I understand that you gain more knowledge of a task if you complete it yourself; if you progress through the steps and have no one help or do it for you.
My frustration is with the way that pros claim to no experience of having help, they go on and say things like, "figure it out yourself", "I did it myself so can you", "That's too easy come back when you have a challenge"...
Anyone with familiar with editing knows that there are times that you cannot find the answers, and those times are when you wish someone would just tell you. My question for any "pros who know it all" is why? Why would you be rude and give someone a cold shoulder when theyre asking you for your knowledge? You wanted help, and because you got the cold shoulder you pass it on?
There are a few good editors out there... the better ones are those that share their wealth and contribute to the joy of editing... rather than push off the "noobs" and make them feel like so.
Random post lol... but I can speak from the other side and say yes it's awesome helping people... but conversely I receive a lot of random youtube messages/comments with very vague questions/problems and expect me to just know instantly... and in some cases I can do that, but a lot of the other times I have to ignore and just let them work it out.
Not to single anyone out, but here's a youtube post recently on one of my vids: "Hey, you gotta help me... My ability similar to one you maded (Spirit Bolt) requires a target to be unit. I don't understand i did everything same as you did... "
There's not much I can do about that unless I went into a long conversation or actually fixed his map myself (which I've done in the past, but as you can imagine, time is limited!).
However, when I receive well-thought out emails with clear questions, it's an absolute pleasure to help. Here's an example from an Italian mapper I talked to a while back: I followed the steps of your "advanced TD tutorial" on youtube (part 6 i guess) and i tried to morph a photon cannon(actor) into a pylon(actor).
The model changes correctly into a pylon, but i'm having a strange problem with it, there are some weird green squares glowing upon it(i attached a screenshot of it).
If i just place the upgraded unit(pylon) with the editor, it doesn't have this problem.
In the screenshot i attached the pylons on the bottom are placed with the editor and are the same unit of the one in the middle, having the "green squares" problem, upgraded in game.
While I may not have been able to solve his problem exactly, you can see the quality of his question. Emailing me directly (and my email is public) is much better than posting on one of my vids :)
Anyway, hope you and your angry pro editor friend can work it out Darc.
What Moz said. I don't really know any angry editors (Apart from them. Well, Rodrigo isn't actually angry...)
And yea, I also sometimes say "mess around a bit [yourself]" - But I dont mean it as a "Do it yourself and leave me alone", but I usually mention what are of the editor you should try out - I simply don't know all fields of the data editor and actions and functions of the trigger editor by heart, and most of the questions asked are easily solved by simply looking at the fields/actions/functions related to the question. (Q: "Player 1 isnt the first player slot in the lobby?" A: "Look through functions, type player in search bar, see "Player on Team" Things like this. I think actually searching for lobby slot will have that function pop up as well.)
There are a lot of questions that are easily answered by just trying to find a solution on yourself. This is easier in triggers than data though, as triggers aren't divided into different categories (Well, in a sense they are, but you can browse almost all at the same time), whereas in data you've got a ton of different tabs, multiple of which are needed to achieve a single thing. (An ability needs the ability tab, the behavior tab every now and then, effects, actors, buttons,sometimes requirements and validator as well) so you can't really look through it that easily.
That isn't an excuse not to answer those questions though.
Then there are those problems that can't easily be solved by just figuring it out yourself. I spent two hours today trying to get a build abilities "Instant placement" flag to work, and while I did get it to work, I have no idea how, lol. I don't remember even seeing a thread with such a problem in which the reply was simply "Figure it out yourself" though. I could have just missed them though...
I spent the first few months from about July 2010 until December 2010, religiously learning all I could about the Editor and compiling into various wiki's which existed at the time..
It was a thankless task, and when it dawned on me that I had university exams, a girlfriend and a social life to uphold - I stopped. But mainly, I realised just how much knowledge the editor contained.
I do agree with you on a certain level, however. I wish all threads on sc2mapster would have detailed replies, explaining how to do stuff. I understand if you've been here a while, you can get fed up of the same questions over and over again - resulting in a blunt but to the point answer - such as "Use this field", or "Look under this object".
But, to balance this people must learn to use the forum search because otherwise what is standard common knowledge is simply being regurgitated thousands of times. Yet, still, when I use the search for a slightly obscure problem I'm having, because I'm convinced others have experienced it in the past... I turn up a handful of threads, each with vague, nondescript answers - or my favourite... when the thread author has replied with: "Omg, never mind. I fixed it."...
Oh, people replied... had this tab amongst my hundreds of others. Oh well :) Random Topic, Random Rant Reply.
I spent the first few months from about July 2010 until December 2010, religiously learning all I could about the Editor and compiling into various wiki's which existed at the time..
It was a thankless task, and when it dawned on me that I had university exams, a girlfriend and a social life to uphold - I stopped. But mainly, I realised just how much knowledge the editor contained.
I do agree with you on a certain level, however. I wish all threads on sc2mapster would have detailed replies, explaining how to do stuff. I understand if you've been here a while, you can get fed up of the same questions over and over again - resulting in a blunt but to the point answer - such as "Use this field", or "Look under this object".
But, to balance this people must learn to use the forum search because otherwise what is standard common knowledge is simply being regurgitated thousands of times. Yet, still, when I use the search for a slightly obscure problem I'm having, because I'm convinced others have experienced it in the past... I turn up a handful of threads, each with vague, nondescript answers - or my favourite... when the thread author has replied with: "Omg, never mind. I fixed it."...
Oh, people replied... had this tab amongst my hundreds of others. Oh well :) Random Topic, Random Rant Reply.
That's when you start terraining. It's where the cool kids are at, plus we have a FAQ.
Ironically enough terraining iis, out of triggering, data, and terraining, the one which would least need a FAQ lol.
Anyway, I often tell people to mess around with the editor because it genuinely is the best way of learning how to use it. I know, it takes a long time (I've been using the editor for over a year and I'm still crap with the data editor lol), but it is overall the best way to learn IMO.
Oh man I gotta agree about your last point lol... I wish people would always post their answer they 'figured out' :D
I always put a lot of explanation to my posts how I did it, so that I can look back to them and others too, in case anything is found useful. Btw nice tutorials there, so far all your tuts helped me.
I've always found sc2mapster to be more helpful than any other place I've seen, they are ready to answer your questions but are only hard on making things for you, which is fine, with enough help you could do it yourself, when it's triggers orr data. As for model requests, it has always been hard to get help for, so it's not worse here, just normal ^^
I don't know that much pro editors around here... Actually, I only know of one beside myself. I don't remember saying to a newbie "learn by yourself you dumb shit" or anything meaning he's not good enough to use/learn the editor (though I am very harsh when it comes to people who think they can handle an entire mod/conversion with no professional background/experience in game design whatsoever). I try to help people whatever is their problem, even if the question has been asked multiple times or I don't have an accurate answer. And I know for sure there are lots of people here ready to help. I asked for help a few times (especially the first weeks I started using the editor) and every member answered politely and accurately.
You have to admit though, whether you're pro or not, it's kind of boring to give an answer that has already been given 10 times, if not more. People should learn to read and browse, search on their own... SC2Mapster forums are a real gold mine, I found 95% of my answers by just searching for topics about the issues I had. Newbies also tend to think we're going to tutor them, asking one question after another about (again) things that were already answered everywhere. I'm not trying to defend those who take newbies for pieces of trash, but you have to admit some newbies are just taking advantage of our kindness sometimes...
There is no instructions manual for level editors (and creative content in general), so you'll have to learn on your own at some point. I'm trying to make newbies understand this as well when I answer them, because we all have better things to do than just teaching them how it works. The only difference is I try to do it as politely as I can, and I know most of us are not being aggressive/impolite towards newbies either. We're saints compared to the TL forums ([TROLL]and the quality of our maps is way better overall[/TROLL]), if you ask me...
Yea, I've been on team liquid. Glad I came here because the content is very.. much? theres so much. Problem I have with this sight is that search box on the top right doesnt seem to provide as accurate of results as i have had on bnet and tl., and the approval time for things that come in millions, like a team, a map.. ect.
I have had my fair share of run ins.. .with goods and bads of editors... I think the goods should just go here and tl takes the bads. this way I can avoid wanting to lose my cool for the sake a teaching someone some manors. The world is not a polite place but wth is wrong with making a gaming experience fun. I know a lot of ppl dont try.. they do take advantage and u do have to "weed" them out lol sorry.. ur own effort is required. But my effort here is to address the chums who feel high and mighty cuz they do know a lot... or just more than the other. It's like they just pass on the bad treatement they recieved and the cycle just goes and goes. There has to be a limit.
I spent the first few months from about July 2010 until December 2010, religiously learning all I could about the Editor and compiling into various wiki's which existed at the time..
It was a thankless task, and when it dawned on me that I had university exams, a girlfriend and a social life to uphold - I stopped. But mainly, I realised just how much knowledge the editor contained.
I do agree with you on a certain level, however. I wish all threads on sc2mapster would have detailed replies, explaining how to do stuff. I understand if you've been here a while, you can get fed up of the same questions over and over again - resulting in a blunt but to the point answer - such as "Use this field", or "Look under this object".
But, to balance this people must learn to use the forum search because otherwise what is standard common knowledge is simply being regurgitated thousands of times. Yet, still, when I use the search for a slightly obscure problem I'm having, because I'm convinced others have experienced it in the past... I turn up a handful of threads, each with vague, nondescript answers - or my favourite... when the thread author has replied with: "Omg, never mind. I fixed it."...
Oh, people replied... had this tab amongst my hundreds of others. Oh well :) Random Topic, Random Rant Reply.
You're awesome for saying what you said. about detailed descriptions lol.. I tried doing something like that on bnet and got told to stop. .that they were getting tired of seeing my thread at the top of the list with answered questions... and "stupid" questions that "anybody" could figure out.
Usually "pro" means "professional", meaning the person being referred to is actually earning their living from such activities. I wasn't aware there was such a thing in the sc2 map making community...who's actually making money on this stuff?
Usually "pro" means "professional", meaning the person being referred to is actually earning their living from such activities. I wasn't aware there was such a thing in the sc2 map making community...who's actually making money on this stuff?
Take it that way, you feel weak at mapmaking? Then be good at Dota/Sotis (YUCK dotards)/1v1 and you will feel the same if someone who can't play it enters. Where you're not good you just keep silence and not complain }:>
Well imma ignore the mods post and everyone elses (NO OFFEnSE), but honestly if you can't get an answer then I would suggest going to the IRC channel and asking for help on ASPECTS like asking how to spawn a unit or something stupid like that, ask for small parts of a much larger trigger and put it together yourself, Also I would suggest having someone edit your map for you, and have them tell you how to do something better, Its how alot of the community learns.
Im no "PRO" but i am getting there slowly.
Also attend Terraining thursday and Newbie wednesday, I dont know if you have noticed but I spam the Newb wed forum with questions, AWESOME place. :D
Also By edit, I mean have someone look over your work... so you can do it the BEST WAY!!!
that's terrible advice lmao and yes i know your a mod but please understand the issues in the battle.net community need to be dealt with not ignored... aka the people who treat everyone else like garbage... lie to everyone... Etc. anyways i know i might be considered a derailer of this thread... but i agree with the op... lmao. btw on another note data is easy triggering now there's the challenge...
Well imma ignore the mods post and everyone elses (NO OFFEnSE), but honestly if you can't get an answer then I would suggest going to the IRC channel and asking for help on ASPECTS like asking how to spawn a unit or something stupid like that, ask for small parts of a much larger trigger and put it together yourself, Also I would suggest having someone edit your map for you, and have them tell you how to do something better, Its how alot of the community learns.
Im no "PRO" but i am getting there slowly.
Also attend Terraining thursday and Newbie wednesday, I dont know if you have noticed but I spam the Newb wed forum with questions, AWESOME place. :D
Also By edit, I mean have someone look over your work... so you can do it the BEST WAY!!!
im no pro either cause i suck at triggering but i have someone to help me with that. sadly he's gonna be away for 2 weeks or rather 12 more days...
oh and btw i almost forgot to mention one thing: blizzard is trying to fix popularity system lmao we'll see if it works. i don't know if what Sixen said is true but it may be so lets hope... edit complete...
The popularity system is also very "guided" by "angry pro editors".
Think about it.... Noobs cant ask for help, and finding the answer has been proven to be somewhat diffcult. Seriously, you'd think that after all this time of the fiddling with the editor and the noobs it has chewed and spit out, all questiones would have been publicly addressed. Nope!
Sadly, the way to make an overmind (hardly original at all!) to function as the next building above the Hive is not at all common?? am I the only one who thought of this?? i think not and many other stupid little questions i remember pissing my pants about... pylon power field range?? lol anyway they arent common enough I guess... so those that know the answers will make great maps and unfortunately some do have an attitude. those with the attitude are the ones that divide the sharks from the fish.. and if u follow the metaphor fish are the ones with all the color.. potential uniqueness.
Hey this is a good point about the search bar on sc2mapster. It is pretty bad sometimes at finding results. For some reason almost all of the good results get scattered amongst 5-6 pages, with completely irrelevant results making up most of the list.
Anyone else found that? It's not a big deal but it seems inaccurate.
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I understand that you gain more knowledge of a task if you complete it yourself; if you progress through the steps and have no one help or do it for you.
My frustration is with the way that pros claim to no experience of having help, they go on and say things like, "figure it out yourself", "I did it myself so can you", "That's too easy come back when you have a challenge"...
Anyone with familiar with editing knows that there are times that you cannot find the answers, and those times are when you wish someone would just tell you. My question for any "pros who know it all" is why? Why would you be rude and give someone a cold shoulder when theyre asking you for your knowledge? You wanted help, and because you got the cold shoulder you pass it on?
There are a few good editors out there... the better ones are those that share their wealth and contribute to the joy of editing... rather than push off the "noobs" and make them feel like so.
"You either are doing it, or you are not": Me
Team Genesis: Founder/Leader
Skype: Grasso2012 or Add me in-game 558
Free Model Developing Program: http://www.autodesk.com/education/free-software/maya
Random post lol... but I can speak from the other side and say yes it's awesome helping people... but conversely I receive a lot of random youtube messages/comments with very vague questions/problems and expect me to just know instantly... and in some cases I can do that, but a lot of the other times I have to ignore and just let them work it out.
Not to single anyone out, but here's a youtube post recently on one of my vids: "Hey, you gotta help me... My ability similar to one you maded (Spirit Bolt) requires a target to be unit. I don't understand i did everything same as you did... "
There's not much I can do about that unless I went into a long conversation or actually fixed his map myself (which I've done in the past, but as you can imagine, time is limited!).
However, when I receive well-thought out emails with clear questions, it's an absolute pleasure to help. Here's an example from an Italian mapper I talked to a while back:
I followed the steps of your "advanced TD tutorial" on youtube (part 6 i guess) and i tried to morph a photon cannon(actor) into a pylon(actor).
The model changes correctly into a pylon, but i'm having a strange problem with it, there are some weird green squares glowing upon it(i attached a screenshot of it).
If i just place the upgraded unit(pylon) with the editor, it doesn't have this problem.
In the screenshot i attached the pylons on the bottom are placed with the editor and are the same unit of the one in the middle, having the "green squares" problem, upgraded in game.
While I may not have been able to solve his problem exactly, you can see the quality of his question. Emailing me directly (and my email is public) is much better than posting on one of my vids :)
Anyway, hope you and your angry pro editor friend can work it out Darc.
Angry pro editors? I'm pretty sure that's just Mephs, Dogmai and Rodrigo.
What Moz said. I don't really know any angry editors (Apart from them. Well, Rodrigo isn't actually angry...)
And yea, I also sometimes say "mess around a bit [yourself]" - But I dont mean it as a "Do it yourself and leave me alone", but I usually mention what are of the editor you should try out - I simply don't know all fields of the data editor and actions and functions of the trigger editor by heart, and most of the questions asked are easily solved by simply looking at the fields/actions/functions related to the question. (Q: "Player 1 isnt the first player slot in the lobby?" A: "Look through functions, type player in search bar, see "Player on Team" Things like this. I think actually searching for lobby slot will have that function pop up as well.)
There are a lot of questions that are easily answered by just trying to find a solution on yourself. This is easier in triggers than data though, as triggers aren't divided into different categories (Well, in a sense they are, but you can browse almost all at the same time), whereas in data you've got a ton of different tabs, multiple of which are needed to achieve a single thing. (An ability needs the ability tab, the behavior tab every now and then, effects, actors, buttons,sometimes requirements and validator as well) so you can't really look through it that easily. That isn't an excuse not to answer those questions though.
Then there are those problems that can't easily be solved by just figuring it out yourself. I spent two hours today trying to get a build abilities "Instant placement" flag to work, and while I did get it to work, I have no idea how, lol. I don't remember even seeing a thread with such a problem in which the reply was simply "Figure it out yourself" though. I could have just missed them though...
@DarcZaFire: Go
I spent the first few months from about July 2010 until December 2010, religiously learning all I could about the Editor and compiling into various wiki's which existed at the time..
It was a thankless task, and when it dawned on me that I had university exams, a girlfriend and a social life to uphold - I stopped. But mainly, I realised just how much knowledge the editor contained.
I do agree with you on a certain level, however. I wish all threads on sc2mapster would have detailed replies, explaining how to do stuff. I understand if you've been here a while, you can get fed up of the same questions over and over again - resulting in a blunt but to the point answer - such as "Use this field", or "Look under this object".
But, to balance this people must learn to use the forum search because otherwise what is standard common knowledge is simply being regurgitated thousands of times. Yet, still, when I use the search for a slightly obscure problem I'm having, because I'm convinced others have experienced it in the past... I turn up a handful of threads, each with vague, nondescript answers - or my favourite... when the thread author has replied with: "Omg, never mind. I fixed it."...
Oh, people replied... had this tab amongst my hundreds of others. Oh well :) Random Topic, Random Rant Reply.
@Nardival: Go
Oh man I gotta agree about your last point lol... I wish people would always post their answer they 'figured out' :D
That's when you start terraining. It's where the cool kids are at, plus we have a FAQ.
:D
@Mozared: Go
Ironically enough terraining iis, out of triggering, data, and terraining, the one which would least need a FAQ lol.
Anyway, I often tell people to mess around with the editor because it genuinely is the best way of learning how to use it. I know, it takes a long time (I've been using the editor for over a year and I'm still crap with the data editor lol), but it is overall the best way to learn IMO.
I always put a lot of explanation to my posts how I did it, so that I can look back to them and others too, in case anything is found useful. Btw nice tutorials there, so far all your tuts helped me.
I've always found sc2mapster to be more helpful than any other place I've seen, they are ready to answer your questions but are only hard on making things for you, which is fine, with enough help you could do it yourself, when it's triggers orr data. As for model requests, it has always been hard to get help for, so it's not worse here, just normal ^^
I don't know that much pro editors around here... Actually, I only know of one beside myself. I don't remember saying to a newbie "learn by yourself you dumb shit" or anything meaning he's not good enough to use/learn the editor (though I am very harsh when it comes to people who think they can handle an entire mod/conversion with no professional background/experience in game design whatsoever). I try to help people whatever is their problem, even if the question has been asked multiple times or I don't have an accurate answer. And I know for sure there are lots of people here ready to help. I asked for help a few times (especially the first weeks I started using the editor) and every member answered politely and accurately.
You have to admit though, whether you're pro or not, it's kind of boring to give an answer that has already been given 10 times, if not more. People should learn to read and browse, search on their own... SC2Mapster forums are a real gold mine, I found 95% of my answers by just searching for topics about the issues I had. Newbies also tend to think we're going to tutor them, asking one question after another about (again) things that were already answered everywhere. I'm not trying to defend those who take newbies for pieces of trash, but you have to admit some newbies are just taking advantage of our kindness sometimes...
There is no instructions manual for level editors (and creative content in general), so you'll have to learn on your own at some point. I'm trying to make newbies understand this as well when I answer them, because we all have better things to do than just teaching them how it works. The only difference is I try to do it as politely as I can, and I know most of us are not being aggressive/impolite towards newbies either. We're saints compared to the TL forums ([TROLL]and the quality of our maps is way better overall[/TROLL]), if you ask me...
@ZealNaga: Go
Yea, I've been on team liquid. Glad I came here because the content is very.. much? theres so much. Problem I have with this sight is that search box on the top right doesnt seem to provide as accurate of results as i have had on bnet and tl., and the approval time for things that come in millions, like a team, a map.. ect. I have had my fair share of run ins.. .with goods and bads of editors... I think the goods should just go here and tl takes the bads. this way I can avoid wanting to lose my cool for the sake a teaching someone some manors. The world is not a polite place but wth is wrong with making a gaming experience fun. I know a lot of ppl dont try.. they do take advantage and u do have to "weed" them out lol sorry.. ur own effort is required. But my effort here is to address the chums who feel high and mighty cuz they do know a lot... or just more than the other. It's like they just pass on the bad treatement they recieved and the cycle just goes and goes. There has to be a limit.
"You either are doing it, or you are not": Me
Team Genesis: Founder/Leader
Skype: Grasso2012 or Add me in-game 558
Free Model Developing Program: http://www.autodesk.com/education/free-software/maya
You're awesome for saying what you said. about detailed descriptions lol.. I tried doing something like that on bnet and got told to stop. .that they were getting tired of seeing my thread at the top of the list with answered questions... and "stupid" questions that "anybody" could figure out.
"You either are doing it, or you are not": Me
Team Genesis: Founder/Leader
Skype: Grasso2012 or Add me in-game 558
Free Model Developing Program: http://www.autodesk.com/education/free-software/maya
Usually "pro" means "professional", meaning the person being referred to is actually earning their living from such activities. I wasn't aware there was such a thing in the sc2 map making community...who's actually making money on this stuff?
Blizzard :D
I'll stop semi-trolling the thread now.
@DarcZaFire: Go
Stop whining. Dont expect anything. Be happy for what you get. You cant change people. Stfu more often, and be happy;-).
Take it that way, you feel weak at mapmaking? Then be good at Dota/Sotis (YUCK dotards)/1v1 and you will feel the same if someone who can't play it enters. Where you're not good you just keep silence and not complain }:>
Well imma ignore the mods post and everyone elses (NO OFFEnSE), but honestly if you can't get an answer then I would suggest going to the IRC channel and asking for help on ASPECTS like asking how to spawn a unit or something stupid like that, ask for small parts of a much larger trigger and put it together yourself, Also I would suggest having someone edit your map for you, and have them tell you how to do something better, Its how alot of the community learns.
Im no "PRO" but i am getting there slowly.
Also attend Terraining thursday and Newbie wednesday, I dont know if you have noticed but I spam the Newb wed forum with questions, AWESOME place. :D
Also By edit, I mean have someone look over your work... so you can do it the BEST WAY!!!
@EternalWraith: Go
that's terrible advice lmao and yes i know your a mod but please understand the issues in the battle.net community need to be dealt with not ignored... aka the people who treat everyone else like garbage... lie to everyone... Etc. anyways i know i might be considered a derailer of this thread... but i agree with the op... lmao. btw on another note data is easy triggering now there's the challenge...
nah rodrigo is not angry he's funny and crazy. lmao.
im no pro either cause i suck at triggering but i have someone to help me with that. sadly he's gonna be away for 2 weeks or rather 12 more days...
oh and btw i almost forgot to mention one thing: blizzard is trying to fix popularity system lmao we'll see if it works. i don't know if what Sixen said is true but it may be so lets hope... edit complete...
@XenoYoxa: Go
The popularity system is also very "guided" by "angry pro editors". Think about it.... Noobs cant ask for help, and finding the answer has been proven to be somewhat diffcult. Seriously, you'd think that after all this time of the fiddling with the editor and the noobs it has chewed and spit out, all questiones would have been publicly addressed. Nope!
Sadly, the way to make an overmind (hardly original at all!) to function as the next building above the Hive is not at all common?? am I the only one who thought of this?? i think not and many other stupid little questions i remember pissing my pants about... pylon power field range?? lol anyway they arent common enough I guess... so those that know the answers will make great maps and unfortunately some do have an attitude. those with the attitude are the ones that divide the sharks from the fish.. and if u follow the metaphor fish are the ones with all the color.. potential uniqueness.
"You either are doing it, or you are not": Me
Team Genesis: Founder/Leader
Skype: Grasso2012 or Add me in-game 558
Free Model Developing Program: http://www.autodesk.com/education/free-software/maya
@DarcZaFire: Go
Hey this is a good point about the search bar on sc2mapster. It is pretty bad sometimes at finding results. For some reason almost all of the good results get scattered amongst 5-6 pages, with completely irrelevant results making up most of the list.
Anyone else found that? It's not a big deal but it seems inaccurate.