Or is it just me? I had a map 8 months ago become pretty popular so I might be biased. But lets look at the efforts Blizzard has done to push the Arcade forward, shall we?
Spawning gives non-HotS players and EVEN Starter players, the possibility to play what they previously couldn't. This has considerably increased the Arcade playerbase.
Global Play (and previously server linking of several regions like Americas and Oceania) opened the region barriers. This, without a doubt, increased the Arcade playerbase for Americas and Europe.
Open Games was reworked to have slow waiting lobbies go to the front page. This allows me to test my unpopular games if I waited long enough.
Map Linking gives us the tools to better the distribution and access of our games. (Too bad this website has done jack shit about it.)
StarTools is coming and although it has taken a long time for official tools to appear, it hasn't been abandoned and it will generate more models for mappers to use.
Blizzard is actively featuring maps in YouTube, giving the Arcade some publicity.
I may have forgotten some things, but I guess this is a Blizzard appreciation thread?
Also while I'm at a roll, I want to share some ideas that hopefully Blizzard will take route.
A software distributor and platform like Steam.
Encourages users to download StarCraft 2 as the "platform" or engine.
The free Arcade maps can be accessed with tokens (time based) for Starter players.
Blizzard allows developers to put their games in the market after a screening.
Games have their own forums and their details will be accessible on browsers (or the platform).
Features in Steam like maps they've played, currently playing, hours played, auto updates, etc.
Whatcha think?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Member since 2010. Made the -The Thing- [Revival] game. Nostalgic of the WC3 days.
In the Hive and here, you always complain. I agree that Blizz need to give some more commitment to Arcade but let's not forget the game is primarily an RTS competitive game. Also just generalizing, what else do you expect to be done about Arcade?
I really think the situation improved. At least a few things I didn't like were altered like the open games list was just mirroring the top played because top played maps were usually started more often making them always appearing on the top of the old list.
Changes I would like to see:
- If I would alter something, I would re-introduce bookmark icons to the open games list and add the map's icon to the list entry's tooltips (or even show the icons in a list just like the browsing pages do, if the user choses that... [-> adding a viewing option]).
Before I join the games I often want to see its icon because I might know the map's icon, but not the name.
- Also, adding a "recently updated" list (like "new", "top played", "top rated"), would be awesome, too. Sometimes I just want to see which maps were recently updated, so I might check them out.
Comments on their changes:
- The videos about the featured maps bring a lot of attention to other maps and makes changes to the maps people play. So, I think this is really great.
- Spawning feature is cool. But your suggestion for a way to allow free players to try everything on the arcade somehow would it make more awesome. Maybe they could just add free arcade weekends for people to explore everything there is and the marketing team would love having more different things they can present to non-SC2-owners to advertise the game.
In the Hive and here, you always complain. I agree that Blizz need to give some more commitment to Arcade but let's not forget the game is primarily an RTS competitive game. Also just generalizing, what else do you expect to be done about Arcade?
Oh boy...
The problem is a lack of common sense on the part of Blizzard. A purpose-design "competitive" game like StarCraft 2 (unlike League of Legends and most other titles) is that the average player is expected to watch, not so much play the game.
Take a look at forums in both EU and NA. You see the same thing over and over again. Players complaining that they cannot get good enough to enjoy the game. However this is not TV, most of this viewer base comes from the "players" of the game.
Its a downward spiral. And what numbers I have been able to come across shows that its been hurting StarCraft 2. Oh well, I haven't spent any of my own money since WoL. If they are unwilling to change melee gameplay to make it so the average user can succeed to a reasonable degree at it then the arcade is the only other option.
And what about the arcade. Even after the last 2+ years it is still inferior to bnet 1.0. Now "popularity" and "open lobbies" compete for users. Now Blizzard has been improving the situation, but look around you. Its obviously not enough. We have the same problems we had before that crippled the thing on it's own.
About that "Data Editor". Whether or not you have someone who can do the data work makes or breaks almost any project. The Data Editor has been about as effective at damaging the "arcade" as the popularity system has been.
Oh I had a good convo with one of the Blizzard developers about that. Both private and on the forums. The impression I got is that they think WC3's data editor wasn't all that great. Be that as it may be it was still worlds better than the StarCraft 2 data editor for the average user.
I mean for crying out loud. How else do you think I got away with as much as I did on the StarCraft 2 forums? I wasn't and still am not anything particularly special. Minus that bit about the Data Editor. If it weren't for my knowledge in that little detail I would have been banned long before hand.
Hence the point. Its easier to ask what isn't in need of dire improvement instead of what still needs to be improved. I mean there I was actually being taken somewhat seriously by people with CS degrees all because I knew how to use a "fancy" .xml editor. Can you possibly connect some dots?
Is the arcade recovering? Lets take a look at it from SC2mapster's point of view: Google Trends - SC2Mapster
I'm not sure I'm seeing the full thing but from my perspective I'm showing a slightly negative slope.
I'm still seeing a downward slope. Now this does no indicate so much of players that are looking for maps to play. This is more of an indication of how many mod makers, especially new mod makers are trying to make mods. Do you still think nothing needs to be improved? Or have you been spending too much time amongst the sheep?
And the next question you might ask "if you are going to complain so much, why did you come back?"
Mostly because I had a few ideas I wanted to try. Playing video games can get somewhat dull after a while, it can still be "fun" to make them. Unlike the last round, I'm not here to make a map/mod that I expect players to actually play. Thanks to some of those ideas tasks in the editor that used to take me days or weeks to do now take a few hours. Yay!
And if you don't like reading my posts, then don't! Just close your eyes when you get to them or hold up a piece of paper to your screen so you can filter my posts out. Then you can continue to live your e-life (eRL) in eternal cyber-bliss.
I was having the conversation today. I'ts interesting how when my map got spotlighted (card shuffle) by Blizzard almost 2 years ago it recieved 103 comments!!
When Trial of Zeal got spotlighted a week or so ago, it recieved just 3 comments....
My map was pretty crap, it just shows how even just after HOTS release, people have completely lost interest in the SC2 Arcade.
I strongly agree with your point about the Data Editor. It's a massive fail and it just scares away potential mappers. If I could use WC3's Data Editor for SC2, I would. In terms of mapping approachability, WC3 beats SC2 by a long shot.
Custom games were mostly killed by the popularity system right from the get go. Things have improved a bit, but still most people join games through bookmarks or the most played in their favorite genre. These features while convient kill the custom games community becuase it makes it very difficult for new games to become popular as no one sees them because most do not look at the scrolling list of games wereas people did in wc3 becuase they were forced to. I think the unlikely hood of a persons game being played due to these things turned alot of potential map makers off right off the bat. Even in my case, i had learned abit about the map editor in WC3, came to SC2 and saw the popularity system and i thought making a map would be pointless so i didnt for awhile. Then i eventually just decided to anyways and it ended up doing pretty well at best ranked #2 most played on NA for a short period of time.
And to think because of the popularity system i almost wasn't even going to attempt to make a map, im sure many other potential map makers made that choice.Ya the data editor is harder and scares people away, but i wouldnt think it would scare anyone away anyone who actually had the ability or the needed will and determination needed to complete a good map. There was alot of excitement in reguards to custom games approaching relase, the popularity system wiped out a huge portion of it very quickly, and custom games in SC2 will never recover from it. Its a shame too custom games were my favorite part of wc3 and they kept wc3 going as a popular game for years.
Well, since you are more into Arcade than me, I can see your points about the Arcade and the editor. I am not hanging around Arcade that much to know about the problems because I am either through the Campaign or melee (though I haven't done the latter for ages, sadly), or doing offline projects and things with the Editor which from time to time as little as I can, share. So I am not arguing about the Arcade, it seems fine to me but I don't hang around it to know, so I am not arguing there, I was just curious to know what else is wrong.
Personally, with the Data Editor - I dislike the tons of options that when you click one tab, even a fast PC takes seconds to load all the information, Data tabs get automatically reordered when you click between them too fast, that having to use Site Operations - as some say better learn to EDIT a 3D Model than waste time on Site Ops... 4 Actors to make 1 Decal 3D Model appear on 2 places on a Decal-less model of a Unit, that's what I had to do..
Some important triggers are still missing - spinning, ordering a unit to use items, lots of other things that require workarounds, same for the Data stuff - some workarounds are ridiculous.
But I disagree about the melee because that's my field, like war3 I've been either in 1vs1 melee or offline with the editor for all the years. And the game is enough friendly for it, it's easier than BW, they created some easier command cart which I eeewed when I saw, and the rest is simply you can either play it or not... No you do not have to be a pro player to be good or reach any of the high leagues.. Competitive game makes the fun - so was with Dota, with war3, with BW, that's the interesting - if someone feels STRESSED - they created Unranked Ladder, if they still get stressed - well don't play melee then! . .. They can't ruin the fun of all who do only because someone Cannot...
@Hookah604: Go I don't like to blame the player base. They are the end consumers after all, they're the ones to be pleased in a sense. It is easy to to say "dem stupid players only play (insert a map you hate here) and won't play well-made maps!". I know, I've done it before many times, but players are players, if they don't like the game, they move on to another game. If the arcade isn't able to hold a big player base one could say its Blizzard's fault. It could even be said its our fault as well, but considering we create maps for free and that we aren't professional game developers, and that previous games like WC3 managed to do what SC2 can't, I think we can assume we have no part in it.
@SoulFilcher: Go
Yeah we may have part in it.
But I dont see why should be taboo to talk about player base. W3 before the release of SC2 had much better player base, than arcade currently has. Probably the main reason for that, that W3 was an old game and its playerbase aged too...
Aye, I agree. Blaming anyone 3 years later (oh hey, it's wols anniversary this month) is meh. Mapping environment depends on blizz, and blizz lobotomized most of player base with their UI right from the start by taking away choice and social interaction from custom maps. If you want a map that is constantly played - read the trends and make it happen. Environment is not going to change cause blizzard will not let go of what they've done. I don't think they can now either way.
Still, it's not all gloom and doom. Some niche maps still exist, still played. And it looks like blizz haven't forgotten about the arcade either (july 4th map unlock). Who knows what the future brings. It feels better than it was, but I don't think it'll ever be good enough. =D
I never use the spotlight page to find new maps, as I generally do not try new maps in the first place.
It's too much of a hassle to risk time on a new map, waiting in lobby if its not popular, waiting possibly forever at the loading screen, then possibly dropping for a game that may not even be worth playing. In SC1, it was just click join-start and I was in-game within 20 seconds in a map that had a very low learning curve because the engine didn't enable complicated maps.
So I get tired of playing the same maps over and over, and I have associated bad feelings with trying out new maps, which is why I generally don't get on the Arcade much and I map instead.
I don't believe the spotlight page is a problem. It's just summarizing the browse page for us. The browse page is just information. What's wrong with information?
So while the Arcade has improved in terms of wasted time (being able to preview maps) it just, in my eyes, won't be a good system until I can get in any map with an incredibly low chance of dropping and very short loading screens. Blizzard being able to make that a reality is doubtful.
So in my opinion, the Arcade itself is okay, even good, there's just that one unfixable flaw.
TL;DR: Overall system too unfriendly to trying out new maps.
I gained 3000 more ratings for my game shortly after the HotS release, so uhh... Well, yeah, it did slow down, but naturally?
I was referring to the blizzard site, the custom map section. When a map is spotlighted it goes ignored.
Blizzard would be much better spotlighting basic practical games with good gameplay instead of 'flashy ui'. The result is sadly players play 1 game go oh wow cool and never play it again after.
I will quote a member's post from another site (hiveworkshop), what do you think? I see the Arcade being as it is due to lack of interesting things and people not wanting to come because of that:
Q:
Quote:
So how is the situation now? Are there still many glaring issues?
What are the biggest problems at the moment?
A:
Quote:
Not enough map makers who want to make decent maps. Only kids who like messing around with the editor.
Maybe this is the problem? Personally I see cool terrains, cool maps, idk how long the fun lasts when playing them.
Quote:
There are a few exceptions. "Dia blo" is the perfect example. It shows exactly what SC2 can do.
Or maybe the problem is that once you repulse everybody with the lameness of Bnet 2.0 when WoL started, it's hard to get people back and they fear to switch to SC2.
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Curse PremiumOr is it just me? I had a map 8 months ago become pretty popular so I might be biased. But lets look at the efforts Blizzard has done to push the Arcade forward, shall we?
I may have forgotten some things, but I guess this is a Blizzard appreciation thread?
Also while I'm at a roll, I want to share some ideas that hopefully Blizzard will take route.
Whatcha think?
Member since 2010. Made the -The Thing- [Revival] game. Nostalgic of the WC3 days.
Think all my feelings about it can be summed up in the sentence "Cool, now if only I still mapped..."
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Curse Premium@Mozared: Go
Hand me your moderator powers. Trust me.
Member since 2010. Made the -The Thing- [Revival] game. Nostalgic of the WC3 days.
I don't think there is anything remotely solid yet. We've seen temporary up's and downs before.
The core problem is Blizzard's lack of solid commitment. So far they refuse to do anything that will take any resources away from their Esports.
@FockeWulf: Go
In the Hive and here, you always complain. I agree that Blizz need to give some more commitment to Arcade but let's not forget the game is primarily an RTS competitive game. Also just generalizing, what else do you expect to be done about Arcade?
I really think the situation improved. At least a few things I didn't like were altered like the open games list was just mirroring the top played because top played maps were usually started more often making them always appearing on the top of the old list.
Changes I would like to see:
- If I would alter something, I would re-introduce bookmark icons to the open games list and add the map's icon to the list entry's tooltips (or even show the icons in a list just like the browsing pages do, if the user choses that... [-> adding a viewing option]).
Before I join the games I often want to see its icon because I might know the map's icon, but not the name.
- Also, adding a "recently updated" list (like "new", "top played", "top rated"), would be awesome, too. Sometimes I just want to see which maps were recently updated, so I might check them out.
Comments on their changes:
- The videos about the featured maps bring a lot of attention to other maps and makes changes to the maps people play. So, I think this is really great.
- Spawning feature is cool. But your suggestion for a way to allow free players to try everything on the arcade somehow would it make more awesome. Maybe they could just add free arcade weekends for people to explore everything there is and the marketing team would love having more different things they can present to non-SC2-owners to advertise the game.
Oh boy...
The problem is a lack of common sense on the part of Blizzard. A purpose-design "competitive" game like StarCraft 2 (unlike League of Legends and most other titles) is that the average player is expected to watch, not so much play the game.
Take a look at forums in both EU and NA. You see the same thing over and over again. Players complaining that they cannot get good enough to enjoy the game. However this is not TV, most of this viewer base comes from the "players" of the game.
Its a downward spiral. And what numbers I have been able to come across shows that its been hurting StarCraft 2. Oh well, I haven't spent any of my own money since WoL. If they are unwilling to change melee gameplay to make it so the average user can succeed to a reasonable degree at it then the arcade is the only other option.
And what about the arcade. Even after the last 2+ years it is still inferior to bnet 1.0. Now "popularity" and "open lobbies" compete for users. Now Blizzard has been improving the situation, but look around you. Its obviously not enough. We have the same problems we had before that crippled the thing on it's own.
About that "Data Editor". Whether or not you have someone who can do the data work makes or breaks almost any project. The Data Editor has been about as effective at damaging the "arcade" as the popularity system has been.
Oh I had a good convo with one of the Blizzard developers about that. Both private and on the forums. The impression I got is that they think WC3's data editor wasn't all that great. Be that as it may be it was still worlds better than the StarCraft 2 data editor for the average user.
I mean for crying out loud. How else do you think I got away with as much as I did on the StarCraft 2 forums? I wasn't and still am not anything particularly special. Minus that bit about the Data Editor. If it weren't for my knowledge in that little detail I would have been banned long before hand.
Hence the point. Its easier to ask what isn't in need of dire improvement instead of what still needs to be improved. I mean there I was actually being taken somewhat seriously by people with CS degrees all because I knew how to use a "fancy" .xml editor. Can you possibly connect some dots?
Is the arcade recovering? Lets take a look at it from SC2mapster's point of view: Google Trends - SC2Mapster
I'm not sure I'm seeing the full thing but from my perspective I'm showing a slightly negative slope.
And what bout the other one? Google Trends - HiveWorkShop
I'm still seeing a downward slope. Now this does no indicate so much of players that are looking for maps to play. This is more of an indication of how many mod makers, especially new mod makers are trying to make mods. Do you still think nothing needs to be improved? Or have you been spending too much time amongst the sheep?
And the next question you might ask "if you are going to complain so much, why did you come back?" Mostly because I had a few ideas I wanted to try. Playing video games can get somewhat dull after a while, it can still be "fun" to make them. Unlike the last round, I'm not here to make a map/mod that I expect players to actually play. Thanks to some of those ideas tasks in the editor that used to take me days or weeks to do now take a few hours. Yay!
And if you don't like reading my posts, then don't! Just close your eyes when you get to them or hold up a piece of paper to your screen so you can filter my posts out. Then you can continue to live your e-life (eRL) in eternal cyber-bliss.
I was having the conversation today. I'ts interesting how when my map got spotlighted (card shuffle) by Blizzard almost 2 years ago it recieved 103 comments!!
When Trial of Zeal got spotlighted a week or so ago, it recieved just 3 comments....
My map was pretty crap, it just shows how even just after HOTS release, people have completely lost interest in the SC2 Arcade.
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Curse Premium@FockeWulf: Go
I strongly agree with your point about the Data Editor. It's a massive fail and it just scares away potential mappers. If I could use WC3's Data Editor for SC2, I would. In terms of mapping approachability, WC3 beats SC2 by a long shot.
@Fullachain: Go
I gained 3000 more ratings for my game shortly after the HotS release, so uhh... Well, yeah, it did slow down, but naturally?
Member since 2010. Made the -The Thing- [Revival] game. Nostalgic of the WC3 days.
Custom games were mostly killed by the popularity system right from the get go. Things have improved a bit, but still most people join games through bookmarks or the most played in their favorite genre. These features while convient kill the custom games community becuase it makes it very difficult for new games to become popular as no one sees them because most do not look at the scrolling list of games wereas people did in wc3 becuase they were forced to. I think the unlikely hood of a persons game being played due to these things turned alot of potential map makers off right off the bat. Even in my case, i had learned abit about the map editor in WC3, came to SC2 and saw the popularity system and i thought making a map would be pointless so i didnt for awhile. Then i eventually just decided to anyways and it ended up doing pretty well at best ranked #2 most played on NA for a short period of time.
And to think because of the popularity system i almost wasn't even going to attempt to make a map, im sure many other potential map makers made that choice.Ya the data editor is harder and scares people away, but i wouldnt think it would scare anyone away anyone who actually had the ability or the needed will and determination needed to complete a good map. There was alot of excitement in reguards to custom games approaching relase, the popularity system wiped out a huge portion of it very quickly, and custom games in SC2 will never recover from it. Its a shame too custom games were my favorite part of wc3 and they kept wc3 going as a popular game for years.
GO GO FOCKEWULF
@FockeWulf: Go
Well, since you are more into Arcade than me, I can see your points about the Arcade and the editor. I am not hanging around Arcade that much to know about the problems because I am either through the Campaign or melee (though I haven't done the latter for ages, sadly), or doing offline projects and things with the Editor which from time to time as little as I can, share. So I am not arguing about the Arcade, it seems fine to me but I don't hang around it to know, so I am not arguing there, I was just curious to know what else is wrong.
Personally, with the Data Editor - I dislike the tons of options that when you click one tab, even a fast PC takes seconds to load all the information, Data tabs get automatically reordered when you click between them too fast, that having to use Site Operations - as some say better learn to EDIT a 3D Model than waste time on Site Ops... 4 Actors to make 1 Decal 3D Model appear on 2 places on a Decal-less model of a Unit, that's what I had to do..
Some important triggers are still missing - spinning, ordering a unit to use items, lots of other things that require workarounds, same for the Data stuff - some workarounds are ridiculous.
But I disagree about the melee because that's my field, like war3 I've been either in 1vs1 melee or offline with the editor for all the years. And the game is enough friendly for it, it's easier than BW, they created some easier command cart which I eeewed when I saw, and the rest is simply you can either play it or not... No you do not have to be a pro player to be good or reach any of the high leagues.. Competitive game makes the fun - so was with Dota, with war3, with BW, that's the interesting - if someone feels STRESSED - they created Unranked Ladder, if they still get stressed - well don't play melee then! . .. They can't ruin the fun of all who do only because someone Cannot...
There is nothing wrong with the editor, the problem is the arcade and the sc2 player base....
(and of course blizzard which is stubborned)
The Arcade has gained momentum and you can basically get every map played now if you want to play it.
@Hookah604: Go I don't like to blame the player base. They are the end consumers after all, they're the ones to be pleased in a sense. It is easy to to say "dem stupid players only play (insert a map you hate here) and won't play well-made maps!". I know, I've done it before many times, but players are players, if they don't like the game, they move on to another game. If the arcade isn't able to hold a big player base one could say its Blizzard's fault. It could even be said its our fault as well, but considering we create maps for free and that we aren't professional game developers, and that previous games like WC3 managed to do what SC2 can't, I think we can assume we have no part in it.
@SoulFilcher: Go Yeah we may have part in it.
But I dont see why should be taboo to talk about player base. W3 before the release of SC2 had much better player base, than arcade currently has. Probably the main reason for that, that W3 was an old game and its playerbase aged too...
@SoulFilcher: Go
Aye, I agree. Blaming anyone 3 years later (oh hey, it's wols anniversary this month) is meh. Mapping environment depends on blizz, and blizz lobotomized most of player base with their UI right from the start by taking away choice and social interaction from custom maps. If you want a map that is constantly played - read the trends and make it happen. Environment is not going to change cause blizzard will not let go of what they've done. I don't think they can now either way.
Still, it's not all gloom and doom. Some niche maps still exist, still played. And it looks like blizz haven't forgotten about the arcade either (july 4th map unlock). Who knows what the future brings. It feels better than it was, but I don't think it'll ever be good enough. =D
I never use the spotlight page to find new maps, as I generally do not try new maps in the first place.
It's too much of a hassle to risk time on a new map, waiting in lobby if its not popular, waiting possibly forever at the loading screen, then possibly dropping for a game that may not even be worth playing. In SC1, it was just click join-start and I was in-game within 20 seconds in a map that had a very low learning curve because the engine didn't enable complicated maps.
So I get tired of playing the same maps over and over, and I have associated bad feelings with trying out new maps, which is why I generally don't get on the Arcade much and I map instead.
I don't believe the spotlight page is a problem. It's just summarizing the browse page for us. The browse page is just information. What's wrong with information?
So while the Arcade has improved in terms of wasted time (being able to preview maps) it just, in my eyes, won't be a good system until I can get in any map with an incredibly low chance of dropping and very short loading screens. Blizzard being able to make that a reality is doubtful.
So in my opinion, the Arcade itself is okay, even good, there's just that one unfixable flaw.
TL;DR: Overall system too unfriendly to trying out new maps.
I was referring to the blizzard site, the custom map section. When a map is spotlighted it goes ignored.
Blizzard would be much better spotlighting basic practical games with good gameplay instead of 'flashy ui'. The result is sadly players play 1 game go oh wow cool and never play it again after.
I will quote a member's post from another site (hiveworkshop), what do you think? I see the Arcade being as it is due to lack of interesting things and people not wanting to come because of that:
Q:
A:
Maybe this is the problem? Personally I see cool terrains, cool maps, idk how long the fun lasts when playing them.
Or maybe the problem is that once you repulse everybody with the lameness of Bnet 2.0 when WoL started, it's hard to get people back and they fear to switch to SC2.