I was thinking about the theoretical possibility of porting a WC3 map into SC2. I've ran into several issues concerning the terrain:
Is there any way of importing the WC3 terrain directly that works even remotely correctly? The in-built function of Galaxy Editor is completely worthless.
Single unit in SC2 seems to equal 128 WC3 units. That makes it impossible to give a unit a range of 600 without it showing as 4,6875 in the UI (in the weapon tooltip), the same goes for Movement Speed. Is is even possible to resolve it somehow?
Can I use more than 8 tiles? If not are there any workaround around this limitation?
Can I modify the size of a single texture tile (it seems to be set to 10.67x10,67 units for whatever reason)
How to set camera to that of WC3? It would seem that setting Distance to 1650/128 should work but it doesn't. 1650 is default distance for WC3 camera.
In WC3 a cliff had a size of a single 128x128 tile. In SC2 it has the size of 2x2 which means it's 2 times larger. So to copy a 64x64 map into SC2 i'd need a 128x128 map. Is that correct?
Can a Water tile's size be modified? It seems ridiculously large.
In WC3 a cliff had a size of a single 128x128 tile. In SC2 it has the size of 2x2 which means it's 2 times larger. So to copy a 64x64 map into SC2 i'd need a 128x128 map. Is that correct?
No, I don't see the logic behind this one. In SC2 cliffs merely can't have odd numbers as dimensions - that doesn't mean they are twice as large. You can't make 1x1, 3x1, 3x3, etc. cliffs. a 64x64 map would still be 64x64, but a 63x63 map would have to be changed to 62x62 or 64x64
Can a Water tile's size be modified? It seems pretty ridiculous.
Nope, water doesn't work the same way in sc2 as wc3. The tiles are as they are, don't think their size can be modified, and there's no such thing as water pathing here or something along those lines, so to make naval units/restrictions you have to use workarounds.
I'm sure there's somewhere in the data editor that you can find the camera settings, never tried though.
I know how to set the camera. I just can't find appropriate Distance and View angle. Distance and angle for WC3 are 1650 and 70.
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No, I don't see the logic behind this one. In SC2 cliffs merely can't have odd numbers as dimensions - that doesn't mean they are twice as large. You can't make 1x1, 3x1, 3x3, etc. cliffs. a 64x64 map would still be 64x64, but a 63x63 map would have to be changed to 62x62 or 64x64
That would still mean that you need twice as large map to create a carbon copy of a WC3 map, right? Or I just completely fail here.
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Nope, water doesn't work the same way in sc2 as wc3. The tiles are as they are, don't think their size can be modified, and there's no such thing as water pathing here or something along those lines, so to make naval units/restrictions you have to use workarounds.
While I don't mean any offense, I think that if you need to ask about this, you're not going to succeed in doing it. I can imagine 'porting' a WC3 map is possible, but that would require extensive programming and 3d party usage. If you're here on this forum asking how it should be done, then you probably don't have that required knowledge in the first place.
By all means - try it, though. Some more data-savvy folks might pass by here and be able to help you.
I can't remember asking for some meaningless, vague advices. What I can remember, though, is asking specific questions which you didn't even bother to look at.
I know the specifications of most *.w3* files (those related to terrain) and the WE in and out. But yeah, I think I'll just abandon Galaxy Editor right at the beginning. I will clearlynot be able to do anything useful, seeing as I fail to break the in-built limitations after a whole day of using Galaxy.
Also I wasn't thinking about porting the map altogether. I may have incorrectly used the word "port". I'm just thinking about recreating a WC3 map.
Well that's a shame that you're not going to use the Galaxy Editor. It's MUCH more powerful than the WC3 editor, and you can do so much more. I'm not sure what limitations you're referring to, but there are fewer than in WC3. Also, you can't expect to learn how to use the Galaxy Editor in one day.
Well that's a shame that you're not going to use the Galaxy Editor. It's MUCH more powerful than the WC3 editor, and you can do so much more. I'm not sure what limitations you're referring to, but there are fewer than in WC3. Also, you can't expect to learn how to use the Galaxy Editor in one day.
Porting a WC3 map to SC2 is harder than you'd think. I didn't know about the unit difference between SC2/WC3 (128 in WC3 = 1 in SC2 etc) but it's helpful to know. Terrain also cant have more than 3 height levels in SC2, where as in WC3 you can have as many as you like. This can screw your port up because you have that 3 level restriction. For your camera change you need to make a custom camera and just apply it at map intialization through triggers.
Water tile size cant be modified, but you can paint different types of water at varying heights and use terrain deformations to make it seem like there is shallow water, etc in SC2 when there is no such thing. Also I'd love to see a third party utility that allows you to import a WC3 map's terrain into the SC2 Galaxy Editor
I never said it wasn't hard, I just said that the SC2 editor was much more powerful than the WC3 one. Also, there was a cliff level restriction in WC3; I think it was around 10.
What so far bothers me with the former in regards to the latter is that several functions that I consider vital are not as easily accessed, or in some cases aren't even implemented.
Mainly refering to vertical doodad rotation (flipping), different fog control, and the fact that doodads are always affected by the terrain height (implying that construction is borderline impossible on uneven ground). I also dislike how the choice of tileset directly affects the scenery to such extent that it gets monotonous.
What so far bothers me with the former in regards to the latter is that several functions that I consider vital are not as easily accessed, or in some cases aren't even implemented.
Mainly refering to vertical doodad rotation (flipping), different fog control, and the fact that doodads are always affected by the terrain height (implying that construction is borderline impossible on uneven ground). I also dislike how the choice of tileset directly affects the scenery to such extent that it gets monotonous.
As a note; doodads aren't always affect by terrain height - I take it you meant buildings? That said, you can turn this off in the data editor, I think. All of the other things you mentioned are changeable in the data editor. Most of it is still there, it's just harder to do.
I never said it wasn't hard, I just said that the SC2 editor was much more powerful than the WC3 one. Also, there was a cliff level restriction in WC3; I think it was around 10.
It was 14. We made a great step from 14 to 4. And There was 16 Tiles allowed, now there's 8.
Starcraft is a different game. It's not like they said. "Hey guys. You know what we should do? Remove all this code we made so the community suffers with less cliffs". They made this engine from scratch. Were 2+ cliff levels needed? Nope. So they left them out. Blizzard gave us soo much stuff that they didn't need. Heros, levels, items, inventory, loot, etc...
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It was 14. We made a great step from 14 to 4. And There was 16 Tiles allowed, now there's 8.
Where do these random limitations come from?
8 SC2 tiles are worth more than 16 WC3 tiles.
And 16 tiles are only possible in custom world editors, the original WE only supports like 7-11 tiles, depending on which ones you take, not to mention that you can't even pick certain tiles.
I made a terrain for a large RPG with just combining 8 textures. It isn't that hard, the hard part is to chose those 8 textures.
(I created deserts, mountains, beach, cities, jungle, forest and etc...). So, it's fairly possible to go just with 8.
Yup. You can go to the WarlordsORPG (just search Warlords) theme here on sc2mapster, and look at the trailer. Some of them contrain older terrain, some - newer.
Starcraft is a different game. It's not like they said. "Hey guys. You know what we should do? Remove all this code we made so the community suffers with less cliffs". They made this engine from scratch. Were 2+ cliff levels needed? Nope. So they left them out. Blizzard gave us soo much stuff that they didn't need. Heros, levels, items, inventory, loot, etc...
I don't know how can one look at the 3 cliff level limitation and not say it's ridicuolus. It seems that they imposed that limitation on themselves at the beginning. I have no idea what purpose it serves from the mapmaker's standpoint. It's not that having more than 3 cliff levels is bad for the gameplay or something.
Do you really believe that it's engines limitation? Having another level of terrain is too much for the engine to handle. Come on...
I don't know how can one look at the 3 cliff level limitation and not say it's ridicuolus. It seems that they imposed that limitation on themselves at the beginning. I have no idea what purpose it serves from the mapmaker's standpoint. It's not that having more than 3 cliff levels is bad for the gameplay or something.
Do you really believe that it's engines limitation? Having another level of terrain is too much for the engine to handle. Come on...
It's not too much to handle, but in doing so unless Blizzard modifies the way terrain works in all of SC2, it's going to a) crash it or b) cause other unwanted errors. And for them to fix it would require significant re-coding of the game in order to support more cliff levels.
I'm currently trying to port terrain from WC3 to SC2 just by using screenshots as reference, and it doesn't seem to work out. I cant view the map in question in World Edit cause it's locked, either. A simple WC3 to SC2 terrain converter would be amazing.
I don't know how can one look at the 3 cliff level limitation and not say it's ridicuolus. It seems that they imposed that limitation on themselves at the beginning. I have no idea what purpose it serves from the mapmaker's standpoint. It's not that having more than 3 cliff levels is bad for the gameplay or something.
Do you really believe that it's engines limitation? Having another level of terrain is too much for the engine to handle. Come on...
What Starkiller said, and also; you're forgetting that this kind of stuff comes with other boons. While people complain about limitation X they forget that there's pros for it too. Mainly in the performance section. Three cliffs levels are way easier to code than four, five, etc. Meaning the feat that SC runs so well on pretty much every PC can partly be attributed to us only having three cliff levels.
It's probably not as obvious as it is with the argument "Why aren't all the models high-resolution? That'd look way cooler!", but it's definitely there.
That's not to say I particularly like it either though.
Ain't the 3-level cliff limitation changable? All is needed is to change the height at the beggining of the map creation. Or am I mistaken? I saw it here somewhere...
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I was thinking about the theoretical possibility of porting a WC3 map into SC2. I've ran into several issues concerning the terrain:
Thanks in advance.
No. (if with tiles you mean tilesets)
Not that I know of. Maybe a different texture size of the texture itself changes this? No idea.
I'm sure there's somewhere in the data editor that you can find the camera settings, never tried though.
No, I don't see the logic behind this one. In SC2 cliffs merely can't have odd numbers as dimensions - that doesn't mean they are twice as large. You can't make 1x1, 3x1, 3x3, etc. cliffs. a 64x64 map would still be 64x64, but a 63x63 map would have to be changed to 62x62 or 64x64
Nope, water doesn't work the same way in sc2 as wc3. The tiles are as they are, don't think their size can be modified, and there's no such thing as water pathing here or something along those lines, so to make naval units/restrictions you have to use workarounds.
Also, welcome to sc2mapster :)
Yeah, I meant tilesets. Too bad. D:
I know how to set the camera. I just can't find appropriate Distance and View angle. Distance and angle for WC3 are 1650 and 70.
That would still mean that you need twice as large map to create a carbon copy of a WC3 map, right? Or I just completely fail here.
At least it looks pretty cool.
Thanks!
While I don't mean any offense, I think that if you need to ask about this, you're not going to succeed in doing it. I can imagine 'porting' a WC3 map is possible, but that would require extensive programming and 3d party usage. If you're here on this forum asking how it should be done, then you probably don't have that required knowledge in the first place.
By all means - try it, though. Some more data-savvy folks might pass by here and be able to help you.
I can't remember asking for some meaningless, vague advices. What I can remember, though, is asking specific questions which you didn't even bother to look at.
I know the specifications of most *.w3* files (those related to terrain) and the WE in and out. But yeah, I think I'll just abandon Galaxy Editor right at the beginning. I will clearlynot be able to do anything useful, seeing as I fail to break the in-built limitations after a whole day of using Galaxy.
Also I wasn't thinking about porting the map altogether. I may have incorrectly used the word "port". I'm just thinking about recreating a WC3 map.
@Cano8: Go
Well that's a shame that you're not going to use the Galaxy Editor. It's MUCH more powerful than the WC3 editor, and you can do so much more. I'm not sure what limitations you're referring to, but there are fewer than in WC3. Also, you can't expect to learn how to use the Galaxy Editor in one day.
Porting a WC3 map to SC2 is harder than you'd think. I didn't know about the unit difference between SC2/WC3 (128 in WC3 = 1 in SC2 etc) but it's helpful to know. Terrain also cant have more than 3 height levels in SC2, where as in WC3 you can have as many as you like. This can screw your port up because you have that 3 level restriction. For your camera change you need to make a custom camera and just apply it at map intialization through triggers.
Water tile size cant be modified, but you can paint different types of water at varying heights and use terrain deformations to make it seem like there is shallow water, etc in SC2 when there is no such thing. Also I'd love to see a third party utility that allows you to import a WC3 map's terrain into the SC2 Galaxy Editor
@ST4RKiLL3R: Go
I never said it wasn't hard, I just said that the SC2 editor was much more powerful than the WC3 one. Also, there was a cliff level restriction in WC3; I think it was around 10.
What so far bothers me with the former in regards to the latter is that several functions that I consider vital are not as easily accessed, or in some cases aren't even implemented.
Mainly refering to vertical doodad rotation (flipping), different fog control, and the fact that doodads are always affected by the terrain height (implying that construction is borderline impossible on uneven ground). I also dislike how the choice of tileset directly affects the scenery to such extent that it gets monotonous.
As a note; doodads aren't always affect by terrain height - I take it you meant buildings? That said, you can turn this off in the data editor, I think. All of the other things you mentioned are changeable in the data editor. Most of it is still there, it's just harder to do.
It was 14. We made a great step from 14 to 4. And There was 16 Tiles allowed, now there's 8.
Where do these random limitations come from?
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Starcraft is a different game. It's not like they said. "Hey guys. You know what we should do? Remove all this code we made so the community suffers with less cliffs". They made this engine from scratch. Were 2+ cliff levels needed? Nope. So they left them out. Blizzard gave us soo much stuff that they didn't need. Heros, levels, items, inventory, loot, etc...
8 SC2 tiles are worth more than 16 WC3 tiles.
And 16 tiles are only possible in custom world editors, the original WE only supports like 7-11 tiles, depending on which ones you take, not to mention that you can't even pick certain tiles.
I made a terrain for a large RPG with just combining 8 textures. It isn't that hard, the hard part is to chose those 8 textures. (I created deserts, mountains, beach, cities, jungle, forest and etc...). So, it's fairly possible to go just with 8.
@o3210: Go
Yes, but is the terrain any good?
Yup. You can go to the WarlordsORPG (just search Warlords) theme here on sc2mapster, and look at the trailer. Some of them contrain older terrain, some - newer.
I don't know how can one look at the 3 cliff level limitation and not say it's ridicuolus. It seems that they imposed that limitation on themselves at the beginning. I have no idea what purpose it serves from the mapmaker's standpoint. It's not that having more than 3 cliff levels is bad for the gameplay or something.
Do you really believe that it's engines limitation? Having another level of terrain is too much for the engine to handle. Come on...
It's not too much to handle, but in doing so unless Blizzard modifies the way terrain works in all of SC2, it's going to a) crash it or b) cause other unwanted errors. And for them to fix it would require significant re-coding of the game in order to support more cliff levels.
I'm currently trying to port terrain from WC3 to SC2 just by using screenshots as reference, and it doesn't seem to work out. I cant view the map in question in World Edit cause it's locked, either. A simple WC3 to SC2 terrain converter would be amazing.
What Starkiller said, and also; you're forgetting that this kind of stuff comes with other boons. While people complain about limitation X they forget that there's pros for it too. Mainly in the performance section. Three cliffs levels are way easier to code than four, five, etc. Meaning the feat that SC runs so well on pretty much every PC can partly be attributed to us only having three cliff levels.
It's probably not as obvious as it is with the argument "Why aren't all the models high-resolution? That'd look way cooler!", but it's definitely there.
That's not to say I particularly like it either though.
Ain't the 3-level cliff limitation changable? All is needed is to change the height at the beggining of the map creation. Or am I mistaken? I saw it here somewhere...