQs). That functionality allows the creation of stuff like total conversions. You can do what Blizzard did for their campaign: have a central map (the hyperion) with a completely unique interface done with triggers or UI files, and the ability to load other maps.
I'm not really sure what MPQs mods could do. I've seen stuff like changing the wallpaper of the battle.net screen, but you I don't think you can modify the logic or interface (as in add a new button that does something) of the game.
Let's not forget some people also come from SC1 in the 90s through war3 for the last 7 years and now SC2 to know what modding is or what you mean. Most of what refers to as 'Mod' is hacked. For instance, Diablo 2 Eastern Sun was a mod - hacked Diablo2, there was hacked broodwar that used war2 images they are not models right? So I remember Big Game Hunters with war2 buildings, heck I didn't even know they were war2 at first, as I played war2 after Broodwar, i,e when Warcraft 3 was in beta to have the story & warcraft gameplay before the years of war3.
I've heard of a Diablo 2 Necromancer entering through Scroll of TP on Big Game Hunters and saying 'Opps not my place' or something like that, that's modding too. Legit?
So if you mean that is lacking, I dont know Eastern Sun didn't seem legit, War2 into Broodwar too, in fact I didn't find anything good about it. For changing the buildings models to some other games' it's obviously illegal and I don't approve of it either. The time when we played such crappy hacked versions were there was no Internet (the 90s!) just LAN but was overall fun cause we gathered at computer clubs.
CS is a mod of HL, well it's developed by the same company right? Ultimate Mortal Kombat Trilogy ROM having fighters from MK1, MK2, MK3. MKT (literally several Sub-Zeros, several Scorpions etc etc) was also hacked and it used the same word 'hacked UMK3' - so I see no difference, And no justifycation people to be playing like that - since you mean that instead of creating FUN SC1 custom maps with the editor as I remember SCBW had.
Idk, speaking of pasting files not just a custom map, here someone made a SC1 terran campaign that involved not only custom maps using SC2 models of course but using SC1 music, it required pasting some SC2Data files i dont remember, it also involves using a custom SC2Assets file but modifying your game..
My personal stance on this topic is that there's no starcraft II modding. Do not confuse it with mapping, to me a mod shouldn't be loaded within the game, it should BE the game. That'd be my definition of modding, think of it like a "permanent map" you'd modify gameplay/graphics/triggers/interface/everything and run SC2 with them, not just load a map. How would one make a mod? Well, grab Base.SC2Data and Base.SC2Assets and mod away!, insert your files, replace others, make SC2 use your mod's mpq instead of it's own.
I'm gonna quote this and try to argue to this basic points. If your definition of modding involves modifying base and assets mpq file for a game to completely or partially change the way vanilla game supposed to work, it is no different now. The very changes of approach in designing the sc2 engine change the perspective in the first place. Any map that is loaded did not load additional thing on top of the game, they in fact override base, data and assets file to be run with the game engine. Almost any modification you think need to be done via modding file now can be done via the map system.
The only difference now that the editor basically does all of the editing mpq jobs for you and there are very few technical things left it cant change and you must extract an map mpq to do it. But that's just more functionality. (graphics, model, interface are changeable by overriding base data mpq file with map mpq). To me, the map system together with publishing server are the best solution for any modification to be viable online (now that LAN is almost non-existent in all games). The only thing you can mod that the editor cant is messing with the game engine itself, which is a violation of their intellectual property (software).
I always consider mapping is making melee map that use the rules or sc2 or just drawing nice terrain, while modding involves those tasks and any other changes to the gameplay/visual. Maybe the dictatorship of the map publication changed your perspective a bit.
Agreed with the guy above me. I can make a game that is as different to SC2 as CS was to HL and yet you wouldn't call it modding? It sounds quite elitist honestly to distinguish between mapping and modding like you (OP) do.
I agree that there isn't any modding on starcraft 2 going on but what the editor can do makes modding not needed. Usually single player games thrive from mods because you can make it however you want it. But multiplayer mods tend not to show up since that will lead to cheating eventually. Very few games work with mods in multiplayer. If you think of modding in terms of Oblviion or Fallout then the editor is letting you create mods since these are changes to the game that aren't made within the game. Mods are usually created outside the game.
Your entire post is basically a single string of fecal matter. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about at all, sir. I recommend you stop and walk away.
What is the advantage of modifying MPQs instead of using the editor?
If you want to load a map right as you start Starcraft 2, then that is
already possible (It's only for offline use, but so would be modifying
MPQs).
Incorrect. Allow me to refer you to a simple chart I create a while ago to introduce inexperienced people to the modding environment.
A mod can be run on battle.net in Starcraft 2, and I was running mods as early as a week into beta. A mod allows you to bypass things like arbitrary limits on maps. A mod functions on any map. What happens when you try to run a mod with someone who doesn't have it? It drops you/desyncs. Same thing since BW/wc3. In wc3 you could use mpqdraft. I know the guy who created mpqdraft, and if Blizzard wasn't monitoring RAM/mpq usage in sc2 I could just as easily had him make a version to support it before the game was even out.
A mod allows you to create a total conversion for the game that changes everything. Interface, menus, everything, and it takes place on every map. I personally can't think of a reason to make an individual map when you can make a mod. I was modding Brood War for over 10 years. Just ask Sixen.
You can use the editor to create the data you want to use in a mod, the difference is the environment in which the mod loads. Which is only "illegal" in sc2.
I always consider mapping is making melee map that use the rules or sc2
or just drawing nice terrain, while modding involves those tasks and any
other changes to the gameplay/visual. Maybe the dictatorship of the map
publication changed your perspective a bit.
I think this is an enormous misconception that people have coming from warcraft 3, where modding was almost non-existent (but it did indeed exist).
Changing the attributes and graphics in sc2's editor is nothing different than changing attributes in StarEdit. They are still restricted to the environment of a single map. The "mod" files in sc2 are basically the campaign files from Warcraft 3. Since you need to change the map files to be dependent on those, the mod is not effecting the entire game, it's just acting as an external repository. Refer to my above, superbly sketched graph.
It sounds
quite elitist honestly to distinguish between mapping and modding like
you (OP) do.
r u 4 rela?
@ Corbo
You should have just asked me, bro. Almost no one here even knows what a mod even is. To make a mod in sc2 you just add files to the patch mpq with the directory having the highest number. Bingo, instant mod.
The question is: What is the benefit of modding in our case instead of changing all the variables we liek within the editor? (although in my view a mod isn't the technical standpoint of a modified map; it is the result).
To me a mod is the second of three levels of modification.
1. mutator -> simple change of one or few variables, like making a unit stronger or giving it less damage. (balancewise the effect can have a huge impact on gameplay, just have a look at FPS instagib maps)
2. mod -> changing the rules of the game while remaining in the same environment somewhat unit-setups, like AOS/DotA/Tower Defense
3. total conversion -> making an entirely different game in the engine while using new art (textures, soundfiles etc.), not necessarily chaning the game rules. (see Counter-Strike).
The question is: What is the benefit of modding in our case instead of changing all the variables we liek within the editor? (although in my view a mod isn't the technical standpoint of a modified map; it is the result).
To me a mod is the second of three levels of modification.
1. mutator -> simple change of one or few variables, like making a unit stronger or giving it less damage. (balancewise the effect can have a huge impact on gameplay, just have a look at FPS instagib maps)
2. mod -> changing the rules of the game while remaining in the same environment somewhat unit-setups, like AOS/DotA/Tower Defense
3. total conversion -> making an entirely different game in the engine while using new art (textures, soundfiles etc.), not necessarily chaning the game rules. (see Counter-Strike).
I think that's a reasonable summary of most people's perspective on modding, especially if they came from Warcraft 3. To me and most people from the older communities, the differences are extremely simple;
Map - A single map containing assets and data necessary to its function
Mod - A collection of data and assets who are used to change the entire game. This also encompasses total conversions.
Campaign - A collection of maps with either a mod or an external archive supplying global assets to keep filesizes down.
What is the advantage of using a mod?
- No size limits.
- Functions on any map.
- Allows you to modify elements outside of the map, including menus and other core stuff (without touching hardcode of the engine, but this is also often possible)
- Allows you to exceed the scale of any given individual map design.
Mod environments also have their limitations, but these limitations are usually outside the design of the mod. Things like dependency on regions/locations (like Dota). Most mods for BW are, for example, still in the RTS genre.
In sc2 I would think most trigger functions can be made global as well, you'd just need to work them into the various Galaxy files.
I think that's a reasonable summary of most people's perspective on modding, especially if they came from Warcraft 3. To me and most people from the older communities, the differences are extremely simple;
In other words, you guys are old fashioned. Get with the times we are in 2011.
shrug* I don't know how you can try to argue against how the environments for custom content work... but keep at it bro. That's like me walking into a nuclear reactor and telling everyone my new and exciting idea how to improve the efficiency of their work force.
shrug* I don't know how you can try to argue against how the environments for custom content work... but keep at it bro. That's like me walking into a nuclear reactor and telling everyone my new and exciting idea how to improve the efficiency of their work force.
Except that everyone agrees the nuclear scientists know their stuff. Society has accepted the norms laid in place. Here we are talking about a small group of elitist assholes thinking they know it all when everyone else doesn't see it that way.
And what do you mean how the environments for custom content work? Is it documented somewhere? Universally accepted? Certified? Didn't think so.
I wouldn't call the entire custom content communities for BW and the majority of heavily modded games (Sins of a Solar Empire, Homeworld 2, Relic games, Age of Wonders 2...) out there a small group of elitists. When I said minority, I was referring to our presence in sc2. But if you want to perceive us that way, well that's fine. I'm not going to try to change your perspective on me or anyone else. All I'm saying that is that people who have come from certain perspectives have an incorrect understanding of modding.
It's funny you say that. Perhaps it is you guys who have the incorrect perspective? What I'm getting at is this whole you think we're wrong and you're right argument. That is so childish. The truth is we both can be right. This isn't science bro.
The only advantage I'm seeing is the possibility of muliplayer maps without the 10MB limit, and I'm not convinced that Blizzard's Warden would just allow you to connect and play with a client that's had extensive MPQ edits. Who's going to play a mod that says "well, you might get banned for doing this"? And there'd still be no way to switch maps in multiplayer, mod or no mod.
Everything else is perfectly doable inside the editor. The only exception is "modifying elements outside of the map", but what are those exactly? The battle.net menus? What would be the point in modding them? The whole campaign is contained in a very large map file that opens other maps files on command.
All this seems like modding for the sake of modding...
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WARNING: THE FOLLOWING TOPIC CONTAINS A SERIOUS DISCUSSION ABOUT MANY THINGS THAT ARE INTEREST OF SC2MAPSTER, ME AND SIXEN ;o IF YOU DO NOT WISH TO READ A HUGE WALL OF TEXT AND HAVE A NICE DISCUSSION ON THE TOPIC DO NOT PROCEED,
thanks.
Let's get facts straight first, It is closely a year since Starcraft II was released to retail and more than a year since a handfull of us got ahold of a beta key but I've yet to see an actual real mod. I know that for many of you (coming from WC3), to your understanding, you're actually making mods, but the fact is that for some of us it's a bit different. I, for one, come from a background of SC1 only. Modding back then involved doing many things with various different tools so that one could achieve things mapping couldn't normally do. For example, back then having a marine shoot like a ghost was a huge thing (actually no but it was just to set an example), changes to the tech tree were incredibly hard to make for most modders, and changes to the graphics and effects made you god. This is all insanely possible now with the galaxy editor and very easy to make and include in a MAP.
Which makes me ask myself the first question, what exactly is Starcraft II Modding? Where does modding begin and where does mapping end?
I also remember the days of the beta, the closest I've seen to people making mods, I remember sitting with Voyager7456(SC1 modder) and DiscipleofAdun (SC1 modding tool developer) in an msn chat trying to make a single change to starcraft II until I finally achieved my 9001 HP probe and my pink nexus. It involved modifying files within the MPQs (I dare say some of you won't even know what an MPQ is) and hotloading them in the Liberty.Multi folder under /sc2mods/ Then Sixen dragged me to SC2mapster where people were actually up to something, with just 1 or maybe 2 weeks since the beta started people were already making maps/mods, tower defenses, rpgs, experimenting, finding out everything possible about SC2 and note that the editor didn't come out until a few months later in the beta. (let that serve as inspiration to you, reader) Some of us didn't even play a single melee match XD
Which makes me ask the second question, How does one make a Starcraft II Mod?
Then everything changed, SC2 was released and the editor was beyond powerful to make all sort of things and more completely easy. Hotloading MPQs was also disabled and everyone just went with the editor and that pretty much killed all the "modding" we had done in Starcraft II, there was only knowledge created which of course is useful for mapping.
My personal stance on this topic is that there's no starcraft II modding. Do not confuse it with mapping, to me a mod shouldn't be loaded within the game, it should BE the game. That'd be my definition of modding, think of it like a "permanent map" you'd modify gameplay/graphics/triggers/interface/everything and run SC2 with them, not just load a map. How would one make a mod? Well, grab Base.SC2Data and Base.SC2Assets and mod away!, insert your files, replace others, make SC2 use your mod's mpq instead of it's own.
This brings me to the third question, in theory, modifying the MPQs is against the ToS, would this make modding illegal?
And so brings me to my last and final point, who has actually done any kind of experimenting with modding? what have you done? what's your stance on the topic and what would your answers be for the questions opened?
These are just some doubts I have and I'd like to extend an invitation for anyone interested in the topic to discuss it here and if anyone wants to experiment along with me you are more than invited!
@xcorbo: Go
" The license granted to you in Section 1 above is subject to the limitations set forth in Sections 1 and 2 (collectively, the “License Limitations”). Any use of the Game in violation of the License Limitations will be regarded as an infringement of Blizzard’s copyrights in and to the Game. You agree that you will not, under any circumstances:
E.Modify or cause to be modified any files that are a part of the Game in any way not expressly authorized by Blizzard; "
Yes, illegal. No surprise there, though.
What is the advantage of modifying MPQs instead of using the editor?
If you want to load a map right as you start Starcraft 2, then that is already possible (It's only for offline use, but so would be modifying MPQs). That functionality allows the creation of stuff like total conversions. You can do what Blizzard did for their campaign: have a central map (the hyperion) with a completely unique interface done with triggers or UI files, and the ability to load other maps.
I'm not really sure what MPQs mods could do. I've seen stuff like changing the wallpaper of the battle.net screen, but you I don't think you can modify the logic or interface (as in add a new button that does something) of the game.
Let's not forget some people also come from SC1 in the 90s through war3 for the last 7 years and now SC2 to know what modding is or what you mean. Most of what refers to as 'Mod' is hacked. For instance, Diablo 2 Eastern Sun was a mod - hacked Diablo2, there was hacked broodwar that used war2 images they are not models right? So I remember Big Game Hunters with war2 buildings, heck I didn't even know they were war2 at first, as I played war2 after Broodwar, i,e when Warcraft 3 was in beta to have the story & warcraft gameplay before the years of war3.
I've heard of a Diablo 2 Necromancer entering through Scroll of TP on Big Game Hunters and saying 'Opps not my place' or something like that, that's modding too. Legit?
So if you mean that is lacking, I dont know Eastern Sun didn't seem legit, War2 into Broodwar too, in fact I didn't find anything good about it. For changing the buildings models to some other games' it's obviously illegal and I don't approve of it either. The time when we played such crappy hacked versions were there was no Internet (the 90s!) just LAN but was overall fun cause we gathered at computer clubs.
CS is a mod of HL, well it's developed by the same company right? Ultimate Mortal Kombat Trilogy ROM having fighters from MK1, MK2, MK3. MKT (literally several Sub-Zeros, several Scorpions etc etc) was also hacked and it used the same word 'hacked UMK3' - so I see no difference, And no justifycation people to be playing like that - since you mean that instead of creating FUN SC1 custom maps with the editor as I remember SCBW had.
Idk, speaking of pasting files not just a custom map, here someone made a SC1 terran campaign that involved not only custom maps using SC2 models of course but using SC1 music, it required pasting some SC2Data files i dont remember, it also involves using a custom SC2Assets file but modifying your game..
I'm gonna quote this and try to argue to this basic points. If your definition of modding involves modifying base and assets mpq file for a game to completely or partially change the way vanilla game supposed to work, it is no different now. The very changes of approach in designing the sc2 engine change the perspective in the first place. Any map that is loaded did not load additional thing on top of the game, they in fact override base, data and assets file to be run with the game engine. Almost any modification you think need to be done via modding file now can be done via the map system.
The only difference now that the editor basically does all of the editing mpq jobs for you and there are very few technical things left it cant change and you must extract an map mpq to do it. But that's just more functionality. (graphics, model, interface are changeable by overriding base data mpq file with map mpq). To me, the map system together with publishing server are the best solution for any modification to be viable online (now that LAN is almost non-existent in all games). The only thing you can mod that the editor cant is messing with the game engine itself, which is a violation of their intellectual property (software).
I always consider mapping is making melee map that use the rules or sc2 or just drawing nice terrain, while modding involves those tasks and any other changes to the gameplay/visual. Maybe the dictatorship of the map publication changed your perspective a bit.
Agreed with the guy above me. I can make a game that is as different to SC2 as CS was to HL and yet you wouldn't call it modding? It sounds quite elitist honestly to distinguish between mapping and modding like you (OP) do.
I agree that there isn't any modding on starcraft 2 going on but what the editor can do makes modding not needed. Usually single player games thrive from mods because you can make it however you want it. But multiplayer mods tend not to show up since that will lead to cheating eventually. Very few games work with mods in multiplayer. If you think of modding in terms of Oblviion or Fallout then the editor is letting you create mods since these are changes to the game that aren't made within the game. Mods are usually created outside the game.
Your entire post is basically a single string of fecal matter. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about at all, sir. I recommend you stop and walk away.
Incorrect. Allow me to refer you to a simple chart I create a while ago to introduce inexperienced people to the modding environment.
A mod can be run on battle.net in Starcraft 2, and I was running mods as early as a week into beta. A mod allows you to bypass things like arbitrary limits on maps. A mod functions on any map. What happens when you try to run a mod with someone who doesn't have it? It drops you/desyncs. Same thing since BW/wc3. In wc3 you could use mpqdraft. I know the guy who created mpqdraft, and if Blizzard wasn't monitoring RAM/mpq usage in sc2 I could just as easily had him make a version to support it before the game was even out.
A mod allows you to create a total conversion for the game that changes everything. Interface, menus, everything, and it takes place on every map. I personally can't think of a reason to make an individual map when you can make a mod. I was modding Brood War for over 10 years. Just ask Sixen.
You can use the editor to create the data you want to use in a mod, the difference is the environment in which the mod loads. Which is only "illegal" in sc2.
I think this is an enormous misconception that people have coming from warcraft 3, where modding was almost non-existent (but it did indeed exist).
Changing the attributes and graphics in sc2's editor is nothing different than changing attributes in StarEdit. They are still restricted to the environment of a single map. The "mod" files in sc2 are basically the campaign files from Warcraft 3. Since you need to change the map files to be dependent on those, the mod is not effecting the entire game, it's just acting as an external repository. Refer to my above, superbly sketched graph.
r u 4 rela?
@ Corbo
You should have just asked me, bro. Almost no one here even knows what a mod even is. To make a mod in sc2 you just add files to the patch mpq with the directory having the highest number. Bingo, instant mod.
The question is: What is the benefit of modding in our case instead of changing all the variables we liek within the editor? (although in my view a mod isn't the technical standpoint of a modified map; it is the result).
To me a mod is the second of three levels of modification.
1. mutator -> simple change of one or few variables, like making a unit stronger or giving it less damage. (balancewise the effect can have a huge impact on gameplay, just have a look at FPS instagib maps)
2. mod -> changing the rules of the game while remaining in the same environment somewhat unit-setups, like AOS/DotA/Tower Defense
3. total conversion -> making an entirely different game in the engine while using new art (textures, soundfiles etc.), not necessarily chaning the game rules. (see Counter-Strike).
I think that's a reasonable summary of most people's perspective on modding, especially if they came from Warcraft 3. To me and most people from the older communities, the differences are extremely simple;
Map - A single map containing assets and data necessary to its function
Mod - A collection of data and assets who are used to change the entire game. This also encompasses total conversions.
Campaign - A collection of maps with either a mod or an external archive supplying global assets to keep filesizes down.
What is the advantage of using a mod?
- No size limits.
- Functions on any map.
- Allows you to modify elements outside of the map, including menus and other core stuff (without touching hardcode of the engine, but this is also often possible)
- Allows you to exceed the scale of any given individual map design.
Mod environments also have their limitations, but these limitations are usually outside the design of the mod. Things like dependency on regions/locations (like Dota). Most mods for BW are, for example, still in the RTS genre.
In sc2 I would think most trigger functions can be made global as well, you'd just need to work them into the various Galaxy files.
In other words, you guys are old fashioned. Get with the times we are in 2011.
Facepalm.
Here, I'll quote you again:
So who is in the minority again?
The people who aren't ignorant. You are ignorant because you aren't experienced in the subject. Perspective or not, that is how the environments work.
Time to quote myself:
Thanks for making my point! By the way, who died and made you the expert? Honestly, that is the most stuck up bullshit I've heard in awhile.
Except that everyone agrees the nuclear scientists know their stuff. Society has accepted the norms laid in place. Here we are talking about a small group of elitist assholes thinking they know it all when everyone else doesn't see it that way.
And what do you mean how the environments for custom content work? Is it documented somewhere? Universally accepted? Certified? Didn't think so.
I wouldn't call the entire custom content communities for BW and the majority of heavily modded games (Sins of a Solar Empire, Homeworld 2, Relic games, Age of Wonders 2...) out there a small group of elitists. When I said minority, I was referring to our presence in sc2. But if you want to perceive us that way, well that's fine. I'm not going to try to change your perspective on me or anyone else. All I'm saying that is that people who have come from certain perspectives have an incorrect understanding of modding.
@IskatuMesk: Go
It's funny you say that. Perhaps it is you guys who have the incorrect perspective? What I'm getting at is this whole you think we're wrong and you're right argument. That is so childish. The truth is we both can be right. This isn't science bro.
The only advantage I'm seeing is the possibility of muliplayer maps without the 10MB limit, and I'm not convinced that Blizzard's Warden would just allow you to connect and play with a client that's had extensive MPQ edits. Who's going to play a mod that says "well, you might get banned for doing this"? And there'd still be no way to switch maps in multiplayer, mod or no mod.
Everything else is perfectly doable inside the editor. The only exception is "modifying elements outside of the map", but what are those exactly? The battle.net menus? What would be the point in modding them? The whole campaign is contained in a very large map file that opens other maps files on command.
All this seems like modding for the sake of modding...