I worry shutting it down will give off the connotation that I proclaim it matters to people if the map is up or not. Given that people play the map, it's probably true that it does matter to people that it's up, but I don't think it's something I should say myself, nor is it something I know for sure to be true. They'll just play something else.
I need to leave the map up to make it easier to give exposure to projects I do care about. When I made my TD, I knew its popularity would be guaranteed. My new project is not so surefire. It's something you'll have to give a bit of a chance to before its awesomeness sinks in.
I'm sure people would be much more willing to sit through a full level of a Valve or Blizzard game before deciding whether it's worth their time, than some game from some company they've never even heard of.
I feel the same principle would apply here. Not that I feel I'm the custom map equivalent of Valve or Blizzard. It was just an example.
I'm not gonna read anything here. That way I wont read all the stupid things I've know Vexal has written about how his map is popular.
Nevermind. I'm not gonna discus a map I've never played because people levee at the start of every game.
Also Vexel, Stop telling people to fuck off, and then making edits. Its.... a bad habit to say things on forums that you have to edit. Instead of pretending that you said something nice at first, try saying: Comment deleted: I'm a troll :P
EDIT: Good luck Mozard, $5 if you get him to shut down his TD.
Grenegg same to you..dont come into a topic with nothing to say other than telling vexal to not edit his posts, him editing that out of his posts is a GOOD THING. and imo vexal has a right to be mad about this if he wants...[ive read the thread.... you just said your going to post without even readnig...so... not sure what the point was]
Grenegg, that was the point of this post in the first place. That is why I dislike the community this map appeals to.
If I join a game on my own account, everything goes fine because I suppose the players want to impress me. But if I join a game on a friend's account, it's exactly as you described. All the players usually decide within the first 30 seconds if their teammates are "worthy". It took me ten tries to get past level five (out of 43) yesterday because players just leave at the first sight of mishap.
Nevermind the fact that players disconnect during load half the time because of Battle.net itself.
I don't know. I've never even beat it. I've only seen the last level through replays people send me.
I just made towers, levels, and rules I thought were unique and fun. At first I balanced it with a spreadsheet and some math, but I found it much more effective to write the names of all the levels and tower on a board and throw darts with numbers on them to determine the unit stats.
EDIT: I don't think the difficulty to learn is a problem. I intended it so that you can't just do whatever you want to win. I made it so you have to look at the rest of your team to determine what to build. Different levels require different towers, and each player can't afford every tower by the time each is needed. This worked for a while, but unfortunately after a couple months, players started ignoring this. Instead, they sacrifice and accept the consequences of ignoring these mechanics and just save for more powerful towers.
I believe the outrage recently was sparked when I changed the cost of marines from 3 to 6. I lowered the cost of other towers, but people had build orders so stuck into their head, that it didn't matter.
I seem to recall saying on your b.net (autism? dyslexia? i'm really bad remembering these sorts of things :P) that a lot of your problems would be solved if you had a separate personal player account that you didn't tell anyone about. I believe your response was "but i shouldnt haaaavvveee toooo...." I'd reconsider this if it really is that bad.
I never said that. I said my problems would be solved if there were an invisible or appear offline mode. But that's not even completely true. It just avoids the problem.
I don't see how that is relevant to anything I've said here, and I would appreciate if you do not post in my threads anymore.
Oh, wow. I said that without having to edit anything.
I'm one of the few people here actually giving constructive advice on the problem of his community.
no you're not. you're doing the classic move of trying to be constructive but you're only faking it to look good. none of the advice you have given is constructive. half of the stuff you spew is classic troll-shrouds-herself-in-pretty-flowers junk we all recognize. your advice is EXACTLY the same thing as saying "just deal with it" or my favorite: "adapt or die". and i think that's pretty close to what vexal was trying to say: just deal/adapt or die.
vexal's post was not begging for constructive criticism. i think it was begging for tolerance of his creative process. if tolerance cannot be summoned, then i think he was saying "bugger off; there are other games to play. life is one of them."
another point you fail to discuss (only because it doesn't fit into your 'con-crit' theme) is that people are breaking the Game-to-RealLife boundary. true, vexal does post his personal information. but that is not an excuse to abuse that.
however, i still feel that he should remove his real life info and make a new facebook page strictly for his map (or multiple maps).
[that one sentence above gave more constructive help than your entire thought process.]
You seem to have neglected the major part of my posts (granted I made the error of only putting it in the first two) in which I detailed one possible way to circumvent it is by implementing a scoring system that dynamically varies the difficulty based upon player performance either based upon win/loss record or wave to wave performance. Thus reducing the need for elitism while still keeping every game challenging. Everything else I said was in support of this by looking at the root cause of why the people playing his map are jerks. If you can't beat em, trick em into being nice.
He said he wants to make his community friendlier. His problem isn't people disliking his creativity since they obviously like his map, but how people are interacting with each other in his map. Things like "The "good" Vexal TD teams all have massive "exclusivity". It is pathetic." or "I said I hate the community that my map is popular with." The only problem people had with him was the joke going wrong. People getting emo over that has to be dealt with and nobody will remember in a few days.
My point was that while a little pessimism isn't bad per se, you're acting as if you should expect people to personally harass you every time you do something you don't like. I really don't think this was 'the only possible outcome'. Anger, sure, but people harassing you whenever you come online? That's some real shit you've got there. Sure, Vexal is 'shouting at the clouds', but hence my constructive advice; show them "who's boss". If he'd shut down his map because of people being assholes, it's not unlikely that at least a couple of them might think "Hey, I yelled at him for doing that lame joke, and now he shut down the entire map - now I can't play my favourite TD. Dammit". And if not that, it should give him the satisfaction of 'harassing back' everybody who harassed him, plus the community he despises.
I think you're overestimating them again. The kind of person who stalks somebody online over a game isn't the kind to take away a subtle life lesson from that. Their response would be more along the lines of "LOLWIN!LOLOLO" Not worth throwing away a popular asset and your namesake to prove a point to internet trolls. And yes, when you do something people on the internet don't like you will hear about it. Repeatedly and loudly. Doesn't mean it's right, but make no mistake, it will happen.
There's no real point in trying to get back at them. Learn what makes em tick and work towards a way to prevent them from mucking up your game and future games.
You seem to have neglected the major part of my posts (granted I made the error of only putting it in the first two) in which I detailed one possible way to circumvent it is by implementing a scoring system that dynamically varies the difficulty based upon player performance either based upon win/loss record or wave to wave performance. Thus reducing the need for elitism while still keeping every game challenging. Everything else I said was in support of this by looking at the root cause of why the people playing his map are jerks. If you can't beat em, trick em into being nice.
He said he wants to make his community friendlier. His problem isn't people disliking his creativity since they obviously like his map, but how people are interacting with each other in his map. Things like "The "good" Vexal TD teams all have massive "exclusivity". It is pathetic." or "I said I hate the community that my map is popular with." The only problem people had with him was the joke going wrong. People getting emo over that has to be dealt with and nobody will remember in a few days.
Maybe now it makes sense.
your posts have always made sense in regards to them pointing out that you really have no basis in fact here...
also, he's right. there actually WERE elitist channels made with exclusivity. and you should hang in the regular vexal channel a bit, or join multiple games before you spew. again, you are just being a pretty troll.
but even your suggestions would break the TEAM aspect of the game... i have long suspected that you don't know what you're talking about in regards to this TD.
A) Misconception of the word 'troll'. Troll != Asshole, or 'somebody you can't prove a point to'. People who harass after a map change are people who just feel the need to swear because they're annoyed, and can. If these were actual trolls, they wouldn't just 'come in and swear' but instead deliver faulty advice and try purposefully to provoke Vexal rather than just yelling at him. That said; I've been in 'the pessimistic world' and while a lot of it is true, claiming that 'everybody else is a moron' is just making the same mistake as modern day emos/hipsters; "I'm all alone in a world of sheep with nobody thinking for themselves =(". People are often stupid, but rarely beyond reason. And shutting down a map of which they harassed the creator really is a fairly obvious way to spread reason.
B) Of course there's a point in getting back at them; satisfaction. People tend to deny the fact that it's a good feeling, but it simply is.
So why not directly address this in the design? This attitude of gamers has been around for decades. Just work with it instead of fighting it.
You put a ton of quality work into balancing, good explosions, the math for build orders, removing cheesy/buggy strategies, etc. Many things about the game are surprisingly precise, and demands refining strategies. Plus you get awards for beating the game on Insane, and even another award for getting 2 million kills. It takes about 20 times or so before you find a strategy that can work, and many more games before you know how to balance it with what your partners on your team are doing. It's only natural that the most OCD and perfectionist jerks are going to flock to this kind of game. That's not going to go away.
I see you've started fixing that. Things like letting people choose their preferred order prior to the game starting. Wonderful change. It stops a lot of pre-game hopping and whining.
Here's some other ideas you could do:
Let people vote on the difficulty, and assign teams accordingly. If enough people want easy, send them to the left side. Everyone else wanting insane or chaos goes to the right side.
Just drop things that aren't used and infuriate people. Nobody wants to play team mode. So why not get rid of it? That would save several early round "ARGH! TEAM MODE!? I'M OUT YOU NOOB HOST!"
Put a note on the load up screen explaining your philosophy. It's surprising how much people will follow an author if the philosophy of the game is laid out. Something like: "Hey, I just want this game to be fun. I think fun games should mean that you'll lose 95% of the time, so don't get upset if you do. Also, if you're OCD or a perfectionist jerk, go away, we don't want you here. The rest of you, enjoy. If you are new, ask for help. If someone else is new, be nice and help them out. If there's a bug I caused, then blame Blizzard, they're an easy scapegoat. :)"
If someone hops into a game with only a few stats, give them helpful messages. "You appear new. It's a good idea to look at the towers carefully and ask your teammates what you should build." Or "You are anchor. Unless you really know what you're doing, humanoid is a good choice for the race in this spot."
Take out the confusing flavor text, and add in strategy text "Marines are great for the first several levels. They shoot air and ground. After that, their attack damage is too weak to really do much..."
Heck, you could even implement some kind of niceness voting system. And give some award/unlock feature for a high enough niceness score. If people are mean, they can be voted down, and have their unlock taken away.
Anyway, I'm just another fan giving advice. Feel free to ignore it. It is your game after all. I do have a blast with this game, and I really enjoy it. I think it's the best TD I've ever played. Despite it driving me crazy so often (Argh, I can't have my lava attack my towers anymore? I'm going to hunt Vexal down and kill him!)
I debated the flavor text for a while. In the end, I concluded it contributed to the map's success. It adds to the mysteriousness. If I told players what to do, it would lessen the fun or challenge if figuring it out.
I believe with each new tower or unit or ability, there should be a phase where the players must experiment with it and figure out just what it is good at. I think it is much more interesting that way.
I think this goes against modern design philosophy where everything is handed directly to players. For example, old games rarely had markers on maps saying where to go next. WoW used unspecific descriptors like "very slightly" instead of numbers.
Not sure if you are still reading this. I love the new changes on the map, the increased cost of the rines, the removal of the fortten ones, etc. I am not too sure what the battleships are all about...sometimes i see them and sometimes i dont...but if thats a perminate part of the game then that means we need to be ready for them with anti air in each spawn location. I manage to fight them off....
As for the shit mail you have been getting. Dont worry about it. Who cares. if people dont like it then they wont play.
With that said, during the start up you have a disclaimer stating that feedback is welcome and i think u provide your contact info. If you dont want feedback remove or re-word that. That is to say if you dont want the opion of others then dont ask.
My thoughts are this...both versions are fun. I would love to see a Vexal - Normal; Vexal - Insane; Vexal Chaos....instead of letting host pick. That may seperate the so called "pros" from the beginners. To me you hurt the new players the most. People that were starting your game for the 1st time. They were barely learning a strategy and now its even harder for anyone to commit to playing with them (btw - I always help new folks....we were all there once). Anyway...take or or leave it (and i know you will and prob should leave it) but thats my thoughts!
You are a great developer and i cant wait to see some of your new towers you have been working on.
Good luck and thanks!
PS Can you include version updates in the startup map...it will help when you make changes going forward. Thanks bro!
I never said that.I said my problems would be solved if there were an invisible or appear offline mode.But that's not even completely true.It just avoids the problem.
That's basically saying but i shouldn't have to. The fact is, Blizz probably isn't going to add those modes, so the only real option you have is to get another account for when you want to play without being bothered...
What I mean to say is, if whether you're a moderator is important to you in the context of this thread, do you really have any business posting here in the first place? I don't think so. Everything you've brought up is irrelevant and you're just attempting to argue.
@MEXaCAN:
I would love to have separate versions. But doing so would split the popularity, resulting in none of the versions from reaching a high page. I don't include version updates for two reasons. One, for the reasons I stated in the previous post. I feel it more interesting for players to have to figure out everything. Even if it takes a month for players to figure out a tower has changed because they rarely built it before, that's fine with me.
And, second, I don't actually write the changes down. I keep everything in my head.
As for keeping the bombers, I'm considering adding them to chaos mode. They are chaotic, after all. I would prefer they correctly revive towers. I am not sure yet.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
@Mozared:
I worry shutting it down will give off the connotation that I proclaim it matters to people if the map is up or not. Given that people play the map, it's probably true that it does matter to people that it's up, but I don't think it's something I should say myself, nor is it something I know for sure to be true. They'll just play something else.
I need to leave the map up to make it easier to give exposure to projects I do care about. When I made my TD, I knew its popularity would be guaranteed. My new project is not so surefire. It's something you'll have to give a bit of a chance to before its awesomeness sinks in.
I'm sure people would be much more willing to sit through a full level of a Valve or Blizzard game before deciding whether it's worth their time, than some game from some company they've never even heard of.
I feel the same principle would apply here. Not that I feel I'm the custom map equivalent of Valve or Blizzard. It was just an example.
I'm not gonna read anything here. That way I wont read all the stupid things I've know Vexal has written about how his map is popular.
Nevermind. I'm not gonna discus a map I've never played because people levee at the start of every game.
Also Vexel, Stop telling people to fuck off, and then making edits. Its.... a bad habit to say things on forums that you have to edit. Instead of pretending that you said something nice at first, try saying: Comment deleted: I'm a troll :P
EDIT: Good luck Mozard, $5 if you get him to shut down his TD.
@grenegg:
You have no business in this thread.
The second (third?) edit is my own.
im going to edit it tho...
Grenegg same to you..dont come into a topic with nothing to say other than telling vexal to not edit his posts, him editing that out of his posts is a GOOD THING. and imo vexal has a right to be mad about this if he wants...[ive read the thread.... you just said your going to post without even readnig...so... not sure what the point was]
@Molsterr: Go
O_o Sorry
I did mean to poin tout the fact, that everytime I play, I hear "WTF are you doing" from someone and then they levee. Or we lose on the first level.
Ya ya ya... maybe I just wanted to point out vexel says a lot of "fuck yous"
@grenegg:
Grenegg, that was the point of this post in the first place. That is why I dislike the community this map appeals to.
If I join a game on my own account, everything goes fine because I suppose the players want to impress me. But if I join a game on a friend's account, it's exactly as you described. All the players usually decide within the first 30 seconds if their teammates are "worthy". It took me ten tries to get past level five (out of 43) yesterday because players just leave at the first sight of mishap.
Nevermind the fact that players disconnect during load half the time because of Battle.net itself.
@Vexal: Go
Sorry if i'm rude and stuff.
I HATE YOUR TD SO MUCH. It like the game thats on fist page that makes no sense and everyone quits before you can figure it out.
I think it is harder to learn your TD then it is others, which if anything, is the source of the problem.
@grenegg:
Just... build towers.
I don't know. I've never even beat it. I've only seen the last level through replays people send me.
I just made towers, levels, and rules I thought were unique and fun. At first I balanced it with a spreadsheet and some math, but I found it much more effective to write the names of all the levels and tower on a board and throw darts with numbers on them to determine the unit stats.
EDIT: I don't think the difficulty to learn is a problem. I intended it so that you can't just do whatever you want to win. I made it so you have to look at the rest of your team to determine what to build. Different levels require different towers, and each player can't afford every tower by the time each is needed. This worked for a while, but unfortunately after a couple months, players started ignoring this. Instead, they sacrifice and accept the consequences of ignoring these mechanics and just save for more powerful towers.
I believe the outrage recently was sparked when I changed the cost of marines from 3 to 6. I lowered the cost of other towers, but people had build orders so stuck into their head, that it didn't matter.
I seem to recall saying on your b.net (autism? dyslexia? i'm really bad remembering these sorts of things :P) that a lot of your problems would be solved if you had a separate personal player account that you didn't tell anyone about. I believe your response was "but i shouldnt haaaavvveee toooo...." I'd reconsider this if it really is that bad.
@RCIX:
I never said that. I said my problems would be solved if there were an invisible or appear offline mode. But that's not even completely true. It just avoids the problem.
I don't see how that is relevant to anything I've said here, and I would appreciate if you do not post in my threads anymore.
Oh, wow. I said that without having to edit anything.
This thread indubitably delivers..... indubitably.
You seem to have neglected the major part of my posts (granted I made the error of only putting it in the first two) in which I detailed one possible way to circumvent it is by implementing a scoring system that dynamically varies the difficulty based upon player performance either based upon win/loss record or wave to wave performance. Thus reducing the need for elitism while still keeping every game challenging. Everything else I said was in support of this by looking at the root cause of why the people playing his map are jerks. If you can't beat em, trick em into being nice.
He said he wants to make his community friendlier. His problem isn't people disliking his creativity since they obviously like his map, but how people are interacting with each other in his map. Things like "The "good" Vexal TD teams all have massive "exclusivity". It is pathetic." or "I said I hate the community that my map is popular with." The only problem people had with him was the joke going wrong. People getting emo over that has to be dealt with and nobody will remember in a few days.
Maybe now it makes sense.
I think you're overestimating them again. The kind of person who stalks somebody online over a game isn't the kind to take away a subtle life lesson from that. Their response would be more along the lines of "LOLWIN!LOLOLO" Not worth throwing away a popular asset and your namesake to prove a point to internet trolls. And yes, when you do something people on the internet don't like you will hear about it. Repeatedly and loudly. Doesn't mean it's right, but make no mistake, it will happen.
There's no real point in trying to get back at them. Learn what makes em tick and work towards a way to prevent them from mucking up your game and future games.
your posts have always made sense in regards to them pointing out that you really have no basis in fact here...
also, he's right. there actually WERE elitist channels made with exclusivity. and you should hang in the regular vexal channel a bit, or join multiple games before you spew. again, you are just being a pretty troll.
but even your suggestions would break the TEAM aspect of the game... i have long suspected that you don't know what you're talking about in regards to this TD.
Two things;
A) Misconception of the word 'troll'. Troll != Asshole, or 'somebody you can't prove a point to'. People who harass after a map change are people who just feel the need to swear because they're annoyed, and can. If these were actual trolls, they wouldn't just 'come in and swear' but instead deliver faulty advice and try purposefully to provoke Vexal rather than just yelling at him. That said; I've been in 'the pessimistic world' and while a lot of it is true, claiming that 'everybody else is a moron' is just making the same mistake as modern day emos/hipsters; "I'm all alone in a world of sheep with nobody thinking for themselves =(". People are often stupid, but rarely beyond reason. And shutting down a map of which they harassed the creator really is a fairly obvious way to spread reason.
B) Of course there's a point in getting back at them; satisfaction. People tend to deny the fact that it's a good feeling, but it simply is.
@Vexal: Go
So why not directly address this in the design? This attitude of gamers has been around for decades. Just work with it instead of fighting it.
You put a ton of quality work into balancing, good explosions, the math for build orders, removing cheesy/buggy strategies, etc. Many things about the game are surprisingly precise, and demands refining strategies. Plus you get awards for beating the game on Insane, and even another award for getting 2 million kills. It takes about 20 times or so before you find a strategy that can work, and many more games before you know how to balance it with what your partners on your team are doing. It's only natural that the most OCD and perfectionist jerks are going to flock to this kind of game. That's not going to go away.
I see you've started fixing that. Things like letting people choose their preferred order prior to the game starting. Wonderful change. It stops a lot of pre-game hopping and whining.
Here's some other ideas you could do:
Anyway, I'm just another fan giving advice. Feel free to ignore it. It is your game after all. I do have a blast with this game, and I really enjoy it. I think it's the best TD I've ever played. Despite it driving me crazy so often (Argh, I can't have my lava attack my towers anymore? I'm going to hunt Vexal down and kill him!)
I debated the flavor text for a while. In the end, I concluded it contributed to the map's success. It adds to the mysteriousness. If I told players what to do, it would lessen the fun or challenge if figuring it out.
I believe with each new tower or unit or ability, there should be a phase where the players must experiment with it and figure out just what it is good at. I think it is much more interesting that way.
I think this goes against modern design philosophy where everything is handed directly to players. For example, old games rarely had markers on maps saying where to go next. WoW used unspecific descriptors like "very slightly" instead of numbers.
I think games are better this way.
@ Vexal
Not sure if you are still reading this. I love the new changes on the map, the increased cost of the rines, the removal of the fortten ones, etc. I am not too sure what the battleships are all about...sometimes i see them and sometimes i dont...but if thats a perminate part of the game then that means we need to be ready for them with anti air in each spawn location. I manage to fight them off....
As for the shit mail you have been getting. Dont worry about it. Who cares. if people dont like it then they wont play.
With that said, during the start up you have a disclaimer stating that feedback is welcome and i think u provide your contact info. If you dont want feedback remove or re-word that. That is to say if you dont want the opion of others then dont ask.
My thoughts are this...both versions are fun. I would love to see a Vexal - Normal; Vexal - Insane; Vexal Chaos....instead of letting host pick. That may seperate the so called "pros" from the beginners. To me you hurt the new players the most. People that were starting your game for the 1st time. They were barely learning a strategy and now its even harder for anyone to commit to playing with them (btw - I always help new folks....we were all there once). Anyway...take or or leave it (and i know you will and prob should leave it) but thats my thoughts!
You are a great developer and i cant wait to see some of your new towers you have been working on.
Good luck and thanks!
PS Can you include version updates in the startup map...it will help when you make changes going forward. Thanks bro!
That's basically saying but i shouldn't have to. The fact is, Blizz probably isn't going to add those modes, so the only real option you have is to get another account for when you want to play without being bothered...
Er, last i checked, you're not a moderator. Which means you have no real power over whether I post in a thread or not :P
@RCIX:
F-
What I mean to say is, if whether you're a moderator is important to you in the context of this thread, do you really have any business posting here in the first place? I don't think so. Everything you've brought up is irrelevant and you're just attempting to argue.
@MEXaCAN:
I would love to have separate versions. But doing so would split the popularity, resulting in none of the versions from reaching a high page. I don't include version updates for two reasons. One, for the reasons I stated in the previous post. I feel it more interesting for players to have to figure out everything. Even if it takes a month for players to figure out a tower has changed because they rarely built it before, that's fine with me.
And, second, I don't actually write the changes down. I keep everything in my head.
As for keeping the bombers, I'm considering adding them to chaos mode. They are chaotic, after all. I would prefer they correctly revive towers. I am not sure yet.