Define "Game Design" - there is a shitton to learn about that on all the subareas and even if you know a lot, you still lack experience. I've studied it, I know what I'm talking about 8[
Because if you can't tell me what exactly you want to do, I'll throw you dead with Books, Blogs & Forumposts.
I'll read anything you throw out me thats free. Until I get the money I don't have any books to buy. So depressing. :(
Basically just designing a fun world to play in whether it be 3rd person, topdown, rts view, etc. What I am looking for is putting out fun content(Content Design), designing unique gameplay, if that makes any sense, or helps you in anyway. I haven't studied a lot on it, so if you have more specific questions I could answer.... Sorry if that isn't helpful!
But Game Design is not easily learned, it is more based on experience; maybe logic (for balance purposes).
You could use/write some GDD (Game Design Document - just google for it) to develop your first ideas further and see what game design is about
Best thing to do is to just play lots and lots and lots of games with a keen eye for what makes them fun. Don't underestimate UI, sounds, hotkeys, etc. Also try to understand the underlying framework of the game, the mathematical formula that determines how things work. It's one thing to know what's fun, it's another to know what makes what makes games fun. Once you understand this... well, no one really fully understands game design, it's a huge clusterfuck of systems and assets.
Keep playing, keep modding. It all melds together, reading a book on it wont do too much good.
There are some books that can greatly help on understanding the rough outlines of Game Design, but all of them cost money and are nearly 1000 pages thick ;)
To find out if something is "fun", you only have a few options: A) Steal it, B) Testing, Testing, Testing C) Lucky Throw.
My basic tip is: Do NEVER develop for yourself. Always for the customer. What you want is all nice and great, but if the community doesn't like it, you're stuck with small-scale stuff :\
You can't 'learn' game design. Sure there are some technical aspects such as optimal UI layout etc, but on the whole it's about imagination and the feel of the game. And you can't learn how to do that.
You can't 'learn' game design. Sure there are some technical aspects such as optimal UI layout etc, but on the whole it's about imagination and the feel of the game. And you can't learn how to do that.
There is a lot of hard, boring theory behind Game Design. Actual Game Design is not what 90% of this forum does all day.
"Actual" game design is a misleading choice of adjective. What you're talking about is "formal" game design. You can make a smash hit without ever touching the theory. That is no less game design than playing it by the book.
@Gorandor: Go
You can make a smash hit without ever touching the theory. That is no less game design than playing it by the book.
True but probability factor comes into play, and as we see all the time with the games/maps/etc around us, its pretty loooooow. So I dont think I believe in "formal game design"
True but probability factor comes into play, and as we see all the time with the games/maps/etc around us, its pretty loooooow. So I dont think I believe in "formal game design"
Nor do I. Creating a fun game is an art, not a science. Using theory and numbers can help, but they are only a guide. You can't rely on them to carry you through the whole process. At some point, it takes an eye for what is fun to wrap it all up.
Nor do I. Creating a fun game is an art, not a science. Using theory and numbers can help, but they are only a guide. You can't rely on them to carry you through the whole process. At some point, it takes an eye for what is fun to wrap it all up.
To a great amount, it is science. Art is the smaller part of what we do, really. A lot has to do with human reactions to certain conditions, leading people by triggering certain emotions, pushing them to explore further, turning them into the right direction. And, most important, coming back for more.
That is not art, that is experience and science. Experience makes a huge part of what makes a good Developer. You have tried something and you just won't make the same mistakes twice. Learning from failures is a great part of this Industry. Especially, when you wallet is empty, if you fail twice. Oh, and there is stuff like organizing your team (SCRUM, Waterfall, etc), holding to your deadlines & milestones, getting the publisher what they want with the money given and not needing another 10 million to burn in the oven (Hello, 3D Realms!).
Most of this does not apply to this community at all. Most just DO, instead of planning ahead. And some have a lucky natural 20 with their map. Most of them don't. Also, most just take what is "fun" from other games and try to recreate that in SC2. It works... sometimes. Mostly it fails due to technical limitations. Maps that at least use parts of the theory, be it known to them or just by intuition end up a lot better (see Vector).
On the other hand, people who just know when they're lead around, get pissed by that. That is a little bit of an art. Leading people, without them noticing you do. I notice this stuff, because I know. I started to analyze games during studying & afterward. That is for example why Heavy Rain annoys me a lot, instead of triggering the emotions they hoped for. Because A) I know what they do there and B) because I frigging hate kids. Little fucks.
Some professional artists use science in their work to make it even more appealing. I agree balancing and mirror images make maps better. However, if you have your head in books all the time how can you get REAL inspiration? Creativity and willingness to fail are just as important as any science or theory.
My belief is simple yet effective. Learn what you like first. If you know what you think makes a map good, go with it. After that tweak it so as many people as possible have more good things to say than bad. On the other hand if it starts not looking like the map of your dreams then it's not what you want to spend your time making. It is the art of balancing personal and peer preference.
If you know what you want to make, just do it. Not to sound mean, but it's not likley you will make the next marine arena anyway. Therefore, make what you like first, what players like second. Why bother working on something that does not please YOU? Ever hear the saying "beauty is in the eye of the beholder"? Well when you are making the map you are the beholder. I ask you to please make what you think is good. There are plenty of resources to learn specific things but it is a very hard to answer question, how do I make a good game?
I see you are a moderator... I am scared of that title, lol.
@Reaper872: Go
I do not create for myself, I create for others, that is one of the first things you have to learn about Game Design. Game Design is also not Art, it's hard work, sometimes even annoying. Doing this for a hobby is different than doing it for a living aka professional design. You can do what you think is great, if you spend millions and only sell a couple of thousand games, you're done with that Publisher. He will be very unlikely to accept another one of your projects to fund for a long, long time. And that you work in a team, with a lot of different ideas, believes and wishes and you have to sort them all out and see what factors into the game for good and what doesn't, makes it even harder. I worked with 15 people max this far and it was hell to sort it all out. Usual a team has around 30 to 120 people working on the same title. You tell me about "Doing the game YOU like" when there is 119 people saying "No".
So, yeah, my approach at this topic is not that of "I wanna make some cool map that makes people think I'm awesome and I can play with people that like what I do." Mine is "I gotta do something awesome that people want to play, no matter if I like parts of it or not, because my home and family will depend on me doing my job the best I can and selling to a huge amount of people."
Oh, and when was the last time you noticed that there is a flickering light just at the edge of your view, that does nothing else than to draw you into that direction?
I'd suggest you to try these two. Start with Jesse, he has a pretty good book for people that have no idea what they're doing at all and if you still wanna learn more after that much theory, go for Katie. You might also wanna look around Gamasutra Features for articles that catch your eye, there is a lot of good stuff for beginners. They rest is way too specific for someone who just started out with the topic.
@Gorandor: Go
Well when you are making the map you are the beholder. I ask you to please make what you think is good. There are plenty of resources to learn specific things but it is a very hard to answer question, how do I make a good game?
Yes but people do that all the time dont they?. They make maps they *think* are good. When in fact its utter *censored word*. I literally almost throw up from playing the garbage maps that are uploaded to B.net. Omg @_@...
I understand what you are trying to say, but I know there are definitely tried and proven formulas and ways to go about designing something/anything.
So yes, its a balance, somewhat, but it lends less in favor to your perception of what you *think* is good.
@Karawasa
Agreed. The part where you say "Its takes an eye", That comes from past experience and observation to formulate a good present decision;p. Im sometimes tempted to believe designers have an innate talent , but l know its not really the case;p
Edit : I agree with Gorandor on this. Pretty much my thoughts exactly.
@Karawasa
Agreed. The part where you say "Its takes an eye", That comes from past experience and observation to formulate a good present decision;p. Im sometimes tempted to believe designers have an innate talent , but l know its not really the case;p
That's why I said making fun games requires a combination of both. You can't dismiss innate talent so easily. You want to lump it into experience but you can't do that. That would be saying that the only thing that separates game designers is something accessible to all. Obviously there are differences amongst people with equivalent experience.
Game design is like an art, not a science. There is no guaranteed formula in making a blockbuster. You practice and that improves yourself, but there needs to be a base to add to. Just like being an artist. I could practice all my life and still won't draw for shit. You should treat making games no different than making movies. It's simply interactive instead. But because of the nondeterministic nature of game design, there has to be an element of innate talent involved. I can't emphasize enough how the lack of definitive solutions makes this so. If it were not, then any artistic craft would have a concrete path for making blockbusters every single time.
I was trying to appeal to the "regular shmoe." I suppose there is a difference between filling your fridge and being a hobbist, but I would definitley choose the latter. It would drive me crazy knowing that showing I did a good job depended on whether or not people played my game. Also, it is MUCH easier to make what you want, becauase it makes sense if you know what you like, others will enjoy it too (or so I hope) Personally I try to do this because it is fun to learn new things and I'm getting better at trial and error when I fail. I don't have hungry little ones running around wondering why daddy couldn't feed them because he failed to make popular "pretty pictures" - the game on some "magic box" - computer. If that is your situation I didn't mean to diss. In that case, by all means do what gets attention and praise from those who hand you your paycheck. I still think that you should be proud of what you were able to do though. What you said about game design not being an art... Painters that want money from art make stuff that people will buy, but it is still art. If I like tech (which I do) I would be a computer designer :)
Where can I learn about Game Design?....It's a pretty blunt question, but seriously. I have this ravenous want that wants to learn about it. =/
Define "Game Design" - there is a shitton to learn about that on all the subareas and even if you know a lot, you still lack experience. I've studied it, I know what I'm talking about 8[
Because if you can't tell me what exactly you want to do, I'll throw you dead with Books, Blogs & Forumposts.
I'll read anything you throw out me thats free. Until I get the money I don't have any books to buy. So depressing. :(
Basically just designing a fun world to play in whether it be 3rd person, topdown, rts view, etc. What I am looking for is putting out fun content(Content Design), designing unique gameplay, if that makes any sense, or helps you in anyway. I haven't studied a lot on it, so if you have more specific questions I could answer.... Sorry if that isn't helpful!
There's a torrent file with 70 game design books. Look it up. :)
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Video_Game_Design (haven't read through all of it but looks ok ...)
But Game Design is not easily learned, it is more based on experience; maybe logic (for balance purposes). You could use/write some GDD (Game Design Document - just google for it) to develop your first ideas further and see what game design is about
if you are able to read/understand german : http://wiki.rz.fh-trier.de/index.php/Digitale_Spiele:Index
Best thing to do is to just play lots and lots and lots of games with a keen eye for what makes them fun. Don't underestimate UI, sounds, hotkeys, etc. Also try to understand the underlying framework of the game, the mathematical formula that determines how things work. It's one thing to know what's fun, it's another to know what makes what makes games fun. Once you understand this... well, no one really fully understands game design, it's a huge clusterfuck of systems and assets.
Keep playing, keep modding. It all melds together, reading a book on it wont do too much good.
There are some books that can greatly help on understanding the rough outlines of Game Design, but all of them cost money and are nearly 1000 pages thick ;)
To find out if something is "fun", you only have a few options: A) Steal it, B) Testing, Testing, Testing C) Lucky Throw.
My basic tip is: Do NEVER develop for yourself. Always for the customer. What you want is all nice and great, but if the community doesn't like it, you're stuck with small-scale stuff :\
You can't 'learn' game design. Sure there are some technical aspects such as optimal UI layout etc, but on the whole it's about imagination and the feel of the game. And you can't learn how to do that.
On the contrary @_@...
There is a lot of hard, boring theory behind Game Design. Actual Game Design is not what 90% of this forum does all day.
"Actual" game design is a misleading choice of adjective. What you're talking about is "formal" game design. You can make a smash hit without ever touching the theory. That is no less game design than playing it by the book.
True but probability factor comes into play, and as we see all the time with the games/maps/etc around us, its pretty loooooow. So I dont think I believe in "formal game design"
Nor do I. Creating a fun game is an art, not a science. Using theory and numbers can help, but they are only a guide. You can't rely on them to carry you through the whole process. At some point, it takes an eye for what is fun to wrap it all up.
To a great amount, it is science. Art is the smaller part of what we do, really. A lot has to do with human reactions to certain conditions, leading people by triggering certain emotions, pushing them to explore further, turning them into the right direction. And, most important, coming back for more.
That is not art, that is experience and science. Experience makes a huge part of what makes a good Developer. You have tried something and you just won't make the same mistakes twice. Learning from failures is a great part of this Industry. Especially, when you wallet is empty, if you fail twice. Oh, and there is stuff like organizing your team (SCRUM, Waterfall, etc), holding to your deadlines & milestones, getting the publisher what they want with the money given and not needing another 10 million to burn in the oven (Hello, 3D Realms!).
Most of this does not apply to this community at all. Most just DO, instead of planning ahead. And some have a lucky natural 20 with their map. Most of them don't. Also, most just take what is "fun" from other games and try to recreate that in SC2. It works... sometimes. Mostly it fails due to technical limitations. Maps that at least use parts of the theory, be it known to them or just by intuition end up a lot better (see Vector).
On the other hand, people who just know when they're lead around, get pissed by that. That is a little bit of an art. Leading people, without them noticing you do. I notice this stuff, because I know. I started to analyze games during studying & afterward. That is for example why Heavy Rain annoys me a lot, instead of triggering the emotions they hoped for. Because A) I know what they do there and B) because I frigging hate kids. Little fucks.
@Gorandor: Go
Some professional artists use science in their work to make it even more appealing. I agree balancing and mirror images make maps better. However, if you have your head in books all the time how can you get REAL inspiration? Creativity and willingness to fail are just as important as any science or theory.
My belief is simple yet effective. Learn what you like first. If you know what you think makes a map good, go with it. After that tweak it so as many people as possible have more good things to say than bad. On the other hand if it starts not looking like the map of your dreams then it's not what you want to spend your time making. It is the art of balancing personal and peer preference.
If you know what you want to make, just do it. Not to sound mean, but it's not likley you will make the next marine arena anyway. Therefore, make what you like first, what players like second. Why bother working on something that does not please YOU? Ever hear the saying "beauty is in the eye of the beholder"? Well when you are making the map you are the beholder. I ask you to please make what you think is good. There are plenty of resources to learn specific things but it is a very hard to answer question, how do I make a good game?
I see you are a moderator... I am scared of that title, lol.
@Reaper872: Go I do not create for myself, I create for others, that is one of the first things you have to learn about Game Design. Game Design is also not Art, it's hard work, sometimes even annoying. Doing this for a hobby is different than doing it for a living aka professional design. You can do what you think is great, if you spend millions and only sell a couple of thousand games, you're done with that Publisher. He will be very unlikely to accept another one of your projects to fund for a long, long time. And that you work in a team, with a lot of different ideas, believes and wishes and you have to sort them all out and see what factors into the game for good and what doesn't, makes it even harder. I worked with 15 people max this far and it was hell to sort it all out. Usual a team has around 30 to 120 people working on the same title. You tell me about "Doing the game YOU like" when there is 119 people saying "No".
So, yeah, my approach at this topic is not that of "I wanna make some cool map that makes people think I'm awesome and I can play with people that like what I do." Mine is "I gotta do something awesome that people want to play, no matter if I like parts of it or not, because my home and family will depend on me doing my job the best I can and selling to a huge amount of people."
Oh, and when was the last time you noticed that there is a flickering light just at the edge of your view, that does nothing else than to draw you into that direction?
@StatusQ3: Go
The Art Of Game Design - Jesse Schell
Rules Of Play: Game Design Fundamentals - Katie Salen
I'd suggest you to try these two. Start with Jesse, he has a pretty good book for people that have no idea what they're doing at all and if you still wanna learn more after that much theory, go for Katie. You might also wanna look around Gamasutra Features for articles that catch your eye, there is a lot of good stuff for beginners. They rest is way too specific for someone who just started out with the topic.
Yes but people do that all the time dont they?. They make maps they *think* are good. When in fact its utter *censored word*. I literally almost throw up from playing the garbage maps that are uploaded to B.net. Omg @_@...
I understand what you are trying to say, but I know there are definitely tried and proven formulas and ways to go about designing something/anything.
So yes, its a balance, somewhat, but it lends less in favor to your perception of what you *think* is good.
@Karawasa
Agreed. The part where you say "Its takes an eye", That comes from past experience and observation to formulate a good present decision;p. Im sometimes tempted to believe designers have an innate talent , but l know its not really the case;p
Edit : I agree with Gorandor on this. Pretty much my thoughts exactly.
That's why I said making fun games requires a combination of both. You can't dismiss innate talent so easily. You want to lump it into experience but you can't do that. That would be saying that the only thing that separates game designers is something accessible to all. Obviously there are differences amongst people with equivalent experience.
Game design is like an art, not a science. There is no guaranteed formula in making a blockbuster. You practice and that improves yourself, but there needs to be a base to add to. Just like being an artist. I could practice all my life and still won't draw for shit. You should treat making games no different than making movies. It's simply interactive instead. But because of the nondeterministic nature of game design, there has to be an element of innate talent involved. I can't emphasize enough how the lack of definitive solutions makes this so. If it were not, then any artistic craft would have a concrete path for making blockbusters every single time.
Thanks Gorandor, I'll look those up and see what I can do. :) Big thanks!!
@Gorandor: Go
I was trying to appeal to the "regular shmoe." I suppose there is a difference between filling your fridge and being a hobbist, but I would definitley choose the latter. It would drive me crazy knowing that showing I did a good job depended on whether or not people played my game. Also, it is MUCH easier to make what you want, becauase it makes sense if you know what you like, others will enjoy it too (or so I hope) Personally I try to do this because it is fun to learn new things and I'm getting better at trial and error when I fail. I don't have hungry little ones running around wondering why daddy couldn't feed them because he failed to make popular "pretty pictures" - the game on some "magic box" - computer. If that is your situation I didn't mean to diss. In that case, by all means do what gets attention and praise from those who hand you your paycheck. I still think that you should be proud of what you were able to do though. What you said about game design not being an art... Painters that want money from art make stuff that people will buy, but it is still art. If I like tech (which I do) I would be a computer designer :)