Things have been moving along very nicely. If you've read the previous posts, you'll see that I mistakenly went over the map size limit by about 40MB. So what I did was rework my models and have actually ended up with my goal of 50 different units over 4 tiers with a 51st class that serves as your "main character". My entire map size is now about 9.4 MB including code and all and it's time to tune the classes.
Combat
Combat is coming along great. Lately I have pushed more towards the Fire Emblem realm, with mounted units in the higher tiers and those armor bloated Knights and Generals that I used to love. Each class has about 1 special ability on top of their normal attack. That special ability pretty much defines the class. Higher tiers have more than 1. So let's say you want a nice team of Archers to use a long distance barrage combined with a Time Mage or Chronomancer to speed them up, possibly obliterating your enemy before they reach you. Heavily armored units can supplement glass cannon mages such as a the Pyre Mage, by providing them with a defense boost just by being near them. Overall, combat is swift and units will die if they aren't taken care of. What I want, is Fire Emblem but faster play when playing multiplayer (so its less like chess). This doesn't mean the skill will be gone, if anything it's been improved beyond the rock, paper, scissor style combat I started out with. For example, depending on how you "evolve" into a Spellblade (a sword wielding 4th tier caster), he may use Light/Dark Magic, or powerful Gravity Attacks, making just that one unit very dynamic. Gameplay will be an evolution through alpha and beta, with a public release being the most transforming time.
Classes
The classes do number in the 50s, but only about 12 or so are being developed now and for the first release. These are the tier 1 units, your basic melee, ranged, and magic units from which your army feeds from. I am still wondering on how to make the general "quick gameplay mode" work. I am thinking about something like you get 12 unit "credits" and these can be used to recruit and/or upgrade your army so you can play right away and if you want, evolve that army over multiple plays. For example, you can go zergling mode and get 12 Tier 1 Soldiers, or maybe upgrade to a Dragoon(Tier 2 Lancer), a Bishop (Tier 2 Healer), and a Pyre Mage (Tier 2 Pupil). That 12 vs 3 might be more evenly matched than you would think, or not at all depending on what skills you employ.
Tier 1 Classes (In no particular order)
Soldier - Sword and Shield - Balanced
Fighter - 1Handed Axe - High Crit
Archer - Basic Ranged Unit
Lancer - 2 Handed Lance user - Can attack 2 spaces in all directions
Defender - Small Sword and Huge Shield - HUGE Defensive bonus
Monk - Fist fighter with very high HP (my favorite class, expect to see Master Monk and the healing White Monk)
Brute - A LARGE Warrior with a LARGE Mace - Good if you like to rely on luck and brute force
Thief - Specialty unit, can deal damage, but excels at movement and espionage
Ronin - 2 Handed Samurai sword user, very high damage with almost no defense
Magic Classes Tier 1
Pupil - Elemental Novice, uses a book
Acolyte - Dark Magic user, uses a book
Priest - Standard Healer, uses a book
Attached is a ss of my two soldiers after they killed two fighters. It shows the updated GUI and new grid opacity.
More to come, any feedback, tips, comments are much appreciated. Also, the website in my sig is under dev so check back soon.
Nice job on the tutorial! I need to start giving back and write a few myself.
I noticed that when I import my textures/models, I don't need to restart the SC2 Galaxy Editor.
My Steps:
1. Import TEXTURE(S) FIRST as it says above.
2. Save.
3. Import Model.
4. Save.
If you find it crashing, then stick to the OP's method. Also, if anyone is having problems staying under 10MB I'll be writing a tutorial (if one doesnt exist) on how to shrink the size of texture image files down to about 10% of their current size which is 1-2MB for Expansion 2,3 models and 256KB for Original.
@simras
The attachment points seem to be the same when dealing with models from the same expansion and this: "And for some reason I had to turn off fog of war on my equipment or it would show as very shady all the time." BUGGED ME FOR DAYS until I finally figured it out. Some units had the dark attachments and others were fine...drove me nuts. What I wanted to say to you, if you're having problems with the viewer (or even if youre not) is to download each release of the WoW Model viewer and keep them in a directory because some of the older versions will give you different models and export them differently. The newer releases are better M3 files, but they ignore the oldworld.mpq so you miss out on some models.
Well I am basically trying to do what I have been working on for years under different programming languages, mostly held back by lack of art, to create the perfect turn base strategy game. Adding elements from every great game in the genre, plus I have a bunch of other ideas so the combination should be pretty great. Plus nothing beats beta testing 9,999 levels for 50+ different units.
I heard it was in terms of total amounts, like "up to" 5 maps, and "up to" a total of 50MBs. If you're right though, then the only thing the game would lose is the medieval/steampunk doodads as the unit models are less than 8-9 MBs. I'll try to confirm.
Edit: "...increased custom map upload limits in two ways. Players are now provided with a total of 10 custom map slots and up to 50 mbs of total map storage space."
-Source
I definitely took this to mean a total of 50mbs for you to use overall, but reading the comments and other sources I see that it is indeed 10MB. Looking at the Euro servers, they have 20MB, so maybe by the time I release this, it will be higher than 10MB, but for now I'll have to resize. Such a powerful tool, with an archaic amount of memory available...I guess I can always have a "deluxe" version with as many MBs of data as I want and have that for offline play, like the campaign and training your army.
Right now I'm working hard to get a playable demo with 2 player capabilities and maybe 8-10 classes as soon as possible. (The official game will be 4 players, if I can get it running smoothly with that many people). I hope to have a demo out within 2-3 weeks, but possibly before then.
Minor Update
Map Size Issues
The main issue is add-on models and model textures. Out of the 50 classes, only about 5 classes use SC2 models and there are some props and buildings to give it the steampunk feel that I am going for. For the GUI, everything is being created on the fly/modified constantly, so that's time consuming BUT the actual combat engine is done! All I need to code is the bridge that lets you access the various game modes as well as saving and loading armies. So, add all this up and I am at about 50.4 MB of data not counting the 2-3MB of pure code. I'll have to skim down some unused models/textures (which I know some got left over), the smaller the better, but I won't do anything to hurt the unique look of each class.
Popularity System
On the topic of listing on BNet, last I heard the maximum amount for someone to upload is 5 maps/50MBs so the above should be fine. The way that Blizzard is doing the listing, however, seems like it might be a hassle, since from what I have learned, they're using a popularity system that bases popularity on how many people are hosting said map. Correct me if I am wrong about the system, but with this being said, constantly releasing working demo updates would seem to benefit rather than the more often used system of an alpha, beta, and full release. So depending on how things go, expect a lot of releases after the first one.
Help
Any advice or ideas would be greatly appreciated and of course you will be given credit. I'm currently setting up a quick website for the game and info on it at GrimDot.com.
I am in great need of a smart class guide, i.e. what classes unlock higher tier classes. In my previous post you'll find the 50 class chart with vertical columns depicting the 5 tiers of classes.
An example would be :
Defender Requirements:Soldier Lv. 20, Monk Lv. 25
The only limit is that I would prefer to stay around level 100-250 or the final classes as I don't want the maximum level to be required to see all the content.
Hey everyone. So far a lot of progress has been made and my current goal of releasing a playable demo will hopefully come before the end of this year. I have completed the starting unit statistics as well as the starting classes.
Numbers: 8 Attributes, 4 Stat Modifiers, 100 Classes, 5 Tiers and 1 Hardcore Mode
The first release will have an amount of 50 playable classes, divided into 5 tiers. 8 starting classes, 12 tier 2 classes and 10 classes in tiers 3,4, and 5. The higher the tier, the more powerful the class, but the harder to obtain and higher the cost. I have also added a "hardcore" setting for unit classes. When this is unlocked, all classes will essentially split, giving a total of 100 classes. The original class will stay the same, but the "hardcore" class will have a different name much higher stats, and like the name suggests (for fans of Diablo) once the unit dies, it cannot be revived. This combines the "hard-luck" unit deaths from Fire Emblem with the never-dying units found in games such as Disgaea.
Breaking it Down
Level Cap
All of this probably seems daunting and overly complicated but my goal here is to allow the player to play to their level of comfort. For those who enjoy the statistical aspect of tactics games will be able to explore this in depth while at the same time those who want to enjoy the story (single player mode) or multi player game play. This will become more clear as the first release comes out, but to put it plainly, you don't have to grind out 5000+ levels for each unit in order to enjoy the game but by the same token, game play doesn't necessarily stop at level 99 or after playing with 5 or 6 classes.
Statistics: Attributes and Modifiers
Stats: These are the values that are decided by attributes and modifiers and in some cases talents/abilities
Level - Current level of the unit, value from 1 to 9999
Move - Amount of grids a unit can move during a turn. Currently 1 is the minimum and 9 is the max.
Speed - Determines movement order, value from 0.01 to 9.99
Counter - The amount of times (if at all) a unit can attack back when it is attacked, value from 0 to 3(pending)
Health - A value that defines how much damage a unit can take before it is knocked out.
Energy - A value that defines how much a unit can use it's abilities.
Defense - An overall rating of the unit's ability to withstand damage
Attack - An overall rating of the unit's ability to cause damage
Damage - Displays the offensive damage this unit can cause. It is displayed as (Damage Low - Damage High) with the actual value being a random number in the middle.
Attributes: These are the meat of what makes a class unique, each of these values changes drastically as a unit levels
Strength - A major factor in the offensive capabilities of a unit, also decreases damage taken to a lesser extent
Stamina - Mainly modifies the health pool by a base of 15 points per stamina
Agility - Modifies defense, critical chance, chance to hit and more.
Power - Mainly modifies the energy pool by a base of 10 points per power, also increases ability damage.
Endurance - Controls the defensive capabilities of the unit and it's ability to take damage, also boosts health.
Luck - This attribute affects various things in various ways, sort of the wildcard of the bunch.
Modifiers: These percentages effect the chances of defensive and offensive events taking place
Evasion - Modifies the unit's ability to avoid taking damage. Max 89.99%
Reduction - Modifies the amount of damage taken from any given attack. Max 84.99%
Accuracy - Modifies the chance to land a hit on an opponent. Max 98.99%
Critical - Modifies the chance to land a strong hit (2.5x Damage) on an opponent. Max 69.99%
Note: All of the above maximum values are subject to change and are currently just ballpark values. However, all the modifier max values would be less than 100%.
Each class gets a base stat value as well as a per-level increment value. For the modifiers (percentage to hit/defend/miss/crit etc) the same system is in place however the increment is much smaller than the base value and often has a cap.
Classes
The included image shows all 50 classes, plus the 2 hero classes (green boxes). The red boxes are classes that are yet to be completed.
Multiplayer: Different Modes
The way I see it, for multiplayer to work, there has to be some sort of "middleground" so that players can play eachother regardless of the possible massive gap in unit levels. My idea to fix this is currently to allow different modes of multiplayer. A mode fight another player with your armies completely untouched, i.e. someone with 10 Lvl 800 units can fight someone with 10 Lvl 10 units. Obviously this wouldn't be the mode for players with that sort of level difference, it would be for players who have either reached the top level or are within the upper ecehelon 7500-9999 lvl units when they are averaged out. The second and probably more popular mode include creating an army before the battle given an overal level allottment, this way the map can be played by people right off the bat and no existing army save file is needed. Lastly, for those who wish to work on armies and upkeep them can fight other armies in a sort of handicapped fight. The handicapping method will be talked about more later, but currently it will be something similar to other handicap systems that exist in games, however I want to really focus on keeping the integrity of the army. These three modes are subject to change as well as have things added to or taken away from them.
If you want to remove the two icons, then you'll need to make a custom UI. You can hide the game UI and still access the minimap and command card dialogs using simple triggers. Then you can just make a dialog for the middle that shows unit info and you can put whatever you want. It's not hard at all and will make your map more memorable and easy to use (if your UI is simple enough).
Search the forum for dialog tutorials. It should probably only be about 5-10 lines of code via triggers.
This is done by checking the "Hero" box in the unit properties field in the data editor. It's found in the "Unit" section. However, it will add a different set of UI elements that you probably wont want either.
Hey, I'm not sure if this is the right section but I have been getting an ongoing problem with some models when I import them and setup the unit attachments. As an example I'll use the Alliance Footsoldier. The model itself is the body not including the helmet, weapon, shield and shoulders. The shield, shoulders, sword, and helmet sometimes appear very dark. I assume it has something to do with either the lighting or specular mapping, neither of which I have played around with. I have gotten some models to show up fine by using the main actor of a unit whose attachments weren't dark.
The problem is that I still don't know why this is happening. If anyone with experience in models, importing WoW models, or anything with the editor can help that would be great! Also any help with the best lighting settings/shadow settings or opinions would be appreciated.
If you need any information let me know, I'll be monitoring the thread so I'll answer asap.
I'm including a picture to show what the problem is, as you can see some of the helmets and shoulderpads (on the blueish soldiers ) look very dark and on some of the units, they're fine (the red soldiers on the right).
Since that screenshot, they lighting for all attachments has been fixed so all shoulderpads and helmets look fine. I'm sure they can look even better with certain editing but for now I am focusing on the mechanics first.
As for classes, what I have so far is about 30 or so with some classes having both genders for one class. The genders have different class trees so playing a female soldier gets you a different set of classes unlocked(all female classes) as opposed to the male soldier. There are different types of classes (magic, stealth, melee, ranged, intellect) as well as 5 tiers of classes that are unlocked similar to FFTactics. I have a few spreadsheets that contain calculations for class growth through 100 levels based on the 4 stat system which I'll share in the near future. Balancing the classes will be probably the hardest part so any help you or anyone else can give will be greatly appreciated. When I have a playable version available it will be easier to balance. I included a screenshot of a few classes, the Monk, the Rogue, and the Warlock.
The grid visibility will eventually be a setting where you can choose whether or not it shows up. For now I need it to measure player steps, aoe attacks, etc. In the end it will have a very FFTactics style look to it.
Hehe, what constitutes homeless-looking? Tattered clothes, sad faces, or the original high elf models (they look terrible compared to the latest releases)?
Also, for people having problems with how to attach weapons the easiest method is to try using SOpAttachWeaponRight / SOpAttachWeaponLeft in the host operations field on the weapon actor. These are default operations so you dont even have to make them. 99% of the models, characters mainly, use this as an attachment point.
Note: 1 Handed Swords do not attach properly. When they are attached they stick out horizontal to the unit and it doesn't look right. The following is what I have found when testing on both characters and creatures:
1H Swords do not attach correctly
Edit: Some 1H Swords do work such as the Katanas and Korean weapons.
1H Axes/Maces unknown
2 Handed Swords/Axes/Maces work properly
Crossbows/Rifles work properly
1H Knives work properly
2H Staves work properly
Hand Weapons work properly
By "work properly" I mean you simply attach them using SOpWeaponRight/Left and they look perfect. As far as I know there is no way outside of extensive site host operations (i.e. adjusting the location of the weapon to the movement of the unit's stand animation). I did manage to attach a 1H sword so that it looked proper by using 4 swords and attaching each on to the previous one. This works by flipping the sword around so that it looks like the unit is holding it. The problem is that the unit's selection box becomes the size of half the map. I'm sure theres a way around this, but my advice is just use a 2H Sword and shrink it a bit.
The only other advice I can give relates to the Blood Elf characters. The male and female belfs have their own distinct shoulder/head attachments and I'll list them below. I decided to use Belfs in my map only after I discovered I could remove their crazy eyebrows and ears, making them look human, since the human WOW models look really goofy. Anyway here's the attachment points:
Male Blood Elf
Head: Hardpoint 10
Weapon Right: SOpAttachWeaponRight
Weapon Left: SOpAttachWeaponLeft
Shoulder Right: Hardpoint 3
Shoulder Left: Hardpoint 4
Female Blood Elf
Head: Hardpoint 7
Weapon Right: SOpAttachWeaponRight
Weapon Left: SOpAttachWeaponLeft
Shoulder Right: Hardpoint 3
Shoulder Left: Hardpoint 4
For any of the above that don't have default site operations simply make an actor based on Site Operations with the field "Attachment Query" set to whatever it says above, ex: Hardpoint 10
The above values for the shoulder might work for all races and creatures, but I haven't checked it yet.
I decided to lower the size of the M3 models by reducing the animations included. Now what once was 1.5MB is 500kB (pre-compression). I also added some WoW structures and I hope to combine them with the SC2 structures to make a steampunk environment. I have also started on setting up the scene for the first scenario. The scene involves the Asterian (your home country) army standing in formation outside of their castle while their commanding officers speak with the main character. The Asterian army currently includes Soldiers (1h sword + shield), Axemen (axe + shield), Captain (2H weapons), Bowmen (crossbow), Paladins (2h mace + spells), Clerics (staff + spells), Mages (staff + spells) and your hero (1h weapons, 2h weapons, and some magic).
I am thinking about adding female versions of the above. The mage is currently male, and the cleric is currently female, but the rest are male. Also I plan to add a type of unarmed combat unit (Monk), a Lance user (2H Poleaxes), and Gunner that uses firearms and is similar to the Bowman. Any suggestions for classes or opinions about the included classes would be helpful so please comment away.
I am working to release a playable scenario. Making the WoW Models look how I want them to and move like a normal unit is taking the longest, but I am getting there. The story for the game so far will revolve around a noble who is given a regiment of soldiers after his country, Aster (a bluish color thus the blue colors for its army) is invaded. The noble will have the rank of Lord and be a somewhat stronger basic unit, which is the Soldier. The soldier wields a shield and sword however weapons technology is not limited to this, guns are also included as this is a steampunk style game. The Lord will wield a much bigger sword and no helmet so that he stands out and maintains a personality.
There will also be cutscenes depicting the story inbetween battles, but of course the combat system will come first. I've included a screenshot of the latest progress. This shows the Asterian forces (blue stormwind guard models) fighting the invading Carnelian forces (red guards). These units are character types from WoW, so the shoulders/sword/shield/helm had to be attached and I finally got them to behave appropriately. One minor bug is that the blue shoulders and helm are black-ish. Also in the screenshot below you'll see the red players are offset in the grid. This is due to a combat range bug.
The reason I mentioned anything about the story was to setup the first map release. I am thinking it will be the first Mission in which your own troops (2 to 3 level 1 soldiers) attack you (a level 3 Lord) to test your strength since you have basically been promoted because of your family. This will be a tutorial fight and include some dialog. It should also help to setup the story and really put you in the shoes of the main character.
P.S. Those WoW skins gave me an idea. You know Zeratul's blink ability in the campaign? That would look sweet for shadowstep for a rogue!
Haha, yeah that would look sick. There are so many ideas I get while setting up the models that I ended up with about 45MB of imported data. Right now the map size is 48.3MB including triggers and the rest. For the scenario map I will make a new map with just the imported models that are needed so that the size is much smaller. Your unit levels will still be saved, though, using the bank system.
Well basically the values set in the data editor, where you can view Units, Actors, Models, etc, have nothing to do with the values setup in-game. The only values I use are the Unit-Actor-Model relationships so that the Units have unique models, and the "Class" type value is setup to the name of the unit. Basically any time a type of unit is created, whether it's created for the player's army or for the computer's army, their vital stats are created and stored in the custom unit data using the Custom Unit Value data table and they receive a random generated name (ex: a unit could end up being called "Markus the Warrior" or "Cecil the Knight"). I also control everything involved in combat, all the way up to the lower and upper range of damage, minimum and maximum hp/energy/experience, and more. They are all either generated from the default settings that I declare, or are values loaded from a player's bank. My map contains a bunch of easy to use functions like "Get/Set Unit ID", "Get/Set Unit Current HP", etc.
I even go a step further and create the attack type (melee, melee cleave, melee line, ranged, and more) and what the exact damage done is based on a formula that uses the custom attributes that I set up. So, for example, all of my units have the same value, I think 20 or 30, for max hp as setup in the data editor. This value isn't using and is instead changed to what I want using variables, therefore giving the effect that the unit has the set amount HP. If it sounds confusing then I'm probably over explaining it as it's pretty simple.
The reason I even ended up going down this route was due to the requirements for my map, a turn based strategy rpg, and the fact that I wanted total control over how a unit moves, all damage done during an attack including animations and missile type, custom attribute formulas (example: every point of stamina adds 15 HP except if the unit class type has a special "talent" such as the Monk who gains 20 HP per stamina point), and control over what to do when a unit levels up. Note: This was before the recent patch that now lets you have access to triggers such as unit Level and Experience, but I still like my method because I completely control any and all data manipulation outside of Starcraft II's default formula's.
The map I am currently working on uses units that level up and gain stats and abilities and the entire thing is done through variables and arrays. The actual units themselves have no connection to the data found in the data editor. By doing this you are free from the many restrictions caused by limited trigger types and other GE limitations.
I'm telling you this to let you know that not only does this method work, it's completely seamless and allows you to do so much more.
I achieved this by creating a custom UI. Health Bars, XP bars, Mana bars, stat dialogs, etc. Tooltips, and mouseovers also help to display the data in realtime. I'm not entirely sure what your end goal is but you shouldn't have any problem with data consumption since all your data will be kept in arrays which will all be referenced by an index value. Also, my map is one where every unit is treated like a hero as in they gain experience, level up, and have attributes. Staying away from veterancy opened the floodgates for me ;).
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December Update
Things have been moving along very nicely. If you've read the previous posts, you'll see that I mistakenly went over the map size limit by about 40MB. So what I did was rework my models and have actually ended up with my goal of 50 different units over 4 tiers with a 51st class that serves as your "main character". My entire map size is now about 9.4 MB including code and all and it's time to tune the classes.
Combat
Combat is coming along great. Lately I have pushed more towards the Fire Emblem realm, with mounted units in the higher tiers and those armor bloated Knights and Generals that I used to love. Each class has about 1 special ability on top of their normal attack. That special ability pretty much defines the class. Higher tiers have more than 1. So let's say you want a nice team of Archers to use a long distance barrage combined with a Time Mage or Chronomancer to speed them up, possibly obliterating your enemy before they reach you. Heavily armored units can supplement glass cannon mages such as a the Pyre Mage, by providing them with a defense boost just by being near them. Overall, combat is swift and units will die if they aren't taken care of. What I want, is Fire Emblem but faster play when playing multiplayer (so its less like chess). This doesn't mean the skill will be gone, if anything it's been improved beyond the rock, paper, scissor style combat I started out with. For example, depending on how you "evolve" into a Spellblade (a sword wielding 4th tier caster), he may use Light/Dark Magic, or powerful Gravity Attacks, making just that one unit very dynamic. Gameplay will be an evolution through alpha and beta, with a public release being the most transforming time.
Classes
The classes do number in the 50s, but only about 12 or so are being developed now and for the first release. These are the tier 1 units, your basic melee, ranged, and magic units from which your army feeds from. I am still wondering on how to make the general "quick gameplay mode" work. I am thinking about something like you get 12 unit "credits" and these can be used to recruit and/or upgrade your army so you can play right away and if you want, evolve that army over multiple plays. For example, you can go zergling mode and get 12 Tier 1 Soldiers, or maybe upgrade to a Dragoon(Tier 2 Lancer), a Bishop (Tier 2 Healer), and a Pyre Mage (Tier 2 Pupil). That 12 vs 3 might be more evenly matched than you would think, or not at all depending on what skills you employ. Tier 1 Classes (In no particular order)
Attached is a ss of my two soldiers after they killed two fighters. It shows the updated GUI and new grid opacity.
More to come, any feedback, tips, comments are much appreciated. Also, the website in my sig is under dev so check back soon.
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@Feraligono: Go
Nice job on the tutorial! I need to start giving back and write a few myself.
I noticed that when I import my textures/models, I don't need to restart the SC2 Galaxy Editor.
My Steps: 1. Import TEXTURE(S) FIRST as it says above. 2. Save. 3. Import Model. 4. Save.
If you find it crashing, then stick to the OP's method. Also, if anyone is having problems staying under 10MB I'll be writing a tutorial (if one doesnt exist) on how to shrink the size of texture image files down to about 10% of their current size which is 1-2MB for Expansion 2,3 models and 256KB for Original.
@simras
The attachment points seem to be the same when dealing with models from the same expansion and this: "And for some reason I had to turn off fog of war on my equipment or it would show as very shady all the time." BUGGED ME FOR DAYS until I finally figured it out. Some units had the dark attachments and others were fine...drove me nuts. What I wanted to say to you, if you're having problems with the viewer (or even if youre not) is to download each release of the WoW Model viewer and keep them in a directory because some of the older versions will give you different models and export them differently. The newer releases are better M3 files, but they ignore the oldworld.mpq so you miss out on some models.
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@BorgDragon: Go
@deleted_4551290: Go
Well I am basically trying to do what I have been working on for years under different programming languages, mostly held back by lack of art, to create the perfect turn base strategy game. Adding elements from every great game in the genre, plus I have a bunch of other ideas so the combination should be pretty great. Plus nothing beats beta testing 9,999 levels for 50+ different units.
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@Mephs: Go
I heard it was in terms of total amounts, like "up to" 5 maps, and "up to" a total of 50MBs. If you're right though, then the only thing the game would lose is the medieval/steampunk doodads as the unit models are less than 8-9 MBs. I'll try to confirm.
Edit: "...increased custom map upload limits in two ways. Players are now provided with a total of 10 custom map slots and up to 50 mbs of total map storage space." -Source
I definitely took this to mean a total of 50mbs for you to use overall, but reading the comments and other sources I see that it is indeed 10MB. Looking at the Euro servers, they have 20MB, so maybe by the time I release this, it will be higher than 10MB, but for now I'll have to resize. Such a powerful tool, with an archaic amount of memory available...I guess I can always have a "deluxe" version with as many MBs of data as I want and have that for offline play, like the campaign and training your army.
Thanks for the heads up, Mephs.
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@Mephs: Go @xShaelis: Go
Right now I'm working hard to get a playable demo with 2 player capabilities and maybe 8-10 classes as soon as possible. (The official game will be 4 players, if I can get it running smoothly with that many people). I hope to have a demo out within 2-3 weeks, but possibly before then.
Minor Update
Map Size Issues
The main issue is add-on models and model textures. Out of the 50 classes, only about 5 classes use SC2 models and there are some props and buildings to give it the steampunk feel that I am going for. For the GUI, everything is being created on the fly/modified constantly, so that's time consuming BUT the actual combat engine is done! All I need to code is the bridge that lets you access the various game modes as well as saving and loading armies. So, add all this up and I am at about 50.4 MB of data not counting the 2-3MB of pure code. I'll have to skim down some unused models/textures (which I know some got left over), the smaller the better, but I won't do anything to hurt the unique look of each class.
Popularity System
On the topic of listing on BNet, last I heard the maximum amount for someone to upload is 5 maps/50MBs so the above should be fine. The way that Blizzard is doing the listing, however, seems like it might be a hassle, since from what I have learned, they're using a popularity system that bases popularity on how many people are hosting said map. Correct me if I am wrong about the system, but with this being said, constantly releasing working demo updates would seem to benefit rather than the more often used system of an alpha, beta, and full release. So depending on how things go, expect a lot of releases after the first one.
Help
Any advice or ideas would be greatly appreciated and of course you will be given credit. I'm currently setting up a quick website for the game and info on it at GrimDot.com. I am in great need of a smart class guide, i.e. what classes unlock higher tier classes. In my previous post you'll find the 50 class chart with vertical columns depicting the 5 tiers of classes. An example would be :
The only limit is that I would prefer to stay around level 100-250 or the final classes as I don't want the maximum level to be required to see all the content.
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Update - November 2010
Hey everyone. So far a lot of progress has been made and my current goal of releasing a playable demo will hopefully come before the end of this year. I have completed the starting unit statistics as well as the starting classes.
Numbers: 8 Attributes, 4 Stat Modifiers, 100 Classes, 5 Tiers and 1 Hardcore Mode
The first release will have an amount of 50 playable classes, divided into 5 tiers. 8 starting classes, 12 tier 2 classes and 10 classes in tiers 3,4, and 5. The higher the tier, the more powerful the class, but the harder to obtain and higher the cost. I have also added a "hardcore" setting for unit classes. When this is unlocked, all classes will essentially split, giving a total of 100 classes. The original class will stay the same, but the "hardcore" class will have a different name much higher stats, and like the name suggests (for fans of Diablo) once the unit dies, it cannot be revived. This combines the "hard-luck" unit deaths from Fire Emblem with the never-dying units found in games such as Disgaea.
Breaking it Down
Level Cap
All of this probably seems daunting and overly complicated but my goal here is to allow the player to play to their level of comfort. For those who enjoy the statistical aspect of tactics games will be able to explore this in depth while at the same time those who want to enjoy the story (single player mode) or multi player game play. This will become more clear as the first release comes out, but to put it plainly, you don't have to grind out 5000+ levels for each unit in order to enjoy the game but by the same token, game play doesn't necessarily stop at level 99 or after playing with 5 or 6 classes.
Statistics: Attributes and Modifiers
Each class gets a base stat value as well as a per-level increment value. For the modifiers (percentage to hit/defend/miss/crit etc) the same system is in place however the increment is much smaller than the base value and often has a cap.
Classes
The included image shows all 50 classes, plus the 2 hero classes (green boxes). The red boxes are classes that are yet to be completed.
Multiplayer: Different Modes
The way I see it, for multiplayer to work, there has to be some sort of "middleground" so that players can play eachother regardless of the possible massive gap in unit levels. My idea to fix this is currently to allow different modes of multiplayer. A mode fight another player with your armies completely untouched, i.e. someone with 10 Lvl 800 units can fight someone with 10 Lvl 10 units. Obviously this wouldn't be the mode for players with that sort of level difference, it would be for players who have either reached the top level or are within the upper ecehelon 7500-9999 lvl units when they are averaged out. The second and probably more popular mode include creating an army before the battle given an overal level allottment, this way the map can be played by people right off the bat and no existing army save file is needed. Lastly, for those who wish to work on armies and upkeep them can fight other armies in a sort of handicapped fight. The handicapping method will be talked about more later, but currently it will be something similar to other handicap systems that exist in games, however I want to really focus on keeping the integrity of the army. These three modes are subject to change as well as have things added to or taken away from them.
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@Lorthas: Go
If you want to remove the two icons, then you'll need to make a custom UI. You can hide the game UI and still access the minimap and command card dialogs using simple triggers. Then you can just make a dialog for the middle that shows unit info and you can put whatever you want. It's not hard at all and will make your map more memorable and easy to use (if your UI is simple enough).
Search the forum for dialog tutorials. It should probably only be about 5-10 lines of code via triggers.
This is done by checking the "Hero" box in the unit properties field in the data editor. It's found in the "Unit" section. However, it will add a different set of UI elements that you probably wont want either.
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Anyone on this?
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Hey, I'm not sure if this is the right section but I have been getting an ongoing problem with some models when I import them and setup the unit attachments. As an example I'll use the Alliance Footsoldier. The model itself is the body not including the helmet, weapon, shield and shoulders. The shield, shoulders, sword, and helmet sometimes appear very dark. I assume it has something to do with either the lighting or specular mapping, neither of which I have played around with. I have gotten some models to show up fine by using the main actor of a unit whose attachments weren't dark.
The problem is that I still don't know why this is happening. If anyone with experience in models, importing WoW models, or anything with the editor can help that would be great! Also any help with the best lighting settings/shadow settings or opinions would be appreciated.
If you need any information let me know, I'll be monitoring the thread so I'll answer asap.
I'm including a picture to show what the problem is, as you can see some of the helmets and shoulderpads (on the blueish soldiers ) look very dark and on some of the units, they're fine (the red soldiers on the right).
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@Sephiex: Go
Since that screenshot, they lighting for all attachments has been fixed so all shoulderpads and helmets look fine. I'm sure they can look even better with certain editing but for now I am focusing on the mechanics first.
As for classes, what I have so far is about 30 or so with some classes having both genders for one class. The genders have different class trees so playing a female soldier gets you a different set of classes unlocked(all female classes) as opposed to the male soldier. There are different types of classes (magic, stealth, melee, ranged, intellect) as well as 5 tiers of classes that are unlocked similar to FFTactics. I have a few spreadsheets that contain calculations for class growth through 100 levels based on the 4 stat system which I'll share in the near future. Balancing the classes will be probably the hardest part so any help you or anyone else can give will be greatly appreciated. When I have a playable version available it will be easier to balance. I included a screenshot of a few classes, the Monk, the Rogue, and the Warlock.
@Creation25: Go
The grid visibility will eventually be a setting where you can choose whether or not it shows up. For now I need it to measure player steps, aoe attacks, etc. In the end it will have a very FFTactics style look to it.
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Hehe, what constitutes homeless-looking? Tattered clothes, sad faces, or the original high elf models (they look terrible compared to the latest releases)?
Also, for people having problems with how to attach weapons the easiest method is to try using SOpAttachWeaponRight / SOpAttachWeaponLeft in the host operations field on the weapon actor. These are default operations so you dont even have to make them. 99% of the models, characters mainly, use this as an attachment point.
Note: 1 Handed Swords do not attach properly. When they are attached they stick out horizontal to the unit and it doesn't look right. The following is what I have found when testing on both characters and creatures: 1H Swords do not attach correctly Edit: Some 1H Swords do work such as the Katanas and Korean weapons. 1H Axes/Maces unknown 2 Handed Swords/Axes/Maces work properly Crossbows/Rifles work properly 1H Knives work properly 2H Staves work properly Hand Weapons work properly
By "work properly" I mean you simply attach them using SOpWeaponRight/Left and they look perfect. As far as I know there is no way outside of extensive site host operations (i.e. adjusting the location of the weapon to the movement of the unit's stand animation). I did manage to attach a 1H sword so that it looked proper by using 4 swords and attaching each on to the previous one. This works by flipping the sword around so that it looks like the unit is holding it. The problem is that the unit's selection box becomes the size of half the map. I'm sure theres a way around this, but my advice is just use a 2H Sword and shrink it a bit.
The only other advice I can give relates to the Blood Elf characters. The male and female belfs have their own distinct shoulder/head attachments and I'll list them below. I decided to use Belfs in my map only after I discovered I could remove their crazy eyebrows and ears, making them look human, since the human WOW models look really goofy. Anyway here's the attachment points:
Male Blood Elf
Female Blood Elf
The above values for the shoulder might work for all races and creatures, but I haven't checked it yet.
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New Updates
I decided to lower the size of the M3 models by reducing the animations included. Now what once was 1.5MB is 500kB (pre-compression). I also added some WoW structures and I hope to combine them with the SC2 structures to make a steampunk environment. I have also started on setting up the scene for the first scenario. The scene involves the Asterian (your home country) army standing in formation outside of their castle while their commanding officers speak with the main character. The Asterian army currently includes Soldiers (1h sword + shield), Axemen (axe + shield), Captain (2H weapons), Bowmen (crossbow), Paladins (2h mace + spells), Clerics (staff + spells), Mages (staff + spells) and your hero (1h weapons, 2h weapons, and some magic).
I am thinking about adding female versions of the above. The mage is currently male, and the cleric is currently female, but the rest are male. Also I plan to add a type of unarmed combat unit (Monk), a Lance user (2H Poleaxes), and Gunner that uses firearms and is similar to the Bowman. Any suggestions for classes or opinions about the included classes would be helpful so please comment away.
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@stingrey55: Go
I am working to release a playable scenario. Making the WoW Models look how I want them to and move like a normal unit is taking the longest, but I am getting there. The story for the game so far will revolve around a noble who is given a regiment of soldiers after his country, Aster (a bluish color thus the blue colors for its army) is invaded. The noble will have the rank of Lord and be a somewhat stronger basic unit, which is the Soldier. The soldier wields a shield and sword however weapons technology is not limited to this, guns are also included as this is a steampunk style game. The Lord will wield a much bigger sword and no helmet so that he stands out and maintains a personality.
There will also be cutscenes depicting the story inbetween battles, but of course the combat system will come first. I've included a screenshot of the latest progress. This shows the Asterian forces (blue stormwind guard models) fighting the invading Carnelian forces (red guards). These units are character types from WoW, so the shoulders/sword/shield/helm had to be attached and I finally got them to behave appropriately. One minor bug is that the blue shoulders and helm are black-ish. Also in the screenshot below you'll see the red players are offset in the grid. This is due to a combat range bug.
The reason I mentioned anything about the story was to setup the first map release. I am thinking it will be the first Mission in which your own troops (2 to 3 level 1 soldiers) attack you (a level 3 Lord) to test your strength since you have basically been promoted because of your family. This will be a tutorial fight and include some dialog. It should also help to setup the story and really put you in the shoes of the main character.
P.S. Those WoW skins gave me an idea. You know Zeratul's blink ability in the campaign? That would look sweet for shadowstep for a rogue!
Haha, yeah that would look sick. There are so many ideas I get while setting up the models that I ended up with about 45MB of imported data. Right now the map size is 48.3MB including triggers and the rest. For the scenario map I will make a new map with just the imported models that are needed so that the size is much smaller. Your unit levels will still be saved, though, using the bank system.
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@JCManowar: Go
Well basically the values set in the data editor, where you can view Units, Actors, Models, etc, have nothing to do with the values setup in-game. The only values I use are the Unit-Actor-Model relationships so that the Units have unique models, and the "Class" type value is setup to the name of the unit. Basically any time a type of unit is created, whether it's created for the player's army or for the computer's army, their vital stats are created and stored in the custom unit data using the Custom Unit Value data table and they receive a random generated name (ex: a unit could end up being called "Markus the Warrior" or "Cecil the Knight"). I also control everything involved in combat, all the way up to the lower and upper range of damage, minimum and maximum hp/energy/experience, and more. They are all either generated from the default settings that I declare, or are values loaded from a player's bank. My map contains a bunch of easy to use functions like "Get/Set Unit ID", "Get/Set Unit Current HP", etc.
I even go a step further and create the attack type (melee, melee cleave, melee line, ranged, and more) and what the exact damage done is based on a formula that uses the custom attributes that I set up. So, for example, all of my units have the same value, I think 20 or 30, for max hp as setup in the data editor. This value isn't using and is instead changed to what I want using variables, therefore giving the effect that the unit has the set amount HP. If it sounds confusing then I'm probably over explaining it as it's pretty simple.
The reason I even ended up going down this route was due to the requirements for my map, a turn based strategy rpg, and the fact that I wanted total control over how a unit moves, all damage done during an attack including animations and missile type, custom attribute formulas (example: every point of stamina adds 15 HP except if the unit class type has a special "talent" such as the Monk who gains 20 HP per stamina point), and control over what to do when a unit levels up. Note: This was before the recent patch that now lets you have access to triggers such as unit Level and Experience, but I still like my method because I completely control any and all data manipulation outside of Starcraft II's default formula's.
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@JCManowar: Go
The map I am currently working on uses units that level up and gain stats and abilities and the entire thing is done through variables and arrays. The actual units themselves have no connection to the data found in the data editor. By doing this you are free from the many restrictions caused by limited trigger types and other GE limitations.
I'm telling you this to let you know that not only does this method work, it's completely seamless and allows you to do so much more.
I achieved this by creating a custom UI. Health Bars, XP bars, Mana bars, stat dialogs, etc. Tooltips, and mouseovers also help to display the data in realtime. I'm not entirely sure what your end goal is but you shouldn't have any problem with data consumption since all your data will be kept in arrays which will all be referenced by an index value. Also, my map is one where every unit is treated like a hero as in they gain experience, level up, and have attributes. Staying away from veterancy opened the floodgates for me ;).