I don't see why you're still debating about this... The answer is pretty simple, EVERYONE implicated in a project has to be credited for his work. The only thing that will change is the title given to the guy, which depends on how much he was implicated in this project.
It's as simple as that, and it was actually stated in the first page. The guy who came up with the idea, and did nothing more, is the concept writer. The title he deserves changes with the tasks he does in the project, so the concept writer could also be the game designer, if he keeps improving the game and discuss with the team on what the project will become (or not). It's REALLY only a matter of role(s) you play in the creation process, but anyway EVERYONE deserves a title. That's why you can see the Marketing team credited in various retail games: they don't take part in the process of creating the game but they had their role anyway, so they are in the credits. That's also why you can read someone's name multiple times, if he had multiple roles. Really, it's as simple as that.
Seriously guys, there is no need to debate about this. Credits are due to anyone, period. If you use any level editor, you'll credit the authors. If you share your map on SC2Mapster, you'll credit the community. If someone gave you the main idea of your map, you'll credit him... And I personally also like to thank people who helped me when I got stuck, my maps wouldn't exist if they weren't here to help! ;)
This reminds me of that Sins of a Solar Empire game.
I had the exact same thought. :)
The main difference here being that you can travel freely between each solar system (or so I guess, from what I've seen in the videos). This is something I disliked in Solar Empire, I'm glad it doesn't happen here. Even quick matches in Solar Empire are very (and I mean VEEEEEEEERY) long, I remember a few random maps which took several days to finish (against only one AI!). I don't even want to know how it was in multiplayer...
Hookah, do you plan on adding a hostile faction, like pirates? There was a faction in Solar Empire which was a group of pirates, owning only one planet but with a very strong army and a very high production rate. The more you paid them, the least they wanted to attack you. If you had enough income, you could bribe them and they would eventually go with their entire fleet against the player(s) who didn't pay them enough. You should check for that game, there are really interesting features you can get inspiration from if you're looking for ideas of improvements.
Edit: Coming up with an idea does not make you a "designer" per se.
Quoted for truth. Actually, I could have quoted everything EternalWraith said because he's completely right. Everyone taking part in a project (including coming up with the concept of a map) is part of the team, therefore can be in the credits list. You just have to ask. The only thing that will change, depending on how much you were implied in the production process, is the title you deserve. If you just give the idea and let people do whatever they want out of it, the best title you'll have is "concept writer" or something very similar (as opposed to "concept artists", if you already built a few parts of the map)... It's only a matter of names and titles.
Please, no hero... I kind of like the idea of your map but I think adding a hero is a wrong move here. I agree that more than 2 players controlling the same base can be really interesting. The name seems to fit.
About possible improvements, I'm not sure if it will be of any help, but maybe you can deny the control of a unit/building to player B, if player A already has the unit/building selected. This way, someone having the same idea as another player at the same time won't screw with the other player actions. This could be really important in case of a battle, or managing the probes/drones/SCVs when you need them to flee from base, or even controlling the units training without having a unit trained twice.
Seriously, I'm in the top 3 with just 79 points?
Last time I checked the topic, EternalWraith was everywhere... I know you reset the rankings but why wasn't his (or whoever made it to the top 10) best score kept?
Well, anyway, constructive review now... At first sight this game is really geeky. Using Windows elements and logic gates as enemies, that just made me laugh... About the gameplay itself, I wasn't fond of the mouse control at first but after a few games I think that's best: it's smooth and you really control accurately where you want to be and what you want to aim at. I still get confused very often by which color I am shooting, and which color should I use to get rid of this enemy, or that one... especially when there are many of them on screen or one is going straight at you. I think I reached level 3 and started screwing things up at this time, cause I couldn't think clearly which one to shoot or not. Maybe just adding the name of the enemy type over its shape could help. And you should show the color of the shoot over the shape of our... err... "thing". That would be much quicker than having to check in the upper bar which color is selected. Oh, and yes, please find a better music.
It's not only a matter of mappers not doing funny maps. The main problem in my opinion is that SC2 players only like gameplays which are pretty close to the original game (they especially fancy melee). As soon as you do a game following its own gameplay rules, even simple ones, most SC2 players are kind of lost. They only get used to it if the goal of your game is to select a unit and rush against the others. Pretty much what the melee is about. Pretty much what Star Battle, DotA, Marine Arena, and a few other popular maps are about...
It doesn't mean these maps are good (I personally got bored of Star Battle after 10 games or something), but SC2 players like them because A- these are on the first pages, and B- the gameplay is pretty much all about control units + attack, which is how they play in melee. Modify the rules just by adding custom teams, each with a custom power, and they're completely lost and don't know what to do. This is why Phantom is a good map but still not very popular. This is why Jurassic Park, Pictionary, NotD, and many, many other really well-made maps are not popular. They were still made by mappers from completely different backgrounds and levels.
And I have to agree with Soga, "I really don't think mapmakers care that much about their map being "popular", they care more about it being VISIBLE and READILY PLAYABLE."... Our maps can't get very popular if we can't even find players to test them and give us feedback afterwards.
Ugh...
Must... resist... the need... to answer... to you all!
@ anyone saying they never saw that themselves:
I'm not sure why the players I went against were so stupid, I don't think it's related to the time of the day because I played during the whole afternoon... I have to admit my skills that day were pretty lame though, 3-4 games won (out of 20) is obviously a very, very bad day. I didn't expect that, especially considering I won every single match in the last few days, right before reaching the end of the Training league.
@ anyone giving strategies to counter rushes:
Actually, I do know how to protect my main base quite efficiently now (that's the reason why I did the Training league entirely, the progress made since my first games is more than obvious)... I know how to counter early harass (fast reapers and such), trying to scout sometimes too, learning when to attack and/or expand, and I'm slowly learning how to hit&run and hit&attack efficiently... What pisses me off though, is that they ALWAYS rush and this is getting seriously boring. If for any reason you were just a bit too late, or your wall is not well protected against the first rush, you lose against some stupid player who just want to win the game to climb the ladder. If you manage to get rid of his units, you're pretty sure to win the game because he doesn't know how to play if it fails. How is that even funny?
As Tigerija said, and I completely agree with him, rushing is not fun for me. I don't like to be rushed, so I obviously don't like to rush either because I know how frustrating it is for the guy being attacked. I'd rather play it fair because it helps everyone improving their strategies, BOs, micro/macro, skills/APMs, etc... There is no point in rushing, especially in bronze, the only thing you'll learn is to control a few units and kill probes/drones/SCVs in a minute. Wow. So funny. I don't like cheesing either but I do admit it can help SOMETIMES, if used cleverly and not spending the whole game on this.
It seems like rushing is even more frequent in 2v2 (or more) because they just focus on a player in order to win. Somehow, I feel really sorry for them, their life must be pathetic if their only consolation in life is to "pwn sum noobz" instead of having fun in a game... Smells like they're taking revenge in the game for their shitty lives or something like that... I pity them, for real.
...Anyway, if I could, I would play games only with friends as Tigerija suggested. But I don't have that much friends to play with, most of them are diamond, or gold in the worst case. I don't think my BOs are that bad actually, I know I lose my units pretty easily though because my micro is still lame... but it's not worth being flamed, I'm sure of it. I did report and/or block the players who pissed me off but it's just getting on my nerves, I don't want to spend my time playing this game just to be flamed pointlessly for any mistake I could make. I have other things to do than spend my time on a game, especially if it means I'll have to justify my actions to a stupid kid with no future each time I play...
@ Gorandor: You made me laugh. In a good way, I mean. :)
@ Fushoo: Don't get me wrong, cheesing or rushing doesn't make you a jerk. I call "jerks" those who keep flaming players when they lost the game... as if they were playing their life or something... I fear there are a lot of diamond players who are diamond just because they keep rushing in every game. It does not show their skills at all, this is why I enjoy (a lot) when they come across a smarter player that just outrun them in a blink and they ragequit. They still don't learn anything out of this, and that's a shame IMO...
I know this thread is just a wall of text about me whining, but I need to get it out. I just did all the melee matches required to be in a division (for each mode), and from what I saw it looks like most players are just complete jerks... During the 20 matches needed, I've been insulted for my pseudonym (seriously? WTF...), been rushed almost 90% of the time (or cheesed, or had to rush with my team), some of them even flaming me AFTER the match and playing tough with me (yeah, thanks Blizzard, your chat system is soooo helpful here!).
Before I waste my time on this, can anyone here tell me if it's always that way in melee? Because as far as I can tell, I haven't spent a single match without being insulted... Oh wait, my bad... I won 3 or 4 games, they were pretty good actually! I thought bronze players were playing fair, mostly here to have fun, but I guess I was completely wrong. Even in 1v1, they just rush like crazy. The only few team games where I asked them not to rush, we won and the game was much more interesting.
Duh, I seriously get sick of this... Melee games are filled with dumb guys who believe rushing is the only strategy (me gotz a club, me hits enemiz! hoogah!). I'm starting to understand why people only play custom maps where the goal is to attack blindly (ie. Star Battle, DotA, TDs, Nexus war...). Is that even worth spending our time making maps for these complete jerks?...
Blah, I'm not even sure I like SC2 anymore... I like making maps and all, but if it's just to make maps that won't get popular because our players are idiots, I'm not sure it's worth... Hopefully, the SC2Mapster community is much more interested in the various projects we have here, but it's still hard as hell to find players who would love to join or host our games...
You're free to open a new thread about custom games replays but that's not my point here... Besides, if everyone starts sharing their replays of custom maps, you have to consider regions: A few maps are only in EU (or NA or whatever), which means we can't see the replay if the map is not available in our region. I'm not against sharing a few replays of custom games, but not for now. I'd rather wait, and see how this thread goes, before thinking about switching to custom games.
Well, I guess I should start by uploading one of my own replays... One of my latest game in 1v1 in Novice Kulas Ravine (damn these rocks...). I went very, very greedy right from the start, which helped a lot, but why do people keep fighting when it is sooooo obvious they lost?
I was just thinking it would be funny/interesting to share a few replays of our melee games here. The goal is not really to show off (leave that to websites already sharing pro replays by hundreds), but rather share games where something unusual happened to you while playing (unexpected build order that works/sucks, flawless micro/macro, epic fail/win in 4 minutes, your worth/best game ever, winning with mass ravens, great WTF moment,...).
I'm still in the training league personally (actually, 6 matches left and I think I'll be bronze) so I'm not a pro or anything, but I think there are a few games I could show, because they were not that bad... or were funny to watch (I love when the guy fights to the death for 40 minutes without any strategy and... ragequit!). The only requirement is to share a MELEE replay (preferably when you were playing, not spectating). We shouldn't spam with custom games (ie. scenarios, minigames and such), because it forces people to download the maps if they don't have them or don't want them.
I think it could be a great way to get better in melee too, if you're as much of a noob as I am you could share a few games and ask people how to improve... What do you think, do you have any funny replays ready to be shared? :)
I tested the map twice yesterday... I expected to die miserably in the first try. It happened so fast I wasn't able to understand what to do... I didn't have the time to read the info about the various abilities my unit class had, there were already 5 units on me. Second attempt, with a bit more people, we managed to last a little bit longer... but losing anyone in the team almost instantly means we're doomed. We pretty much can't last long as soon as we lose a player, may he quit the game or just die.
Anyway, the map looks good so far, I liked the idea of sticking together with the leader in order to survive, and there is a true challenge that makes it worth spending time. But I have to agree though, you'll absolutely need to make it more newbie-friendly, at least in the beginning so that we can choose safely which powers to learn. I assume many players won't try hundreds of time if they automatically lose within the first 2 minutes...
Another thing, about the lobby... I don't know if it was intended that way, but it seems we can't choose the class we want if someone already has it... Basically we can't have a team of snipers, that's good. But it also means you can't have the class you wanted to, if someone already took it. I know the lobby is not really permissive about this, but maybe choosing your class in the lobby wasn't the best thing to do to begin with... I would rather make my choice while the dropship is landing at the beginning, for example. Until everyone has a class selected, the camera would stay focused on the dropship. That way, you could forbid more than X number of units of class Y... People taking too long to choose a class will be set to a random class which wasn't taken yet.
0
I don't see why you're still debating about this... The answer is pretty simple, EVERYONE implicated in a project has to be credited for his work. The only thing that will change is the title given to the guy, which depends on how much he was implicated in this project.
It's as simple as that, and it was actually stated in the first page. The guy who came up with the idea, and did nothing more, is the concept writer. The title he deserves changes with the tasks he does in the project, so the concept writer could also be the game designer, if he keeps improving the game and discuss with the team on what the project will become (or not). It's REALLY only a matter of role(s) you play in the creation process, but anyway EVERYONE deserves a title. That's why you can see the Marketing team credited in various retail games: they don't take part in the process of creating the game but they had their role anyway, so they are in the credits. That's also why you can read someone's name multiple times, if he had multiple roles. Really, it's as simple as that.
Seriously guys, there is no need to debate about this. Credits are due to anyone, period. If you use any level editor, you'll credit the authors. If you share your map on SC2Mapster, you'll credit the community. If someone gave you the main idea of your map, you'll credit him... And I personally also like to thank people who helped me when I got stuck, my maps wouldn't exist if they weren't here to help! ;)
0
I had the exact same thought. :)
The main difference here being that you can travel freely between each solar system (or so I guess, from what I've seen in the videos). This is something I disliked in Solar Empire, I'm glad it doesn't happen here. Even quick matches in Solar Empire are very (and I mean VEEEEEEEERY) long, I remember a few random maps which took several days to finish (against only one AI!). I don't even want to know how it was in multiplayer...
Hookah, do you plan on adding a hostile faction, like pirates? There was a faction in Solar Empire which was a group of pirates, owning only one planet but with a very strong army and a very high production rate. The more you paid them, the least they wanted to attack you. If you had enough income, you could bribe them and they would eventually go with their entire fleet against the player(s) who didn't pay them enough. You should check for that game, there are really interesting features you can get inspiration from if you're looking for ideas of improvements.
0
Quoted for truth. Actually, I could have quoted everything EternalWraith said because he's completely right. Everyone taking part in a project (including coming up with the concept of a map) is part of the team, therefore can be in the credits list. You just have to ask. The only thing that will change, depending on how much you were implied in the production process, is the title you deserve. If you just give the idea and let people do whatever they want out of it, the best title you'll have is "concept writer" or something very similar (as opposed to "concept artists", if you already built a few parts of the map)... It's only a matter of names and titles.
0
Please, no hero... I kind of like the idea of your map but I think adding a hero is a wrong move here. I agree that more than 2 players controlling the same base can be really interesting. The name seems to fit.
About possible improvements, I'm not sure if it will be of any help, but maybe you can deny the control of a unit/building to player B, if player A already has the unit/building selected. This way, someone having the same idea as another player at the same time won't screw with the other player actions. This could be really important in case of a battle, or managing the probes/drones/SCVs when you need them to flee from base, or even controlling the units training without having a unit trained twice.
0
Seriously, I'm in the top 3 with just 79 points? Last time I checked the topic, EternalWraith was everywhere... I know you reset the rankings but why wasn't his (or whoever made it to the top 10) best score kept?
Well, anyway, constructive review now... At first sight this game is really geeky. Using Windows elements and logic gates as enemies, that just made me laugh... About the gameplay itself, I wasn't fond of the mouse control at first but after a few games I think that's best: it's smooth and you really control accurately where you want to be and what you want to aim at. I still get confused very often by which color I am shooting, and which color should I use to get rid of this enemy, or that one... especially when there are many of them on screen or one is going straight at you. I think I reached level 3 and started screwing things up at this time, cause I couldn't think clearly which one to shoot or not. Maybe just adding the name of the enemy type over its shape could help. And you should show the color of the shoot over the shape of our... err... "thing". That would be much quicker than having to check in the upper bar which color is selected. Oh, and yes, please find a better music.
0
@PhantomInfernal: Go
It's not only a matter of mappers not doing funny maps. The main problem in my opinion is that SC2 players only like gameplays which are pretty close to the original game (they especially fancy melee). As soon as you do a game following its own gameplay rules, even simple ones, most SC2 players are kind of lost. They only get used to it if the goal of your game is to select a unit and rush against the others. Pretty much what the melee is about. Pretty much what Star Battle, DotA, Marine Arena, and a few other popular maps are about...
It doesn't mean these maps are good (I personally got bored of Star Battle after 10 games or something), but SC2 players like them because A- these are on the first pages, and B- the gameplay is pretty much all about control units + attack, which is how they play in melee. Modify the rules just by adding custom teams, each with a custom power, and they're completely lost and don't know what to do. This is why Phantom is a good map but still not very popular. This is why Jurassic Park, Pictionary, NotD, and many, many other really well-made maps are not popular. They were still made by mappers from completely different backgrounds and levels.
And I have to agree with Soga, "I really don't think mapmakers care that much about their map being "popular", they care more about it being VISIBLE and READILY PLAYABLE."... Our maps can't get very popular if we can't even find players to test them and give us feedback afterwards.
0
Ugh... Must... resist... the need... to answer... to you all!
@ anyone saying they never saw that themselves: I'm not sure why the players I went against were so stupid, I don't think it's related to the time of the day because I played during the whole afternoon... I have to admit my skills that day were pretty lame though, 3-4 games won (out of 20) is obviously a very, very bad day. I didn't expect that, especially considering I won every single match in the last few days, right before reaching the end of the Training league.
@ anyone giving strategies to counter rushes: Actually, I do know how to protect my main base quite efficiently now (that's the reason why I did the Training league entirely, the progress made since my first games is more than obvious)... I know how to counter early harass (fast reapers and such), trying to scout sometimes too, learning when to attack and/or expand, and I'm slowly learning how to hit&run and hit&attack efficiently... What pisses me off though, is that they ALWAYS rush and this is getting seriously boring. If for any reason you were just a bit too late, or your wall is not well protected against the first rush, you lose against some stupid player who just want to win the game to climb the ladder. If you manage to get rid of his units, you're pretty sure to win the game because he doesn't know how to play if it fails. How is that even funny?
As Tigerija said, and I completely agree with him, rushing is not fun for me. I don't like to be rushed, so I obviously don't like to rush either because I know how frustrating it is for the guy being attacked. I'd rather play it fair because it helps everyone improving their strategies, BOs, micro/macro, skills/APMs, etc... There is no point in rushing, especially in bronze, the only thing you'll learn is to control a few units and kill probes/drones/SCVs in a minute. Wow. So funny. I don't like cheesing either but I do admit it can help SOMETIMES, if used cleverly and not spending the whole game on this.
It seems like rushing is even more frequent in 2v2 (or more) because they just focus on a player in order to win. Somehow, I feel really sorry for them, their life must be pathetic if their only consolation in life is to "pwn sum noobz" instead of having fun in a game... Smells like they're taking revenge in the game for their shitty lives or something like that... I pity them, for real.
...Anyway, if I could, I would play games only with friends as Tigerija suggested. But I don't have that much friends to play with, most of them are diamond, or gold in the worst case. I don't think my BOs are that bad actually, I know I lose my units pretty easily though because my micro is still lame... but it's not worth being flamed, I'm sure of it. I did report and/or block the players who pissed me off but it's just getting on my nerves, I don't want to spend my time playing this game just to be flamed pointlessly for any mistake I could make. I have other things to do than spend my time on a game, especially if it means I'll have to justify my actions to a stupid kid with no future each time I play...
@ Gorandor: You made me laugh. In a good way, I mean. :)
@ Fushoo: Don't get me wrong, cheesing or rushing doesn't make you a jerk. I call "jerks" those who keep flaming players when they lost the game... as if they were playing their life or something... I fear there are a lot of diamond players who are diamond just because they keep rushing in every game. It does not show their skills at all, this is why I enjoy (a lot) when they come across a smarter player that just outrun them in a blink and they ragequit. They still don't learn anything out of this, and that's a shame IMO...
0
"We require more minerals."
...That's all I have to say. :D
0
I know this thread is just a wall of text about me whining, but I need to get it out. I just did all the melee matches required to be in a division (for each mode), and from what I saw it looks like most players are just complete jerks... During the 20 matches needed, I've been insulted for my pseudonym (seriously? WTF...), been rushed almost 90% of the time (or cheesed, or had to rush with my team), some of them even flaming me AFTER the match and playing tough with me (yeah, thanks Blizzard, your chat system is soooo helpful here!).
Before I waste my time on this, can anyone here tell me if it's always that way in melee? Because as far as I can tell, I haven't spent a single match without being insulted... Oh wait, my bad... I won 3 or 4 games, they were pretty good actually! I thought bronze players were playing fair, mostly here to have fun, but I guess I was completely wrong. Even in 1v1, they just rush like crazy. The only few team games where I asked them not to rush, we won and the game was much more interesting.
Duh, I seriously get sick of this... Melee games are filled with dumb guys who believe rushing is the only strategy (me gotz a club, me hits enemiz! hoogah!). I'm starting to understand why people only play custom maps where the goal is to attack blindly (ie. Star Battle, DotA, TDs, Nexus war...). Is that even worth spending our time making maps for these complete jerks?...
Blah, I'm not even sure I like SC2 anymore... I like making maps and all, but if it's just to make maps that won't get popular because our players are idiots, I'm not sure it's worth... Hopefully, the SC2Mapster community is much more interested in the various projects we have here, but it's still hard as hell to find players who would love to join or host our games...
Me not happy. :(
0
Use "Rubber chicken with a pulley in the middle" on "Rope".
Oh wait... Wrong game.
0
Arrr, I'm late...
Dark red will do fine.
0
You're free to open a new thread about custom games replays but that's not my point here... Besides, if everyone starts sharing their replays of custom maps, you have to consider regions: A few maps are only in EU (or NA or whatever), which means we can't see the replay if the map is not available in our region. I'm not against sharing a few replays of custom games, but not for now. I'd rather wait, and see how this thread goes, before thinking about switching to custom games.
Well, I guess I should start by uploading one of my own replays... One of my latest game in 1v1 in Novice Kulas Ravine (damn these rocks...). I went very, very greedy right from the start, which helped a lot, but why do people keep fighting when it is sooooo obvious they lost?
0
I was just thinking it would be funny/interesting to share a few replays of our melee games here. The goal is not really to show off (leave that to websites already sharing pro replays by hundreds), but rather share games where something unusual happened to you while playing (unexpected build order that works/sucks, flawless micro/macro, epic fail/win in 4 minutes, your worth/best game ever, winning with mass ravens, great WTF moment,...).
I'm still in the training league personally (actually, 6 matches left and I think I'll be bronze) so I'm not a pro or anything, but I think there are a few games I could show, because they were not that bad... or were funny to watch (I love when the guy fights to the death for 40 minutes without any strategy and... ragequit!). The only requirement is to share a MELEE replay (preferably when you were playing, not spectating). We shouldn't spam with custom games (ie. scenarios, minigames and such), because it forces people to download the maps if they don't have them or don't want them.
I think it could be a great way to get better in melee too, if you're as much of a noob as I am you could share a few games and ask people how to improve... What do you think, do you have any funny replays ready to be shared? :)
0
I tested the map twice yesterday... I expected to die miserably in the first try. It happened so fast I wasn't able to understand what to do... I didn't have the time to read the info about the various abilities my unit class had, there were already 5 units on me. Second attempt, with a bit more people, we managed to last a little bit longer... but losing anyone in the team almost instantly means we're doomed. We pretty much can't last long as soon as we lose a player, may he quit the game or just die.
Anyway, the map looks good so far, I liked the idea of sticking together with the leader in order to survive, and there is a true challenge that makes it worth spending time. But I have to agree though, you'll absolutely need to make it more newbie-friendly, at least in the beginning so that we can choose safely which powers to learn. I assume many players won't try hundreds of time if they automatically lose within the first 2 minutes...
Another thing, about the lobby... I don't know if it was intended that way, but it seems we can't choose the class we want if someone already has it... Basically we can't have a team of snipers, that's good. But it also means you can't have the class you wanted to, if someone already took it. I know the lobby is not really permissive about this, but maybe choosing your class in the lobby wasn't the best thing to do to begin with... I would rather make my choice while the dropship is landing at the beginning, for example. Until everyone has a class selected, the camera would stay focused on the dropship. That way, you could forbid more than X number of units of class Y... People taking too long to choose a class will be set to a random class which wasn't taken yet.
0
...or makes you feel so dumb when you know the answer is here and you can't understand a thing of what the guy did.