SC2Mapster

Ya the griefing is crazy.

If it's left vs right. dont make it possible for 1 team to build in the other. That'll at least protect 1 side from 1 griefer.

eradicator seems to be better then the upgraded tempest. thusly like 300 min cheaper. Though ya it doesnt work against air so theoretically worse. Moreover, it isnt exactly the super power thing we want. we need something to compare to ion cannons and apocs.

few other general things

hero burst missiles are only ground? meant to be that? How about an AOE stungun for hero that's expensive.

would love to see upgrade for the spawning pool

For the love of god, implement a way to kick people or at least stop people from building in your area. There is no way to even play this game at this point with the amount of players griefing and you can't do shit about it.

Just beat this game in left vs right mode, final right left at the start of the game and left side lost early on. My friend and I immediately rushed down to the final lane on the right side and built together. Soon we had the center far right joining us. Decided to split up the tasks, me being sunken mazed and my friend being humanoid built the dps towers while the final person being humanoid focused on aa and spammed turrets and protectors. We managed to get through till the battlestar without losing any lives, at which point we lost three. The key to the boss battles have always been having one person having disruptor field and the other having insanely high efficiency pulse rifles. I managed to take down both of the level 43 bosses by myself using my hero when center right couldnt even scratch the hp with apocs and higgs.

Okay this map seems near impossible to beat. lol. Just got to wave 42 with 6 of the strongest terran buildings (Nuke) and still lost. With all the players pooling their money into the back guy 6 was all we could afford by wave 42 and we got completely owned by it.

The new eradicator tower seems to shoot at air but seems to not actually do any damage to them. The tooltip on their attack says air and ground and you can notice the dmg to ground units, but air seems to just fly over almost untouched even though they are just being torched by them. Dunno if it is a bug and they are suppose to only attack the ground and are bugging against air by attacking them or something is wrong and the dmg against air is almost 0. But the new tower is great. Also what would be sweet is maybe an upgrade to the lava spewer that might give bonus dmg to armor and reduced dmg to massive?

I find the new changes to sunken to very enjoyable.

One of the biggest problems i have with the map is that there is no antistuck feature. I was in a game earlier today near the end of finishing just to have a mob stuck at spawn. Now that is EXTREMELY frustrating. Perhaps some sort of /stuck command or a prod for the builders/command centre would solve the stuck issues. Thanks!

Edit: maybe some sort of upgrade to the pond or spore thinger might be a decent option.

I still see sunken lacking in terms of how much more humanoid has to offer, the lava spewer doesnt do nearly enough damage compared to the higgs, and the awakener seems useless to get.

and sunken suck against air units.

just my thoughts.

Thanks mate. and okay, I've had people tell me it may be a bug...thought i'd ask the real guy.

Also can I ask: The pulse rifle seems to do alot more damage than 15*energy. Whats the exact formula for it :0 Since I seem to do like 10k damage with 100 efficency or something o_O;

Is creep intended to slow Air aswell? Since on 1.32 it seemed to and 1.33 I think it did aswell. Not to sure...its been updating pretty quickly :P I havent kept up with the changes. I'd love to see a changelof for all the new stuff! D:

I noticed you made it so there are two different upgrades for snipers, one for armor and one for massive instead of one upgrade for both. I'm not sure what the point was since its been pretty unanimous that snipers are useless by 34, but regardless, the main reason for my post is just to state that the upgrade button does not go away after getting each one, and upgrading it a second time does nothing :p thus players might be tricked to thinking they can upgrade it again to do more damage to armor or something but this is not the case.

It seems like Left Vs Right is the most popular mode. The only real problem is that if someone leaves the game. The other team is open to both salvage their buildings, or kill them using their own units. I think if you do have a Left Vs Right option, the people have to be on different teams and not allow the share of minerals and units go to both.

I've been playing Sunken a lot recently (not your most current version) and primarily play with the colonies. I know they are likely a work in progress but they have some very crippling flaws to them atm.

1) They are TERRIBLE against air units. This is largely in part that almost everything they have only attacks ground. Towards the beginning of the game they only have like 3 units that can even hit the air, the Spore Colony, the Hydralisk, and the Spawning Pool. The Spore Colony imo is too expensive. It costs 42 minerals (6 for the spine and 36 to evolve it) and performs worse then the human's turret. You already addressed that the hydralisk is also too expensive and the spawning pool while good is very spendy for an option towards the beginning of the game and pretty much prevents you from attempting any maze for a while until you get a few of those up (or rely on humanoids to handle the air).

The biggest reason they aren't great against air compared to humans are that SO many of their units only attack ground while many human units have the ability to attack both. Snipers are a great unit to use against air and a mass of snipers can handle most air waves until late stages while only being 25 minerals. When it comes down to it Sunkens only have 3 units that attack both ground and air under 150 minerals, and the majority of them are too expensive. Sure you could reduce the cost of their AA units but imo the best (and simplest) solution to this would be to simply make Crawlers have ability to attack both. It would help encourage mazing a lot more if they could focus on it not having to worry about having to save a ton just to be able to attempt an early air wave.

2) Sunkens aren't so hot against Massive. First off they have no early means to deal with them except more spinies. The cheapest anti-massive unit the Sunkens have is 130 being the Exploder and the only other one being the Awakener, but both of these suffer from the same fate. Why on paper they seem fine but in game they perform terribly is because that they way the units are designed is the exact opposite you want for the units they are intended for. All of Sunken's anti-massive units are built to be Slow but powerful AoE attacks. The problem is...well...they are massive. Unless you use a disruptor rifle to slow them down because of their size they are too big for the AoE to affect a decent number of them. Their initial spacing due to their size keeps them too spread out. Slow but powerful AoEs work best for small units clustered together, not large units that are spread apart. This is why I think sunken aren't so great against massive, because the design of their anti-massive units are counter intuitive for what they are intended to fight.

The easiest solution for this is probably just increase the damage that these units can do against massive. Take into consideration that their splash damage against these targets won't hit as many as normal and increase it accordingly.

3) Crawlers are terrible at the beginning and the end. Crawlers aren't that hot until you can build a small maze and they don't do enough damage to higher end units, even when upgraded. You talked about the first one a little where at the were decent beginning but awesome midgame so you reduced their damage but then they became like they are now. The solution to this one imo is rather simple and will make Sunkens a lot more fun to play. Reduce their cost. Even if you have to reduce their power, reduce their cost. You might even go as far as reducing their cost to one mineral and reducing the power to match (as long as you keep the Damage per Second per Mineral the same) but it will do something that sunkens desperately need, it will let them build their maze faster. It's sad when Humans can build their mazes faster because all they just have to use the 4 mineral bunker while Sunken's cheapest unit is 6. Not only that there's little down side to it since the Crawlers can stack on top of each other too meaning that their midgame potential isn't lost either since all you have to do to get them to around the same power they were previously is build 6 of them on top of each other.

To make them viable at higher levels you probably just need to introduce more upgrades to the crawlers. Maybe reduce the cost and damage of the current Spore, Exploder, and Electrocutor (and increase the range on the electrocutor, by the time the tenticle has moved to attack the target it's practically out of range D:). Introduce a few new evolution types like maybe a Colony that specializes against Light that pokes really fast and has 2 tenticles that can attack multiple targets at once (like the Goliath can in the campaign with that upgrade except not exclusive to Ground + Air only obv.(assuming that's possible)) or a colony that doesn't necessarily do a lot of damage but slows enemies maybe having it latch onto the enemy and have it drain it's HP while slowing it.

Then with their Reduced costs it allows you to create an upgrades for those upgrades. Maybe have the upgraded exploder have extra range to its explosion and the spore colony turn into a spire that does increased damage AND forces the air units to navigate around it ect....Keep in mind the amount of minerals it will take to create these. It would be interesting if he spine is close to free, the first set of upgrade around 100 minerals (if you make the Spine have the ability to attack air the increased cost to the Spore should be fine and it will let you buff it to actually be a useful AA unit later). The second upgrade about 200 (total about 300) . With the final 3rd upgrade about 300 (600 total). This still doesn't quite reach the threshold of the cost for an ultimate building you mentioned (with the nuke being 1,300 iirc). Since Sunken is supposed to have a biological feel and my idea so far has been about the evolution of their units it would then be interesting if you could unburrow 2 of the fully evolved crawlers and fuse them together archon style to create an ultimate crawler. The cost would be around the right price (with it costing like 1,200) and would be an interesting twist to how the crawler/maze style sunken is played.

4) I can't really comment on much else as that's mainly my experience so far, but I can suggest an idea on your Firebat/Marine problem though. It would be interesting (to me at least) if Marines and Firebats also has the ability to receive upgrades like the ghost. Not necessarily straight up damage like the ghost, but other attributes (obviously SOME damage needs to be added to keep them viable), but I think it would be interesting if you could buy upgrades for the marine that primarily increases its attack speed (and eventually adds attacks to it if it reaches cap), and buy upgrades to the firebats that increase their range. If marines have the ability to attack faster it should be able to keep them viable for longer and a firebat with the ability to hammer an an entire line of monsters should also find uses as well.

5) It seems like the reason a lot of your things seems balanced on paper but don't work out as well in game is because of that fast but weak is generally better then slow but strong mainly because overkill happens a lot more against slow but strong and is more painful then fast but weak. For an example pretend there's a unit with 100 HP. Now if there's a unit that does 100 damage per 1 sec and another that does 25 per 1/4th sec it seems pretty balanced. Now what happens if that unit is increased to 101 HP. This is the problem, it takes the slow but strong unit 2 full seconds to kill it while the fast but weak kills it in 1.25 secs. This may not seem like much but if there's a wave of 10 of these units the slow but strong does 1010 HP worth of damage over 20 secs while the fast but weak does 1010 HP worth of damage over 12.5 secs. The fast but weak finishes more then 7 secs faster. Now I know this is an exaggerated example but given that your waves contain like 20-30 units the difference in time from overkilling does stack up making it a lot harder for slow but strong to kill as fast and effectively as fast but weak.

Creep spawning on crawlers is game breaking. Just played a game that we won, as sunken, because of it. Being able to spread it to human towers for very cheap and the slow affecting air makes 34, 37 and 42 trivial. I even killed the boss at 43 in 5 secs, even though you added an attack. Saved the replay if you are interested in seeing the change in action. Get in touch with me at [email protected] if you are interested.

IMO, either make it an upgrade you can purchase, or make crawlers MUCH more expensive.

EDIT: Attached the replay.

EDIT2: Not sure what it is, but somehow you can block off areas using a warren + crawlers and the mobs dont attack your wall. May want to look into it.

In respond to Dino's comment, I do not agree. I made it with ALL higgs/ion/apoc in the last area., twice. Once with ONE player building only( we send him all our minerals) and the other time I worked with the bottom player and the others went snipers (which could barely down a mob or 2 after wave35).

Just think : the face time of each tower would be the amount of time it takes to pass by ONE player base anyways, thus there is minimal amount of time in terms of where you put them.

However, spreading them across the base would be a wise idea as you don't "waste" the nukes overkilling mobs.

The biggest failure I see would be either people do not get higgs early enough, or the team doesn't work together.