Now before this discussion begins, let me first say that this is meant to be a reasonable and logical discussion on ethics, morals and maps. If you feel you can only answer using only emotions and illogical statements please refrain from doing so. Moderators, I apologize, I know i'm kicking up the beehive going into this and I apologize for any sort of flaming that comes out of this.
Integrity is the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles
According to the ethics of today's society, it is wrong to steal another persons work and claim it as their own, or as it's called in academia, to plagiarize. However when approaching the side of creation, we often see many things used and not accredited or simply ideas that floated into the minds of others when they did or participated in something else, like children when they see a movie and then play with legos and use the ideas they got from the movie when creating awesome brick creations.
Now when a person sees an idea and improves upon it, this is not a bad thing, however the person needs to give proper attribution to the original creator. This brings me into my second point.
Ethics and Maps
Now most of you saw this coming in the topic and this is ground we've covered plenty of times in these forums, but I feel that with the upcoming 5 years anniversary of SC2, this topic should resurface. I have a series a questions that I want feedback on, I'll also post my own personal answers. at the end
As a map maker, is it ethically proper for you to copy others peoples maps, change stuff and publish it as long as you give proper attribution and the map was unlocked?
What if the map was locked?
And what if it was locked and the maker declared they had abandoned it?
And if it was abandoned for 3 years, and was broken from all the blizzard patches?
What if you've tried all possible ways to get in contact with the maker, and have gotten no replies? How long should you wait for a reply?
As a map maker is it ethical of you to abandon a map and let future patches break said map, without ever updating it?
Is it ethical to post maps that you didn't copy a map file from another maker, but the game is almost the same as another game aside from terrain and certain aspects of data and trigger coding?
My answers
I'd say it should be fine in this case
This would be a no go then.
Grey area, some cases i'd say yes, sometimes i'd say no. Depends on how they say they abandoned it. If they said it's just due to RL issues it could be temporary and more of a haitus which would be a no. If the permanently are done with it, I'd say yes.
At this point probably a yes.
Given that he's abandoned the map, I'd say give it a month and then go for it.
I'd argue this is unethical of the maker to do so.
I'd say it should be fine, if you took ideas you'd need to attribute them, but other than that it should be okay.
Now as many of you have probably guessed, I'm asking this because I'm thinking about cracking a locked map, that the maker has abandoned (hasn't done anything) for over a year and a half, and the recent patches broke it even more.
i make it short, no problem in all of the cases. it was problematic in wc3 but it is not in sc2 due to server side hosting. fake maps will most likely not get as popular as the original ones aslong as they are being updated.
1. Seems fine to me.
2. If it's been out for a significant period of time, then sure. If it's a year+ old then definitely ok. But even a few months old wouldn't be too bad. I would think something less than a month old would be too soon though.
3. Seems fine to me for most things. I would be a little more skeptical of something someone put an actual money investment into though such as what Oracle is doing with LoC.
4. Seems fine. Reckons back to my 1 year rule mentioned in #2.
5. Perhaps a week.
6. Sure, it is just a hobby after all. I'd say it'd be less ethical for a player base to feel entitled to free content. If they paid something though, I'd take the reverse stance. I'm not quite decided on donations/tips in this situation though... In that case I think I would lean more towards the player base shouldn't feel entitled since I believe tips should be based on enjoyment you've already got from something, and not for future content.
7. Yea, but it would be polite to still credit the first map with something like "Inspired by X created by Y"
I dont actually agree with all but I guess there needs to be a prime directive on this matters of taking maps that are ''ABANDON" and the ways to go about it.
1. As a map maker, is it ethically proper for you to copy others peoples maps, change stuff and publish it as long as you give proper attribution and the map was unlocked?
The way I see it, locking or not locking your map is the practical way of expressing whether you want others to copy/alter/change your stuff or not. This would become more grey if absolutely no attribution is given (you straight up copy and re-publish a map), but if there's proper attribution and the map was unlocked, I feel that the original author has absolutely zero right to complain.
Staying in line with my previous answer, no. If the map was locked, that is - to me - an expression of the author that they do not want their work altered. Doing it anyway at that point is going directly against the authors will as you can perceive it. Of course, I would also argue that this only goes in cases where you publicly publish a map. If you absolutely love a closed map but hate one feature, break into the map, change the feature, and continue playing it with just your friends, then what harm is really done?
3. And what if it was locked and the maker declared they had abandoned it?
We go back to my answer for question 1. If the author declares in any way that they are not (or no longer) engaged with their work, it only helps the world if another picks up the pickaxe and keeps tunnelling. This is of course barring situations where the maker is incapable of reliably making judgement calls, such as in the case of dementia, even if that scenario is pretty far out there for mapping.
4. And if it was abandoned for 3 years, and was broken from all the blizzard patches?
5. What if you've tried all possible ways to get in contact with the maker, and have gotten no replies? How long should you wait for a reply?
None of this really matters in my case, as I'd already give a green light if the author states to have abandoned their map. If the original author refrains from giving you a response and suddenly doubles back and starts shouting at you for stealing his map, he isn't being realistic or practical either way. I'm a bit of a utilitarian person, and look at it this way: in a worst case scenario, the author does get upset, you take down your cracked/published version of the map, and effectively nothing has changed from the previous status quo.
6. As a map maker is it ethical of you to abandon a map and let future patches break said map, without ever updating it?
I like to make decisions that do the least harm and the most good. On the one hand, it may be unethical to just abandon a map and leave thousands of players hanging. Even if they're all only mildly annoyed, their collective harm may still be larger than the slight effort it would cost you to keep updating your map. However, I also like to be realistic, and one person's genuine stress and anger over having to work on a project they do not want to put any energy in will sooner rather than later overcome the 'collective harm' that is the annoyance of the map's players.
7. Is it ethical to post maps that you didn't copy a map file from another maker, but the game is almost the same as another game aside from terrain and certain aspects of data and trigger coding?
You're effectively asking here if it's ethical to steal someone's entire concept and idea without actually directly stealing material goods or information. While it is something I would never do, I'd have to say here that I think this is perfectly ethical: it just makes you an asshole. However, I also believe that the vision of a project such as a map will never be realized in the same way as the original author had it in mind by anyone who tries to steal it, and as such my mindset is one of "go ahead, it won't be as good anyway".
As a map maker, is it ethically proper for you to copy others peoples maps, change stuff and publish it as long as you give proper attribution and the map was unlocked?
This is fine with permission, otherwise I'd tend to frown on anything more than learning from others maps.
What if the map was locked?
Same as I just said before.
And what if it was locked and the maker declared they had abandoned it?
Again, if they declared they had abandoned it and it was okay to take over/mess with, no problem. However, if not, I would not feel right about just grabbing it. If you see a car abandoned by the side of the road, is it fine just to take it if it has been a year? Sure it will have deteriorated, but would you still do it? I'd be reluctant to without a really good reason.
And if it was abandoned for 3 years, and was broken from all the blizzard patches?
Same as my car example, just more deterioration.
What if you've tried all possible ways to get in contact with the maker, and have gotten no replies? How long should you wait for a reply?
Absence of a reply does not equal consent. I would not take this as an invitation to take over something, even if it is easier to get forgiveness than permission sometimes.
As a map maker is it ethical of you to abandon a map and let future patches break said map, without ever updating it?
I feel it is my right to let a project of mine die without being taken over by someone else, yes. Me losing interest in something for a couple years doesn't mean I want someone else to take it over so I can't again in the future.
Is it ethical to post maps that you didn't copy a map file from another maker, but the game is almost the same as another game aside from terrain and certain aspects of data and trigger coding?
All of us should quit now if this isn't okay. Almost every game type, game mechanic, etc has already been done already, just not the way I might put it together. Attribution should be given, within reason. IE, if your game is totally built around a really cool ability, hero, whatever that you got from elsewhere, should definitely mention that. But not every game with jumping should give credit to Mario Brothers (I know it wasn't the first), not every game with guns should give credit to Contra (Again, I realize not the first). All of us see things, experience things that inspire us to make what we make. It doesn't mean we should attribute every tree we saw while thinking something up, the toilet model number of where we were sitting when we had an epiphany.
I will echo what Mozard has said. If your map is locked, it means that you do not wish for others to alter it, and it is a pretty simple concept.
I am pretty sure that any decent mapmaker will have some way of being contacted listed on their map, or website related to their map. If a map is abandoned, unplayable, locked, and you cannot contact the author; then why not just remake the map from scratch? If it is a playable, fun game which was abandoned; why should someone else jump in and possible break it, or split the community?
Bringing me to my favorite thought: Separating a game community. This is the biggest issue in my opinion. If there are multiple versions of the same game (like desert strike HOTS for instance) then you are splitting a community in half. If the game isnt in the top 10 already, then you may be splitting a community into small enough bits that it destroys the community.
I understand where the thought is coming from, in that this is an art form, and that anything that can be used to push gamemaking forward (including using work that isn't your own to speed up the process) is a net gain for the community. Look at the.. ten thousand... people who join mapster like, "I know nothing of mapmaking, but I absolutely love to play squad TD. I believe that the game would be much better if zealots could fly, and everyone had more income". Or the ever infinite, "I want to play hearthstone, but i want to design the cards." Do you think it is "right" in any other aspect of the world for someone to take your work, put a sticker on it, and call it their own?
Comparatively, I think that if you want to start from scratch and remake every aspect of someone else's game, down to the T, and then change that T to an I, because you like it that way; all the power to you. If you want to remake a project I have spent years working on, and do it faster than me, and write that I suck on the loading screen; all the power to you. That is your project, and you worked to achieve your goals.
This is a very complex topic. Before I proceed any further, we must first recognize that this is the very situation that copyright and patents attempted to solved, with vary degree of success. So I'll clear the economic component out of the way to start.
When we speak of attribution, one must first enumerate WHAT is being used and thus is be attributed. Is it the code library that is the basis of your implementations of the mechanics? Is it the art style that defines your game? Is it the narrative and story structure?
Since we are talking directly about maps themselves, we must have to bundle up all the concepts that are in that map. Which can be any or all of the above categories, with many left unstated.
I will present two very different attitudes, which will affect very much how someone will view the taking of maps.
1) The creative game designer. This is the overwhelming amount of mapmakers. They are a creative person, who wishes to translate an idea they have into a game, or take an existing element of game, and either make it the basis for a game, or make a game with differing rations of elements, a better mix if you will. For this individual, the taking of a map represents an affront, a taking of ones thoughts and ideas. Some people are comfortable with their ideas being reused or modified, so they leave their map unlocked. Others do not feel as such, and will lock their maps. This is the general attitude I have seen expressed in most of the comments so far.
2) The engineer. This is the individual who builds, for no other reason then to build. Perhaps they are an aspiring coder (myself for example, who does mapmaking to exercise my logical and programming knowledge), an artist, a modeler, a musician, a voice actor. They are happy to contribute to a map, and may be rather involved with it, but in the end, it is a transitory thing, one that can be replaced, and often WILL be replaced. In this mindset, the map is of little importance, the work on the map is what is valued. They will not care who takes, since they have lost nothing.
Q. As a map maker, is it ethically proper for you to copy others peoples maps, change stuff and publish it as long as you give proper attribution and the map was unlocked?
A. No, that is called stealing.
Q. What if the map was locked?
A. See above.
Q. And what if it was locked and the maker declared they had abandoned it?
A. Nope, either remake it or contact the author and ask for permission.
Q. And if it was abandoned for 3 years, and was broken from all the blizzard patches?
A. See above
Q. What if you've tried all possible ways to get in contact with the maker, and have gotten no replies? How long should you wait for a reply?
A. If it takes to long, you're probably better off remaking the map/game from scratch.
Q. As a map maker is it ethical of you to abandon a map and let future patches break said map, without ever updating it?
A. Yes, unless there is some sort of financial investment from players then you have absolutely no obligation to do anything.
Q. Is it ethical to post maps that you didn't copy a map file from another maker, but the game is almost the same as another game aside from terrain and certain aspects of data and trigger coding?
A. Of course, this is the entire basis of how inspiration works. There would be no Dota 2 or Heroes of the Storm without the original Dota and so on.
1. As a mapmaker, I would love to be contacted by others about possible improvements, collaboration, etc. I would be happy to encounter other people that are such involved in your own creation. People just doing so without asking before seems rude to me. If you are not actively developing your game right now, then you might become out of touch with its current state and what it needs to improve. Input is always great, but it is still your creation, so you should have the last voice. (The other person could just recreate the game (NOT copy) and add their own touch/ideas into it...)
2. No no.
3. I would still try to contact the author, but already start working in secret as he announced to abandon it. Btw, if the map is small, just recreate your own version instead of editing existing maps. Btw, always give credit to the original author then as either inspiration, idea or original author and that you took over due to his/her inactivity.
But I assume I would just always recreate the map unless you are only doing a few bug fixes.
4. Same as 3.
5. A couple of weeks. But I would be working on it already, though. But just don't publish it publicly, yet...
6. Well, there will be a time where you don't have time or the energy to work on your maps. But a person contacting you about the map might bring the necessary momentum to get the author back on track.
7. Always try to add your own spin to it! Try to improve it for the sake of evolution! For example, use diff tilesets, create better terrain, add more features, add AI, add statistics, better UI, etc.
That is pretty much what I kept doing in SCBW. I took games I loved, recreated them and made better/different games out of it. Sometimes it was just to learn how something was created and then it became addicting.
For example, in SCBW I created "Poker Temple" because the existing poker defense map (I forgot the name, but the author was something like Tourmenteur, I am too lazy to open my old map again) at that time was buggy and thus unplayable. During that, I made the layout bigger, added better pathing and alternative game mode (which turned out to be more fun as it had a strategical element).
Do you think it is "right" in any other aspect of the world for someone to take your work, put a sticker on it, and call it their own?
Funnily enough, I could argue that the above is what creativity is. Humans have been inspired and created for ten thousands of years, and they'll continue to do so. I think it's not an inherently negative thing, as it is what has brought our art and culture to the level it is at now. We simply have to balance 'paying our dues' between the public's needs and the author's wishes and progression of expression. I feel like there are no rules to do this, and this is why I always try to tell people to think. If you think about what you're doing, you're conscious. You can make the choice not to be a dick, or, if you end up in a disagreement with someone as to whether you are a dick, you can at least ponder - as objectively as possible - who is in the right and what is the greatest good in the situation. Everything starts with thinking as we cannot properly govern what is essentially the most chaotic process known to man.
Creative activities can be put as making new combinations of existing things, not making new things from complete scratch.
Methods like trigger obfuscation implies that the maker wants to protect the combination they produced. Thus, reverse-engineering requires consent.
Q. As a map maker, is it ethically proper for you to copy others peoples maps, change stuff and publish it as long as you give proper attribution and the map was unlocked?
Yes.
Q. What if the map was locked? Q. And what if it was locked and the maker declared they had abandoned it?
Given that no reverse-engineering is done, yes. As I see a successful replication as a proof of creative ability, neither attribution nor consent would not be necessary.
Though, I don't see any point in making just a mimicked version of wanted map, when a playable execution already exists.
Q. And if it was abandoned for 3 years, and was broken from all the blizzard patches?
Then there's a point. No attribution is necessary, but it would be helpful to inform the players.
Q. What if you've tried all possible ways to get in contact with the maker, and have gotten no replies? How long should you wait for a reply?
I'd just work on replicating from scratch. Reverse-engineering requires consent.
Q. As a map maker is it ethical of you to abandon a map and let future patches break said map, without ever updating it?
Yes. Arcade maps are freely playable, so no users are entitled to demand an update or fix.
Q. Is it ethical to post maps that you didn't copy a map file from another maker, but the game is almost the same as another game aside from terrain and certain aspects of data and trigger coding?
I always find it strange that some people who mod games are bothered when other people mod their stuff.
I can sort of understand wanting credit for things, but I chuckle out loud at such concepts as locking your map. LOL!
I don't even consider creating arcade games to be "modding" honestly. To me, modding implies that you start with a game and modify it, whereas when you make an arcade game you quite literally start from scratch and have to make everything yourself. It is really more of an engine then a modding tool.
I don't even consider creating arcade games to be "modding" honestly. To me, modding implies that you start with a game and modify it, whereas when you make an arcade game you quite literally start from scratch and have to make everything yourself. It is really more of an engine then a modding tool.
Overall I'll agree, but I'd say there are some debatable exceptions. You take the SC2 engine and make a perfectly workable first person shooter in the galaxy editor, can you really say that's "just a map"? You did make some pretty core modifications to the way the game works, even if you didn't change the internal engine. But if "you have to change the internal engine" is the criteria to call something modding, then soon enough nobody will even want to 'mod' Blizzard games anymore because their editors allow you to make all the changes you need. Should we then stop using that term altogether just cause the knowledge required to do it has moved from 'engine' to 'editor'?
I'd say the line is a bit thinner there, though I can agree that making a MOBA map, Footman Wars or The Thing is more 'mapping' than 'modding'.
"when you make an arcade game you quite literally start from scratch and have to make everything yourself. It is really more of an engine then a modding tool."
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Curse PremiumPreface
Now before this discussion begins, let me first say that this is meant to be a reasonable and logical discussion on ethics, morals and maps. If you feel you can only answer using only emotions and illogical statements please refrain from doing so. Moderators, I apologize, I know i'm kicking up the beehive going into this and I apologize for any sort of flaming that comes out of this.
A Question of Ethics, Integrity and Maps.
Ethics and Integrity
From wikipedia
From wikipedia
According to the ethics of today's society, it is wrong to steal another persons work and claim it as their own, or as it's called in academia, to plagiarize. However when approaching the side of creation, we often see many things used and not accredited or simply ideas that floated into the minds of others when they did or participated in something else, like children when they see a movie and then play with legos and use the ideas they got from the movie when creating awesome brick creations.
Now when a person sees an idea and improves upon it, this is not a bad thing, however the person needs to give proper attribution to the original creator. This brings me into my second point.
Ethics and Maps
Now most of you saw this coming in the topic and this is ground we've covered plenty of times in these forums, but I feel that with the upcoming 5 years anniversary of SC2, this topic should resurface. I have a series a questions that I want feedback on, I'll also post my own personal answers. at the end
My answers
Now as many of you have probably guessed, I'm asking this because I'm thinking about cracking a locked map, that the maker has abandoned (hasn't done anything) for over a year and a half, and the recent patches broke it even more.
Still alive and kicking, just busy.
My guide to the trigger editor (still a work in progress)
@willuwontu: Go
i make it short, no problem in all of the cases. it was problematic in wc3 but it is not in sc2 due to server side hosting. fake maps will most likely not get as popular as the original ones aslong as they are being updated.
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Curse Premium1. Seems fine to me.
2. If it's been out for a significant period of time, then sure. If it's a year+ old then definitely ok. But even a few months old wouldn't be too bad. I would think something less than a month old would be too soon though.
3. Seems fine to me for most things. I would be a little more skeptical of something someone put an actual money investment into though such as what Oracle is doing with LoC.
4. Seems fine. Reckons back to my 1 year rule mentioned in #2.
5. Perhaps a week.
6. Sure, it is just a hobby after all. I'd say it'd be less ethical for a player base to feel entitled to free content. If they paid something though, I'd take the reverse stance. I'm not quite decided on donations/tips in this situation though... In that case I think I would lean more towards the player base shouldn't feel entitled since I believe tips should be based on enjoyment you've already got from something, and not for future content.
7. Yea, but it would be polite to still credit the first map with something like "Inspired by X created by Y"
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Curse PremiumI dont actually agree with all but I guess there needs to be a prime directive on this matters of taking maps that are ''ABANDON" and the ways to go about it.
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The way I see it, locking or not locking your map is the practical way of expressing whether you want others to copy/alter/change your stuff or not. This would become more grey if absolutely no attribution is given (you straight up copy and re-publish a map), but if there's proper attribution and the map was unlocked, I feel that the original author has absolutely zero right to complain.
Staying in line with my previous answer, no. If the map was locked, that is - to me - an expression of the author that they do not want their work altered. Doing it anyway at that point is going directly against the authors will as you can perceive it. Of course, I would also argue that this only goes in cases where you publicly publish a map. If you absolutely love a closed map but hate one feature, break into the map, change the feature, and continue playing it with just your friends, then what harm is really done?
We go back to my answer for question 1. If the author declares in any way that they are not (or no longer) engaged with their work, it only helps the world if another picks up the pickaxe and keeps tunnelling. This is of course barring situations where the maker is incapable of reliably making judgement calls, such as in the case of dementia, even if that scenario is pretty far out there for mapping.
None of this really matters in my case, as I'd already give a green light if the author states to have abandoned their map. If the original author refrains from giving you a response and suddenly doubles back and starts shouting at you for stealing his map, he isn't being realistic or practical either way. I'm a bit of a utilitarian person, and look at it this way: in a worst case scenario, the author does get upset, you take down your cracked/published version of the map, and effectively nothing has changed from the previous status quo.
I like to make decisions that do the least harm and the most good. On the one hand, it may be unethical to just abandon a map and leave thousands of players hanging. Even if they're all only mildly annoyed, their collective harm may still be larger than the slight effort it would cost you to keep updating your map. However, I also like to be realistic, and one person's genuine stress and anger over having to work on a project they do not want to put any energy in will sooner rather than later overcome the 'collective harm' that is the annoyance of the map's players.
You're effectively asking here if it's ethical to steal someone's entire concept and idea without actually directly stealing material goods or information. While it is something I would never do, I'd have to say here that I think this is perfectly ethical: it just makes you an asshole. However, I also believe that the vision of a project such as a map will never be realized in the same way as the original author had it in mind by anyone who tries to steal it, and as such my mindset is one of "go ahead, it won't be as good anyway".
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Curse PremiumI will echo what Mozard has said. If your map is locked, it means that you do not wish for others to alter it, and it is a pretty simple concept.
I am pretty sure that any decent mapmaker will have some way of being contacted listed on their map, or website related to their map. If a map is abandoned, unplayable, locked, and you cannot contact the author; then why not just remake the map from scratch? If it is a playable, fun game which was abandoned; why should someone else jump in and possible break it, or split the community?
Bringing me to my favorite thought: Separating a game community. This is the biggest issue in my opinion. If there are multiple versions of the same game (like desert strike HOTS for instance) then you are splitting a community in half. If the game isnt in the top 10 already, then you may be splitting a community into small enough bits that it destroys the community.
I understand where the thought is coming from, in that this is an art form, and that anything that can be used to push gamemaking forward (including using work that isn't your own to speed up the process) is a net gain for the community. Look at the.. ten thousand... people who join mapster like, "I know nothing of mapmaking, but I absolutely love to play squad TD. I believe that the game would be much better if zealots could fly, and everyone had more income". Or the ever infinite, "I want to play hearthstone, but i want to design the cards." Do you think it is "right" in any other aspect of the world for someone to take your work, put a sticker on it, and call it their own?
Comparatively, I think that if you want to start from scratch and remake every aspect of someone else's game, down to the T, and then change that T to an I, because you like it that way; all the power to you. If you want to remake a project I have spent years working on, and do it faster than me, and write that I suck on the loading screen; all the power to you. That is your project, and you worked to achieve your goals.
Skype: [email protected] Current Project: Custom Hero Arena! US: battlenet:://starcraft/map/1/263274 EU: battlenet:://starcraft/map/2/186418
This is a very complex topic. Before I proceed any further, we must first recognize that this is the very situation that copyright and patents attempted to solved, with vary degree of success. So I'll clear the economic component out of the way to start.
When we speak of attribution, one must first enumerate WHAT is being used and thus is be attributed. Is it the code library that is the basis of your implementations of the mechanics? Is it the art style that defines your game? Is it the narrative and story structure?
Since we are talking directly about maps themselves, we must have to bundle up all the concepts that are in that map. Which can be any or all of the above categories, with many left unstated.
I will present two very different attitudes, which will affect very much how someone will view the taking of maps.
1) The creative game designer. This is the overwhelming amount of mapmakers. They are a creative person, who wishes to translate an idea they have into a game, or take an existing element of game, and either make it the basis for a game, or make a game with differing rations of elements, a better mix if you will. For this individual, the taking of a map represents an affront, a taking of ones thoughts and ideas. Some people are comfortable with their ideas being reused or modified, so they leave their map unlocked. Others do not feel as such, and will lock their maps. This is the general attitude I have seen expressed in most of the comments so far.
2) The engineer. This is the individual who builds, for no other reason then to build. Perhaps they are an aspiring coder (myself for example, who does mapmaking to exercise my logical and programming knowledge), an artist, a modeler, a musician, a voice actor. They are happy to contribute to a map, and may be rather involved with it, but in the end, it is a transitory thing, one that can be replaced, and often WILL be replaced. In this mindset, the map is of little importance, the work on the map is what is valued. They will not care who takes, since they have lost nothing.
Q. As a map maker, is it ethically proper for you to copy others peoples maps, change stuff and publish it as long as you give proper attribution and the map was unlocked?
A. No, that is called stealing.
Q. What if the map was locked?
A. See above.
Q. And what if it was locked and the maker declared they had abandoned it?
A. Nope, either remake it or contact the author and ask for permission.
Q. And if it was abandoned for 3 years, and was broken from all the blizzard patches?
A. See above
Q. What if you've tried all possible ways to get in contact with the maker, and have gotten no replies? How long should you wait for a reply?
A. If it takes to long, you're probably better off remaking the map/game from scratch.
Q. As a map maker is it ethical of you to abandon a map and let future patches break said map, without ever updating it?
A. Yes, unless there is some sort of financial investment from players then you have absolutely no obligation to do anything.
Q. Is it ethical to post maps that you didn't copy a map file from another maker, but the game is almost the same as another game aside from terrain and certain aspects of data and trigger coding?
A. Of course, this is the entire basis of how inspiration works. There would be no Dota 2 or Heroes of the Storm without the original Dota and so on.
1. As a mapmaker, I would love to be contacted by others about possible improvements, collaboration, etc. I would be happy to encounter other people that are such involved in your own creation. People just doing so without asking before seems rude to me. If you are not actively developing your game right now, then you might become out of touch with its current state and what it needs to improve. Input is always great, but it is still your creation, so you should have the last voice. (The other person could just recreate the game (NOT copy) and add their own touch/ideas into it...)
2. No no.
3. I would still try to contact the author, but already start working in secret as he announced to abandon it. Btw, if the map is small, just recreate your own version instead of editing existing maps. Btw, always give credit to the original author then as either inspiration, idea or original author and that you took over due to his/her inactivity.
But I assume I would just always recreate the map unless you are only doing a few bug fixes.
4. Same as 3.
5. A couple of weeks. But I would be working on it already, though. But just don't publish it publicly, yet...
6. Well, there will be a time where you don't have time or the energy to work on your maps. But a person contacting you about the map might bring the necessary momentum to get the author back on track.
7. Always try to add your own spin to it! Try to improve it for the sake of evolution! For example, use diff tilesets, create better terrain, add more features, add AI, add statistics, better UI, etc.
That is pretty much what I kept doing in SCBW. I took games I loved, recreated them and made better/different games out of it. Sometimes it was just to learn how something was created and then it became addicting.
For example, in SCBW I created "Poker Temple" because the existing poker defense map (I forgot the name, but the author was something like Tourmenteur, I am too lazy to open my old map again) at that time was buggy and thus unplayable. During that, I made the layout bigger, added better pathing and alternative game mode (which turned out to be more fun as it had a strategical element).
Funnily enough, I could argue that the above is what creativity is. Humans have been inspired and created for ten thousands of years, and they'll continue to do so. I think it's not an inherently negative thing, as it is what has brought our art and culture to the level it is at now. We simply have to balance 'paying our dues' between the public's needs and the author's wishes and progression of expression. I feel like there are no rules to do this, and this is why I always try to tell people to think. If you think about what you're doing, you're conscious. You can make the choice not to be a dick, or, if you end up in a disagreement with someone as to whether you are a dick, you can at least ponder - as objectively as possible - who is in the right and what is the greatest good in the situation. Everything starts with thinking as we cannot properly govern what is essentially the most chaotic process known to man.
Interesting topic. My core viewpoints are:
Q. As a map maker, is it ethically proper for you to copy others peoples maps, change stuff and publish it as long as you give proper attribution and the map was unlocked?
Q. What if the map was locked?
Q. And what if it was locked and the maker declared they had abandoned it?
Q. And if it was abandoned for 3 years, and was broken from all the blizzard patches?
Q. What if you've tried all possible ways to get in contact with the maker, and have gotten no replies? How long should you wait for a reply?
Q. As a map maker is it ethical of you to abandon a map and let future patches break said map, without ever updating it?
Q. Is it ethical to post maps that you didn't copy a map file from another maker, but the game is almost the same as another game aside from terrain and certain aspects of data and trigger coding?
no no no
no no no
I always find it strange that some people who mod games are bothered when other people mod their stuff.
I can sort of understand wanting credit for things, but I chuckle out loud at such concepts as locking your map. LOL!
I don't even consider creating arcade games to be "modding" honestly. To me, modding implies that you start with a game and modify it, whereas when you make an arcade game you quite literally start from scratch and have to make everything yourself. It is really more of an engine then a modding tool.
agree
@Bounty_98: Go
Overall I'll agree, but I'd say there are some debatable exceptions. You take the SC2 engine and make a perfectly workable first person shooter in the galaxy editor, can you really say that's "just a map"? You did make some pretty core modifications to the way the game works, even if you didn't change the internal engine. But if "you have to change the internal engine" is the criteria to call something modding, then soon enough nobody will even want to 'mod' Blizzard games anymore because their editors allow you to make all the changes you need. Should we then stop using that term altogether just cause the knowledge required to do it has moved from 'engine' to 'editor'?
I'd say the line is a bit thinner there, though I can agree that making a MOBA map, Footman Wars or The Thing is more 'mapping' than 'modding'.
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Curse Premium@Mozared: Go
But he actually pretty much said what you said
"when you make an arcade game you quite literally start from scratch and have to make everything yourself. It is really more of an engine then a modding tool."
Go play Antioch Chronicles Remastered!
Also, coming soon, Antioch Episode 3: Thoughts in Chaos!
Dont like mapster's ugly white? Try Mapster's Classic Skin!
@Alevice: Go
Yes.
I might not have read Bounty's post correctly.