Random is the only way to play to "get" the whole game. well that's just what my opinion is...
I'm sorry for the aggressive titles, but hey, were on a forum...
I just wanted to know about stuff on the random issue, and you gals and guys are so obliging and well mannered, so here I go with my first batch of questions:
1/ What's the proportion of randoms overall, I'm sure the most competitive players do not choose it, but what of "most" of the players?
2/ Is there an equivalent in mods ...?
3/ What is the "rule" about changing races in tourneys? If any?
4/Is playing random not the only way to get "extra" showmanship or skill out of the players, guaranteeing "balance" nonsense?
feel free to add other random related issues that my inexperience has overlooked, I'm genuinely interested
and finally, am I the only one noticing it, when I get a mirror matchup? (I've always played random and this does not happen that frequently for me, and for u?)
I would have used the term pressure for that fine paragraph.
I'd use "surprise" for the fact that they have to get out of their base at least once to play before capping on their 2 base, just to know which race they have to counter...
"have to get a universal one" (a build order)
...AAAAAA finnaly,after a week of trying, someone utters terms I feel real kinship with, ...., I think I only wanna build maps for such "universal" play, ... not everyone is Qxc, Hydra or Huk or whoever is dominating the scene (sorry dunno td known players names).
I might just add to your list, if I may, the fact that random players experiment more with the game... not everything is about winning for sure while doing a build you've done so many times... this experimentation is where a good part of the strategy can be found
as for "random" issues not being map related, on the contrary, we produce maps mostly with play in mind, don't we?
@http://www.sc2mapster.com/profiles/s3rius/
""balances" the players, not the game.", I agree and that seems interesting, no? Oh and I'm not advocating everyone playing random but saying that it should be a bonus for players since "working on their gameplay" would be difficult, the tactics even more based on every quirk of the game, every match up on every map... or such a thing as universal builds...
@http://www.sc2mapster.com/profiles/SleepSheep/
I must admit that if I go through the disadvantages, I'm perfectly aware that it's 3 times as long to flourish choosing random, I get creamed because of it, still I feel it's more fun to always be on the up and up and lose rather than just playing with a third of the units and win more often...
I totally agree on the method you suggested (10 20 games per race...etc) if you wish to WIN more than you wish to have FUN (and I do mean rts fun!), should have titled the op "random is the only way to play to get the most fun and insight out of the game"...
Just like for so many "shinny" things, winning is not all it's cracked up to be... just a part of the fun... something achieved too easily is less cherished by the player, so I'll be sticking with the always random, for fun.
By the by: my usual :
z : jump ling to get roach spine hive, and scout to know where to go from there...
toss : 2 gate, scout and react accordingly...
t : marine and whatever I scout is needed ...
I feel tier 2 is generally overrated before the 10 minute mark...
thank you for the comment
(this depending on the map of course)
You mean random as in picking random for melee games?
First: This is a mapping forum. Not that im saying that its not allowed to post such topics here, what i mean is that you're a lot less likely to get some good posts in this thread as you would on a regular sc2 forum like TL (har har), Armory or SCA...
Now, i'm a random player. I sometimes pick a race when my ally asks me to, or when i get pissed off by the fact that random isn't really random but 90% terran (believe me, happened)
I'll just put up the advantages and disadvantages for random players that are my personal opinion, or opinions of other people on other such threads i read on other forums a while ago:
First, advantages only count if you're a good player, by which i mean plat-diamond, maybe even gold. advantages:
Knows all races
Possibly knows more timings and weaknesses
A lot of players have that one weak matchup. Random gives you a lower chance of getting it (unless you've got multiple weak matchups)
When you play random, you sometimes get screwed over by that one build/timing attack. You know how hard it is to deal with against certain units with certain races. You can exploit that when the positions are turned around since you're not stuck on a single race
If tournaments try to get equal number of races, you've got a lot higher chance to get in since first of all there arent many randoms, and second of all you can just pick the race that's missing if random slots are filled
In tournaments, there is a decent chance you get that one bad matchup when you pick your race. With Random you aren't instantly doomed, unless you get unlucky and get the wrong races all the time
The element of surprise. "Should i wall off? He might be zerg and could do run bys... But walling i'd rather not wall, he might have gotten terran/toss afterall. Wait, what if he has a proxy pylon in my base? Or maybe he's getting a fast reaper? Or mass mutas? 6pool? >.<"
i know i hate it when i don't know my opponents race from the start since i can't go a build good against that race, but have to get a universal one that might not be the best against certain races, or at least not as good
disadvantages:
Mirror matchups. Unless that's the weak matchup for your opponent and you're strong one, you're most likely at a disadvantage
Doesn't know his race as good as non-random players
Needs to practice a lot more due to larger number of builds, counters and matchups he needs to know
Sometimes depends on luck with starting positions, races and maps
Harder to pick your map preferences, since some maps are good for one race and bad for another. I like scrap as zerg, but hate it with all other races
That's all that i can think off for now.
TLO was random during beta, but then decided to pick terran because his protoss was bad and made him lose in tournaments (if he hadnt gotten protoss that muich in the end of the HDH, he wouldve been more likely to win). Pro players rarely do race switches, but since TLO was playing random before, he can switch as much as he wants between Zerg and Terran since he's absolutely awesome with both.
As far as i know, Day[9] is random as well.
There are far less random players in the proffesional sc2 scene simply because most players have an easier time practicing and perfecting one race instead of 3.
One thing someone else said and i agree with, is that it should be recommended to play random for a while, see what race fits you best and you play easiest with, and then stick to that one instead of random. Well, i agree with it up to the last part. Stick to that race unless you prefer random and can play all races well enough.
Also, for proportions on random players... I think you'd have to check sc2ranks or whatever the site is where you can get the statistics. I think 5-10% of players are random
About rules about changing races in tournaments, it all depends on the tournament. The ones i run don't allow race changes, and i think most don't either.
Roughly 9% of people play random. Personally I've never played random. I found that jumping from one race to the next wasn't as efficient as simply trying 20 games as terran, 20 as protoss, 20 as zerg for example. I found that because I was always the same race I could get to the point where I was comfortable with each and then decide which I liked.
In the end I found that I enjoyed Terran unit diversity. The fact that you can go TLO-style and win with any combination of units is really cool, just look at TvT mirrors. I really dislike Protoss mostly because it seems for them that there are lots of things they can do, but most relies heavy on the same units like stalkers and immortals no matter what you are fighting. I dislike Zerg because I really do not like their early tiers although I haven't played with range enhanced roaches so maybe they've gotten better. The Zerg though do have some very powerful mechanics in their abilities to expand and quickly switch strats.
Overall, though, I would never play random. I once thought that playing another race really allows for one to exploit their weaknesses, but in truth, simply playing against the race until you have some very strong strategies and also enough knowledge to counter all their strategies is enough. I don't need to have played a 5min insert x unit rush to be cautious of it. Also, a very early scout negates even a 6 pool rush from a random player so you're never really caught unprepared.
I played random when I was worse. It's good to get to know all races relatively well while still not really needing to know strategies or special build orders.
Once I started climbing up the ladder I stopped playing random and chose a main race, to actually improve my play.
3/ What is the "rule" about changing races in tourneys? If any?
4/Is playing random not the only way to get "extra" showmanship or skill out of the players, guaranteeing "balance" nonsense?
3:
That really depends on the tournament. I think in most tournaments you can play random or switch your race as much as you want to. Most people don't, because they have a main race, though.
Some other tournaments might not allow it. The small TheHelper tournament, for example, doesn't allow switching races (you may chose random, but then you have to play all matches as random).
4:
"Forcing" the players to play random is basically taking away choices from them. Balancing a game should *never* consist of simply taking away as many choices as you have to to make it balanced. It basically "balances" the players, not the game.
I'm an achievement whore. I play random :P But for competitive game purpose I still have protoss as my main race however. You does have the benefits of knowing all race in and out.
Experimentation can be done with all races. Playing random may give you the impression you're experimenting more but it could just be that it only seems that way because you're playing in more match ups so you're just exposed to more unique situations.
There are benefits of playing random, but of course playing only one race allows you to hone your builds and precision more since honing your play in 3 match ups is a lot easier to accomplish than honing play in 9 match ups. So it may take a more creative player to pull of playing random well, like TLO, but eventually even he limited himself to playing only one race.
I'd suggest that you play what you most enjoy. If you enjoy playing random more than one particular race, go for it. But in my experience you'll become more of a threat on ladder if you stick with one race. I think it's also good to play on the other side of the match up; in other words if you're a protoss, you might want to play terran versus protoss as the terran so as to understand the other side's perspective.
A lot of players have that one weak matchup. Random gives you a lower chance of getting it (unless you've got multiple weak matchups)
If tournaments try to get equal number of races, you've got a lot higher chance to get in since first of all there arent many randoms, and second of all you can just pick the race that's missing if random slots are filled
In tournaments, there is a decent chance you get that one bad matchup when you pick your race. With Random you aren't instantly doomed, unless you get unlucky and get the wrong races all the time
A lot of players have one weak matchup because they only play one race; if you play random odds are you've got a lot more weak matchups, and because you practice playing 3 races instead of 1 you will not learn to cope with them at a fast pace at all, thus actually ending up being a lot weaker against your weaknesses.
And if you're going to play in a tournament against serious players you're not going to win with a third of their experience in the race you're playing. They've practiced dozens of strategies as their one race while you were out "just playing" the races (because, lets face it, if you play Random you're not practicing any race at all, you're "just playing" them).
Honestly, if you want to learn how to play races it's best to just pick them one by one. If you go into games playing as random you're not practicing a strategy because you don't know what race you're playing in advance and you'll not learn a lot about the races you're playing.
For learning, it's a lot more useful to simply pick the races one by one and practicing them for 10-20 games at a time. In those games you'll learn a lot more than just "occasionally" playing the race over 60 games, especially if you go in playing with Random, and, honestly, I have yet to meet anyone decent without at least 20-30% of their games played as their "off-races", and odds are while they were playing them they were practicing them in a row executing strategies, learning timings and build orders, finding out what the race can hold up to (to help themselves), when they are weak, how certain units are countered by their own race; while when you were playing them "occasionally" in random you were probably just building ranged units to attack move.
Random is fun and all, but most randoms I meet do this:
and they know very little about each race because they haven't "really" practiced playing them. The ones that do stuff differently (and play well) are mostly the ones that don't actually have Random as their most played race (mostly as their least played one). If your goal is to learn how to actually play a race, then play them one at a time until you're decent-good at every race, then you can play random a lot more effectively.
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Random is the only way to play to "get" the whole game. well that's just what my opinion is...
I'm sorry for the aggressive titles, but hey, were on a forum...
I just wanted to know about stuff on the random issue, and you gals and guys are so obliging and well mannered, so here I go with my first batch of questions:
1/ What's the proportion of randoms overall, I'm sure the most competitive players do not choose it, but what of "most" of the players?
2/ Is there an equivalent in mods ...?
3/ What is the "rule" about changing races in tourneys? If any?
4/Is playing random not the only way to get "extra" showmanship or skill out of the players, guaranteeing "balance" nonsense?
feel free to add other random related issues that my inexperience has overlooked, I'm genuinely interested
and finally, am I the only one noticing it, when I get a mirror matchup? (I've always played random and this does not happen that frequently for me, and for u?)
thanks for reading
responses:
@ http://www.sc2mapster.com/profiles/TheAlmaity/ "The element of surprise"
I would have used the term pressure for that fine paragraph. I'd use "surprise" for the fact that they have to get out of their base at least once to play before capping on their 2 base, just to know which race they have to counter...
"have to get a universal one" (a build order)
...AAAAAA finnaly,after a week of trying, someone utters terms I feel real kinship with, ...., I think I only wanna build maps for such "universal" play, ... not everyone is Qxc, Hydra or Huk or whoever is dominating the scene (sorry dunno td known players names).
I might just add to your list, if I may, the fact that random players experiment more with the game... not everything is about winning for sure while doing a build you've done so many times... this experimentation is where a good part of the strategy can be found
as for "random" issues not being map related, on the contrary, we produce maps mostly with play in mind, don't we?
@http://www.sc2mapster.com/profiles/s3rius/ ""balances" the players, not the game.", I agree and that seems interesting, no? Oh and I'm not advocating everyone playing random but saying that it should be a bonus for players since "working on their gameplay" would be difficult, the tactics even more based on every quirk of the game, every match up on every map... or such a thing as universal builds...
@http://www.sc2mapster.com/profiles/SleepSheep/ I must admit that if I go through the disadvantages, I'm perfectly aware that it's 3 times as long to flourish choosing random, I get creamed because of it, still I feel it's more fun to always be on the up and up and lose rather than just playing with a third of the units and win more often...
@http://www.sc2mapster.com/profiles/mark8264
I totally agree on the method you suggested (10 20 games per race...etc) if you wish to WIN more than you wish to have FUN (and I do mean rts fun!), should have titled the op "random is the only way to play to get the most fun and insight out of the game"... Just like for so many "shinny" things, winning is not all it's cracked up to be... just a part of the fun... something achieved too easily is less cherished by the player, so I'll be sticking with the always random, for fun.
By the by: my usual :
z : jump ling to get roach spine hive, and scout to know where to go from there...
toss : 2 gate, scout and react accordingly...
t : marine and whatever I scout is needed ...
I feel tier 2 is generally overrated before the 10 minute mark... thank you for the comment (this depending on the map of course)
You mean random as in picking random for melee games?
First: This is a mapping forum. Not that im saying that its not allowed to post such topics here, what i mean is that you're a lot less likely to get some good posts in this thread as you would on a regular sc2 forum like TL (har har), Armory or SCA...
Now, i'm a random player. I sometimes pick a race when my ally asks me to, or when i get pissed off by the fact that random isn't really random but 90% terran (believe me, happened)
I'll just put up the advantages and disadvantages for random players that are my personal opinion, or opinions of other people on other such threads i read on other forums a while ago:
First, advantages only count if you're a good player, by which i mean plat-diamond, maybe even gold.
advantages:
i know i hate it when i don't know my opponents race from the start since i can't go a build good against that race, but have to get a universal one that might not be the best against certain races, or at least not as good
disadvantages:
That's all that i can think off for now.
TLO was random during beta, but then decided to pick terran because his protoss was bad and made him lose in tournaments (if he hadnt gotten protoss that muich in the end of the HDH, he wouldve been more likely to win). Pro players rarely do race switches, but since TLO was playing random before, he can switch as much as he wants between Zerg and Terran since he's absolutely awesome with both.
As far as i know, Day[9] is random as well.
There are far less random players in the proffesional sc2 scene simply because most players have an easier time practicing and perfecting one race instead of 3.
One thing someone else said and i agree with, is that it should be recommended to play random for a while, see what race fits you best and you play easiest with, and then stick to that one instead of random. Well, i agree with it up to the last part. Stick to that race unless you prefer random and can play all races well enough.
Also, for proportions on random players... I think you'd have to check sc2ranks or whatever the site is where you can get the statistics. I think 5-10% of players are random
About rules about changing races in tournaments, it all depends on the tournament. The ones i run don't allow race changes, and i think most don't either.
Roughly 9% of people play random. Personally I've never played random. I found that jumping from one race to the next wasn't as efficient as simply trying 20 games as terran, 20 as protoss, 20 as zerg for example. I found that because I was always the same race I could get to the point where I was comfortable with each and then decide which I liked.
In the end I found that I enjoyed Terran unit diversity. The fact that you can go TLO-style and win with any combination of units is really cool, just look at TvT mirrors. I really dislike Protoss mostly because it seems for them that there are lots of things they can do, but most relies heavy on the same units like stalkers and immortals no matter what you are fighting. I dislike Zerg because I really do not like their early tiers although I haven't played with range enhanced roaches so maybe they've gotten better. The Zerg though do have some very powerful mechanics in their abilities to expand and quickly switch strats.
Overall, though, I would never play random. I once thought that playing another race really allows for one to exploit their weaknesses, but in truth, simply playing against the race until you have some very strong strategies and also enough knowledge to counter all their strategies is enough. I don't need to have played a 5min insert x unit rush to be cautious of it. Also, a very early scout negates even a 6 pool rush from a random player so you're never really caught unprepared.
I played random when I was worse. It's good to get to know all races relatively well while still not really needing to know strategies or special build orders.
Once I started climbing up the ladder I stopped playing random and chose a main race, to actually improve my play.
3:
That really depends on the tournament. I think in most tournaments you can play random or switch your race as much as you want to. Most people don't, because they have a main race, though.
Some other tournaments might not allow it. The small TheHelper tournament, for example, doesn't allow switching races (you may chose random, but then you have to play all matches as random).
4:
"Forcing" the players to play random is basically taking away choices from them. Balancing a game should *never* consist of simply taking away as many choices as you have to to make it balanced. It basically "balances" the players, not the game.
I'm an achievement whore. I play random :P But for competitive game purpose I still have protoss as my main race however. You does have the benefits of knowing all race in and out.
@houndofbaskerville: Go
Experimentation can be done with all races. Playing random may give you the impression you're experimenting more but it could just be that it only seems that way because you're playing in more match ups so you're just exposed to more unique situations.
There are benefits of playing random, but of course playing only one race allows you to hone your builds and precision more since honing your play in 3 match ups is a lot easier to accomplish than honing play in 9 match ups. So it may take a more creative player to pull of playing random well, like TLO, but eventually even he limited himself to playing only one race.
I'd suggest that you play what you most enjoy. If you enjoy playing random more than one particular race, go for it. But in my experience you'll become more of a threat on ladder if you stick with one race. I think it's also good to play on the other side of the match up; in other words if you're a protoss, you might want to play terran versus protoss as the terran so as to understand the other side's perspective.
A lot of players have one weak matchup because they only play one race; if you play random odds are you've got a lot more weak matchups, and because you practice playing 3 races instead of 1 you will not learn to cope with them at a fast pace at all, thus actually ending up being a lot weaker against your weaknesses.
And if you're going to play in a tournament against serious players you're not going to win with a third of their experience in the race you're playing. They've practiced dozens of strategies as their one race while you were out "just playing" the races (because, lets face it, if you play Random you're not practicing any race at all, you're "just playing" them).
Honestly, if you want to learn how to play races it's best to just pick them one by one. If you go into games playing as random you're not practicing a strategy because you don't know what race you're playing in advance and you'll not learn a lot about the races you're playing.
For learning, it's a lot more useful to simply pick the races one by one and practicing them for 10-20 games at a time. In those games you'll learn a lot more than just "occasionally" playing the race over 60 games, especially if you go in playing with Random, and, honestly, I have yet to meet anyone decent without at least 20-30% of their games played as their "off-races", and odds are while they were playing them they were practicing them in a row executing strategies, learning timings and build orders, finding out what the race can hold up to (to help themselves), when they are weak, how certain units are countered by their own race; while when you were playing them "occasionally" in random you were probably just building ranged units to attack move.
Random is fun and all, but most randoms I meet do this:
Terran: Marines + Marauders + Medivacs/Siege Tanks
Protoss: 4 Gate
Zerg: Roach/Hydra
and they know very little about each race because they haven't "really" practiced playing them. The ones that do stuff differently (and play well) are mostly the ones that don't actually have Random as their most played race (mostly as their least played one). If your goal is to learn how to actually play a race, then play them one at a time until you're decent-good at every race, then you can play random a lot more effectively.