Ever since I saw those Xil doodads I wanted to make a map with them. And I'm a biologist so the idea of a marine map is great. But I'm not that good as a terrainer so I delayed it for a very long time. Today I gave it a try (a serious one at least). The focus of the map is the "low-tide" environment and the shores. I wanted to make some pathable areas where units get their feet on the water but I'm not sure that's a good idea. Another feature of this map is the huge rock formation at the center of the map, I want to make it look like a giant turtle-shaped rock, covered by moss and plants.
But when I decided to add the command centers to check the map size I saw it is huuuuge! And I'm not saure how I will fix it, maybe reduce some of the high areasand add more low level areas covered with sand. The map has no doodads right now but the shore and cliffs will feature rock formations and inside the watrer there will be sharks, corals and all kinds of marine-good-looking things.
Gameplay-wise the map focuses on different paths (high ground/low ground) interactions and some of these paths will be blocked by destructible rocks. I also plan to make the central rock formation block air pathing, but I'm not sure this is a good idea.
So I'm here to ask for tips and suggestions. I really want to finish this map as my first melee map.
I really rather like the direction your going but it does have some major mistakes that a lot of newer maps exhibit. I thinks its got a lot of potential. The main issue your having that i see a lot of new maps have is that your trying to shape the land by using large spaces between land masses to help define the land rather then instead using one general outline of the entire landmass and then use differences in terrain height after to define the actuall paths ( i hope that inverse example is clear enough). Only after can you then add small unpathable areas that you then largen to help bring the map out better. I mean is a whole lot better to start smaller and expand/improve the map then it is start big and filler to correct if that makes sense. the main areas i see issues is the center mass, the whole infront of i guess is the third and how the fourth/fifth connects or rather doesn't connect to the mainland.
As far as size have a look on tl as thats really the melee hotspot; if im not mistaken mains are roughly 30-35 cc big. I would also change your main; if the cc on map are at the mains they should be moved the smaller connected masses closer to the center sides of the maps (proportions would of course need to be changed to follow). Some mins/gas would be nice to just visually confirm where you plan on putting bases. I would be willing to help you outline the terrain if your interested or i can still just guide you through the direction i think it should go.
I have many more specific thoughts too, but i leave them for now and ask what yours are on everything i've just mentioned.
@hobbidude: Go I'd really appreciate the help. I'm planning to use the low ground too, it isn't there just to separate high ground areas. You can see ramps and there I plan a high-yield on low ground, as well as a path to the main with rocks blocking the ramp. And I still have the extra cliff level to use, I wont keep it for the central rock formation only. I can move the mains one cliff level up to make them look like rock formations too.
This is a very early stage, I was mainly testing how the water and shoreline could look. What do you think about the idea of using walkable shallow water somewhere? Do you think I can make it 2v2 if I keep that size?
No problemo. Unfortunately there're somes issues when working around beach style terrains and i think its very overdone lately especially with maps like belshir beach but by all means you can find a way to make it your own unique twist on it. As far as water and shoreline workins you've got a dilema to chose between; the main issue with shorelines is that the pathing needs to be incredible clear to players (for instance blizzard actually refuses to use any map that has even the smallest stream running through it). This would also mean for any land masses that have a shoreline the creeps maybe 1 or 2 unit distance into water is maybe ok but pretty frowned upon (visually players will love it but when playing any chance of something being unclear espeically bounds is a no no). So think that any area you want to have a nice shoreline on, then the shoreline is going to have to be on the lowest cliff level and the actually land be on the next cliff level which might limit you to using only 2 cliff levels for the mainland. Now i guess with something like your high yeild 5th you can may trick it if you use a no cliff level to define it with the water level just below; then merge the flat sides of the area around into the shoreline you have since the shoreline is actually just below the land height. That too is another issues, raising /lower terrain height which is again another no no but is a little easier to set away with if its very small. Also any changes you would want to do for like shorline anyways would be done top down ie your lowering the land to meet water rather than raising land to be out of water. Remember too that water conflicts with building areas too.
I can't quite see how you would make this into a 2s maps without drastic changes, but i wouldn't worry about it being to big or small at the moment as you will probably change it a lot during the development process. It looks too like you've actually drawn out the entire map to as its not mirrored ie you actually only need to make half a map :).
If all thinks sounds reasonable and clear here'd how i would move forward. Decide the style on how you would like to proceed with the shoreline and the cliffs levels you will have availalble. Start with main at the position and height i suggested and make it a decent looking size comparing with cc, mins ramp buildin blocks and all ( make a sim city if you have too) or even use the map analyze to find the actually size and adjust. Then move to the nat and other bases in order. As i said before do no use water/cliffline to define the shape yet, use difference in terrain height ie the landmass should have edges that connect to each other with maybe some rooms/spaces where there are small holes (the far outside of the entire land mass can of course just sheer off. You can even have thinks like make it so the the high yield fifth is actually just below or infont of the map so it could possibly be a 3rd for the opposite. Ifs funny because this map is really starting to reminds of the new hots winter map blizzard uses for their tvz demo.
If you really have a lot of issues can you always forward me the map and i show what i mean better, but i hope most of this is actually helping, showing things melee mapers actually have to look out for and give even newer/better ideas for you. Let me know.
@hobbidude: Go Thanks. I realized it was better to lower the ground for the shoreline. I think I will start working on it again, but first I need to plan the changes in the playable area. The need to make pathing clearly visible is a serious one and I'll take it into account, but I've seen people using some doodads that won't block path lately (such as pipes) so who knows, maybe I'll find an option. I really want an expansion on the low ground like it's something you can only access when the tide is low, I may block the access to the shore with rocks or something like that so players wont get confused.
I actually mirrored it, but I didn't select everything to copy so the final result isn't perfect. And I made it only to see how it would look. I know it's best to way and only mirror it when the landscape is finished.
@ScorpSCII: Go LOL, by the looks of it I think it's fair if you tell me to go back to data, icons, whatever and stay away from terrain :-)
No, I'd like to give you advices, but I need to know wether you are trying to make an actual melee map (gameplay), or practicing your terraining (aesthetics).
@ScorpSCII: Go I'm trying to do both. Although I'm not a competitive melee palyer so I tend to go for aesthetics more than melee gameplay, as you can see by the idea of using walkable water.
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Ever since I saw those Xil doodads I wanted to make a map with them. And I'm a biologist so the idea of a marine map is great. But I'm not that good as a terrainer so I delayed it for a very long time. Today I gave it a try (a serious one at least). The focus of the map is the "low-tide" environment and the shores. I wanted to make some pathable areas where units get their feet on the water but I'm not sure that's a good idea. Another feature of this map is the huge rock formation at the center of the map, I want to make it look like a giant turtle-shaped rock, covered by moss and plants.
But when I decided to add the command centers to check the map size I saw it is huuuuge! And I'm not saure how I will fix it, maybe reduce some of the high areasand add more low level areas covered with sand. The map has no doodads right now but the shore and cliffs will feature rock formations and inside the watrer there will be sharks, corals and all kinds of marine-good-looking things.
Gameplay-wise the map focuses on different paths (high ground/low ground) interactions and some of these paths will be blocked by destructible rocks. I also plan to make the central rock formation block air pathing, but I'm not sure this is a good idea.
So I'm here to ask for tips and suggestions. I really want to finish this map as my first melee map.
I really rather like the direction your going but it does have some major mistakes that a lot of newer maps exhibit. I thinks its got a lot of potential. The main issue your having that i see a lot of new maps have is that your trying to shape the land by using large spaces between land masses to help define the land rather then instead using one general outline of the entire landmass and then use differences in terrain height after to define the actuall paths ( i hope that inverse example is clear enough). Only after can you then add small unpathable areas that you then largen to help bring the map out better. I mean is a whole lot better to start smaller and expand/improve the map then it is start big and filler to correct if that makes sense. the main areas i see issues is the center mass, the whole infront of i guess is the third and how the fourth/fifth connects or rather doesn't connect to the mainland.
As far as size have a look on tl as thats really the melee hotspot; if im not mistaken mains are roughly 30-35 cc big. I would also change your main; if the cc on map are at the mains they should be moved the smaller connected masses closer to the center sides of the maps (proportions would of course need to be changed to follow). Some mins/gas would be nice to just visually confirm where you plan on putting bases. I would be willing to help you outline the terrain if your interested or i can still just guide you through the direction i think it should go.
I have many more specific thoughts too, but i leave them for now and ask what yours are on everything i've just mentioned.
@hobbidude: Go I'd really appreciate the help. I'm planning to use the low ground too, it isn't there just to separate high ground areas. You can see ramps and there I plan a high-yield on low ground, as well as a path to the main with rocks blocking the ramp. And I still have the extra cliff level to use, I wont keep it for the central rock formation only. I can move the mains one cliff level up to make them look like rock formations too.
This is a very early stage, I was mainly testing how the water and shoreline could look. What do you think about the idea of using walkable shallow water somewhere? Do you think I can make it 2v2 if I keep that size?
No problemo. Unfortunately there're somes issues when working around beach style terrains and i think its very overdone lately especially with maps like belshir beach but by all means you can find a way to make it your own unique twist on it. As far as water and shoreline workins you've got a dilema to chose between; the main issue with shorelines is that the pathing needs to be incredible clear to players (for instance blizzard actually refuses to use any map that has even the smallest stream running through it). This would also mean for any land masses that have a shoreline the creeps maybe 1 or 2 unit distance into water is maybe ok but pretty frowned upon (visually players will love it but when playing any chance of something being unclear espeically bounds is a no no). So think that any area you want to have a nice shoreline on, then the shoreline is going to have to be on the lowest cliff level and the actually land be on the next cliff level which might limit you to using only 2 cliff levels for the mainland. Now i guess with something like your high yeild 5th you can may trick it if you use a no cliff level to define it with the water level just below; then merge the flat sides of the area around into the shoreline you have since the shoreline is actually just below the land height. That too is another issues, raising /lower terrain height which is again another no no but is a little easier to set away with if its very small. Also any changes you would want to do for like shorline anyways would be done top down ie your lowering the land to meet water rather than raising land to be out of water. Remember too that water conflicts with building areas too.
I can't quite see how you would make this into a 2s maps without drastic changes, but i wouldn't worry about it being to big or small at the moment as you will probably change it a lot during the development process. It looks too like you've actually drawn out the entire map to as its not mirrored ie you actually only need to make half a map :).
If all thinks sounds reasonable and clear here'd how i would move forward. Decide the style on how you would like to proceed with the shoreline and the cliffs levels you will have availalble. Start with main at the position and height i suggested and make it a decent looking size comparing with cc, mins ramp buildin blocks and all ( make a sim city if you have too) or even use the map analyze to find the actually size and adjust. Then move to the nat and other bases in order. As i said before do no use water/cliffline to define the shape yet, use difference in terrain height ie the landmass should have edges that connect to each other with maybe some rooms/spaces where there are small holes (the far outside of the entire land mass can of course just sheer off. You can even have thinks like make it so the the high yield fifth is actually just below or infont of the map so it could possibly be a 3rd for the opposite. Ifs funny because this map is really starting to reminds of the new hots winter map blizzard uses for their tvz demo.
If you really have a lot of issues can you always forward me the map and i show what i mean better, but i hope most of this is actually helping, showing things melee mapers actually have to look out for and give even newer/better ideas for you. Let me know.
You're doing this only to improve your aesthetic skills, right?
@hobbidude: Go Thanks. I realized it was better to lower the ground for the shoreline. I think I will start working on it again, but first I need to plan the changes in the playable area. The need to make pathing clearly visible is a serious one and I'll take it into account, but I've seen people using some doodads that won't block path lately (such as pipes) so who knows, maybe I'll find an option. I really want an expansion on the low ground like it's something you can only access when the tide is low, I may block the access to the shore with rocks or something like that so players wont get confused.
I actually mirrored it, but I didn't select everything to copy so the final result isn't perfect. And I made it only to see how it would look. I know it's best to way and only mirror it when the landscape is finished.
@ScorpSCII: Go LOL, by the looks of it I think it's fair if you tell me to go back to data, icons, whatever and stay away from terrain :-)
@SoulFilcher: Go
No, I'd like to give you advices, but I need to know wether you are trying to make an actual melee map (gameplay), or practicing your terraining (aesthetics).
@ScorpSCII: Go I'm trying to do both. Although I'm not a competitive melee palyer so I tend to go for aesthetics more than melee gameplay, as you can see by the idea of using walkable water.