If it's so sub-par, then why has it received a virtually unparalleled (among RTS) reception worldwide? Why is it *the* RTS of e-sports?
Map-making isn't the only facet of SC2. Am I fully satisfied with things as they are? Of course not. Does that make it a "sub-par product"? Absolutely not.
The campaign is awesome. By far the best RTS campaign ever made IMO. The editor, for all its flaws, is incredibly powerful. The fact that people even compare it to tools like UDK (Which costs money if you use it on for-profit projects) is pretty impressive, given that it's essentially an add-on to a game that's well worth the $60 *just* for the campaign and multiplayer.
Just because the part of the package that's most important to us as mappers has substantial flaws doesn't mean the game itself is junk. If you're going to criticize, at least QQ about something legitimate (like the lack of proper support for alternate game modes within a single map). By all means let the constructive criticism fly, but mud-slinging isn't going to win you any sympathy from me.
I don't WANT your sympathy, I'm declaring my biased opinion as you are. The difference being I'm not taking a personal issue with someone because they like the game the way it is. The campaign was alright, albeit not in itself worth sixty dollars. Maybe thirty or forty.
The multiplayer just sucks, especially in comparison to their hype and the original Starcraft and Warcraft III. The Editor is hardly considered an addon; without it they probably wouldn't have made half their sales. And you can compare it to UDK all you want; do you think Blizzard isn't going to charge similar royalties for their Marketplace sales? Although I didn't do that, did I?
Okay but the fact is that SC2 is really not that great of a game overall. It has very low worldly appeal outside of Korea. It has a ridiculous learning curve that makes it impossible for non-diehard fans to enjoy playing the game. Watching it isn't really that exciting either.
Not that I think LoL is fun to watch either.
Also, @OP:
TL;DR, but if you want to make real games, learn to make a game, stop fucking around with the limited editor, because your dream game with all these features and whatnots and wahoos isn't possible on this architecture. All custom mapping is good for are small mini-games and shit that doesn't require persistence.
Back on topic. I'm down to help. This is a positive step in the right direction. If you're fighting this, you're swimming against the current. The times have indeed changed. The systems have become more powerful, yet more complex. We must come together as a collective and learn from one another.
If you can't change the system, you adapt and overcome.
Talk to you more on Skype, Prozaic. Also, anyone interested in helping out, shoot Prozaic or myself a message via mapster with your Skype information and desired contribution role. (Prozaic might not find your message because he has over 500 unread in his inbox - not joking).
Or we don't adapt, and say fuck you Blizzard. Then they change to what they should be doing, and not assuming that everyone's happy with the shit they release. And there isn't anything to learn. For most of us, the editor isn't that big of a deal. It's the stupid way they handle things and the lack of proper tools to use the editor (like, say, a model converter? Or at the very least some file formats that aren't totally fucked up so we can figure out how to convert the models and materials ourselves?).
And if you think that they would have had remotely the same kind of sales, then you clearly know absolutely nothing about how the world works. I wouldn't have bought it without it, the campaign certainly wasn't worth it, and had I known that they were going to completely disregard the custom mapping scene as they are (especially after their mass amounts of advertisements specifically about their editor... you do realize they did that so that mappers would buy it right, or is that getting too complicated with more than one kind of target audience?), I definitely wouldn't have bought it. Nor would many other people, especially not at full price.
The SC2 editor is a baby at the moment - a very powerful baby with flaws. When HoTS is released it will be a teenager. When LotV is released it will be a man. Start raising your baby, or move on to another development kit.
The multiplayer just sucks, especially in comparison to their hype and the original Starcraft and Warcraft III. The Editor is hardly considered an addon; without it they probably wouldn't have made half their sales. And you can compare it to UDK all you want; do you think Blizzard isn't going to charge similar royalties for their Marketplace sales? Although I didn't do that, did I?
Sc2 has one of the most powerful game editors that are shipped for free, especially considering it's ease to use.
Everybody can pick it up quickly and do something with it. Sure, some things are harder to learn, but overall Sc2 is a good tool for casuals.
Okay but the fact is that SC2 is really not that great of a game overall. It has very low worldly appeal outside of Korea. It has a ridiculous learning curve that makes it impossible for non-diehard fans to enjoy playing the game. Watching it isn't really that exciting either.
I can only speak for myself, but when I saw the finals of TSL3 or NASL I was on the edge of my seat.
For me those were the most exciting eSport matches I've ever seen.
Okay but the fact is that SC2 is really not that great of a game overall. It has very low worldly appeal outside of Korea.
That is extremely untrue, sc2 exploded outside of SK with tons of tournaments and huge viewer numbers. I have no idea how you come to say this.
It is already more accepted outside of Korea than in Korea, where its predecessor still has the larger fanbase. But with the deal Bliz and Kespa negotiated that is about to change.
Again, you couldn't be more wrong, SC2 is taking over in the west. Tune in to MLG, the starcraft fans double the number of the console game fans easily.
I've played WoW for 5 years. I've seen how people will blame anyone but
themselves. I feel that this applies to mapping, often maps aren't on
page 1 because they're not very good, not due to the popularity system.
Granted there are exceptions, but few and far between.
I was just going to write exactly this complete with "I play WoW" and everything. Eiviyn is a genius.
Sorry, but as someone who takes a more passive role in this community, I think this is the syndrome people here are suffering from. You've become too "popularity" hungry. What the hell? When you're creating a map, you should be putting learning and the other people in the community as a top priority. Just make your damn map, make it as good as you can and leave it there. So what if your map is not popular? After all, there's only a limit to the number of maps that can be displayed on page 1. Take something you've learned away from it AND offer it to the community as another avenue for learning.
There are some people here, some even prominent, that have been posting since SC2Mapster.com started, and all you've posted since then was any of the following two topics:
"Hey, try my newest map!" and "Oh look, my newest map isn't popular. Popularity system suck!"
Seriously, is this the community effort you want? There's so many threads here, many with genuine questions, that remain unanswered. Why? Everyone's too busy trying to get popular.
In the event they ever get around to releasing the tools necessary to appropriately create custom maps, then they can get some amount of praise. Until then I fail to see why they should be defended at all.
How long has it been since SCII was first started in development? Then they can't even finish all of it in their essentially unlimited time frame so release a sub-par product that barely works and isn't even the complete game, and the subsequent expansions for SCII will probably be at the same price with minor perks that should have already been included that probably won't work properly until the last game is released.
In order to claim that SC2 is sub-par you must first demonstrate that other games are better than it. So here's my challenge to you:
Name 5 games that contain a game editor or toolkit that include all of the games assets. This included program must ALSO be able to fully customize the content intended for the game AND for other genres. That means if the program is from an RPG game but can only make RPG mods (can't be adapted to RTS/TBS/FPS etc.) then clearly it is not a superior example.
We're comparing apples to apples here, so prove that SC2 is the sub-par waste of time you believe it to be.
TL;DR, but if you want to make real games, learn to make a game, stop fucking around with the limited editor, because your dream game with all these features and whatnots and wahoos isn't possible on this architecture. All custom mapping is good for are small mini-games and shit that doesn't require persistence.
That is your opinion, not mine. I disagree with you on every point and find that the SC2 editor is far more suited to those new to modding (which I obviously am) than a full SDK. I would much rather learn modding on this editor and later ADD SDKs to my repertoire than abandon this editor and start over.
Seriously, is this the community effort you want? There's so many threads here, many with genuine questions, that remain unanswered. Why? Everyone's too busy trying to get popular.
IMHO the reason there are so many threads here with unanswered questions is the same reason that many maps do not get the play time they deserve; the Starcraft2 community in general sometimes has problems using the search function.
It has been my experience in work as well as in my hobby here that no matter how much you post, prod and email about something, people will not find it unless it's in front of their face, or they need it.
That being said, I think the community playing each other's maps and giving feedback can only do 2 things. Increase the hours played on those maps and make them better through direct feedback. When can we get this started?
What the f...
Guys aren't you talking now about completely different topics?
I know that the whole topic was pointless but just to give something to the original idea of the thread:
Don't create more tutorials about the editor (people already know how to create maps) there are enough tutorials already. Instead create tutorials on how to advertise a map on the internet.
League of Legends, 200,000 worldwide viewers. Prize Pool: $100,000
Yah man, SC2 is totally the e-sport of e-sports.
Just saw this one.
You realize that SC was divided into I believe more than 5 streams, while Riot implemented the stream into the LoL launcher so that every player counted as an viewer?
But I guess if you WANT to see SC2 as unsuccessful you take what you get.
That is extremely untrue, sc2 exploded outside of SK with tons of tournaments and huge viewer numbers. I have no idea how you come to say this.
It is already more accepted outside of Korea than in Korea, where its predecessor still has the larger fanbase. But with the deal Bliz and Kespa negotiated that is about to change.
Again, you couldn't be more wrong, SC2 is taking over in the west. Tune in to MLG, the starcraft fans double the number of the console game fans easily.
Your average world tournament has how many viewers? Now check out a popular LoL player's stream on a nightly basis and they get at least twice that, PER streamer.
SC2 is hardly a blip on the radar anymore, really. I mean it's got some prescence, but it really isn't making as big of a splash as it needs to be to make e-sports accepted in the states, anyway.
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@Varine: Go
If it's so sub-par, then why has it received a virtually unparalleled (among RTS) reception worldwide? Why is it *the* RTS of e-sports?
Map-making isn't the only facet of SC2. Am I fully satisfied with things as they are? Of course not. Does that make it a "sub-par product"? Absolutely not.
The campaign is awesome. By far the best RTS campaign ever made IMO. The editor, for all its flaws, is incredibly powerful. The fact that people even compare it to tools like UDK (Which costs money if you use it on for-profit projects) is pretty impressive, given that it's essentially an add-on to a game that's well worth the $60 *just* for the campaign and multiplayer.
Just because the part of the package that's most important to us as mappers has substantial flaws doesn't mean the game itself is junk. If you're going to criticize, at least QQ about something legitimate (like the lack of proper support for alternate game modes within a single map). By all means let the constructive criticism fly, but mud-slinging isn't going to win you any sympathy from me.
Dreamhack.
SC2, 16,000 viewers worldwide. Prize pool: $11k euro.
League of Legends, 200,000 worldwide viewers. Prize Pool: $100,000
Yah man, SC2 is totally the e-sport of e-sports.
@Mephs: Go
Dammit Mephs, I specifically said RTS. LoL is not an RTS :P
LoL is an awesome game, though =D
@Mephs: Go
Oh, so smug of you to compare a privately funded tournament with one that had it's 100,000$ prize pool donated by the developers. Too bad Starcraft doesn't have something like that. It's also a shame that SC2 has so little tournaments...
I don't WANT your sympathy, I'm declaring my biased opinion as you are. The difference being I'm not taking a personal issue with someone because they like the game the way it is. The campaign was alright, albeit not in itself worth sixty dollars. Maybe thirty or forty.
The multiplayer just sucks, especially in comparison to their hype and the original Starcraft and Warcraft III. The Editor is hardly considered an addon; without it they probably wouldn't have made half their sales. And you can compare it to UDK all you want; do you think Blizzard isn't going to charge similar royalties for their Marketplace sales? Although I didn't do that, did I?
Okay but the fact is that SC2 is really not that great of a game overall. It has very low worldly appeal outside of Korea. It has a ridiculous learning curve that makes it impossible for non-diehard fans to enjoy playing the game. Watching it isn't really that exciting either.
Not that I think LoL is fun to watch either.
Also, @OP:
TL;DR, but if you want to make real games, learn to make a game, stop fucking around with the limited editor, because your dream game with all these features and whatnots and wahoos isn't possible on this architecture. All custom mapping is good for are small mini-games and shit that doesn't require persistence.
@Mephs: Go
Back on topic. I'm down to help. This is a positive step in the right direction. If you're fighting this, you're swimming against the current. The times have indeed changed. The systems have become more powerful, yet more complex. We must come together as a collective and learn from one another.
If you can't change the system, you adapt and overcome.
Talk to you more on Skype, Prozaic. Also, anyone interested in helping out, shoot Prozaic or myself a message via mapster with your Skype information and desired contribution role. (Prozaic might not find your message because he has over 500 unread in his inbox - not joking).
Subjective and widely-contradicted opinions about the quality of multiplayer aside...
You don't seriously believe that, do you? I'm not even sure what to say...
Or we don't adapt, and say fuck you Blizzard. Then they change to what they should be doing, and not assuming that everyone's happy with the shit they release. And there isn't anything to learn. For most of us, the editor isn't that big of a deal. It's the stupid way they handle things and the lack of proper tools to use the editor (like, say, a model converter? Or at the very least some file formats that aren't totally fucked up so we can figure out how to convert the models and materials ourselves?).
And if you think that they would have had remotely the same kind of sales, then you clearly know absolutely nothing about how the world works. I wouldn't have bought it without it, the campaign certainly wasn't worth it, and had I known that they were going to completely disregard the custom mapping scene as they are (especially after their mass amounts of advertisements specifically about their editor... you do realize they did that so that mappers would buy it right, or is that getting too complicated with more than one kind of target audience?), I definitely wouldn't have bought it. Nor would many other people, especially not at full price.
The SC2 editor is a baby at the moment - a very powerful baby with flaws. When HoTS is released it will be a teenager. When LotV is released it will be a man. Start raising your baby, or move on to another development kit.
Patience is a virtue.
Sc2 has one of the most powerful game editors that are shipped for free, especially considering it's ease to use. Everybody can pick it up quickly and do something with it. Sure, some things are harder to learn, but overall Sc2 is a good tool for casuals.
I can only speak for myself, but when I saw the finals of TSL3 or NASL I was on the edge of my seat. For me those were the most exciting eSport matches I've ever seen.
I love watching SC2 games. It can be more exciting than playing sometimes, especially when they are doing a bunch of crazy stuff that I can't.
That is extremely untrue, sc2 exploded outside of SK with tons of tournaments and huge viewer numbers. I have no idea how you come to say this.
It is already more accepted outside of Korea than in Korea, where its predecessor still has the larger fanbase. But with the deal Bliz and Kespa negotiated that is about to change.
Again, you couldn't be more wrong, SC2 is taking over in the west. Tune in to MLG, the starcraft fans double the number of the console game fans easily.
I was just going to write exactly this complete with "I play WoW" and everything. Eiviyn is a genius.
Sorry, but as someone who takes a more passive role in this community, I think this is the syndrome people here are suffering from. You've become too "popularity" hungry. What the hell? When you're creating a map, you should be putting learning and the other people in the community as a top priority. Just make your damn map, make it as good as you can and leave it there. So what if your map is not popular? After all, there's only a limit to the number of maps that can be displayed on page 1. Take something you've learned away from it AND offer it to the community as another avenue for learning.
There are some people here, some even prominent, that have been posting since SC2Mapster.com started, and all you've posted since then was any of the following two topics: "Hey, try my newest map!" and "Oh look, my newest map isn't popular. Popularity system suck!"
Seriously, is this the community effort you want? There's so many threads here, many with genuine questions, that remain unanswered. Why? Everyone's too busy trying to get popular.
In order to claim that SC2 is sub-par you must first demonstrate that other games are better than it. So here's my challenge to you: Name 5 games that contain a game editor or toolkit that include all of the games assets. This included program must ALSO be able to fully customize the content intended for the game AND for other genres. That means if the program is from an RPG game but can only make RPG mods (can't be adapted to RTS/TBS/FPS etc.) then clearly it is not a superior example.
We're comparing apples to apples here, so prove that SC2 is the sub-par waste of time you believe it to be.
That is your opinion, not mine. I disagree with you on every point and find that the SC2 editor is far more suited to those new to modding (which I obviously am) than a full SDK. I would much rather learn modding on this editor and later ADD SDKs to my repertoire than abandon this editor and start over.
IMHO the reason there are so many threads here with unanswered questions is the same reason that many maps do not get the play time they deserve; the Starcraft2 community in general sometimes has problems using the search function.
It has been my experience in work as well as in my hobby here that no matter how much you post, prod and email about something, people will not find it unless it's in front of their face, or they need it.
That being said, I think the community playing each other's maps and giving feedback can only do 2 things. Increase the hours played on those maps and make them better through direct feedback. When can we get this started?
It's already being started. I'm organizing the groups behind the scenes as we flame ;P
What the f...
Guys aren't you talking now about completely different topics?
I know that the whole topic was pointless but just to give something to the original idea of the thread:
Don't create more tutorials about the editor (people already know how to create maps) there are enough tutorials already.
Instead create tutorials on how to advertise a map on the internet.
Just saw this one.
You realize that SC was divided into I believe more than 5 streams, while Riot implemented the stream into the LoL launcher so that every player counted as an viewer?
But I guess if you WANT to see SC2 as unsuccessful you take what you get.
Your average world tournament has how many viewers? Now check out a popular LoL player's stream on a nightly basis and they get at least twice that, PER streamer.
SC2 is hardly a blip on the radar anymore, really. I mean it's got some prescence, but it really isn't making as big of a splash as it needs to be to make e-sports accepted in the states, anyway.