I've been exploring Battle.net popularity on the EU servers (after they stopped resetting the ranking) and here are some first notes.
The popularity seems to work like this: it is 1 "point" per unique user playing the game the last hour. So, if you want your map to get popular, you have to fill lobby with other people than your friends :(
Also, many maps are using custom team layout (Personnalisé in the screenshot). However the bad news is when you add a new one, there's also the default layout. And the default layout is set by default when a lobby is created by double clicking the map. Result: there are two versions of each map, and the most popular being the fucked up one :(
As a conclusion, there will be like 10 played maps on bnet and all the others will only be forgotten!
1 point per unique player in the last hour? Can you confirm this? :o
That would fuck up new maps even more, but longer/biggers maps would finally have their chance now.
Ugh I'm getting so annoyed by this popularity system. I think we should just go back to the old one until the 9/10 DOTA issue crops up again.
Seriously everyone is saying to do so, except maybe the makers of the beautiful, professional, and perfect maps on page 1 *cough*.
It's very demoralizing as a good map-maker to be hindered by the system. This isn't a dumb 'we need chat channels and LAN' rant... chat channels and LAN doesn't wreck the game... the custom game system unfortunately is a lot more important... and I guess it just didn't work out as well as we all thought.
All of the top map makers agree we need a better system asap.
Anyway, to get back to vjeux's actual post. This unique user thing is great in a way... means when people get tired of a map they'll go try a different one and the system will reward that. However, they'll probably still pick from page 1. Well it's a start.
Everything so far has been better than phase 1's popularity, except only for maps that are already somewhat popular. On the first day of phase 1 custom maps, I released Infection and it was on page 1 for 1-2 days. GREAT! Except back then the system screwed me because my map was re-playable (>30 mins) and 12 players. GG. I updated it with new versions ASAP but they sat on page 8; people played my buggier version for hours...
However, at least later on I was able to test it just by bumping it up to page 2. Now, I'll have to release it right away on the 27th... otherwise there's no hope.
I just wish I could take my map, publish it, go online and host, fill a pub in 30 secs and then go. Done. People would like it and re-host... thus the map moves up. Right now, this first step is missing with this system. And it's not like I can go into a chat channel and find 6 drifters to play my map. I'd have to go find some friends...
I suggested a very simple system on the Beta forums before they wiped them....
Thumbs up / thumbs down option near each map, unlocked after you played them at least once.
- Popular maps: maps with 1000+ votes, sorted by percentage of positive votes.
- Loved maps: maps you thumbed up, and you are willing to play again.
- New releases: maps with less than 1000 votes, sorted by publishing date (top: older)
- Banned maps: meant to rescue maps you thumbed down / ignored by mistake.
No need for periodic scans in lobbies, just basic tabs generating little server traffic.
Probably not the perfect solution, but an effective one imho.
New map? Great visibility until it is fully "evaluated"
Great map? Highlighted until you try it and bookmark/discard it.
Bad map? Pushed into oblivion after 1000 votes. Let's face it, SC2 will be flooded by those.
There should be a most played or recently statistic and a map rating that people can give. The former gives information about what maps have been popular and which maps are currently hot while the latter can tell you more about whether the map is actually good or not.
A simple thing would be to sort the lobby random like in Warcraft 3. And also display the map popularity. This way we know for sure which maps are being played a lot, but we can also see other maps.
I'm assuming some people's "coughs" are directed at me, given that each time I put up a new version, there is at least one bug, somewhere, that causes the game to be completely unplayable.
My map is on page one, but I didn't do anything to put it there. People just play it. I have no other choice than to upload it in order to get public tests done. I'm not a very outgoing person, and don't really have the means or the social skills to approach people privately for testing. As a result, a buggy map is on the first page.
Worst of all, I rarely even get to be in a game to watch people test it. Even when the map had game-breaking (literally) bugs, it would still make it near the top. People also mass bunkers and then get angry when they have no attack. It says bluntly in the tooltip for the bunker that it requires you put units in it. Just like the actual game! I don't get people. They are lemmings.
The popularity system doesn't do much to cater to the developers. Blizzard's argument is that people should post on community sites to get a following or a test group. But, like I said, I don't know how to do that. The minute this requires social interaction is when it becomes a chore for me. They've managed to turn something I love into something I fear.
If your map is Vexal's tower D, I haven't seen it on US. Not sure if you mean a different map.
But you make a good point. People actually LOVE game-breakingly bugged games. They want to exploit and take advantage and that's why bugged maps are on top. That's my theory at least. The other obvious reason is you hit join custom games, you pick the top one, and you go. The good thing is about unique users is that if people play your map once and realize it's bugged and stop... they won't replay it and it'll fall. Then your new one will hopefully rise.
Your situation highlights a critical issue. You can't easily test it. I'm lucky that I've made a bunch of friends now; but I was in your shoes in warcraft 3... and luckily it was so easy to test back then before doing a full release. It's not really your fault that your map is bugged on the top of the list. You don't have the tool to do any better.
Although, you should always join your game after releasing it. But you're right, people are lemmings.
Looks like it's not unique users per hour, there's just a "cooldown" so that the same host can't boost it over and over. Yeah longer and bigger maps are STILL fucked up, even more so now.
A 20-minutes, 8-players maps is still granting +1 just like a 5-minutes, 2-players map.
Well, Infection got on page 1 again. But it randomly splits the players and it takes forever to load. I didn't do anything except save it in the release editor...
Personally I would like to see the old SC1/WC3 system put into place with the popularity system as an optional view that you could toggle to.
But yes, the popularity system is pretty abysmal. As an add-on to the old system it would have been a great new feature...but as a full on replacement it's a terrible idea.
I've actually put releasing my Uber Probe map on hold since I believe it would need some initial testing to get things right and I don't think the popularity system could do it justice. So I will wait a while to see if Blizzard makes a comment. Currently I have it working against CPU only and the AI doesn't really work very well for it considering the nature of my map. It's really supposed to be an FFA map with no AI at all.
If anything is a good sign of it being changed in the future the feedback towards the popularity system on the newly launched SC2 official forums is overwhelmingly negative. Blizzard showed with their change of heart from the Real-ID fiasco that they still listen to their fans, so hopefully they will listen again.
This popularity system is p* me off. I just hope my map Debates get some people.
As much as I appreciate the time you invested in this map, do you honestly believe that such kind of game is something people want to play just few days after SC2 release?
I for one see this kind of maps more as proof of concept rather than something viable for long-term playing. I mean, why on earth would I want to play discussion game using a 10GB client?
The new system is create for the super casual gamer who wants to get on and play the most popular tower defense game, but for everyone else it is just so limiting.
Created for the super casual gamer.
That's why.
Remember, the casual gamer thinks most popular = best. (Which is why the sheeple keep buying Blizzard products!) So it only makes sense that Blizzard, having done their own market research, implemented the current system so the sheeple can extend this attitude towards custom games as well.
......
Ps. Friend bumps are by far not enough. If you can drum up 50 people (in a single region) and have them all play at the exact same time, this will net you 8-9 games for a six player map. That's still around page eight.
That wasn't even an issue. Here's a suggestion: go back to the old format, and have it so all games for the same map fold together and appear under the same heading. Click on it to fold out. That wasn't hard, was it?
Yeah that would be perfect. Blizz must have seen it as the issue though, else why switch to popularity and only popularity :/
The most popular map makers you mean? :P The game has been out for a day and we've never been able to play the best maps anyway, not in beta, not now. So 'top map maker' means 'map maker who has been in the sc2mapster news a lot or posted a lot on the forum'. It's so easy to subconsciously make the popular=best association, isn't it?
:)
My theory is that Blizzard themselves rose to power in a similar environment: massive benefits for the most popular developer, very strong network effects, so now they think this is the way the world should be run.
By top map-makers I mean the entire map making community (people I've talked to in IRC and so on) and not just random forum trolls. Sorry I didn't clarify. I wanted to mention "top" map makers by meaning our community of mappers who are basically contributing to the entire future of the sc2 custom maps world... And yes it is easy to make the popular = best association because if they have things to news, it means they're making progress to releasing something. Not everything can be applied in this way though.
We'll probably look back on this and laugh...
I do like that releasing new versions of a map overrides the old one now... if we combine this with lazbro's idea of going to the old list except with foldering of maps... sounds awesome!
It's kind of a bummer to be working on my new map and thinking how will I ever get anyone to play this.
Oh and Vexal your map is cool! Bit slow though I found. I love team tower D's; your map is not what I am referring to when i was coughing.
I've been exploring Battle.net popularity on the EU servers (after they stopped resetting the ranking) and here are some first notes.
The popularity seems to work like this: it is 1 "point" per unique user playing the game the last hour. So, if you want your map to get popular, you have to fill lobby with other people than your friends :(
Also, many maps are using custom team layout (Personnalisé in the screenshot). However the bad news is when you add a new one, there's also the default layout. And the default layout is set by default when a lobby is created by double clicking the map. Result: there are two versions of each map, and the most popular being the fucked up one :(
As a conclusion, there will be like 10 played maps on bnet and all the others will only be forgotten!
@vjeux: Go
It still the same like beta, different variant to seperate game mode like dota game. Still, it sucks
1 point per unique player in the last hour? Can you confirm this? :o
That would fuck up new maps even more, but longer/biggers maps would finally have their chance now.
Okay I can confirm you can no longer boost your own map.
Yes there still was a less efficient way during phase 2 :)
Ugh I'm getting so annoyed by this popularity system. I think we should just go back to the old one until the 9/10 DOTA issue crops up again.
Seriously everyone is saying to do so, except maybe the makers of the beautiful, professional, and perfect maps on page 1 *cough*.
It's very demoralizing as a good map-maker to be hindered by the system. This isn't a dumb 'we need chat channels and LAN' rant... chat channels and LAN doesn't wreck the game... the custom game system unfortunately is a lot more important... and I guess it just didn't work out as well as we all thought.
All of the top map makers agree we need a better system asap.
Anyway, to get back to vjeux's actual post. This unique user thing is great in a way... means when people get tired of a map they'll go try a different one and the system will reward that. However, they'll probably still pick from page 1. Well it's a start.
Everything so far has been better than phase 1's popularity, except only for maps that are already somewhat popular. On the first day of phase 1 custom maps, I released Infection and it was on page 1 for 1-2 days. GREAT! Except back then the system screwed me because my map was re-playable (>30 mins) and 12 players. GG. I updated it with new versions ASAP but they sat on page 8; people played my buggier version for hours...
However, at least later on I was able to test it just by bumping it up to page 2. Now, I'll have to release it right away on the 27th... otherwise there's no hope.
I just wish I could take my map, publish it, go online and host, fill a pub in 30 secs and then go. Done. People would like it and re-host... thus the map moves up. Right now, this first step is missing with this system. And it's not like I can go into a chat channel and find 6 drifters to play my map. I'd have to go find some friends...
prays for the future
I suggested a very simple system on the Beta forums before they wiped them....
Thumbs up / thumbs down option near each map, unlocked after you played them at least once.
- Popular maps: maps with 1000+ votes, sorted by percentage of positive votes.
- Loved maps: maps you thumbed up, and you are willing to play again.
- New releases: maps with less than 1000 votes, sorted by publishing date (top: older)
- Banned maps: meant to rescue maps you thumbed down / ignored by mistake.
No need for periodic scans in lobbies, just basic tabs generating little server traffic.
Probably not the perfect solution, but an effective one imho.
New map? Great visibility until it is fully "evaluated"
Great map? Highlighted until you try it and bookmark/discard it.
Bad map? Pushed into oblivion after 1000 votes. Let's face it, SC2 will be flooded by those.
There should be a most played or recently statistic and a map rating that people can give. The former gives information about what maps have been popular and which maps are currently hot while the latter can tell you more about whether the map is actually good or not.
A simple thing would be to sort the lobby random like in Warcraft 3. And also display the map popularity. This way we know for sure which maps are being played a lot, but we can also see other maps.
Cool much better than beta
@OneTwoSC: Go
I'm assuming some people's "coughs" are directed at me, given that each time I put up a new version, there is at least one bug, somewhere, that causes the game to be completely unplayable.
My map is on page one, but I didn't do anything to put it there. People just play it. I have no other choice than to upload it in order to get public tests done. I'm not a very outgoing person, and don't really have the means or the social skills to approach people privately for testing. As a result, a buggy map is on the first page.
Worst of all, I rarely even get to be in a game to watch people test it. Even when the map had game-breaking (literally) bugs, it would still make it near the top. People also mass bunkers and then get angry when they have no attack. It says bluntly in the tooltip for the bunker that it requires you put units in it. Just like the actual game! I don't get people. They are lemmings.
The popularity system doesn't do much to cater to the developers. Blizzard's argument is that people should post on community sites to get a following or a test group. But, like I said, I don't know how to do that. The minute this requires social interaction is when it becomes a chore for me. They've managed to turn something I love into something I fear.
This popularity system is p* me off. I just hope my map Debates get some people.
@Vexal: Go
If your map is Vexal's tower D, I haven't seen it on US. Not sure if you mean a different map.
But you make a good point. People actually LOVE game-breakingly bugged games. They want to exploit and take advantage and that's why bugged maps are on top. That's my theory at least. The other obvious reason is you hit join custom games, you pick the top one, and you go. The good thing is about unique users is that if people play your map once and realize it's bugged and stop... they won't replay it and it'll fall. Then your new one will hopefully rise.
Your situation highlights a critical issue. You can't easily test it. I'm lucky that I've made a bunch of friends now; but I was in your shoes in warcraft 3... and luckily it was so easy to test back then before doing a full release. It's not really your fault that your map is bugged on the top of the list. You don't have the tool to do any better.
Although, you should always join your game after releasing it. But you're right, people are lemmings.
Looks like it's not unique users per hour, there's just a "cooldown" so that the same host can't boost it over and over. Yeah longer and bigger maps are STILL fucked up, even more so now.
A 20-minutes, 8-players maps is still granting +1 just like a 5-minutes, 2-players map.
@WhiskeeGX: Go
Awe damn really? Sigh.
Well, Infection got on page 1 again. But it randomly splits the players and it takes forever to load. I didn't do anything except save it in the release editor...
Odd.
Either way, it's time for a change.
Personally I would like to see the old SC1/WC3 system put into place with the popularity system as an optional view that you could toggle to.
But yes, the popularity system is pretty abysmal. As an add-on to the old system it would have been a great new feature...but as a full on replacement it's a terrible idea.
I've actually put releasing my Uber Probe map on hold since I believe it would need some initial testing to get things right and I don't think the popularity system could do it justice. So I will wait a while to see if Blizzard makes a comment. Currently I have it working against CPU only and the AI doesn't really work very well for it considering the nature of my map. It's really supposed to be an FFA map with no AI at all.
If anything is a good sign of it being changed in the future the feedback towards the popularity system on the newly launched SC2 official forums is overwhelmingly negative. Blizzard showed with their change of heart from the Real-ID fiasco that they still listen to their fans, so hopefully they will listen again.
As much as I appreciate the time you invested in this map, do you honestly believe that such kind of game is something people want to play just few days after SC2 release? I for one see this kind of maps more as proof of concept rather than something viable for long-term playing. I mean, why on earth would I want to play discussion game using a 10GB client?
I found a great post on the b.net forums:
Created for the super casual gamer.
That's why.
Remember, the casual gamer thinks most popular = best. (Which is why the sheeple keep buying Blizzard products!) So it only makes sense that Blizzard, having done their own market research, implemented the current system so the sheeple can extend this attitude towards custom games as well.
......
Ps. Friend bumps are by far not enough. If you can drum up 50 people (in a single region) and have them all play at the exact same time, this will net you 8-9 games for a six player map. That's still around page eight.
That wasn't even an issue. Here's a suggestion: go back to the old format, and have it so all games for the same map fold together and appear under the same heading. Click on it to fold out. That wasn't hard, was it?
Yeah that would be perfect. Blizz must have seen it as the issue though, else why switch to popularity and only popularity :/
The most popular map makers you mean? :P The game has been out for a day and we've never been able to play the best maps anyway, not in beta, not now. So 'top map maker' means 'map maker who has been in the sc2mapster news a lot or posted a lot on the forum'. It's so easy to subconsciously make the popular=best association, isn't it? :) My theory is that Blizzard themselves rose to power in a similar environment: massive benefits for the most popular developer, very strong network effects, so now they think this is the way the world should be run.
By top map-makers I mean the entire map making community (people I've talked to in IRC and so on) and not just random forum trolls. Sorry I didn't clarify. I wanted to mention "top" map makers by meaning our community of mappers who are basically contributing to the entire future of the sc2 custom maps world... And yes it is easy to make the popular = best association because if they have things to news, it means they're making progress to releasing something. Not everything can be applied in this way though.
We'll probably look back on this and laugh...
I do like that releasing new versions of a map overrides the old one now... if we combine this with lazbro's idea of going to the old list except with foldering of maps... sounds awesome!
It's kind of a bummer to be working on my new map and thinking how will I ever get anyone to play this.
Oh and Vexal your map is cool! Bit slow though I found. I love team tower D's; your map is not what I am referring to when i was coughing.
I quit, leaving 4 months of work behind. This game can suck it.