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First off, awesome map - so addicted I can't do anything else but play it. Been checking out these posts to help me through the tier 2 levels. Biggest problem is trying to afford the upgrades right after 10. Learning which units work well and other that seem not to. I made it to lvl 19 finally tonight, and then the server went down. dam so close! Finally in my last build, I've been able to hold my head up without stressing with the bunker shields. I just massed Hellions behind one row of 5 bunkers full of more hellions with a couple marines. Upgrading to lvl 3 atk really makes them better than the reapers imo. I don't have to spend any more money after lvl 9 so after lvl 10 finishes I have about 1000 minerals, upgrade bunker space in armory and then upgrade to superbunkers, and after that just mass immortals.
A couple things that I wish for, would be that the energy of bunkers would regen at the end of each level? Or maybe you could transfer the energy from one bunker to another at the front or even heal another teammates bunker if you were ok...? Don't want to make it to emo, but it might help out a bit.
The other thing is why can't you get any minerals from the nydus spawns. Sometimes you're waiting for 10 minutes for your teammates CC to die and all that time you're barely staying alive using up your bunker energy, then when the actual level comes you die, be nice to be able to benefit from that kind of delay?
I hate doing it, but if my teammate is going down I ask him to send me his minerals before he quits... those little extra minerals sometimes help you get another unit or two.
Awesome map!! Can't even fathom what tier 3 would be like. (And Ferroquet I think I watched you play to lvl 20 the other day - thanks for the inspiration to see that it can be done!)
Breaks over. Time to work out some things to help the transition and the Team abilities. Also gonna fix up some T2 balance and hopefully make the boss glitch free.
If the tier 2 transition is causing difficulties for people seeing it for the first time, maybe the gap between levels 10 and 11 could have an even lengthier countdown than it does now (with a "Ready" button like before wave 1, so all players can skip it if they wish)? That way, players will actually get a chance to read over some of the tooltips and spend the sudden influx of cash they have in the bank.
I didn't have a problem with the transition myself, but that's because I had already played with the T2 features in the pre-T2 builds that stopped after 10 - and there were still a few things I didn't notice until a few levels into T2, like the supply drop from the Orbital Command. Because of the nydus spawns filling the gaps, T2 feels like one continuous wave after another, and there isn't much time for players to read the tooltips and plan ahead if they don't already know what their options are.
In all seriousness, though, like tordecybombo said below... take a break if you need it. This is already by far the most polished UMS map in the beta, and the editor's only been out a month.
I love this map and really appreciate all the hard work you're putting into it!
T2 - very fun. gotten to lvl 20 about 5 times now. never tho when noobs die at 11.
The transition to T2 seems a bit rough for people. I've been using 2 of the protoss cannons upgraded and 3 super bunkers, 1 missile turret upgraded and immortals. make it to 20 w/ no prob. Can't quite figure out what to do after the big overlord thing runs out of health. Tried to shoot him down but he keeps running to an inaccessible area. After all the mobs are dead, there's nothing and have to exit out.
As note to all EU players, currently there is one version up of 0.25, but this version got los of bugs etc.
Im publishing 0.25 again, when stable version is ready. If we dont get one before next sunday/saturday, i will publish currently newest version. You can always dl still the map from here at the site, and play it trought your map editor(dl map->editor->test map)
80 out of 100 hours? Damn that's a lot of dedication. I think you should take a break. Map making really does takes a lot out of you.
I can tell you spent a lot of time on it because compared all the "popular" maps out there (yea I know it's a flawed system), I think your map is one of the best designed. Even though it's far from complete, it still feels more fleshed out than all those other maps.
In fact, I encourage you to take a break. You deserved it after working so hard. Unless you're like me and want to squeeze out some big update before the end of beta. After June 7th, I'm prob gonna take a looong break from map making until I hear news about the next phase of beta.
thanks dude. The tier 2 ending is there, but its very very rough at the moment. If you went that strat, im guessing you took the scope upgrade to handle air.
I worked on the tier 2 waves for like the last 80 out of 100 hours of my life. So I'm feeling a bit worn out at the moment. Starting tommorow I'll be tuning some of the balance and transition issues, as well as fleshing out the boss and putting in some team abilities to protect against bad players or even your own waves if you start to suffer.
Since it's still alpha, I dont want the game to end if someone lets the center die. In the future of course it will, but for now its simply cosmetic.
I had a mix of reapers, siege tanks, and immortals. Mostly immortals in the 6 super bunkers I had. Immortals w/ full upgrades made it a lot easier, especially against the muta and broodlord levels.
Also, is the whole team supposed to be defeated when the comm tower dies? So far nothing important really happens when it dies.
Other than that, fantastic map. Looking forward to tier 2 ending and tier 3! :]
Im gonna spend the next week fleshing out of tier 2 mechanics and putting in team abilities and controls and a proper temporary ending. I just wanted to get it out there because there was only so much balancing I could do on my own. Tier 3 shouldnt be that far away, hell i havent even spent a month on this total. I know tier 2 is pretty rough at the moment, but over the next week I hope to clean it up quite a bit.
Just got to level 20 with reapers and immortals in bunkers with full upgrades, and no cannons. At the end of level 20 when the overlords died, and the timer reached 0:00, there were still a number of the large green spawning circles spinning around in various locations, and the game stopped there - no message or anything. Is that how the current build (v. 0.32) is supposed to end?
I guess we won't see tier 3 for another two months at least, but I'm looking forward to it.
Tier 2 is supposed to be a good deal harder. You cant just set up a wall and chill out. You are forced to use certain abilties smartly to keep up.
That nydus never spawning again is some sort of glitch. THere are a few glitches in the latest version atm, so ill be working on those. What player were you?
Photons may need a nerf, I'll see how it goes. 4 bunkers full of reapers sounds like a strong strat, with immortals? sounds like my basic test run.
As for killing the nyduses. If they spawn close and theres no wave running, or even if there is and you can just handle it, you get lucky and you can take it out. If they spawn far away and you wanna kill it still, thats what tanks are for. Tanks parked right behind bunkers work very well. THey rarely get hit, and their min range is place right at the bunker melee area. win win.
Some levels spawn more enemies than others. Every level roughly gives the same total bounty, they are just different styles. Sometimes slower chunky mobs, sometimes a shit load of vikings. The first couple of air levels, I have them spawn just a few amount.
Balancing the difficulty and energy costs of bunkers is gonna be a trick. THe wandering overlord is also gonna be fixed soon.
Ive made the costs of things so that you can rather easily get 3 different tech units, depending on what you need. INfested marines offer super mobility and lots of burst. They also work well for nyduses far away. Medivacs are very helpful for overall defense and keeping up your tanks ad stuff if they are hurting.
Played it again, version .32. I used 6 bunkers this time, and 4 photon cannons. I was never in any danger of dying.
They were placed Bunker - Cannon - Bunker - Cannon - Bunker, with the same underneath. Since Bunkers are 3x3 and Cannons are 2x2 I placed them so that no enemies would attack the Cannons (There is one grid square above Cannons.)
The bottom middle cannon had 5 Stalkers, and all other bunkers had 4 Immortals and 1 Marauder. I killed all my T1 Units for supply around wave 13.
I don't see what's hard about the Nydus worms. The cannons kill them instantly, and they give you free money. The only annoying part is if they spawn out of range of all your buildings, and you have to let them timer die off.
I also saved 1k Minerals from T1, so I did have a leg up during the first Wave, but I don't think it matters. Super Bunkers with a single unit in them will draw the fire of enemies, and the cannons are enough to kill every single wave if left unmolested. I don't think that cannons are too strong, because when I played with just Immortals it was the same thing. I haven't tried Siege Tanks or Reapers yet. (I always kill my first group of free reapers, since they waste bunker space with their short range)
The only "hard" wave is Broodlords, as the single bunker with anti-air is not strong enough to kill the entire wave without taking heavy damage. You can abuse the enemy AI by leaving damaged bunkers empty and putting all your units in a new bunker. When I tried Broodlords again with 2 T2 armor, they were easy.
This is crazy hard now. I'm currently on wave 14(actually playing while I'm writing this since ally died and his spawns are at his base) with 6 Super Bunkers full of 6 Reapers each and two empty bunkers. Wave 11 came pretty fast. I decided to go the safe way and just pump Reapers into super bunkers. I put my marines in front of the bunkers as fodder so I wouldn't have to make more supply. Reapers 3 supply each? Ouch.
Some problems I see if that since there's always a Nydus, units outside of bunkers arn't very attractive. For instance I see a Siege Tank. I wonder how you would use this unit. There's no where you can safely siege it.
There's no real "Line of Defense" like in T1. The whole game now seems to be about your Bunkers energy usage. Keeping the shield up constantly seems to be better than healing since it's only 1500HP now rather then 100% heal. But in doing that you don't ever have the energy for a heal when you get slowly worn down. Also using the Neurotoxin ability which is a must drains more energy. Just bouncing the spawns back and forth seems to be the way to go. I even ended up making more empty bunkers just to use Shield/Neuro to give my Bunkers full of Reapers time to recover. It's more cost effective than making more reapers because once a Bunker is at 0 Energy it is essentially useless. It won't survive long if being attacked and won't help other bunkers survive.
I didn't get to test out the Photon Cannons. I guess I'll try that next.
All in all I don't know if it's to hard yet. But at first glance it seems that way. The constant pressure is tough to deal with. I don't feel like I have any options.
EDIT:
I alt-tabbed back in an continued the game. The Nydus stopped spawning while I was typing up the above post. So I played the rest of the game with no Nydus.
I built 3 Photon Cannons and 3 Missile Turrets. I used my Bunkers in the back to Taunt the spawns to the back of my bunker line. I didn't even have to use shield. I just switched between 3 bunkers. The reason it worked so well is because on the Air+Ground spawns there are or appear to be fewer spawns. So your never dealing with a mass swarm like in T1. Beat wave 20(stuck in limbo though). Overlord wondering off was solved by taunting it.
With Bunkers and reapers this was hard. With Photon cannons + Turrets + Bunkers for Taunt this was easy. I think Photon Cannons are as good or better than the old T1 Turrets before their endless nerfs.
Keeping in mind I didn't have to deal with the Nydus.
4 super bunkers in a line, with 3 reapers, 2 rines, 1 marauder each.
about 15 useless left-over marauders outside.
4 maxxed out T1 turrets.
upgraded reapers deep wounds.
died on wave 1 of T2 before i could buy anything else.
Overlord bug should be fixed. It's very tricky to test because skipping to that part while testing has some other odd side effects. What Az was saying about 2 bunkers easily covering him doesnt sound right. Perhaps the game was hosted on a lower handi cap or something. The latest patch 100% messed up my variants irreversibly is seems, as I've remade them 3 times and they are stuck as Other/Other and the colors are showing up very strangly.
If you have 2 rax from tier 1 its not so bad. I have reduced the cost greatly on teching to different types. For air you basically have to pick: infested marines, turrets, stalkers, or the upgrade.
The range comment is pretty interesting. The online published version may be somewhat glitched because I happend to upload it the same time as a patch came out. With both bunker upgrades, they can hold 10. That sure is quite a bit. Photon cannon range may be a bit too high, but the other units at least in my experiance have no problem reaching enemies when moved around correctly. Stalkers not being able to do stuff in bunkers is supposed to be part of their drawback.
The overlord is supposed to slowly die while the waves are coming, but he shouldnt move when attacked, ill fix that asap. I havent been able to run any decent tests online because of this god damn variant bug. Im stuck here publishing over and over again trying to fix it, because theres no way to know if its fixed until i create it online.
my first time i had 4 bunkers with marines and reapers, and 4 photons, and i was barely surviving... theres no way you did that with just tier 1 units and 2 photon cannons
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Posted Jun 3, 2010First off, awesome map - so addicted I can't do anything else but play it. Been checking out these posts to help me through the tier 2 levels. Biggest problem is trying to afford the upgrades right after 10. Learning which units work well and other that seem not to. I made it to lvl 19 finally tonight, and then the server went down. dam so close! Finally in my last build, I've been able to hold my head up without stressing with the bunker shields. I just massed Hellions behind one row of 5 bunkers full of more hellions with a couple marines. Upgrading to lvl 3 atk really makes them better than the reapers imo. I don't have to spend any more money after lvl 9 so after lvl 10 finishes I have about 1000 minerals, upgrade bunker space in armory and then upgrade to superbunkers, and after that just mass immortals.
A couple things that I wish for, would be that the energy of bunkers would regen at the end of each level? Or maybe you could transfer the energy from one bunker to another at the front or even heal another teammates bunker if you were ok...? Don't want to make it to emo, but it might help out a bit.
The other thing is why can't you get any minerals from the nydus spawns. Sometimes you're waiting for 10 minutes for your teammates CC to die and all that time you're barely staying alive using up your bunker energy, then when the actual level comes you die, be nice to be able to benefit from that kind of delay?
I hate doing it, but if my teammate is going down I ask him to send me his minerals before he quits... those little extra minerals sometimes help you get another unit or two.
Awesome map!! Can't even fathom what tier 3 would be like. (And Ferroquet I think I watched you play to lvl 20 the other day - thanks for the inspiration to see that it can be done!)
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Posted Jun 3, 2010heh thanks.
Breaks over. Time to work out some things to help the transition and the Team abilities. Also gonna fix up some T2 balance and hopefully make the boss glitch free.
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Posted Jun 3, 2010If the tier 2 transition is causing difficulties for people seeing it for the first time, maybe the gap between levels 10 and 11 could have an even lengthier countdown than it does now (with a "Ready" button like before wave 1, so all players can skip it if they wish)? That way, players will actually get a chance to read over some of the tooltips and spend the sudden influx of cash they have in the bank.
I didn't have a problem with the transition myself, but that's because I had already played with the T2 features in the pre-T2 builds that stopped after 10 - and there were still a few things I didn't notice until a few levels into T2, like the supply drop from the Orbital Command. Because of the nydus spawns filling the gaps, T2 feels like one continuous wave after another, and there isn't much time for players to read the tooltips and plan ahead if they don't already know what their options are.
In all seriousness, though, like tordecybombo said below... take a break if you need it. This is already by far the most polished UMS map in the beta, and the editor's only been out a month.
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Posted Jun 3, 2010I love this map and really appreciate all the hard work you're putting into it! T2 - very fun. gotten to lvl 20 about 5 times now. never tho when noobs die at 11. The transition to T2 seems a bit rough for people. I've been using 2 of the protoss cannons upgraded and 3 super bunkers, 1 missile turret upgraded and immortals. make it to 20 w/ no prob. Can't quite figure out what to do after the big overlord thing runs out of health. Tried to shoot him down but he keeps running to an inaccessible area. After all the mobs are dead, there's nothing and have to exit out.
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Posted Jun 3, 2010As note to all EU players, currently there is one version up of 0.25, but this version got los of bugs etc.
Im publishing 0.25 again, when stable version is ready. If we dont get one before next sunday/saturday, i will publish currently newest version. You can always dl still the map from here at the site, and play it trought your map editor(dl map->editor->test map)
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Posted Jun 3, 2010Yeah, thats been the thing keeping me going. I hope to have a update out before the beta closes with alot of balance and bug fixes!
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Posted Jun 2, 201080 out of 100 hours? Damn that's a lot of dedication. I think you should take a break. Map making really does takes a lot out of you.
I can tell you spent a lot of time on it because compared all the "popular" maps out there (yea I know it's a flawed system), I think your map is one of the best designed. Even though it's far from complete, it still feels more fleshed out than all those other maps.
In fact, I encourage you to take a break. You deserved it after working so hard. Unless you're like me and want to squeeze out some big update before the end of beta. After June 7th, I'm prob gonna take a looong break from map making until I hear news about the next phase of beta.
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Posted Jun 2, 2010thanks dude. The tier 2 ending is there, but its very very rough at the moment. If you went that strat, im guessing you took the scope upgrade to handle air.
I worked on the tier 2 waves for like the last 80 out of 100 hours of my life. So I'm feeling a bit worn out at the moment. Starting tommorow I'll be tuning some of the balance and transition issues, as well as fleshing out the boss and putting in some team abilities to protect against bad players or even your own waves if you start to suffer.
Since it's still alpha, I dont want the game to end if someone lets the center die. In the future of course it will, but for now its simply cosmetic.
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Posted Jun 2, 2010Just got to wave 20.
I had a mix of reapers, siege tanks, and immortals. Mostly immortals in the 6 super bunkers I had. Immortals w/ full upgrades made it a lot easier, especially against the muta and broodlord levels.
Also, is the whole team supposed to be defeated when the comm tower dies? So far nothing important really happens when it dies.
Other than that, fantastic map. Looking forward to tier 2 ending and tier 3! :]
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Posted Jun 2, 2010Im gonna spend the next week fleshing out of tier 2 mechanics and putting in team abilities and controls and a proper temporary ending. I just wanted to get it out there because there was only so much balancing I could do on my own. Tier 3 shouldnt be that far away, hell i havent even spent a month on this total. I know tier 2 is pretty rough at the moment, but over the next week I hope to clean it up quite a bit.
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Posted Jun 2, 2010Just got to level 20 with reapers and immortals in bunkers with full upgrades, and no cannons. At the end of level 20 when the overlords died, and the timer reached 0:00, there were still a number of the large green spawning circles spinning around in various locations, and the game stopped there - no message or anything. Is that how the current build (v. 0.32) is supposed to end?
I guess we won't see tier 3 for another two months at least, but I'm looking forward to it.
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Posted Jun 2, 2010Tier 2 is supposed to be a good deal harder. You cant just set up a wall and chill out. You are forced to use certain abilties smartly to keep up.
That nydus never spawning again is some sort of glitch. THere are a few glitches in the latest version atm, so ill be working on those. What player were you?
Photons may need a nerf, I'll see how it goes. 4 bunkers full of reapers sounds like a strong strat, with immortals? sounds like my basic test run.
As for killing the nyduses. If they spawn close and theres no wave running, or even if there is and you can just handle it, you get lucky and you can take it out. If they spawn far away and you wanna kill it still, thats what tanks are for. Tanks parked right behind bunkers work very well. THey rarely get hit, and their min range is place right at the bunker melee area. win win.
Some levels spawn more enemies than others. Every level roughly gives the same total bounty, they are just different styles. Sometimes slower chunky mobs, sometimes a shit load of vikings. The first couple of air levels, I have them spawn just a few amount.
Balancing the difficulty and energy costs of bunkers is gonna be a trick. THe wandering overlord is also gonna be fixed soon.
Ive made the costs of things so that you can rather easily get 3 different tech units, depending on what you need. INfested marines offer super mobility and lots of burst. They also work well for nyduses far away. Medivacs are very helpful for overall defense and keeping up your tanks ad stuff if they are hurting.
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Posted Jun 2, 2010I believe that there is new version after the one i released EU?
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Posted Jun 1, 2010Played it again, version .32. I used 6 bunkers this time, and 4 photon cannons. I was never in any danger of dying.
They were placed Bunker - Cannon - Bunker - Cannon - Bunker, with the same underneath. Since Bunkers are 3x3 and Cannons are 2x2 I placed them so that no enemies would attack the Cannons (There is one grid square above Cannons.)
The bottom middle cannon had 5 Stalkers, and all other bunkers had 4 Immortals and 1 Marauder. I killed all my T1 Units for supply around wave 13.
I don't see what's hard about the Nydus worms. The cannons kill them instantly, and they give you free money. The only annoying part is if they spawn out of range of all your buildings, and you have to let them timer die off.
I also saved 1k Minerals from T1, so I did have a leg up during the first Wave, but I don't think it matters. Super Bunkers with a single unit in them will draw the fire of enemies, and the cannons are enough to kill every single wave if left unmolested. I don't think that cannons are too strong, because when I played with just Immortals it was the same thing. I haven't tried Siege Tanks or Reapers yet. (I always kill my first group of free reapers, since they waste bunker space with their short range)
The only "hard" wave is Broodlords, as the single bunker with anti-air is not strong enough to kill the entire wave without taking heavy damage. You can abuse the enemy AI by leaving damaged bunkers empty and putting all your units in a new bunker. When I tried Broodlords again with 2 T2 armor, they were easy.
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Posted Jun 1, 2010This is crazy hard now. I'm currently on wave 14(actually playing while I'm writing this since ally died and his spawns are at his base) with 6 Super Bunkers full of 6 Reapers each and two empty bunkers. Wave 11 came pretty fast. I decided to go the safe way and just pump Reapers into super bunkers. I put my marines in front of the bunkers as fodder so I wouldn't have to make more supply. Reapers 3 supply each? Ouch.
Some problems I see if that since there's always a Nydus, units outside of bunkers arn't very attractive. For instance I see a Siege Tank. I wonder how you would use this unit. There's no where you can safely siege it.
There's no real "Line of Defense" like in T1. The whole game now seems to be about your Bunkers energy usage. Keeping the shield up constantly seems to be better than healing since it's only 1500HP now rather then 100% heal. But in doing that you don't ever have the energy for a heal when you get slowly worn down. Also using the Neurotoxin ability which is a must drains more energy. Just bouncing the spawns back and forth seems to be the way to go. I even ended up making more empty bunkers just to use Shield/Neuro to give my Bunkers full of Reapers time to recover. It's more cost effective than making more reapers because once a Bunker is at 0 Energy it is essentially useless. It won't survive long if being attacked and won't help other bunkers survive.
I didn't get to test out the Photon Cannons. I guess I'll try that next.
All in all I don't know if it's to hard yet. But at first glance it seems that way. The constant pressure is tough to deal with. I don't feel like I have any options.
EDIT:
I alt-tabbed back in an continued the game. The Nydus stopped spawning while I was typing up the above post. So I played the rest of the game with no Nydus.
I built 3 Photon Cannons and 3 Missile Turrets. I used my Bunkers in the back to Taunt the spawns to the back of my bunker line. I didn't even have to use shield. I just switched between 3 bunkers. The reason it worked so well is because on the Air+Ground spawns there are or appear to be fewer spawns. So your never dealing with a mass swarm like in T1. Beat wave 20(stuck in limbo though). Overlord wondering off was solved by taunting it.
With Bunkers and reapers this was hard. With Photon cannons + Turrets + Bunkers for Taunt this was easy. I think Photon Cannons are as good or better than the old T1 Turrets before their endless nerfs.
Keeping in mind I didn't have to deal with the Nydus.
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Posted Jun 1, 2010When T2 started:
4 super bunkers in a line, with 3 reapers, 2 rines, 1 marauder each. about 15 useless left-over marauders outside. 4 maxxed out T1 turrets. upgraded reapers deep wounds.
died on wave 1 of T2 before i could buy anything else.
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Posted Jun 1, 2010Overlord bug should be fixed. It's very tricky to test because skipping to that part while testing has some other odd side effects. What Az was saying about 2 bunkers easily covering him doesnt sound right. Perhaps the game was hosted on a lower handi cap or something. The latest patch 100% messed up my variants irreversibly is seems, as I've remade them 3 times and they are stuck as Other/Other and the colors are showing up very strangly.
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Posted Jun 1, 2010Do you want the replay?
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Posted Jun 1, 2010If you have 2 rax from tier 1 its not so bad. I have reduced the cost greatly on teching to different types. For air you basically have to pick: infested marines, turrets, stalkers, or the upgrade.
The range comment is pretty interesting. The online published version may be somewhat glitched because I happend to upload it the same time as a patch came out. With both bunker upgrades, they can hold 10. That sure is quite a bit. Photon cannon range may be a bit too high, but the other units at least in my experiance have no problem reaching enemies when moved around correctly. Stalkers not being able to do stuff in bunkers is supposed to be part of their drawback.
The overlord is supposed to slowly die while the waves are coming, but he shouldnt move when attacked, ill fix that asap. I havent been able to run any decent tests online because of this god damn variant bug. Im stuck here publishing over and over again trying to fix it, because theres no way to know if its fixed until i create it online.
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Posted Jun 1, 2010my first time i had 4 bunkers with marines and reapers, and 4 photons, and i was barely surviving... theres no way you did that with just tier 1 units and 2 photon cannons