So I posted this to the Blizzard forums but I know a lot of people here don't read them much anymore. I wanted to get any feedback you guys had on this. Before I paste it over, lemme just explain a little what it is I'm trying to do.
I personally believe a big reason we don't see as many maps on Starcraft II as we did in Warcraft III is because there is too great a barrier in terms of difficulty in getting new people to use the data editor. I understand it very well now, but I know personally it took me well over 40-60 hours before I was truly comfortable using it. I don't think the average person has that kind of time to understand what an actor really is, how to do the events for it properly, what parts make a fully customized unit, etc.
So in short, the unit wizard is designed for beginner data editors to make basic custom units. You can make a structures that spawn whatever units you want or units with custom damage and stats. You'll still need to do behaviors, buffs, and effects and such afterward, but this gives you a good template to start with.
---------
What is the unit wizard?
The unit wizard is a tool for beginning map authors to create their own custom units based on existing units within the editor.
What type of units can the unit wizard create?
The unit wizard will create basic structures and units. Examples include a custom barracks that creates custom units, a missile turret customized for tower defense (will only do damage, effects still added the traditional way in data editor), or a buffed super marine to be used in your custom map.
What are the limits of the unit wizard?
The unit wizard will only create a stationary or moving unit based on your selections, with the ability to use its weapon and do the damage you specify.
The unit wizard will NOT do the following:
- Add effects, behaviors, or buffs to the weapon or unit
- Create brand new graphical effects
- Allow you to specify abilities for a unit
What is the overall goal of the unit wizard?
Our goal here is when you're done with the unit wizard you will have a basic template that can be easily modified to make your ideal unit. The model, actors, unit, weapon, damage, and footprint will be completed, leaving you to fine-tune any further details such as ramp-up speeds.
Ideally the typical user will only need to define damage counters, customize the command card, and apply effects from the weapon (such as for custom TD towers) after the wizard is done in order to have a functioning custom unit.
In this screenshot we see a new menu option available from the right click menu in the data editor. Choosing it begins the all-new unit wizard for beginning map editors.
The first step is selecting a unit to base our new unit on. The details of this unit will determine things by default such as model, projectiles used for the weapon, move speed, actors, etc.
Now we're in the unit wizard. It's going to walk your hand through creating your very own custom unit, with a little help from the initial unit you selected. When this process is completed a brand new unit will be added to the data editor with working abilities, actors, models, etc. that can be modified like any other unit.
As you see, each time you make a selection a new menu appears asking you to further clarify what sort of unit this is going to be. The options revealed after each step can potentially change based on your selection.
Finally, when you're ready to set the basic statistics of the weapon, you can punch them into a simple field. Of course we know there's a lot more details to these units, but everything that isn't asked for here will be carried over from the unit we chose initially when starting the wizard.
I wholeheartedly agree that we could use a unit wizard. Unfortunately I don't think it'll happen. I even brought it up with one of the Blizzard devs on mapster IRC, and it basically boils down to if they don't use it, we won't get it.
On that note, I just learned how to make custom units a week ago - and I ABSOLUTELY HATE IT. A wizard would definitely help speed up the process and remove a lot of the guesswork that's involved. Even now, I have to refer to tutorial videos to make sure I'm using the right settings each time to make sure things don't break on me.
I definitely agree with you that it would be a nice tool for novice mappers. That said, I don't think it's going to be implemented soon, even with blizzard's increased focus on mapping. That said, it might be possible for us to create a 3rd party tool that does the same thing (although it very likely couldn't be as streamlined as a built-in one). You would either have to generate xml for the user to paste in, or have them save the map as a components file and them create the units.
You can easily write your own custom unit generator.... could be a stand alone program that just generates the XML that you then copy and paste into your map.....
I suggest instead of pasting your imagination, of what you think blizzard should do, You should start working on making it reality.
But really theres too many options involved for making units.....
and making new custom units is pretty easy really... why do you see a need for a wizard?
I was talking to one of the devs a few weeks back about this, and he said, that since there is no monthly subscription, that they cant from a buisness standpoint deliver extra content constantly, and that they rely on the community to create 3rd party tools such as this one.
Third party tools defeats the purpose of making this easy to use. As an aside, I am not a programmer and could not create such a program.
My point with making this is that data editor needs a wizard to assist new editors in making their own maps. It is too difficult right now. There are no third party tools that make it easy.
The galaxy editor team seems to be interested in the idea. Deletarius was writing on the official forum indicating he had asked FockeWolf to make such a design scheme so they could judge for themselves:
Quote from Deletarius:
Yes, I did ask you to lay out a UI for a potential wizard system, however I also asked you to create a workflow that would accompany the UI that you created, which was not done. When I asked you to walk me through the specifics of your system, I unfortunately couldn’t get any concrete idea in my head of how the system was supposed to work.
So at the least, there is interest shown by Blizzard in explaining what a wizard would accomplish and how it would work.
I was talking to one of the devs a few weeks back about this, and he said, that since there is no monthly subscription, that they cant from a buisness standpoint deliver extra content constantly, and that they rely on the community to create 3rd party tools such as this one.
That doesn't make any sense. Using that logic, they shouldn't be updating the editor at all. Why add a UI design tool? Why add cinematic mode? Why add anything unless it comes packed in the expansion? It's not a good reason.
That doesn't make any sense. Using that logic, they shouldn't be updating the editor at all. Why add a UI design tool? Why add cinematic mode? Why add anything unless it comes packed in the expansion? It's not a good reason.
They said they can't add things consistently. Two updates in several years is not exactly consistent ;)
It really shouldn't be too hard to create a program that just writes the xml for you. But, at least as far as I know, there's no way to create a "plug in" for the editor that works right along side it. So users would have to copy/paste the xml themselves (which is too much work) or save the map as a components file (which means they can't work on the map and use the wizard simultaneously).
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Feel free to Send me a PM if you have any questions/concerns!
@Lucavious: Go
Third party tools are pretty easy to use if its just copy and paste. Unless your an idiot.
Sorry to come off as negative.... but its not to hard to make units..... that statement alone tells me you haven't spent enough time in the editor.
The goal of the editor wasn't ever to be be easy....... Its super complicated and advance data usage is required to make cool shit.
It may be a steep experience curve but ..... there's so much you can do that you couldn't possibly make a wizard that touched on half of the shit with out that being too complicated itself.
whats so hard about duplicating units anyways...... thats basically what your looking for?
They said they can't add things consistently. Two updates in several years is not exactly consistent ;)
It really shouldn't be too hard to create a program that just writes the xml for you. But, at least as far as I know, there's no way to create a "plug in" for the editor that works right along side it. So users would have to copy/paste the xml themselves (which is too much work) or save the map as a components file (which means they can't work on the map and use the wizard simultaneously).
I appreciate you bringing that up as a potential option. I don't want to sound ungrateful or dismiss it, but my goal with this mockup would be to make the editor accessible to all players, which would mean having direct integration with the editor. The only reason I'm even pursuing this is because a Blizzard employee mentioned they were interested in ideas.
Sorry to come off as negative.... but its not to hard to make units..... that statement alone tells me you haven't spent enough time in the editor.
The goal of the editor wasn't ever to be be easy....... Its super complicated and advance data usage is required to make cool shit.
It may be a steep experience curve but ..... there's so much you can do that you couldn't possibly make a wizard that touched on half of the shit with out that being too complicated itself.
whats so hard about duplicating units anyways...... thats basically what your looking for?
If you've made any maps, you know duplicating is not simple and not without bugs. You know the actor frequently breaks, to the point where it's easier to not duplicate it and just modify the original. You know sometimes unit names revert back to the unit it was based on for no reason. You also know the model sometimes won't correctly attach to the unit data and appear as a blob in the game.
To a new editor, the duplicate function is completely unusable and results in hours of frustration while you search google for why nothing is working.
I remember the duplicate function didn't used to work back in he beta, but I haven't had any duplication issues recently. Now, it's really a case of "Duplicate Unit, Check box next to actor, maybe check box by weapon, hit okay".
@Lucavious: Go Third party tools are pretty easy to use if its just copy and paste. Unless your an idiot.
Yeah, it's easy to copy/paste. But you have to go download an obscure third party tool, which is too complicated for something that's supposed to simplify your job.
Either way, duplication seems to be simple and stable enough for new users to use, at least for now.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Feel free to Send me a PM if you have any questions/concerns!
To be fair, the last time I tried duplicating units was when I worked on Marine Arena probably about a year ago. I should give it another shot and see if things have changed, but when I had to duplicate about 18 units the results were a nightmare. Nothing worked right away; had issues like roaches without footprints and being visible while burrowed, ghosts were constantly having their names reverted back to the duplicated units' name, marauders suddenly doing double damage to units within 0 range, and the list goes on. I can't imagine how an amateur would have handled those issues.
I think there should be a custom unit wizard and a custom building wizard. They should pop out of the data edtitor, like the publishing module does, to prevent conflicts and emphasize the rigid workflow.
The wizards should only use ready made components. No custom effects, weapons etc., just stuff that is already there. The wizard should be designed like most wizards: slides with next and cancel buttons. There should also be a link to a dedicated forum thread (help).
The main idea behind the wizard is to put the unit together, not make adjustments to the components.
All slides should have a cancel button that runs a callback of the database editons.
The most complicated parts are how to add the requirement and upgrad validators to this... I don't really know how to do that. Since the target group are people who just want to put together something somewhat custom, the default validators for each upgrade/armor/weapon should be used. Simplicity is key.
Unit wizard
Slide 1. Introduction to this wizard. What can it do, what are the limitations?
Slide 2. Name the unit (ingame name) as well as editor name with pre/postfix. Also choose a base unit.
Slide 3. Life & movement. Movement: unit speed, Checkboxes for unit type (massive, biological etc.), can fly. Life starting value and regeneration speed.
Slide 4. Armor. Add armors from a list. When adding an armor type, there should also be a link from the upgrade side to this armor type. This means that if I choose terran infantry armor to my unit, the terran infantry upgrade also applies to this unit.
Make a checkbox for shields. If unit has shields, enable fields for starting values and regeneration speed.
Sliede 5. Weapon Add weapons from a list of weapons. When an weapon is added, the unit should also be added to the related weapons upgrades.
Slide 6. Passive abilities. Checkboxes for detection (use a default range of 10), permanent cloak, cliff-jumping, etc. Each ability should have the possibility to require an upgrade that unlocks it. So
Slide 7. Active abilities. Cloak, spells etc. that requires special hotkeys.
Slide 8. Construction. Which buildings should the unit be able to build/create? add them from a list.
Slide 9. Command card and unit icon. Design the command card and how the unit appears in the selection area (its button).
Slide 10. Finish. Make it possible to export this unit as a standalone mod.
Building wizard
Slide 1. Introduce the user to the wizard, what are its limitations and purpose.
Slide 2. Name the building, both ingame and editor name with prefix, so that the player knows what to look for in the lists. Choose a building template to base it on.
Slide 3. Life. How much life should it have? Shields? Add some checkboxes with unit type with bilogogical, (structure type should be checked and grayed out).
Slide 4. Armor. Which race should it belong to? If protoss is selected: it should automatically get the protoss structure armor types. The building should also be pushed to the related upgrades. Make a checkbox for shields. Adding an armor type automatically adds the building to the related upgrades.
Slide 5. Weapons. If the building has a turret, this is where you add that. Choose a turret from a list of options.
Slide 6. Passive abilities. Can it detect? Is it cloaked?
Slide 7. Active abilities. Should it be able to have a target point? Should it be able to cast spells like chrono boost or scanner sweep? Add them from a list.
Slide 8. Construction. Which units should it be able to construct? Add them from a list.
Slide 9. Command card design and icon selection. Choose an icon and place the ability/construction related buttons to the command card.
Slide 10. Finish. Create the building and make it possible to export it to a mod.
So I posted this to the Blizzard forums but I know a lot of people here don't read them much anymore. I wanted to get any feedback you guys had on this. Before I paste it over, lemme just explain a little what it is I'm trying to do.
I personally believe a big reason we don't see as many maps on Starcraft II as we did in Warcraft III is because there is too great a barrier in terms of difficulty in getting new people to use the data editor. I understand it very well now, but I know personally it took me well over 40-60 hours before I was truly comfortable using it. I don't think the average person has that kind of time to understand what an actor really is, how to do the events for it properly, what parts make a fully customized unit, etc.
So in short, the unit wizard is designed for beginner data editors to make basic custom units. You can make a structures that spawn whatever units you want or units with custom damage and stats. You'll still need to do behaviors, buffs, and effects and such afterward, but this gives you a good template to start with.
---------What is the unit wizard?
The unit wizard is a tool for beginning map authors to create their own custom units based on existing units within the editor.
What type of units can the unit wizard create?
The unit wizard will create basic structures and units. Examples include a custom barracks that creates custom units, a missile turret customized for tower defense (will only do damage, effects still added the traditional way in data editor), or a buffed super marine to be used in your custom map.
What are the limits of the unit wizard?
The unit wizard will only create a stationary or moving unit based on your selections, with the ability to use its weapon and do the damage you specify.
The unit wizard will NOT do the following:
- Add effects, behaviors, or buffs to the weapon or unit - Create brand new graphical effects - Allow you to specify abilities for a unit
What is the overall goal of the unit wizard?
Our goal here is when you're done with the unit wizard you will have a basic template that can be easily modified to make your ideal unit. The model, actors, unit, weapon, damage, and footprint will be completed, leaving you to fine-tune any further details such as ramp-up speeds.
Ideally the typical user will only need to define damage counters, customize the command card, and apply effects from the weapon (such as for custom TD towers) after the wizard is done in order to have a functioning custom unit.
In this screenshot we see a new menu option available from the right click menu in the data editor. Choosing it begins the all-new unit wizard for beginning map editors.
The first step is selecting a unit to base our new unit on. The details of this unit will determine things by default such as model, projectiles used for the weapon, move speed, actors, etc.
Now we're in the unit wizard. It's going to walk your hand through creating your very own custom unit, with a little help from the initial unit you selected. When this process is completed a brand new unit will be added to the data editor with working abilities, actors, models, etc. that can be modified like any other unit.
As you see, each time you make a selection a new menu appears asking you to further clarify what sort of unit this is going to be. The options revealed after each step can potentially change based on your selection.
Finally, when you're ready to set the basic statistics of the weapon, you can punch them into a simple field. Of course we know there's a lot more details to these units, but everything that isn't asked for here will be carried over from the unit we chose initially when starting the wizard.
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Curse PremiumI wholeheartedly agree that we could use a unit wizard. Unfortunately I don't think it'll happen. I even brought it up with one of the Blizzard devs on mapster IRC, and it basically boils down to if they don't use it, we won't get it.
On that note, I just learned how to make custom units a week ago - and I ABSOLUTELY HATE IT. A wizard would definitely help speed up the process and remove a lot of the guesswork that's involved. Even now, I have to refer to tutorial videos to make sure I'm using the right settings each time to make sure things don't break on me.
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Curse Premium@Lucavious: Go
I definitely agree with you that it would be a nice tool for novice mappers. That said, I don't think it's going to be implemented soon, even with blizzard's increased focus on mapping. That said, it might be possible for us to create a 3rd party tool that does the same thing (although it very likely couldn't be as streamlined as a built-in one). You would either have to generate xml for the user to paste in, or have them save the map as a components file and them create the units.
@Lucavious: Go
You can easily write your own custom unit generator.... could be a stand alone program that just generates the XML that you then copy and paste into your map.....
I suggest instead of pasting your imagination, of what you think blizzard should do, You should start working on making it reality.
But really theres too many options involved for making units.....
and making new custom units is pretty easy really... why do you see a need for a wizard?
I was talking to one of the devs a few weeks back about this, and he said, that since there is no monthly subscription, that they cant from a buisness standpoint deliver extra content constantly, and that they rely on the community to create 3rd party tools such as this one.
Third party tools defeats the purpose of making this easy to use. As an aside, I am not a programmer and could not create such a program.
My point with making this is that data editor needs a wizard to assist new editors in making their own maps. It is too difficult right now. There are no third party tools that make it easy.
The galaxy editor team seems to be interested in the idea. Deletarius was writing on the official forum indicating he had asked FockeWolf to make such a design scheme so they could judge for themselves:
So at the least, there is interest shown by Blizzard in explaining what a wizard would accomplish and how it would work.
EDIT: And concerning this:
That doesn't make any sense. Using that logic, they shouldn't be updating the editor at all. Why add a UI design tool? Why add cinematic mode? Why add anything unless it comes packed in the expansion? It's not a good reason.
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Curse PremiumThey said they can't add things consistently. Two updates in several years is not exactly consistent ;)
It really shouldn't be too hard to create a program that just writes the xml for you. But, at least as far as I know, there's no way to create a "plug in" for the editor that works right along side it. So users would have to copy/paste the xml themselves (which is too much work) or save the map as a components file (which means they can't work on the map and use the wizard simultaneously).
@Lucavious: Go Third party tools are pretty easy to use if its just copy and paste. Unless your an idiot.
Sorry to come off as negative.... but its not to hard to make units..... that statement alone tells me you haven't spent enough time in the editor.
The goal of the editor wasn't ever to be be easy....... Its super complicated and advance data usage is required to make cool shit.
It may be a steep experience curve but ..... there's so much you can do that you couldn't possibly make a wizard that touched on half of the shit with out that being too complicated itself.
whats so hard about duplicating units anyways...... thats basically what your looking for?
I appreciate you bringing that up as a potential option. I don't want to sound ungrateful or dismiss it, but my goal with this mockup would be to make the editor accessible to all players, which would mean having direct integration with the editor. The only reason I'm even pursuing this is because a Blizzard employee mentioned they were interested in ideas.
If you've made any maps, you know duplicating is not simple and not without bugs. You know the actor frequently breaks, to the point where it's easier to not duplicate it and just modify the original. You know sometimes unit names revert back to the unit it was based on for no reason. You also know the model sometimes won't correctly attach to the unit data and appear as a blob in the game.
To a new editor, the duplicate function is completely unusable and results in hours of frustration while you search google for why nothing is working.
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Curse PremiumI remember the duplicate function didn't used to work back in he beta, but I haven't had any duplication issues recently. Now, it's really a case of "Duplicate Unit, Check box next to actor, maybe check box by weapon, hit okay".
Yeah, it's easy to copy/paste. But you have to go download an obscure third party tool, which is too complicated for something that's supposed to simplify your job.
Either way, duplication seems to be simple and stable enough for new users to use, at least for now.
To be fair, the last time I tried duplicating units was when I worked on Marine Arena probably about a year ago. I should give it another shot and see if things have changed, but when I had to duplicate about 18 units the results were a nightmare. Nothing worked right away; had issues like roaches without footprints and being visible while burrowed, ghosts were constantly having their names reverted back to the duplicated units' name, marauders suddenly doing double damage to units within 0 range, and the list goes on. I can't imagine how an amateur would have handled those issues.
I think there should be a custom unit wizard and a custom building wizard. They should pop out of the data edtitor, like the publishing module does, to prevent conflicts and emphasize the rigid workflow.
The wizards should only use ready made components. No custom effects, weapons etc., just stuff that is already there. The wizard should be designed like most wizards: slides with next and cancel buttons. There should also be a link to a dedicated forum thread (help).
The main idea behind the wizard is to put the unit together, not make adjustments to the components.
All slides should have a cancel button that runs a callback of the database editons.
The most complicated parts are how to add the requirement and upgrad validators to this... I don't really know how to do that. Since the target group are people who just want to put together something somewhat custom, the default validators for each upgrade/armor/weapon should be used. Simplicity is key.
Unit wizard
Building wizard