Hello everyone, I've followed the Warcraft 3 mapping scene for a long time, I've made maps (also for Sc1), never really published any but I was very familiar with JASS and the editor. I've made and watched died 3 map makings clan in Wc3:RoC and Wc3:TFT, plus I've tried the Galaxy editor for Sc2.
I've seen the evolution of map making taking place from Starcraft 1, Warcraft 3 and Starcraft 2 and I wanted to share my point on the actual philosphy of making maps in Starcraft 2 and why I think it 'fails'.
First of all, Starcraft 2 gives you A LOT of freedom for original ideas, units, triggers, scripts and such but that doesn't mean the quality of maps has increased, in fact, it has decreased, here's, what I personally think, is the problem:
Innovation Factor
The problem here is not the ideas, it's why they're developed for in the first place. Let's take a random FPS mod for exemple, sure it's possible to make it in Starcraft 2, sure it works and you can make a nice map with it, but does it mean it belongs in Starcraft 2? Is it because you can make those kind of games in the engine that you should? Let's take another exemple, BeJeweled, sure cool it works and its doable in Starcraft 2, but why play it over a random java BeJeweled game from the internet? There's no point in making it in Starcraft 2.
Spells and Effects
There was a trend in the late Warcraft 3 Maps to make spells effect very blown out of proportions and very beautiful, it worked at a certain limit because Warcraft 3 Effects in themselves were lacking, they were, for the most part, simple glows, particles and sprites. In Starcraft 2 however, a simple tank explosion has refraction, smoke particles, debrits, shaders etc. which are already fully complete. Maps like SotIS have spells that create 5 psychic storms in line then electrocutes the ground and stuff, it's too much, you don't see the units and the game anymore, it's not enjoyable.
Main Unit Importance
This is mostly for maps that focus on on hero units, in Warcraft 3, your units were big, they glowed and you knew it was your hero, (the glow even had team color!) but in Starcraft 2, if you decide to make a map where your hero is a zergling, you barely see the team color, you barely see your unit at all. Focus on uniqueness of your controlled unit and to whom it belongs. At least increase it's size by a good amount.
Terrain and Doodads
Okay, there's a lot of good sprites, lightning sets and terrain tiles you can use in Sc2, you can even paint your terrain, wow! There's a problem though, your map has to be playable, it's not a work of art that you want your players to look at, you want them to, by looking at your terrain, understand exactly where they can and they cannot go. Here's an exemple from SotIS vs Blizzard's DotA
The bigger problem is the lack of innovation, the higher % of maps is just remakes from older wc3 maps that were already played a lot. What's the reason to remake them?
One of the cause for me is that a good part of the editor is broken and we can't simply make new maps based on the innovations that were introduced on sc2.
I'm talking obviously of the controls lag that won't allow us to make any decent arcade/fps/whatever map that requires keyboard or mouse direct input.
I disagree with you 99.9% on your terrain comment. In my opinion, beautiful terrain is one of the most important factors of immersion, which is one thing that will keep people playing for a long time. You seem to say that it doesn't matter how good the terrain looks so long as players know what to do. Using that logic, a terrain like this would be acceptable.
Innovation Factor
The problem here is not the ideas, it's why they're developed for in the first place. Let's take a random FPS mod for example, sure it's possible to make it in Starcraft 2, sure it works and you can make a nice map with it, but does it mean it belongs in Starcraft 2? Is it because you can make those kind of games in the engine that you should? Let's take another example, BeJeweled, sure cool it works and its doable in Starcraft 2, but why play it over a random java BeJeweled game from the internet? There's no point in making it in Starcraft 2.
I thought that people make maps because they like concepts/experience and they want to recreate similar experience with given tools, and then perhaps share it. For me, as player it's always interesting to see all the different kind of maps for all tastes populating b-net. I think it's cool to see much different stuff on b-net. I don't think that bountys Battlefield Egypt was published on EU, but I thought that it fitted nicely (judging from videos). About Bejeweled, have you looked at Blizzards Starjeweled? It's at the bottom of P2 on EU, and that means a huge success. 27k bookmarks, 401 h. played. I think it was worth it.
It's fun to play different games with same SC2 friend. It's cool to sometimes play something different. And people should continue to make different things so that we can all grow, inspire and learn from each other.
But I understand where you're coming from. "Different/unique" maps have hard time because most of population go to play custom maps for either specific interest map types (MOBA/TD/Some coop game) or to relax from ladder by playing either something to hone their melee skills or something that is based on melee (something with similar/familiar concepts). At least that's what I thought, might be wrong.
Okay, there's a lot of good sprites, lightning sets and terrain tiles you can use in Sc2, you can even paint your terrain, wow! There's a problem though, your map has to be playable, it's not a work of art that you want your players to look at, you want them to, by looking at your terrain, understand exactly where they can and they cannot go. Here's an exemple from SotIS vs Blizzard's DotA
Above all else, terrain must be functional, but with tools given to us I will look down upon any map that doesn't make use of them (when it could). You can and you should combine art and functionality, no excuses (unless it's intentional, but then you better have a good reason).
WC3 was better because the maps were owned by you rather than Blizz, so you could break all the copyright laws you wanted (Well, not all of them, but I think you get what I mean) and they wouldn't ban your map.
WC3 was better because the maps were owned by you rather than Blizz, so you could break all the copyright laws you wanted (Well, not all of them, but I think you get what I mean) and they wouldn't ban your map.
They did still own your map, they just didn't have a way to enforce it. Now they do.
WC3 was better because the maps were owned by you rather than Blizz, so you could break all the copyright laws you wanted (Well, not all of them, but I think you get what I mean) and they wouldn't ban your map.
WC3 was more alive with its hosting and custom-game-naming system. Editor was accessible to wider audience. Maps took less time and effort to make. More content to flow around, more people are inspired to make their own stuff, more iterations and refinement of ideas. And silly things expressed through immaturity(daamn you modern censorship!) were also good and fun. It felt like peoples game, rather that corporate machine.
Gonna have to disagree on terrain as well. I agree that in, for example SOTIS, it's terrible, but the hallmark of a good terrainer is he who can make a terrain that serves as eye-candy while not making the map undiscernable. The other things you've named also seem mostly pet peeves; some maps (like SOTIS) suffer from the disco spell effect syndrome, yeah, but that's not what's keeping map making in general down. I reckon your 'lack of innovation' is the problem - there isn't a lot more innovation possible within the editor, I think most possible genres got explored in WC3.
We should see some interesting single player stuff at the least though with the HOTS release - if they really allow us to link maps and make it easier for mapmakers to recreate the RPG parts from the real campaign, we're gonna see creativity going wild.
Well, IMO the thing that is shrewd about SC2 mapping is the popularity system. New players get spoonfed with the current top listers that they dont bother to look for more. In WC3, theres a heck a lot of map databases that people can simply browse, and decide which ones are good according to themselves; not because a certain map has been played over ** times.
There are maps out there that are very creative and original in concept; but they just lack the audience.
SOTIS terrain sure looks crap..... what I think good terrain would be something along the lines of Blizz maps, clear, concise, and not taxing performance-wise.
As for creativity, I agree with Mozared; most of that creativity was from WC3. SOTIS is as well, a Dota-like game; a concept that got popular in WC3. There isnt much to do in SC2 since WC3's strong mapping community has been what, innovating for 10 years? Other than FPS games that got trigger support and maps like Starjeweled that benefit from the quite free modding of the UI, I think most game concepts have been pretty much explored.
But anyway, yeah it's weird how the creativity has been down since wc3. I think it's because wc3 gave you a lot more base assets to use. The Galaxy editor is more advanced; not every 'designer' can make a map anymore... but in wc3 they might have been able to a lot faster. But also, maybe it's related to the popularity list and seeding. (In WC3) If some random dude slaps together a map and decides to host it and 12 people play it... and one of those gets an idea and then does something similar but better... and then eventually a skilled mapper takes it on and then voila you have dark deeds or dota or w/e...
Well, with friends at LANs we still play WC3 (with our massive custom map folder), it's a lot of fun. We never play SC2 :/
But I'm all hopeful for the future... this is $*@*#@@#) Blizzard!
Well, since StarCraft 2 doesn't provide constant money income (like WoW) I don't think that Blizzard will pay that much attention to the custom map community. Of course they adress some issues and provide solutions, but I don't expect anything big coming soon. We will see what difference HotS will make.
I talked to many people regarding custom maps in StarCraft 2 and most said that something doesn't feel right, but they cannot identify it. I for one think that it's the setting. WarCraft 3 was a RTS, but with RPG Elements and felt much more like a game about fantasy. Whereas StarCraft 2 is just 'science fiction'; actually all maps have something to do with science fiction and so it's like playing in the same world over and over again. In this game you control a Marine, in the other one you build towers that are mechanical. All the same for me. Of course, in WarCraft 3 it was all fantasy, too. But it felt different. It is hard to explain.
Maybe it's just me and I lack ideas for a world of science fiction, but nothing amazes me when I play a map on battle.net anymore. And I'm not talking about the quality of the maps there.
ALOT of maps arent getting made or should I say published that could be great simply because of the 20 map restrictions...
But everyone should remember maps in SC1 Sucked, and Maps In WC3 RoC sucked, BW and TFT maps were much better... we arent in expansion stages yet, wait till the void... then you will see the best maps..
Well, since StarCraft 2 doesn't provide constant money income (like WoW) I don't think that Blizzard will pay that much attention to the custom map community. Of course they adress some issues and provide solutions, but I don't expect anything big coming soon. We will see what difference HotS will make.
I talked to many people regarding custom maps in StarCraft 2 and most said that something doesn't feel right, but they cannot identify it. I for one think that it's the setting. WarCraft 3 was a RTS, but with RPG Elements and felt much more like a game about fantasy. Whereas StarCraft 2 is just 'science fiction'; actually all maps have something to do with science fiction and so it's like playing in the same world over and over again. In this game you control a Marine, in the other one you build towers that are mechanical. All the same for me. Of course, in WarCraft 3 it was all fantasy, too. But it felt different. It is hard to explain.
Maybe it's just me and I lack ideas for a world of science fiction, but nothing amazes me when I play a map on battle.net anymore. And I'm not talking about the quality of the maps there.
What I think you're aiming at is the fact that Warcraft 3 is more generic. Knights in armour, knights on horses, brutal Orcs, undead zombies... run of the mill medieval fantasy stuff. A vampire hunters map works great in WC3 because Dreadlords can actually double as vampires. Footmen double as knights. Peasants double as citizens of a city. Shades double as ghosts. Etc. The Starcraft universe is a lot more original and defined: a marine is simply an astronaut with a huge gun. He doesn't double as anything. He's an astronaut with a huge gun. Protoss are space aliens. Zerg are monsters. All tilesets are futuristic. Trying to even just create a suitable DOTA map for SC2 is hard because if you're not adhering to the Starcraft lore, it's going to seem like completely new lore ripped off from Starcraft because of the models and general feeling.
Or in a nutshell: What did Warcraft 3 DOTA feel like? Right, an epic battle between the ancients and the invading demonic force. Original heroes, Centaurs, huge zombies, skeleton kings, Trolls. What does Starcraft 2 SOTIS feel like? Right, an epic battle of several original Characters that look like futuristic space fighters like in Starcraft 2 lore.
Yeah, you've hit the nail on the head here. In a fantasy game you can create so many things and they still make sense because there is still room for imagination. And in StarCraft 2 that's simply not the case.
This is the problem though. In Warcraft, you had access to that kind of stuff from the get-go. You then had modelers and skinners alongside it to make some more interesting stuff. In Starcraft 2, you need to get seperate modelers in and make a heapload of stuff and generally put in tons more effort just to achieve the same starting position. It's possible, as demonstrated by maps like Spellstorm and Fields of Glory, but it's not as open to everywhere.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Hello everyone, I've followed the Warcraft 3 mapping scene for a long time, I've made maps (also for Sc1), never really published any but I was very familiar with JASS and the editor. I've made and watched died 3 map makings clan in Wc3:RoC and Wc3:TFT, plus I've tried the Galaxy editor for Sc2.
I've seen the evolution of map making taking place from Starcraft 1, Warcraft 3 and Starcraft 2 and I wanted to share my point on the actual philosphy of making maps in Starcraft 2 and why I think it 'fails'.
First of all, Starcraft 2 gives you A LOT of freedom for original ideas, units, triggers, scripts and such but that doesn't mean the quality of maps has increased, in fact, it has decreased, here's, what I personally think, is the problem:
Innovation Factor
The problem here is not the ideas, it's why they're developed for in the first place. Let's take a random FPS mod for exemple, sure it's possible to make it in Starcraft 2, sure it works and you can make a nice map with it, but does it mean it belongs in Starcraft 2? Is it because you can make those kind of games in the engine that you should? Let's take another exemple, BeJeweled, sure cool it works and its doable in Starcraft 2, but why play it over a random java BeJeweled game from the internet? There's no point in making it in Starcraft 2.
Spells and Effects
There was a trend in the late Warcraft 3 Maps to make spells effect very blown out of proportions and very beautiful, it worked at a certain limit because Warcraft 3 Effects in themselves were lacking, they were, for the most part, simple glows, particles and sprites. In Starcraft 2 however, a simple tank explosion has refraction, smoke particles, debrits, shaders etc. which are already fully complete. Maps like SotIS have spells that create 5 psychic storms in line then electrocutes the ground and stuff, it's too much, you don't see the units and the game anymore, it's not enjoyable.
Main Unit Importance
This is mostly for maps that focus on on hero units, in Warcraft 3, your units were big, they glowed and you knew it was your hero, (the glow even had team color!) but in Starcraft 2, if you decide to make a map where your hero is a zergling, you barely see the team color, you barely see your unit at all. Focus on uniqueness of your controlled unit and to whom it belongs. At least increase it's size by a good amount.
Terrain and Doodads
Okay, there's a lot of good sprites, lightning sets and terrain tiles you can use in Sc2, you can even paint your terrain, wow! There's a problem though, your map has to be playable, it's not a work of art that you want your players to look at, you want them to, by looking at your terrain, understand exactly where they can and they cannot go. Here's an exemple from SotIS vs Blizzard's DotA
SotIS
Blizzard DotA
The bigger problem is the lack of innovation, the higher % of maps is just remakes from older wc3 maps that were already played a lot. What's the reason to remake them?
One of the cause for me is that a good part of the editor is broken and we can't simply make new maps based on the innovations that were introduced on sc2.
I'm talking obviously of the controls lag that won't allow us to make any decent arcade/fps/whatever map that requires keyboard or mouse direct input.
@CrashLemon: Go
I disagree with you 99.9% on your terrain comment. In my opinion, beautiful terrain is one of the most important factors of immersion, which is one thing that will keep people playing for a long time. You seem to say that it doesn't matter how good the terrain looks so long as players know what to do. Using that logic, a terrain like this would be acceptable.
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
Curse Premium@CrashLemon: Go
I agree with nebuli except for one thing...
...I disagree with you 100%
Wc3 in my opinion never caught my attention because it's getting old. Give in to starcraft...you know it's best.
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
Curse Premium@Nebuli2: Go
Using his logic, maps should look more like Blizzard's maps in that they look nice but are also very clear.
What's wrong in the maps, eh?
I thought that people make maps because they like concepts/experience and they want to recreate similar experience with given tools, and then perhaps share it. For me, as player it's always interesting to see all the different kind of maps for all tastes populating b-net. I think it's cool to see much different stuff on b-net. I don't think that bountys Battlefield Egypt was published on EU, but I thought that it fitted nicely (judging from videos). About Bejeweled, have you looked at Blizzards Starjeweled? It's at the bottom of P2 on EU, and that means a huge success. 27k bookmarks, 401 h. played. I think it was worth it.
It's fun to play different games with same SC2 friend. It's cool to sometimes play something different. And people should continue to make different things so that we can all grow, inspire and learn from each other.
But I understand where you're coming from. "Different/unique" maps have hard time because most of population go to play custom maps for either specific interest map types (MOBA/TD/Some coop game) or to relax from ladder by playing either something to hone their melee skills or something that is based on melee (something with similar/familiar concepts). At least that's what I thought, might be wrong.
That's just bad visual design, some are aware of it, some are not, I think as we go forward more people begin to acknowledge this technique.
Above all else, terrain must be functional, but with tools given to us I will look down upon any map that doesn't make use of them (when it could). You can and you should combine art and functionality, no excuses (unless it's intentional, but then you better have a good reason).
WC3 was better because the maps were owned by you rather than Blizz, so you could break all the copyright laws you wanted (Well, not all of them, but I think you get what I mean) and they wouldn't ban your map.
I reread your post.
Uh, Map-making in SC2 fails? And the reasons are:
I suddenly have doubts about seriousity of this topic.
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
Curse PremiumThey did still own your map, they just didn't have a way to enforce it. Now they do.
WC3 was more alive with its hosting and custom-game-naming system. Editor was accessible to wider audience. Maps took less time and effort to make. More content to flow around, more people are inspired to make their own stuff, more iterations and refinement of ideas. And silly things expressed through immaturity(daamn you modern censorship!) were also good and fun. It felt like peoples game, rather that corporate machine.
Gonna have to disagree on terrain as well. I agree that in, for example SOTIS, it's terrible, but the hallmark of a good terrainer is he who can make a terrain that serves as eye-candy while not making the map undiscernable. The other things you've named also seem mostly pet peeves; some maps (like SOTIS) suffer from the disco spell effect syndrome, yeah, but that's not what's keeping map making in general down. I reckon your 'lack of innovation' is the problem - there isn't a lot more innovation possible within the editor, I think most possible genres got explored in WC3.
We should see some interesting single player stuff at the least though with the HOTS release - if they really allow us to link maps and make it easier for mapmakers to recreate the RPG parts from the real campaign, we're gonna see creativity going wild.
Well, IMO the thing that is shrewd about SC2 mapping is the popularity system. New players get spoonfed with the current top listers that they dont bother to look for more. In WC3, theres a heck a lot of map databases that people can simply browse, and decide which ones are good according to themselves; not because a certain map has been played over ** times.
There are maps out there that are very creative and original in concept; but they just lack the audience.
SOTIS terrain sure looks crap..... what I think good terrain would be something along the lines of Blizz maps, clear, concise, and not taxing performance-wise.
As for creativity, I agree with Mozared; most of that creativity was from WC3. SOTIS is as well, a Dota-like game; a concept that got popular in WC3. There isnt much to do in SC2 since WC3's strong mapping community has been what, innovating for 10 years? Other than FPS games that got trigger support and maps like Starjeweled that benefit from the quite free modding of the UI, I think most game concepts have been pretty much explored.
Haha poor SOTIS got bashed here.
But anyway, yeah it's weird how the creativity has been down since wc3. I think it's because wc3 gave you a lot more base assets to use. The Galaxy editor is more advanced; not every 'designer' can make a map anymore... but in wc3 they might have been able to a lot faster. But also, maybe it's related to the popularity list and seeding. (In WC3) If some random dude slaps together a map and decides to host it and 12 people play it... and one of those gets an idea and then does something similar but better... and then eventually a skilled mapper takes it on and then voila you have dark deeds or dota or w/e...
Well, with friends at LANs we still play WC3 (with our massive custom map folder), it's a lot of fun. We never play SC2 :/
But I'm all hopeful for the future... this is $*@*#@@#) Blizzard!
Well, since StarCraft 2 doesn't provide constant money income (like WoW) I don't think that Blizzard will pay that much attention to the custom map community. Of course they adress some issues and provide solutions, but I don't expect anything big coming soon. We will see what difference HotS will make.
I talked to many people regarding custom maps in StarCraft 2 and most said that something doesn't feel right, but they cannot identify it. I for one think that it's the setting. WarCraft 3 was a RTS, but with RPG Elements and felt much more like a game about fantasy. Whereas StarCraft 2 is just 'science fiction'; actually all maps have something to do with science fiction and so it's like playing in the same world over and over again. In this game you control a Marine, in the other one you build towers that are mechanical. All the same for me. Of course, in WarCraft 3 it was all fantasy, too. But it felt different. It is hard to explain.
Maybe it's just me and I lack ideas for a world of science fiction, but nothing amazes me when I play a map on battle.net anymore. And I'm not talking about the quality of the maps there.
ALOT of maps arent getting made or should I say published that could be great simply because of the 20 map restrictions...
But everyone should remember maps in SC1 Sucked, and Maps In WC3 RoC sucked, BW and TFT maps were much better... we arent in expansion stages yet, wait till the void... then you will see the best maps..
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
Curse Premium@Taintedwisp: Go
Good point. Just wait and continue doing what we're all doing and it'll be fine. Stop trolling. tyvm
What I think you're aiming at is the fact that Warcraft 3 is more generic. Knights in armour, knights on horses, brutal Orcs, undead zombies... run of the mill medieval fantasy stuff. A vampire hunters map works great in WC3 because Dreadlords can actually double as vampires. Footmen double as knights. Peasants double as citizens of a city. Shades double as ghosts. Etc. The Starcraft universe is a lot more original and defined: a marine is simply an astronaut with a huge gun. He doesn't double as anything. He's an astronaut with a huge gun. Protoss are space aliens. Zerg are monsters. All tilesets are futuristic. Trying to even just create a suitable DOTA map for SC2 is hard because if you're not adhering to the Starcraft lore, it's going to seem like completely new lore ripped off from Starcraft because of the models and general feeling.
Or in a nutshell: What did Warcraft 3 DOTA feel like? Right, an epic battle between the ancients and the invading demonic force. Original heroes, Centaurs, huge zombies, skeleton kings, Trolls. What does Starcraft 2 SOTIS feel like? Right, an epic battle of several original Characters that look like futuristic space fighters like in Starcraft 2 lore.
@Mozared: Go
Yeah, you've hit the nail on the head here. In a fantasy game you can create so many things and they still make sense because there is still room for imagination. And in StarCraft 2 that's simply not the case.
if you can import or make your own wc3 models into sc2 :) and maybe make a old age medieval terrain you will be all set :)
@zeropoints: Go
This is the problem though. In Warcraft, you had access to that kind of stuff from the get-go. You then had modelers and skinners alongside it to make some more interesting stuff. In Starcraft 2, you need to get seperate modelers in and make a heapload of stuff and generally put in tons more effort just to achieve the same starting position. It's possible, as demonstrated by maps like Spellstorm and Fields of Glory, but it's not as open to everywhere.